Jan
09

Wednesday Night Open Thread

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Bullpen phones didn’t need fixin’, but MLB went and fixed ‘em anyway. The league and T-Mobile have announced an agreement that eliminates land lines and makes calls to the bullpen a wireless experience. The system will work on a closed network, and it’s only a matter of time before some manager loses his bullpen phone and things go haywire. I will shamelessly admit I’m rooting for that. The docks for these new bullpen phones can be seen here. Apparently some corporation will have to step forward with a sponsorship before the game is improved in a meaningful way, such as expanded replay.

Anyway, here is your open thread for the evening. Neither of the basketball locals are in action, so you’re on your own for entertainment. Talk about whatever you like here. Enjoy.

Categories : Open Thread

164 Comments»

  1. Scully says:

    This seems annoyingly pointless, and you’re right at some point during a game this is going to go haywire and then whomever the manager is will get fined for going off on the league after the game.

    • Jersey Joe says:

      I agree. Plus I feel like the old fashioned telephones (with the cord) were a classic part of the call to the bullpen.

  2. Havok9120 says:

    So, I hope someone else noticed that the post on the HoF included the intermittently seen “Horrendously Stupid” tag. I am not ashamed to say that one highlight of my day was going into that tag’s archive, clicking back a few pages, and then reading some of the older, now-forgotten nonsense.

    There’s some funny stuff in there.

    • Get Phelps Up says:

      Wow, there’s so much gold there but these were my favorites:
      http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....eam-15340/
      http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....and-23385/

      • Jersey Joe says:

        That Cody Ransom one is awesome.

      • Havok9120 says:

        And it’s not even just the articles. The comments sections are fantastic, if for no other reason than they’re chock full of guys who are gone completely or lurk and rarely post (I know you’re here Mondesi…you can’t hide).

        TSJC needs to come back. :(

        • Pat D says:

          Indeed he does. His absence used to leave a gaping hole in my soul, like what happened when Homestar Runner stopped updating. I’ve largely gotten over it, but, still…

          • Havok9120 says:

            Oh. My. God.

            Homestar freaking Runner was the best.

            “But I accept payment only in gold nuggets. Or maybe chicken nuggets….Denver Nuggets?”

            • Pat D says:

              So quotable. I’ll randomly start doing the voices whenever I need to cheer up myself.

              • Dan says:

                You can watch Norte dame get their ass handed to them its pretty funny to me. 0-6 in. Go drunks….errr I mean Irish

                • Pat D says:

                  Fail.

                  And anyway, the funny part is that Kelly’s got one foot out the door so…yea, college football will be dead to me.

                • Havok9120 says:

                  I typed up two responses to your quite lame attempt at harassment, but they all got swallowed by the ether. I’m not sure what you get out of targeting someone who appears to be a pretty decent guy, but in retribution I hope you stub your toe as you get out of bed in the morning.

                  • Pat D says:

                    If that’s Dan Gold, it’s understandable. He’s trolled both me and jjyank repeatedly.

                    If it’s not, then I’m not sure what I did to offend him. Frankly, nor do I care.

                    • Havok9120 says:

                      I just assumed it wasn’t due to the omition of half the usual handle, but if it IS…

                      I hope he stubs ALL his toes. That’ll learn ‘im.

        • RetroRob says:

          I existed back then. In fact, I flipped back a few years and seem to have been around here going back to at least late 2007. I mostly lurked, and when posting it was under a couple different names, before settling under my current handle about eighteen months back.

          • Havok9120 says:

            I honestly have no idea when or how I discovered RAB, let alone when I started commenting regularly.I have no memory of the site going from something I was peripherally aware of to something I check 5 or more times an hour and comment on regularly.

            It seems to have drawn me in and deleted my memory of these events. DON’T YOU SEE??!!?

            WE MUST STOP RAB before it becomes TOO POWERFUL and the Holy Triumvirate RULES US ALL.

            • RetroRob says:

              Yes, I guess that fits on my side. I must have drifted in and out, posted here and there. I thought I showed up in 2009, so I was surprised to find some notes going back to 2007. I think 2009 is when I made RAB a regular stop, and then some point in 2010 when I landed on this handle is when I became a pretty daily poster.

              I do wonder if many of the people from 2009 are still here, but like me under different handles.

      • Jacob says:

        I just noticed that the grumpy old stuart who lives under the tapenzee bridge was lurking back then too!

        • Get Phelps Up says:

          I wonder what he thought of ARod that postseason.

        • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

          If you look around at the threads from back then you’ll also find dalelama hanging around.

          • Jacob says:

            they only pop up in times of weakness. I bet they are fucking boston fans.

            • Havok9120 says:

              You started commenting near the end of last regular season, right? I’m not sure if you lurked before then, but you should have seen some of those guys near the start of the season before the Yanks went on that first tear. It was…painful.

              Meanwhile, we had some screwball insisting he knew stuart a (was it stuart? I can’t remember) personally and that he’s a Mets fan who trolls us for kicks.

              • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

                I don’t know him personally, but I think I was the “Screwball” who said that, and I was (and am) serious.

                Now, several months removed, I can’t think of the source for the life of me, but still. It might even have been Mike.

                • Havok9120 says:

                  If it was, I can’t for the life of me connect your current handle or whatever “RRR” is. Guy who was saying this had a short but handle like a name, and I only called him a screwball because he posted for, like, 3 days and then seemed to disappear. If it was you and you’ve just gone through a lot of handles, then sorry about that. Just seemed odd to me. *shrug*

                • Robinson Tilapia says:

                  Wait……RRR is Rocky Road Redemption, right?

                  • Havok9120 says:

                    Oh CRAP. Yes, yes it is.

                    This all makes so much more sense now.

                    No way was that you that was making that claim under RRR. Unless I’m totally wrong, which is likely. I guess I got you mixed in with one of the redshirts….Hm.

                    Maybe I shall rally the troops and begin the search fir truth! Or, you know, I may just ignore this entire incident.

          • Get Phelps Up says:

            He hasn’t changed one bit.
            http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-720899

      • Dalek Jeter (formerly: Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)) says:

        That Cody Ransom one, as well as the comment section that follows it is priceless.

  3. Pat D says:

    Oh my God. They decide to go with a company that is still dying to be bought out by someone else? Fucking idiots.

  4. JonS says:

    I’m anxiously await the day that the system is jammed or hacked…or claimed to be jammed or hacked preventing a manager from making a change he knew he should have made.

  5. MB923 says:

    Not sure what’s worse, that they’re using T-Mobile, or that it’s pink everywhere

    I really hope it’s only like that on Mother’s Day when they play

  6. trr says:

    Lets look at the Ex-Lax expanded replay!
    Yeah, I could see that happening

  7. mrdbag says:

    Is this thing with Morse going to fucking drag? Can Cashman get this done like any normal Gm when confronted with the perfect player for the situation.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting says:

      Perfect player?
      Horrible defense.
      Horrible baserunning.
      Not durable.

      Morse is a pretty good fit, and probably the best of the realistically remaining options, but he’s hardly the perfect player for any situation.

      Also, GM’s can’t force other GM’s to do their bidding. And every other GM has holes to fill and doesn’t always get the best available player to fill that hole.

    • jjyank says:

      You realize that “force trades” isn’t enabled, yes? It takes two to tango, buddy. The Yankees aren’t the only ones interested in Morse.

  8. Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

    We have no “proof” that Bonds did steroids except for the fact that it was blindingly obvious. But no hard evidence.

    Even so, circumstantial evidence does hold up in court sometimes, at least.

    I like the idea of putting people in, but defining, say, 1995 or so up to around 03? or 04? as the “Steroid Era”, and if you were actually caught you put an asterisk (Gasp! Asterisk!) next to their name.

    Is my definition of the era arbitrary? More or less I guess, but it more or less covers the period people think of when they think of the steroid era.

    Here’s the problem we have: The players who did steroids cheated.

    Yes, they were already great. Yes, I understood why they did it. Maybe I would have done it myself-in fact, probably.

    But the fact of the matter is that they cheated. Whatever the other factors were. All of those other things are true, but cheating is cheating.

    And getting into the HoF is a privilege. It’s not a right. We’re basically not giving these guys any penalty at all for cheating. Getting into the HoF with an asterisk may not be a big deal, but at least it’s something.

    (And if it’s discovered you did steroids AFTER you got in the HoF? You got lucky. Mantle took amphetamines. But that doesn’t mean that other cheaters should just not get in trouble.)

    • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

      …I just realized, the first section of my comments in blockquotes is me quoting myself.

      I feel smart today, guys.

    • jjyank says:

      I dunno, maybe I’ve just grown steel-plated skin to the whole thing by now, but I really just don’t care. Older players took amphetamines, guys used to scratch or spit on the ball, and that list goes on. If the MLB really wanted to clamp down on it all and send a message, it should have happened decades before they actually did.

      It happened. I wish it didn’t, but it’s hardly the first time players tried to get an edge. Just vote the generational greats in, already. In my eyes, it’s bad enough the all time hits leader isn’t in because he had a gambling problem, let’s not keep the all time home runs leader out too. As far as I’m concerned, it’s not a church or a monument to impecable character. The best players who hold all the records and who defined a generation of talent should be in the Hall.

      That said, I hope the MLB does everything it can to prevent athletes getting any kind of unfair edge over the competition. But the fact of the matter is that we’ll never know how widespread it all was. If Barry Bonds hit a ton of homers off of pitchers who also juiced, isn’t that the same playing field anyway? Ditto Roger Clemens striking out juicing hitters. We’ll never know what the ratio and the dynamic really is. All we do know is the numbers.

      • Steve (different one) says:

        It’s hard for me to get worked up about keeping these guys out of the HoF for juicing* on the same day we all sit around trying to figure out how to trade for Mike Morse…

        * I reserve the right to be appalled by PEDs when it involves a Red Sox player

    • Get Phelps Up says:

      I don’t like how the Hall contradicts itself by leaving out Pete Rose for gambling and Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc. for PEDs when Ty Cobb who was a racist and stabbed a guy is in, and so is Gaylord Perry who admitted to using an illegal spitball. Same with Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle who used amphetamines. If some “cheaters” already got in, however they did it, then they all should get in.

      It is after all the Hall of FAME and some of the most famous baseball players in the past 50 years are being excluded.

  9. MannyGeee says:

    Just posted this in the HoF post, but I am so proud of myself for getting all “You go GURL” on the writers that I thought I’d repost here…

    Dear baseball writers and voters for the Hall of Fame Inductee guys:

    Go fuck yourselves, you ingdignant asshats. You know what else happened? Slavery, the Holocaust, 9/11, Columbine, and Disco. You know how I know that? Because history books tell us that they did. You know how bad all that stuff is? WORSE THAN STEROIDS!!!! But the rest of humanity doesn’t get the choice on what parts of history they choose to remember and which points they choose to ignore. Congratulations on sticking your heads in the sand about the past two decades of your sport. Jerks offs.

    • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

      Tell us how you really feel, MannyGee.

    • Are you telling me that I’m not the sole arbiter of how baseball history will be interpreted by generations yet to come? Blasphemy!

    • Jacob says:

      Holy shit Manny

    • Jacob says:

      You know what, before I just started thinking about this(do to this post) I thought “You did roids, fuck you no HOF” but now I realize that it is not fair because they were still the best players, the hall is for the best players. Besides how many players that could have or are suspected of taking steroids, actually were not going to make the hall anyway? Bonds and Clemens were already HOFer’s. Thank you Manny for making me realize.

      • jjyank says:

        Plus, as I said above, it’s not like this is the first group of players that tried to get an edge. And if steroids was really so rampant during that era, how uneven was the playing field really? Were Bonds and Clemens the only ones on steroids? If so, fuck you, no HOF. But that’s clearly not the case. We’ll never really know how even or uneven the playing field really was. What we do know, is that they had HOF worthy careers.

        • Get Phelps Up says:

          I tend to agree. You’re in essence punishing the players for playing in an era where I bet at LEAST 40% of players were also on steroids. This is probably a bit extreme but it’s like discounting what Babe Ruth did because he played in an era where he wound never see a slider or a splitter, or get LOOGY’d. He excelled in his era against similar competition and these guys also excelled in their era against similar competition.

          • Jacob says:

            And with Ruth guys had never had anything close to that type of power before, he had more home runs than whole teams WHOLE LEAGUES! It was like little league for him, pitchers had no idea how to pitch him. Imagine how unfair they thought it was.

          • jjyank says:

            Yeah that, and guys like Ruth and Gehrig never had to play against the best Black, Latino, or Asian players either. It’s all relative.

        • Jacob says:

          Agreed!

    • MannyGeee says:

      So I count a couple chuckles, a few slowclaps, and a few of you want to 5950 me. I’d say a job well done. well done indeed.

  10. Drew says:

    You say none of the local teams are playing but I’m currently watching a great matchup of my alma mater St. John’s vs Rutgers at MSG. Show some love for the local college teams.

    • Havok9120 says:

      ‘Cuse vs Providence on the Big East Network and ESPN3!

      Mike and college basketball don’t mix well from what I can tell.

  11. long ron daniels says:

    ohhhh now momma’s big, big legs done made me sick. daddy ain’t never gon’ want no action.. done get that sweat all about his self.

    I would stay and write more but I desperately need to go find a toilet bowl, for I have a horrible case of gas.

    let’s go baseball! do it!

  12. Mike Myers says:

    These writers are the freakin wost. Its like they compare everyone who played in the 90s to their childhood favorite player who could do no wrong. Sorry not everyone is hank aaron. 3000 hits an no roids…still doesnt get in. Best hitting catcher EVER still doesnt get in.

    something needs to change. anyone who didnt vote for any player should be booted from the process.

  13. Jacob says:

    SO on the brightside, 2K announced they are bringing back 2K and march 5th is the date for 2K13. I know 2K sucks but for me it is No baseball sim<sucky baseball sim. Everyday of the week.

    • Havok9120 says:

      That’s quite good news. It was a shame having a major platform without a baseball game.

      • Jacob says:

        Yes I was very angry. Like I said I would rather have some form of new baseball game than none at all, and maybe 2K starts fixing some shit. Who knows.

        • Havok9120 says:

          The baseball game I’ve always played is Out of the Park Baseball. My gaming tendencies go toward Grand Strategy more than anything else, and those games tend to look about as exciting as an almanac to begin with, so OotP is definitely more my style than the console baseball games.

          • Pat D says:

            I’ve commented about OOTP before. They lost me with their last incarnation where just about every infielder on the Yankees suffered a serious injury within 2 weeks. They really had the injury meter turned up way too high.

            • Havok9120 says:

              Yeah, I noticed that with 2012. It was…weird. I mean, I get that the Yanks are old and more prone to injury, but something they did to the last iteration took that way too far.

              Still a lot of fun, though. A lot of different ways to play it.

          • Robinson Tilapia says:

            I’d love to play a “strategy” game in which I was able to be manager and GM without having to, say, set the price for concessions.

            • Havok9120 says:

              Heh. Yeah. OotP has started making some inroads in streamlining and automation, but they’ve got a ways to go. It’s POSSIBLE to automate pretty much anything you want, but the controls for doing so are a bit…involved.

              Paradox Interactive eventually figured out how to make historical grand strategy games accessible to the mainstream. Took them almost a decade and 5 or 6 games, but they did it. Someone will eventually figure it out for GM simulators.

              • Robinson Tilapia says:

                I’ll get on my old school soapbox again and say that I really would play the fuck out of a game that was really statistically deep and just allowed me to manage the game without figuring out the button combinations to perform a double steal.

  14. Sean A says:

    Its no longer the Hall of Fame. Its the Hall of Statistical accomplishment. 300 wins 3000 hits 500 HR etc etc… Steroids through it all in a twist though. Bonds, Clemens A-Rod should all be in the hall based on what they done. Bonds for his hr record pursuits and multiple MVPS. Clemens for 86, his 20 strikeout games. Cy Youngs the fued with Piazza. thats what fame is.

    • Jacob says:

      Well you see, uh, well, uhm, with out the stats, uhm, anyone could kind of uhm, get in.

    • Pat D says:

      You foolish fool. Without the stats, we’d have no idea what player is better than another! Because without the stats, we wouldn’t have all those wonderful television analysts cherry-picking stats to tell us who the best players are!

  15. Pat D says:

    This clip just came to my mind for some reason. Perhaps it describes my current feeling toward the BBWAA? I don’t know. Enjoy!

    warning: strong language

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyOPCWfB2XM

  16. Vern Sneaker says:

    MLB discovers the cell phone! Gives me new hope for instant replay probably no later than 2026.

    • RetroRob says:

      They were debating upgrading to FAX machines, or maybe even hand-held pagers, but leapfrogged all the way to 1987 by embracing cell phone. Some teams are debating allowing their employeed to join CompuServe or Prodigy. Decision expected soon.

    • MannyGeee says:

      There’s no sponsorship money in instant replay. Pink T-Mobile phones however…

  17. Robinson Tilapia says:

    I was on an elliptical when Tom Verducci’s smug fucking face came on TV, proud of not voting for Bonds or Clemens. I began swinging blindly in the air, hoping for my fist to connect with the mounted flatscreen and his stupid head.

    Let the players vote. CC was on Colin Cowhird this morning, and he would have let Cody Ransom in.

  18. Hoss says:

    None of the “Baseball Writers of America” had the cajones to blow the lid on Selig and the owners who were complicit in the “Steroid Era.”

    Baseball needed something to get back in the public’s attention after the strike, and big bodies whacking record numbers of homers did the trick. There was no way Selig or the owners would do the right thing and intervene when steroid use was lining their pockets.

    Why no articles or books on that, but the players get crucified?

    • Dalek Jeter (formerly: Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)) says:

      You don’t think the BWAA was just as complicit? They spend hours in the locker room after the game, travel with the team most of the year, talk to players on and off the record all the time. To truly “blow the lid” off the thing they’d either have to admit that they knew it was going on at the time and did nothing about it, OR admit that they had no idea that it was going on right under their noses. I was the sports editor of my college’s paper a few years ago, and since it was a community college, nobody wanted to cover the teams. I was there an hour before every practice, an hour after every practice, and hours before and after every game. I knew all the players and coaches by their first names, I knew where they were going after games and where they were coming from. I knew a number of them smoked pot, and never wrote anything about it, because you know, none of my business. To go back to the school and write an editorial about it now would make me look bad/complicit in it.

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        Dalek-ROID.

      • Pat D says:

        Tom Boswell essentially accused Jose Canseco of doing ‘roids right from the start.

        There was also this article from a couple of years ago, which I’ve already linked to today, but will again:
        http://www.wezen-ball.com/2010.....hakeq.html

        There is also a follow up which goes into the original story.

        • RetroRob says:

          Canseco and McGwire were known as the “Roid Brothers” back in the 1980s. Steroids have been part of the discussion for at least a quarter-century. Yet the overwhelming majority of reporters ignored it, and indeed promoted the culture.

        • Hoss says:

          Thanks. Were there some other (later banned) substances that predated the steroids that dominated the ’90s?

      • Hoss says:

        “To truly “blow the lid” off the thing they’d either have to admit that they knew it was going on at the time and did nothing about it, OR admit that they had no idea that it was going on right under their noses.”

        Good point, Dalek. Stupidity or complicity, that is the question.

  19. Dalek Jeter (formerly: Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)) says:

    “Run prevention isn’t the most important thing in pitching.” Mitch Williams. Just when I thought I couldn’t think less of his intelligence.

    • Pat D says:

      You just sent me into a five minute coughing fit with that one. I think, for the sake of baseball fans everywhere, we as a site should rise as one and slay Mitch Williams. Then put his head up on a spike somewhere it can be seen by all so they know not to repeat his mistakes.

  20. Pat D says:

    Just to shoehorn in both one more wrestling reference and one more potshot at the BBWAA, I think that when Craig Biggio gets elected next year, he should totally turn heel and give the Hulk Hogan Bash at the Beach promo, but directed at the BBWAA instead of the fans.

    • Robinson Tilapia says:

      ….or the old Rikishi “I did for the Rock” heel turn.

      • Pat D says:

        Um……in the pantheon of heel turns, that’s way down there.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          I’m a huge fan of Lex Luger’s “C’mon Ricky, let’s go….” heel turn on Steamboat in the early 90′s, as well as Ronnie Garvin turning on Dusty Rhodes and rubbing Gary Hart’s money all over his chest.

          Hogan was a great turn at the time, and that was legit garbage being thrown in the ring. There was legit fear for their safety.

          • Pat D says:

            Hogan’s heel turn has to be the best ever.

            The other ones that have always stuck with me as being most effective:
            *Barry Windham turning on Lex Luger to join the Four Horsemen.
            *The Mega-Powers explode!
            *Terry Funk destroying Ric Flair after the Flair/Steamboat feud.
            *Shawn Michaels throwing Marty Jannetty through the Barber Shop window. (Bobby Heenan: “Jannetty tried to dive through the window to escape!)
            *Jake “The Snake” Roberts turning on The Ultimate Warrior to align with The Undertaker. (those promos were really creepy if you were only 10 years old)
            *Bret Hart’s turn in 1997, becoming the anti-U.S., pro-Canada guy.
            *The Rock joining The Corporation.
            *The Undertaker making JR kiss Vince’s ass.
            *Eddie Guerrero turns on Rey Mysterio in 2005.
            *Mick Foley becomes anti-ECW, pro-WWE, and aligns with Edge in 2006.
            *CM Punk’s first heel turn against Jeff Hardy.
            *Matt Hardy turning on Jeff Hardy with that chair shot.

            There are probably some others I’m forgetting.

            • Pat D says:

              Oh, duh. Forgot both the Freebirds and Chris Adams when they turned on the Von Erichs.

            • Robinson Tilapia says:

              The Funk turn was always a favorite just because it was a complete surprise. Funk wasn’t even wrestling full time in the states at the time.

              The real question here would be what was the last great surprise turn in a major fed. Have to do some thinking there.

              • Pat D says:

                Shawn Michaels superkicking Hulk Hogan? Batista destroying Rey Mysterio?

                • Robinson Tilapia says:

                  Michaels superkicking Hogan was absolutely what I came up with overnight. Yup.

                  Worst?

                  Any time they tried to turn Austin in the WWE. Fucking Tatanka. Eugene.

                  • Pat D says:

                    Yea, 2001 with Austin as a heel just didn’t work. It didn’t help that the Invasion storyline was shit, but that’s another story. I remember the Tatanka one in 1994 being weak. Eugene could have worked if they’d done something where he suddenly became smart and said he acted dumb to get people’s sympathy.

                    For the Michaels turn on Hogan, I was watching that night with a group of friends. One of them, who can’t stand Hogan, remarked as they were celebrating, “So they did the same ending to the show two weeks in a row?” I quickly gathered what he meant, said, “Wait a sec…” and just as I did Michaels nailed Hogan. We went nuts.

                    This of course led to one of the best moments they ever did when Michaels imitated Hogan on what was supposed to be the Larry King show.

  21. Vern Sneaker says:

    HOF talent + HOF stats = HOF– no matter the behavior (violent felonies excepted).

    Non-HOF talent = no HOF no matter what the stats. Use the eye test: not Palmiero, not Sosa, yes to Clemons, Bonds, Rose, McGwire, Piazza, Biggio.

    • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

      “The eye test” doesn’t really mean much, though. If you were to ask me, without knowing a thing about him, if Mariano Rivera was a HOFer, I would say with full sincerity that I had absolutely no idea.

      We’re talking about the big names getting in, but Sosa hit 600+ HRs. That’s a pretty damn big deal.

      • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

        …And if I knew nothing about Mo except that he was a reliever I’d say no, just because of the sheer probability of a reliever making the HOF.

  22. Pat D says:

    OK, yea, Mitch Williams needs to be killed. I go down for a bowl of cereal and turn on MLBN. First mistake. They’re talking about Jack Morris. Mitch asks incredulously, “When did ERA become more important than wins? I’ll tell you when. It’s when these Harvard and Yale types started taking over front offices and brought ERA and all their sabermetrics into it.”

    Now that may not be quite exact, but it’s pretty much what he said. He implied ERA was a sabermetric.

    In Rob Neyer’s Big Book of Baseball Blunders, he devoted a chapter to when the Royals signed Mark Davis and Storm Davis after 1989. Storm was coming off a season where he won 19 games, but threw only 169.1 innings and had a 4.36 ERA (85 ERA+). The Royals pitching coach was asked about this and answered, “We don’t want pitchers with good ERA’s. We want pitchers with wins.” Neyer analogized this to a publicly traded company’s CEO saying, “We don’t care about making a profit. We care about raising our stock price.” (Isn’t that what happened a few years ago?) Anyway, it’s a matter of mistaking the product (the wins) with the process (the other stats and factors). The Royals didn’t seem to realize that Davis won all those games because the 1989 A’s had probably the best lineup and the best bullpen in the game. Lots of pitchers could have won 19 games! Sure enough, in his two years with Kansas City, Storm went 10-19 with an ERA close to 5 and got banished to the bullpen.

    Long story short, Mitch Williams is a stupid motherfucking idiot.

  23. Pistol Pete says:

    I love Jack Morris, don’t quite think he’s a hall of farmer but in a big game I want him on the mound. Some guys, Schilling Wells El Duque elevated their games the bigger the game. Agree with your comments about ERA and I just listened to Mitch Williams and he is an idiot but I don’t like using Morris as an example because I liked him so much for his ability to win huge games.

  24. Andy Pettitte's Fibula says:

    Just finished the 4th season of Dexter. What an amazing show. That had to be one of the greatest seasons of a drama ever IMO.

  25. endlessjose says:

    Jack Morris numbers aren’t great but how many pitchers were way better than him.He was the best pitcher of his era.

    The opposite is Curt Schilling.He has great stats but I could name over 8 pitchers better than him in his era.You have to look at picthers in their era and Jack Morris was one of the top 5 best picther of the 80′s maybe higher.

    • Pat D says:

      I don’t want to get into a debate that will go nowhere, because you’re so wrong. There were a bunch of pitchers from the same era better than Jack morris. And again, remember, I fucking hate Curt Schilling and I always liked Jack Morris.

      Oh, and now that I re-read your comment, can you tell me how Morris was both “the best pitcher of his era” and “one of the top 5 best picther (sic) of the 80′s maybe higher?”

      • Andy Pettitte's Fibula says:

        Morris isn’t even close to a HOFer. 3.90 ERA, 3.94 FIP, 95 ERA minus.

        Ron Guidry is a better candidate that Morris.

        • RetroRob says:

          That’s true. And if Guidry was elected to the HOF, his #49 being retired would actually make sense.

          Gator remains one of my all-time favorite Yankees, yet they were too aggresive in retiring his number. Give him a day. Give him a plaque. Just save the retirement of numbers for a very, very select few. The Jeter, Rivera class.

  26. Now Batting says:

    Sorry to keep bringing it up, but I think everybody Is looking at the trees and missing the forest. Only two men in the then 122 year history of Major League Baseball ever reached the 60 home run plateau. One is arguably the greatest player of all time and the other a shy ball player out of Fargo. Perhaps some of you are too young or time has made you forget, but 61 was the greatest and most cherished record in American Sports.

    Two players blew past that with 70 and 66 home runs a piece. They combined for 3 more years with 64+ home runs. A few years later, a suddenly revitalized Barry Bonds blasted 73 home runs in the first of four MVP seasons covering his age 36-39 seasons. All three of these men are known steroid users. Every single statistic or survey is ancillary to this, our reality. Letting them and other steroid users in sends a message that its ok. That even if you use and vastly benefit from PEDs, if your numbers are good enough we will still enshrine you in baseball immortality with the greatest players of all time.

    As to refute the expected mention of Biggio and perhaps Piazza, each of them received enough votes this year to almost ensure their inclusion in the ensuing years. Lots of great players don’t make it in on the first try.

  27. endlessjose says:

    Who else your taking.Maybe Ryan,Clemens,Valenzuela and maybe Stewart but really Morris won the most games and didn’t pitch for his baseball ERA,he just won the games which is more important.

    There’s no way you don’t think of Morris as the best picther of his era espcially in the big game.He won four rings.

    • Dalek Jeter (formerly: Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)) says:

      Pitchers w/ better ERA than Morris from 1980-1990:
      Ryan, Clemens, Stieb, Blyleven, Gooden, Viola, Valenzula

      Pitchers w/ a better FIP than Morris from 1980-1990 w/ at least 1500IP in the decade: 40, that’s right, there are 40 pitchers who averaged at least 150IP per season in the decade who had a better Fielding Independent Pitching than Morris.

      Pitchers who struck out more batters per 9 innings, w/ 1500IP from 1980-1990: 18

      I’m sorry, there is literally no way I look at the numbers and say that Morris was anything but the winningest pitcher of the 1980s. Guess what? Wins aren’t that important. Unless we’re talking something monumental like 300+ Wins are probably the least important thing while talking about a pitcher. Good example: in 2005 Randy Johnson won 15 games with the Yankees but pitched to like a 5 ERA. Meanwhile Roger Clemens pitched to a 1.87 ERA and only won 13 games. Who was the better pitcher that year?

      • Dalek Jeter (formerly: Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)) says:

        Now don’t get me wrong, Morris was VERY GOOD pitcher. However this is the Hall of Fame, a place for all time GREATS not the hall of very good, and if Jack Morris gets in before Clemens, Bonds, and Maddux it will be a travesty. Hell I think Pedro is more deserving of a Hall of Fame bid than Morris, and I loathe that man more than any player, like ever.

        • Andy Pettitte's Fibula says:

          Pedro Martinez and Jack Morris shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence . Love him or hate him, Pedro is a sure fire first ballot HOFer. 2.93 ERA, 2.91 FIP, 89.4 WAR, 67 ERA-, 89.4 WAR…his stats are ridiculous.

    • Pat D says:

      While Morris pitched very well in the 1984 and 1991 postseasons, he was beyond terrible in 1992, doing basically nothing to earn that ring. And his 4th ring in 1993? Yea, he didn’t even pitch in that postseason following his 7-12, 6.19, not even 6 innings per start regular season. He also didn’t pitch well in the 1987 ALCS.

      Just to give you a starting point, here are some guys who had significant career overlap with Morris who have better WAR numbers: Roger Clemens, Bert Blyleven, Nolan Ryan, Bret Saberhagen, Dave Stieb, Orel Hershiser, Mark Langston, Jimmy Key, Ron Guidry, Dwight Gooden, Dennis Martinez and Frank Viola. And I left out a bunch of guys who have better WAR than Morris, but whose best years came when Morris didn’t pitch, like Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, Rick Reuschel, David Cone, Tommy John, Frank Tanana, and even Steve Carlton and Tom Seaver.

      “didn’t pitch for his baseball ERA, he just won the games which is more important.”

      It’s a hell of a lot easier to win games when your ERA is low. That way you’re not worrying about your offense and your bullpen to bail you out.

  28. MannyGeee says:

    Jose Canseco should be in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, I said it.

    HE was dominant for a small chunk of time there… better than good or very good, EPIC. And if we are talking about history of the game, he was amongst the first to blow the whistle on this horrible evil demon of steroids that the writers are so against right now and using as a soapbox, so he (in theory) would be a hero for their plight.

    • The Doctor (formerly known as G formerly known as Matt Smith fornerly known as David Tennant formerly known as etc) says:

      A guy with a career 45 fWAR shouldn’t touch the Hall. I know people like to use the Koufax argument for guys like that, but he was worth 57.3 fWAR in only 12 seasons. His peak was short but absolutely brilliant, reaching 10.6 at one point. Canseco barely reached half of that and had a much longer career. This is a pretty poor argument.

  29. King of Fruitless Hypotheticals says:

    Had to wait for Ozzie, Cox, Lasorda, Russo to leave the league to keep cell phones from being slung out of the dugout across the field…

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