Monday Night Open Thread

2014 Payroll Breakdown: Part Five
Details of arbitrator Fredric Horowitz's ruling against A-Rod

As expected, Alex Rodriguez‘s camp filed a suit with a federal court today regarding his 162-game suspension. Arbitrator Fredric Horowitz’s ruling has been unsealed as part of the suit — you can read the whole thing right here (PDF link) — which was filed against both MLB and the players’ union. They need to show the MLBPA didn’t do enough to help Rodriguez to get this thing off the ground. The Earth has officially been scorched.

As you know by now, former Biogenesis chief Anthony Bosch appeared on 60 Minutes last night to discuss the scandal. Bud Selig and MLB COO Rob Manfred were on as well. There wasn’t a great deal of investigative reporting done and they missed a golden opportunity to ask Bosch why he changed his story after agreeing to cooperate with MLB. There were a few softball questions about the “integrity of the game” and stuff like that. Kinda silly. I did enjoy watching MLB’s chief witness, who they’ve sunk seven figures into between legal fees and personal security and all that, insinuate pretty much every player is doing PEDs on national television. That was great. Otherwise everyone involved comes out of the segment looking like a slimeball.

Anyway, here is tonight’s open thread. The Knicks are the only local team playing tonight, so I guess you’re on your own for entertainment. Talk about the 60 Minutes piece, the Knicks, or anything else here. Go nuts.

2014 Payroll Breakdown: Part Five
Details of arbitrator Fredric Horowitz's ruling against A-Rod
  • Short Porch

    If Bosch is telling the truth, that everyone in baseball is cheating, shouldn’t we all find something better to do with our lives? How would it not be a complete farce?

    • Marcus

      Or perhaps everyone needs to stop and think why they watch baseball: it’s fun to watch grown men hit balls really far and/or throw balls really hard.

      • Short Porch

        Freakishly oversized men with tiny balls?

    • Jorge Steinbrenner

      You’d pretty stop watching every sport, then.

      • Short Porch

        Bingo! I got a boy 12. Great athlete. Biggest strongest in his grade. Football? If you get your jollies watching people’s brains and bodies destroyed. Baseball? A complete charade if Bosch’s (or Canseco’s) claim is true.

        Sports should be about conditioning and character, not chemicals and cheating. Disgusting that we choose to look the other way, or rather continue to watch things that ought to be abhorent to our values. If we believe in sportsmanship and fair play, we must learn to turn our backs on both the NFL and MLB as corrupt institutions, or we are just complicit.

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

          Or realize that they’re entertainment and the idea that anyone ever looked at them as anything more than that means that we’re stupid.

  • forensic

    Am I the only one having issues with some pages here, mainly the home page? The stuff from the sidebar is displaying at the bottom of the page, only 2-3 posts show up, and the pages direct to odd places when you click on the comment numbers.

    • forensic

      Well, part of it has been fixed now. That’s a step, at least.

      Thanks Mike/Jay/whoever, if you guys did anything.

  • mike c

    it’s amazing the support a-fraud gets on this site

    • Marcus

      It’s amazing to me how much mental effort people spend being mad at A-Rod. You can simultaneously not like A-Rod while also not talking about how you don’t like him.

      • Mandy Stankiewicz


  • forensic

    John Flaherty:

    “No chance Derek Jeter would be willing to bat 8th or 9th, even if it helps the team. Derek Jeter, as we all know, is all about the team, but there’s no way he’d be fine with batting there.”

    Huh? Way to completely contradict yourself there, John.

    • RetroRob

      If the first sentence was removed it would make more sense.

      • forensic

        Even just the second sentence contradicts itself. He’s all about the team, but he won’t do something that is about helping the team?

        • nsalem

          How about Curry stating that Nunez and Johnson as a platoon should come close to a-Rods production as a 3B platoon.

          • forensic

            Yeah, I’d much rather have A-Rod out there. But, I’d also prefer this platoon to something involving Reynolds or Young.

            • BamBamMusings

              It is possible. Did you see him move around on the bases last year?

              • nsalem

                He was coming of hip surgery and was movinig a bit better as time progressed.
                Who knows how he would have been this year?

            • nsalem

              That’s true. I’m starting to think Reynolds may not get an MLB offer unless he is willing to take a huge salary cut from the 6 million he made last year. Don’t know what’s worse the uncertainty of Kelly Johnson with only 16 innings experience at 3B or the below average defensive play we can expect from Reynolds. I don’t think Nunez will ever be near average defensively and he hasn’t been offensively. I think this will be his last shot with the Yankee’s. Looking at Sizemore’s numbers defensively at 3b does not inspire confidence. Thought Adams did a decent job defensively he made the plays and only committed one error. I think he did make a couple of bad mental errors in one game in June but I can’t remember what it was. Disappointed they he didn’t stick and at least get a shot in ST.

          • Deep Thoughts

            I assume he means they will approach suspended A-Rod’s production.

            • Need Pitching & Hitting


              Nunez might be worse.

              • forensic

                For some reason, I still have a completely baseless and irrational belief that Nunez could become a useful player.

                • nsalem

                  Upon first seeing him I thought that this was the Nunez ceiling


                  which would have been very nice.

                • Need Pitching & Hitting

                  He actually looked OK in limited time at third last year.

                  I just don’t trust him at all though.

                  • nsalem

                    30 chances 2 errors. Don’t think it says much either way. Its seems he does have streaks where he does have it figured out but inevitably regresses back to his old self. This is how Ifeel both offensively and defensively. Sort of how I felt about Hughes. I think most people here do root harder came up through the org. We want them to succeed.

              • nsalem

                I think Deep Thoughts was suggesting less than zero.

    • Kenny

      Well, I think we shouldn’t push the logic button too much on this. Hell, probably shouldn’t push it too much on a lot that we say: because human life is very complicated.

      Jeter has always seemed pretty clearly a team-oriented guy. However, he has also put together a stellar career of which he is justifiably proud. For such a guy, to bat 8th or 9th is a humiliation. We may all have analogues to this in our own lives, some “bridge too far,” where the embarrassment might be too much to take.

      Every person probably has his price in pride, that step too far that might lead him to hesitate to act in the responsible manner that had always characterized him. It was probably the fear of some similar fate, some public lessening in his status, that led Dimag to retire at the end of 1951. Sure, we can say, Well, there you go! Great guy. He didn’t hang around as a dead weight. Etc.

      But Dimag’s 1951 season was magnificent compared to Jeter’s 2013.

      • Deep Thoughts

        Eh. This is just media monkeys howling and scribbling with hot-stove speculation until Spring Training begins. I agree with most of what you say, but it will be Jeter’s health and performance that dictate where and if he bats in the lineup.* Surely Jeter remembers and wishes to avoid ugly incidents like Posada’s tantrum against the Sox, or Bernie’s last full season. Even if dropping down in the order jeopardizes his chances to catch Honus Wagner and collect 3500 hits.

        *And whether or not we trade Gardner I guess.

        • forensic

          but it will be Jeter’s health and performance that dictate where and if he bats in the lineup

          I don’t totally agree with this, though this is how it should be determined. I think no matter his performance (if he’s healthy and out there) he’ll be batting 2nd. I don’t see Girardi and the organization having the guts to ‘confront’ Jeter if he’s not performing and drop him to the bottom of the order. This would be a WAY bigger deal than dropping Posada.

          • Deep Thoughts

            I hear ya. Like I said, let’s see how he’s swinging the bat and how he’s moving around the bases and in the field in late March.

  • Ken

    I’m for A-Rod because I think he has been railroaded. The 60 Minutes show proves it. Selig could show up there, but not at the hearing and face A-Rod? Bosch lied and then changed his mind and agreed that A-Rod had used drugs. Which is the truth? The whole effort MLB made to obtain evidence stinks to high heaven. Selig will go down as bad for baseball.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting

      So you believe the hundreds of text messages to a drug dealer were for nutritional advice defense?

      • steve (different one)

        You can believe A-Rod is both guilty and being railroaded.

        • Need Pitching & Hitting

          To me, being railroaded means somebody innocent being falsely accused/convicted.

          • steve (different one)

            OK, that is not the definition of railroaded I would use. Under your definition, I would agree with you.

            I would define railroaded as being treated unfairly, being unnecessarily made an example of.

            I believe that Alex is guilty, but his suspension of 211 games was arbitrary and without precedent.

            Here it is:

            Use of PEDs: 1st offense 50 games for everyone else, XX games for A-Rod
            Obstruction of the investigation: 0 games for Melky Cabrera, XX games for A-Rod
            Multiple Infractions: 50 games for Manny Ramirez, XX games for A-Rod
            Lying to MLB: 15(?) games for Ryan Braun, XX games for A-Rod

            Just show me how you got to 211 games and ground it in some sort of precedent. Is that too much to ask??

            No one here would be crying for A-Rod if he got 50 games, or probably even 100 games.

            But you can’t give the ONLY guy who has ever tested positive TWICE (Manny) two 50 game suspensions even when the rules clearly call for 100 games on the second offense, and then argue that the rules aren’t arbitrary. It’s nonsense.

            • Need Pitching & Hitting

              I agree it was somewhat arbitrary.
              But it was also a somewhat different offense/allegation, which would/should require a somewhat different punishment.
              To me, proving multiple uses of multiple banned substances over multiple years should garner a much larger suspension.
              Testing positive twice only proves 2 uses. (though I do think Manny getting his suspension reduced was ridiculous, and I’m sure he there was a lot more than just 2 uses)

              That said, I think the rationale given for the length of suspension by the arbitrator rather stretches the ambiguities for non-analytic positives in the current JDA.

              • steve (different one)

                In a strange way, the reduction of A-Rod’s punishment almost makes it worse in terms of “justice”.

                If he was guilty, why reduce it from 211 to 162? Basically they are just making sh*t up as they go…

                I also don’t really agree with the whole “stacking” of punishments. That implies everyone else who has been caught was caught the very FIRST time they used PEDS!! Is that believable? Of course not.

                As long we we’re using “alternate” methods of proof, why wasn’t Braun treated as a multiple time offender?

                Don’t get me wrong, A-Rod has brought most of this upon himself He’s likely guilty, and almost certainly a liar. I am simply uncomfortable with way the suspensions were handed down, I would prefer it if they were at least somehow grounded in the punishments that were agreed upon in advance.

                • Need Pitching & Hitting

                  It’s definitely not believable, but if they don’t have actual proof of multiple violations, what can they do?

                  I’m not sure what evidence they had against Braun.
                  Did they have proof that he used multiple substances? It seems like a large part of the basis for the ARod suspension was that they had him on 3 different banned substances, essentially netting 3 different first time offenses (though the support for this treatment in the JDA is dubious), with a little extra thrown in for the obstruction and extent of usage.

                  • BamBamMusings

                    Doesn’t matter what Braun got because it was plea-barganed.

            • Deep Thoughts

              Exactly. Spot on.

              And for the MLBPA to cop out and hide behind “respecting the process” is shameful. As you point out, and Wendy Thurm as well, if the commissioner can dole out whatever he wishes, then 50-100-Life is meaningless, and the CBA/JDA is undermined. But this new president is failing to stand up for Alex, first and foremost because he is unpopular with his colleagues, and secondarily because he is far from blameless.

              Weiner felt A-Rod realistically deserved a first-timer’s 50 games but supported Alex because he couldn’t understand the justification for 211. That guy is showing more brass from the grave than Clark is from this side of the ground.

            • BamBamMusings

              Once again, here come the lawyers. He was caught using MULTIPLE substances across MULTIPLE seasons. Where’s that precedent?

              • steve (different one)

                The precedent that MLB has set was two 50 games suspensions for Manny Ramirez.

                • Need Pitching & Hitting

                  That was for testing positive twice, not for using at least 3 different banned substances over at least 3 different seasons.

                  • steve (different one)

                    ok, I just read the link Mike just posted. I guess that was what you were trying to say about clear evidence of 3 different infractions.

                    I would not have thought that is the way the CBA/JDA was supposed to work, but I guess this is the new precedent.

                    Thanks for 2009, Alex!

                • BamBamMusings

                  OK lets take Manny. Two seasons of use = 100 games for many. (suspended twice) AROD 3 seasons of use, with multiple different drugs (no precedent there) + obstructing investigation = 162. Math seems about right..

              • radnom

                Seriously. The JDA is flexible enough to allow for different penalties between a single failed test and three years evidence of constant usage. An arbiter agreed. The continued blind defense of Arod in light of all the evidence being out there is getting silly.

                • Lets go Yankees

                  Theres pretty much a handful of the same talking points the A-Rod apologists keep harping on. No matter what the new evidence is, they’ll just keep coming back to the same jargon. Rather comical wtching them go down with the ship.

                  • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

                    Yeah, laugh it up, asshole.

        • The Yankee Asterisk

          you can also believe A-Rod has done drugs every season since high school. The Punishment is now catching upto him.

        • murakami


          But this is apparently too complex.

      • Jorge Steinbrenner

        He bought some kohlrabi at Whole Foods and had no clue what to do with it. Yes.

        • BamBamMusings

          Ah and he was paying an alleged drug dealer hundreds of thousands of dollars for Gummy bear vitamin consultations. Hmm, where do I get me these magical Gummies?

  • Is it just me or…

    Did Bosch give the tell tale signs of someone who was less than credible during the interview? It seemed like everytime he was asked a direct question, he closed his eyes or looked away when he started talking…

    Look I’m no A-Rod apoligist. I think the guys a liar, a cheat, a fraud, but to line up (a now MLB paid) Tony Bosch a day after the ruling, and then to have Selig come on to after not facing A-Rod’s team during the arbitration hearin. It just tells me that these guys are all BS, all culpable, and it’s actually shameful that Bud gets a pat on the back, and his legacy will be that he took on PEDs, when he was making money off them for decades…

    • Marcus

      I’d love for a Jim Gray-type reporter to ask Selig a pointed question about paying off Bosch to get A-Rod. I’d love to hear a unrehearsed answer to why we think Bosch should be credible if it took money to change his story.

      • jim p

        To change his story AND forge hundreds of emails and text messages. And implicate another dozen guys who didn’t dispute the charges. Was it MLB or Bosch who bribed/coerced them to accept the penalties when they were innocent?

        Plus, I hate that Selig has put himself in the record books as hitting more homers than Mantle, Griffey, Killebrew, Thome and the rest. That’s just cheating!

        • Need Pitching & Hitting

          It’s not that Bosch is credible. It’s that Bosch + everything else is a lot more credible than ARod getting nutritional advice from a drug dealer for $12K/month.

    • Tom K

      This isn’t pro wrestling, where you need to have a good guy and a bad guy. Both A-Rod and Selig are slime balls. I don’t think there is really much to dispute.

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

        You A-Rod apologist, you.

      • Is it just me or…


        My point is, how are Bud and Bosch penalized here, when they are clearly BOTH responsible for their contributions to the “Steroid Era”?

    • nsalem

      I don’t think anyone’s giving Selig pat on the back. I have not heard or read anything positive about his handling of this situation. Bosch had little credibility and I felt he was lying. I also felt that A-Rod was lying on the Francesa and he was answering the question directly and only blinked once during his replies.

      • Is it just me or…

        I think they’re all lying, but the whole things feels one-sided and A-Rod is getting railroaded. The players are the only one’s getting punished here, A-Rod worst of all, meanwhile Bosch gets immunity and money??? And Bud Selig is going to go on a Rivera-like Farewell Tour??? Eventually gets into the HOF for taking a stand against PEDs???

        c’mon now…

        Seriously, screw A-Rod, but all of these guys should be going down hard. NOT just the players involved.

    • Jorge Steinbrenner

      I think that’s a rather simple “he’s lying” reason. I found his story entirely plausible.

    • Ian

      Bosch comes off looking horrible. And yet also more or less credible, at least with respect to A Rod (where there is a mountain of corroborating evidence).

  • Giambi Juice

    Anybody see the Dave Cameron post on punishing teams for their own players’ PED use? While I don’t agree with the notion, I do believe it could introduce the idea of creating PED clauses in player contracts. A PED clause could add to a player’s incentive to remain clean.

    • jedua

      It amuses me when somebody says that teams should be penalized for having players taking PEDs after Rodriguez got suspended

      Lets take the red sox 2004 and 2007 world series away from them

      the rangers eliminated the yankees two years in a row having Cruz on their team.

      the giants would have missed the playoffs without Melky.

      But probably just the yankees have those kind of players.

      • BamBamMusings

        “Lets take the red sox 2004 and 2007 world series away from them”

        I like it! Lets move ahead with this one..

    • Tom

      Dave Cameron is one of the bigger PED apologists around. In the past he has argued that PEDs don’t help as much as people think and there’s no real proof they help at all. He even put a before and after table at one point on the Biogenesis names claiming you couldn’t really see a benefit (because apparently the all knowing Dave Cameron could tell when people on that list were and weren’t using PEDs)

      And now that he wants to put the responsibility on the teams for what a player chooses to do, he makes up this ridiculous moral hazard strawman and claims teams are benefiting from players using PEDs?

      It would be nice if he could make up his mind on whether PEDs are a significant help or not and not change his tune based on the argument he wants to make on a given day.

  • mustang

    I never thought I would find a Yankees story more annoying and play out then the “Joba starter or reliever” thing I was wrong this A-Rod shit is 10 times worse.

    How much do we have to pay to make it go away forever?

    • dkidd

      65 million dollars

    • Deep Thoughts

      I’m thinking of a number between one and 61,000,001…

    • Pinkie Pie

      $61 million.

    • mustang

      61 kind of ironic since thats the number of HR one Barry Bonds had to break.

      • Alkaline

        Half Life 3 confirmed.

      • steve (different one)

        not to break balls, but it was 70…

        • mustang

          your right…LOL

          irony out the window

    • murakami

      No, what was annoying was the Yankees bungling the Joba Chamberlain role from go, but that’s what one has come to expect from the inept GM & Co.

      As for people commenting on it, why the hell wouldn’t they??

  • Lets go Yankees

    Just got a note in the mail from Tacopina. A-Rod is suing me for Slander because I commented against him on RAB!

    • The Yankee Asterisk

      ROFLOL. I might be getting that INJUNCTION too.

    • mustang

      Same for me want to share a lawyer maybe we can get Ben to defend us…LOL.

      What I find most entertaining about this and A-Rod’s supports is that no matter how much one might hate MLB, Bud Selig, Rob Manfred, Bosch or MLBPA one and only one person open this Pandora’s box and that’s Alexander Emmanuel “Alex” Rodriguez.
      We can argue how we got here and whether it’s wrong or right but at the end Alexander Emmanuel “Alex” Rodriguez started this shit ball rolling down this mountain of shit.

      THE END!!!!!!

  • BamBamMusings

    I’d love to know what the final 3 Tanaka teams are? We seemed to have forgotten about the 2014 baseball season this weekend..

    • mustang

      That’s the saddest part.

      Rumors has it Yankees, Dodgers and Angles.

      • BamBamMusings

        As long as its not the Mariners!

        • Chip Rodriguez

          or Boston.

    • forensic

      From what I’ve seen, I seems to be the Angels, Dodgers, and Yankees.

      • forensic

        *it seems…

      • The Yankee Asterisk

        What happened to the Cubs? And the Mariners and DBacks?

        • forensic

          Reports have been that his preferred cities are Los Angeles and New York (along with Boston, but they don’t seem to be going in big on him, nor do they need to).

          I’m sure those other clubs are still in the talks and have or will make offers, but this is the only information we really have so far.

    • Alkaline

      I hope we do. I have a good feeling about Tanaka.
      Albeit I’ve been having some trouble coming up with some good puns. It was so easy for Yu.

  • Alkaline

    So…when does the season start?

    • mustang

      Not soon enough for me.


      • Alkaline

        I realize now how thankful I am for 2 springs ago. I just graduated and was only subbing. As a result, I wasn’t called everyday, letting me actually enjoy Spring Training games. I believe that was the Spring ManBan lasted quite a bit into the preseason and showing off his change. Good times.

        Now the real world stuff takes it away.

        • mustang

          “Now the real world stuff takes it away.”

          I hear you dude. I try to get away once a season the boys, the game and me SWEET! . If you ever get the chance I suggest Wrigley Field (BTW the Yanks play there this year I’m going for the second time its that good) it’s baseball heaven.

          Sometimes life makes it hard to live.

    • Wheels

      Exactly, hurry up April.

  • Coolerking101

    Some great tidbits in that decision. I took particular notice of the fact that the decision specifically says Arod declined the opportunity to allow an independent investigator to review the blackberry stuff. This is a HUGE point and speaks to how disingenuous his attonreys have been in the public. Just this morning his attorney was on WFAN and claimed that the blackberry data could not be trusted and that MLB refused to give him access. He made it sound like they had no access whatsoever. Total bullshit. From experience, let me assure you, you do not stretch the truth this way if the truth is on your side. If I ever had any question regarding Arod’s guilt, those questions have been answered.

    • Jessica’s Yankees

      Its ironic that Alex’s people keep bringing up how shady Bosch is, yet it was Alex who sought Bosch out. At this point, I would take Bosch’s word over Alex Rodriguez. Including the part about his life being threatened. Just a horrible person!

      • stuckey

        “Anthony Bosch is a liar, a cheat, a drug abuser, a publicity hound and apparently few to none of the other players implicated have come out to say Anthony Bosch did NOT supply them with banned substances.

        “So naturally my client hired him as his nutritionist.

        “What, what’s that?

        “No, at no time did it occur to my clients that thousands of text messages that never used words like ‘kale’ and ‘carrot’ and ‘wheat germ’ but instead used very vaguish terms would someday read suspicious.”

        I mean folks, c’mon.

  • The Thumb

    So to lighten the mood from this ARod BS, RAB fantasy players: what yankees are you most excited about this year? I’d probably say, McCann, Robertson (sv+hld league), and Beltran.

    I always try to have at least one or two Yanks on my team, last year was DRob and Gardner…

    • forensic

      McCann would certainly be a good get in fantasy with the short porch now. I think Ellsbury would also be pretty valuable given his steals.

      • The Thumb

        The only issue I have with Ellsbury is that I believe he’s over drafted. Too much of his value is in steals. I believe you’re better off focusing on power and avg. in the first three rounds and snagging a guy like Rajai Davis later to cover cheap steals.

        • forensic

          You could be right, but the issue with Davis is that you’re playing him over someone possibly better and his playing time might be inconsistent and not easy to predict.

          I’m not really familiar with drafting trends recently since last year was the first time in forever that I did fantasy and I just ended up taking over someone else’s team (in a keeper league) part way through the season.

        • Chip Rodriguez

          Ellsbury’s good for steals, average/OBP and runs. Those aren’t categories worth drafting someone in the first 2-3 rounds for, yet he seems to go there each draft.

          Steals-related aside… how early/late would you draft Billy Hamilton, if he’s starting for the Reds?

  • Ian

    This is my very favorite website; its an absolute beast in terms of content and analysis. Mike Axisa should absolutely win a Nobel Prize for his work here.

    Having said that, I find the moral equivalence he implicitly attempts to draw between A Rod and MLB to be tiresome and, given the evidence I’ve seen at least, a monumental stretch. There is a real chance that A Rod contemplated murder. I mean, hopefully he didn’t. But there’s a real chance he and his associates planned to murder Anthony Bosch. I am, despite my better judgement, going to give A Rod the benefit of the doubt on that one. Let’s assume he had no plans to do it or that his associates got carried away. We are still left with a serial, pathological liar who almost certainly routinely and habitually used banned substances to improve his performance and cheat the game he professes to love during a time when PEDs inhabited the same infamy in the public eye as syphilis or Kim Jong-Il. His actions speak of a honest to goodness sociopath. Can anyone blame MLB for doing whatever it took to nail this contemptible mess of a human being to the wall? Why is this so hard for Mike–who is so bloody smart about so much–to grasp?

    The rough baseball analog is to excoriate Kenesaw Mountain Landis for banishing Chick Gandil because you don’t care for the process or because the crime–gambling–was so widespread. Or because there’s no real evidence Gandil threw any games. Perceptions matter a great deal, and if the public thinks that players can game the system the way A Rod obviously attempted to do, the product is in real jeopardy.

  • MB923
    • forensic

      Over 762 career plate appearances between 2011-13, Forsythe has a cumulative .241/.310/.349 line. He does bring speed to the table, as he has registered 57 stolen bases over that period.

      Jeff Todd needs to double-check which columns he’s looking at. The 57 is RBI, not steals (which is 17). That’s quite a difference, and I have no interest in Forsythe as an option, especially since you may actually need to give up a warm body for him.

      • MartinRanger

        Is he any good against righties? what are his minor league stats like? I’m trying to figure out what the front office sees here.

  • BK2ATL

    I thought my head was gonna explode reading Cashman’s quote in this mlbtraderumors article by Tim Dierkes.

    There’s a reason our farm system is not that great. We really don’t know what we have or how to develop players. Not saying that we should be batting 100% or even 50%, but even the successes that happened recently, certainly weren’t by plan. Nova was considered an “organizational arm” as was Nuno, until necessity forced them to use each. Phelps just kept at it, and would’ve been treated like the ilk of the Zach McAlisters of the past, IF Nova didn’t have some success.

    Some of the names that Cashman kept on the 40 man rotation, over Jose Quintana…..Brandon Laird, George Kontos, Brad Meyers, DJ Mitchell, David Adams, Melky Mesa, Corbin Joseph, Ramiro Pena……taolent evaluation, Yankees’ style. None of these players are much to talk about, just hype within the Yankees’ world.

    “The biggest recent success story is the signing of lefty Jose Quintana by the White Sox after the 2011 season. Quintana was signed by the Mets out of Colombia for $40K in 2006, and signed with the Yankees about a year later after the Mets released him due to a violation of the Minor League Baseball drug policy. Baseball America never ranked Quintana among the Yankees’ top 30 prospects, and he became a six-year minor league free agent after ’11. GM Brian Cashman told Joel Sherman of the New York Post in June 2012, “We looked at him as a fringy prospect. We offered him a minor league contract to stay, but not a 40-man roster position. We didn’t feel he was ahead of other guys we gave spots to. It was a numbers game, but right now it does not look like a good decision.” White Sox scouts Joe Siers and Daraka Shaheed “made him stand out on the six-year free-agent list,” then-assistant GM Rick Hahn told Sherman, and the Sox and GM Kenny Williams separated themselves from the pack by offering Quintana a Major League deal. Fresh off 200 innings of 3.51 ball in 2013, Quintana is a scouting success for Chicago and the best recent example of a Major League deal paying off big for a player with no experience at the game’s highest level.”

    • Jorge Steinbrenner

      I would not say that Nova was considered an org arm at all, just not a top prospect. Everything I ever read on him acknowledged the raw stuff was there.

      Nuno is about 2 1/2 years removed from the indie leagues. He’s still a wild card.

      All the names you mentioned are fringe guys, none of which were ever played up outside of blog comments.

      Yes, Quintana got away. The odds of a pitcher doing what he did, a year removed from A ball, as an MiLB free agent, have to be close to astronomical.

      Your assessment as to who is and was in this system is all over the place.

      • BK2ATL

        Maybe YOU wouldn’t say he was, but if you do a search even on this very site, much less google, you will see that I’m not making it up. Same with Nuno, as recent as early last year.

        It’s not like we had an abundance of LH SP in the minors. Quintana was possibly nothing special, but then again, so were the names I listed. Rather than try to develop him, being a rarity in the system, they placed their chips on other fringe prospects in positions that were in abundance.

        Those “fringe guys” held valuable 40 man roster spots. While you’re dismissive of them, the Yankees certainly weren’t.

        It’s kinda crazy that our 3 top drafts picks from 2013, already are considered within our top 10 prospects. What does that tell you about the fruits of the past 3-5 years of player development????

        • Jorge Steinbrenner

          Great! Show me actual evidence of Ivan Nova being called an org arm on here. Go. You even have until this afternoon. I have a flight home to catch.

          Fringe guys hold 40 man slots on every team. Do you even look at who gets DFA’d on a daily basis in this league?

          Base your opinion on facts, not the other way around. You’re flubbing one of the easiest arguments to make.

          • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

            He hasn’t responded. I know we’re all completely shocked.

          • BK2ATL

            I know that this was specifically opined in a couple of the Friday chat sessions here back in 2009-2010. I’m trying to find those chat transcripts on this site.

            In the meanwhile, you can infer whatever you want from these links. On the 2nd one from late 2009, from the notable John Sickels, Nova didn’t even crack his top 20 org prospects, and was even behind such notables as Noesi and Venditte. Take from that what you want.



            Here’s a direct statement on Nuno from Keith Law, just last year around MLB draft time period.


            “Steven (Chicago)

            Is Vidal Nuno anything more than an organizational arm or could he be a useful starter in NY?
            Klaw (1:58 PM)

            Org starter.”

            • Jorge Steinbrenner

              I really actually do appreciate you following up. Really. Most folks would just disappear.

              This backs up more my claim on Nova, that he wasn’t a highly regarded prospect, but was a prospect nonetheless, more than it backs up yours, which is that he was an org arm. Perhaps your definition of “org arm” is a bit too broad, and that’s what’s getting in the way here. An org arm and a mid-level prospect are two different things. Nova was always a pretty mid-level prospect.

              On Nuno, I can’t understand how quoting Law backs up your claim. You’re saying the Yankees don’t know what they’ve got. That’s an outsider making a prediction on him.

              Anyways, my gut feeling is that we’ve both got murky definitions here, and this is the overnight Open Thread, so we’ll leave it at that, and thank you for actually taking me up on a “challenge” when it just would have been easier to call me an ass right back.

  • Roadgeek Adam

    Phillies fired Sarge Matthews & Chris “Wheels” Wheeler. Can YES hire Sarge, like now?

    • forensic

      Why? He’s terrible.

      • Roadgeek Adam

        For whatever reason, I never got the terrible vibe. I remember hearing him on Expos broadcasts and on various Phillies ones, I’ve enjoyed his work for the SSS I have.

        • Roadgeek Adam

          Excuse me. Blue Jays not Expos.

  • pft

    Reading the arbitrators report it is clear MLB had nothing besides the criminal drug pusher they bought out. The texts and documents (copies, not originals) were not sufficient since they either lacked Arods name or the name of the PED’s, and required Bosch to specify. The so called tampering charges were also based on Bosch’s say so, and most involved an “associate” and not Arod himself.

    On the subject of PED’s, there is no evidence Bosch actually gave Arod PED’s since Bosch was not compelled to give up his sources. For all we know Bosch was selling Arod expensive bee sperm, and based on Arods performance from 2010-2012, that’s more likely than him getting anything that enhanced his performance.

    I think a preliminary injunction gets approved as there seems to be clear evidence of bias. Not allowing Selig to testify on the grounds and breakdown for the 211 games, and we still don’t know from the arbitrator who danced around it. Not compelling Bosch to answer Arods questions by threatening to throw out his entire testimony. MLB would have then been forced to push Bosch to answer the questions or be in breach of their agreement. The arbitrators failure to distinguish between Arod and his “associates” is also telling. Also, the early release of his findings so MLB’s propaganda piece could be heard at a time that maximized ratings is also suggestive.

    The MLBPA’s behaviour is consistent with union leadership that has been co-opted by MLB. Players should clean house there. I am horrified that Horowitz has not been fired by the MLBPA, but not surprised. MLB wasted little time before firing the arbitrator who ruled for Braun, and perhaps that is more reason to believe that the arbitrators decision was based on something besides the evidence.

    • Dan in Athens

      I am willing to bet you 10,000 dollars that no injunction is approved that let’s him play one regular season game. Added to the wager is the right to punch the loser is the testicles plus the cost of the flight and video taping. I have the labor law award from Wake Forest, where I graduated Order of the Coif from law school, and practiced 13 years in federal court before retiring, after which I began studying for my PhD and teaching.

      Are you in?

  • Bo Knows

    Apparently Tanaka’s wife would prefer the west coast; that is a really big blow if the Dodgers, Seattle, or the Angels go hard after him. (Everyone knows the saying happy wife, happy life)

    It’s also quote “not a mandate” but the only way it isn’t is if the Yankees blow the competition out the water.

  • Dalek Jeter

    Lets forget baseball for a few minutes, anybody watch the Archer premiere? and if so, lets discuss how great it was.

  • nycsportzfan

    Can’t we just be done with this! And why don’t Arod just take his suspension and move on? He cheated and was caught and lied. Is he to stupid to realize how much he benefited all ready from cheating? I mean, he certainly didn’t mind benefiting from cheating, thats for sure..

  • Karl Krawfid

    Anyone wanna talk about how skinny CC has gotten?

  • Improbable Island’s Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR)

    I’m gonna be honest, I watched “His Last Vow”, the final Sherlock episode of season 3, on Sunday, and I think it pretty much ruined all other TV forever since it kind of exploded my brain with awesome. After the finale I sat there literally gaping at my screen open-mouthed.

    Holy shit, I forgot how incredible that show could really be. Best episode of series three, which was excellent overall.

  • Improbable Island’s Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR)

    My pessimistic prediction for the 2014 season: We make no other major signings and get a barely above replacement level IFer to play third base and a replacement level player for second. No pitchers except for scrap heap guys. The Yankees win 75 games next year.

    I think we’re going to enter a lull period for awhile. Here’s hoping they spend the time making a good fucking farm system.

  • qwerty

    How can anyone look at Arod and tell me that’s not the face of pure innocence.

  • steves

    A couple of ironies I have not heard much talk about:

    a) The Players Association member of the panel actually voted against Horowitz’s decision. Arod then turns around and names the Association as a defendant for breaches of duty of fair representation. What could more evidence of “fair” than voting for Arod in the actual arbitration case!

    b) The new complaint is before a very distinguished Yale/Harvard educated Hispanic (Puerto Rican) judge appointed by Obama (Judge Ramos). I wonder what his reaction will be if the trumped-up “Hispanics Across America” group starts picketing outside his courthouse?

  • mick taylor

    if all these self righteous reporters like that drunk bill madden believe bosch when he says a rod did peds, why are they not believing him when he says most platers also use peds. by the way crucify arod while 99 % of football players use peds but no one in the media cares. if seattle wins the super bowl, it will be because key players on peds were greatly responsible. football brought peds into team sports beginning with the terry bradshaw steelers who had rampant ped use before most nfl teams were using them and which helped them win those titles. but no one cares. i guess i should be as indignant about arod as david ortiz is but i am not. arod did what most athletes do including tiger woods

  • rogue

    “There wasn’t a great deal of investigative reporting done and they missed a golden opportunity to ask Bosch why he changed his story after agreeing to cooperate with MLB. There were a few softball questions about the “integrity of the game” and stuff like that. Kinda silly. I did enjoy watching MLB’s chief witness, who they’ve sunk seven figures into between legal fees and personal security and all that, insinuate pretty much every player is doing PEDs on national television. That was great. Otherwise everyone involved comes out of the segment looking like a slimeball.”

    …and you now have a pretty good idea why I don’t watch network “news”…