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Follow us on TwitterThe Red Sox Propaganda Machine Peter Gammons reports that the Red Sox and Twins may be on the verge of completing a 5-for-1 deal with Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie, Ryan Kalish and Justin Masterson heading to Minnesota in exchange for Johan Santana. That’s quite a lot of talent to send away for one pitcher.
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How reliable is Gammons?
How come we can’t just keep adding crappy player after crappy player to our one decent player until this thing works? What a bunch of bullshit.
How come we can’t just keep adding crappy player after crappy player to our one decent player until this thing works? What a bunch of bullshit.
Because we’re the Yankees… titans of corporate greed, symbol of all that’s wrong with sports. As opposed to the small-market, true-hearted Red Sox, who are just struggling to get to nickels to rub together.
How is shipping away the Sox’s youth and future “true-hearted?” They’re rounding em’ up like sheep. If anything, the Yankees are demonstrating class and pride in their youth and their future.
I think you missed the sarcasm
That out of a Yankee fan’s mouth is sarcasm. That out of a Sox’s fan’s mouth is sincerity. I thought for a second there was a massive spill of Red Sox Kool-Aid on our turf. Glad to hear your A-Ok.
No sh#t. AS I said in the last thread, this is the definition of quantity over quality. According to Gammons, kalish is “comfortably in the Sox top 10, which is either the biggest load of crap and Gammons is literally trying to help the Sox, or the Sox top 10 prospects suck ass….
I still fail to see how this deal is in anyways comparable with the Hughes, Melky, AG, and Marquez package the Yanks supposedly offered…
The Twins seem to be behaving as if they wanna stick it to the Yanks more than anything else.
Right? This seems more and more like a move out of spite.
Does anyone know what the Red Sox faithful’s consesus is on this 5-1 deal?
Probably that this would be a great deal, since Santana replaces Lester, Crisp is behind Elsbury, Lowrie is behind Pedroia/Lugo, there’s no room for Masterson, and Kalish is 4 years away.
How can ESPN continue to employ Gammons as an “objective” analyst? He was in the “running” for PRESIDENT OF RED SOX NATION.
While we are at it, RS Nation should just appoint Bill Smith as their VP.
The red sox fans definitely want the deal. The way their rotations stands without santana, Lester probably wouldn’t crack the top five till Schilling retires.
However, this deal is far from done. The sox still must sign him and if santana’s agent is smart he will try to get at least 150 mil over 6 years. If the red sox refuse, then the twins will either have to hold on to santana or ask the yankees for hughes. the twins could go to the angels but any team they go to will have to pay santana what he wants. it probably doesn’t happen, but the twins could be in a position to have only one trading partner.
This deal is the beginning of the end for the red sox. For once we are making the right move and they are going to make the wrong move. After this trade becket is going to want big bucks and sox will have three highly paid pitches under contact long term with a lot of innings on there arms. We all know that a pitcher can pitch over 200 innings for so long. There farm will lack talent after this trade. Are staff is set this year. Lets work on the bullpen
They’ll still have buchholz and ellsbury .. they’re two best prospects
the sox aren’t making the wrong move .. they are making an INCREDIBLE move if they get Santana for those 5 players … look above to see how the players being dealt are either replaced or blocked
the sox are getting the ultimate sweetheart deal if this goes through .. the twin must be in love with lester
the sox will be in a position to be dominant for a long time … people seem to be discounting santana because we aren’t getting him .. HE IS THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL and probably will continue to be for some time
Their farm will be just fine. They still have buccholz and Ellsbury, and the farm guys they are giving up they have no use for at all. There is a difference between giving away really really valuable pieces like Hughes and a flaming bag of Sh#t like this package
This is another case of a team trading their best player for a bag of shit from the Sox. I guess Bill Smith grew up as a RS fan?
This fucking sucks… When the deal fell apart, I felt good because I thought the Twins were crazy and were asking for the moon, the sun, and the stars. Then, they turn around and go to the Red Sox and ask for a lightpost.
Bill Smith will be fired 5 years from now for being the guy who didn’t get Phil Hughes.
Hughes, Melky, and Bill Smith’s mom > Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and Kalish.
Shameful.
Could this be a ploy to get us to throw in the white flag on adding Kennedy?
Santana won’t be the last great pitcher available to us. Peavy’s contract’s coming to an end in 2009. Jeremy Bonderman’s contract is up after this year, as is Sabathia’s. Santana’s great, but let’s not lose perspective.
Peavy just signed an extension…And I would not put any money on either of thsoe 2 others becoming FAs
Let us not forget that unless the Sox are paying ALL of Crisp’s salary, the Sox basically get a $5 mill/year discount on Johan
I think everyone is being a bit Yankee-centric here. Lowrie projects to be a major league shortstop next year. Lester can go into the rotation. And Masterson actually projects a lot better than Horne according to some (better stuff). Plus if i were Bill Smith and I had this limited pool of potential trade partners I would probably go for volume and the pieces that are closest to the majors. In this circumstance, Lester is major league ready, so is Crisp, so is Lowrie. Thats three of his 25 man roster. The Yankees may be giving better quality but Smith’s reputation is based on Phil Hughes and how he does going forward. And as much as we all love Phil, pitchers, even with his pedigree have the odds against him being a dominant pitcher. And after that its Melky, and Melky is sort of known commodity, granted a better value than Coco, but sort of on the same level talent wise. And the Yankees then refused (rightfully) to give up anyone that is arguably close to ready or the higher end guys who project to be studs.
Yeah, but the Yankees were perfectly willing to throw in assorted crap like Kalish. Lester and Crisp are both crappier than Hughes and Melky, so basically, this deal is based around Lowrie, Masterson, and Kalish being THAT MUCH MORE to trump a Hughes, Melky, Marques, and AG package. Please.So who would you rather stake your future on, Phil Hughes, or Jed Lowrie?
“Go for volume?” You mean the yanks can’t come up with a bigger bag of crap than the sox?
First you said Lowrie “projects” to a ML SS next year. Then you said he is ML ready. Make up your mind.
And as much as we all love Lestor/Masterson, pitchers, even with their pedigrees have the odds against them being dominant pitchers.
Lowrie should be a major league middle infielder, though his defense at shortstop is supposedly mediocre. I think Horne has better stuff than Masterson (who doesn’t have much in the way of secondary pitches aside from a sinker). Plus, Masterson’s sinker wouldn’t play very well in Minnesota with the turf, I would think. Melky and Crisp are comparable players, though I might pick Melky due to youth and (for the Twins) price. Kalish is a legitimate high-ceiling prospect, but is very far away and was shut down after 23 games due to a hand injury. To me it comes down to this:
Hughes and whatever 3rd player Cashman offered (Gonzalez? Marquez?) vs. Lester, Masterson/Bowden, Lowrie and Kalish. Hughes is by far the best player in this trade, but I understand the Twins wanting the Yanks to include another prospect in the class of Masterson, Lowrie or Kalish.
Come on Angels, make a good offer. How about Wood, Weaver, Willits?
Crisp hit .256/.305/.363 away from Fenway and .225/.273/.296 on turf.
Melk hit .276/.319/.427 and .254/.282/.358 - the #’s are close, but Melk is better in every category.
Crisp is owed 12 mil the next two - Melk made 430K last year and isn’t eligible for arb until 09
Crisp doesn’t have close to Melk’s arm, and he’s 5 years older. Crisp RF .307 vs. Melks .302, Crisp ZR .911 Melk .903 - very close.
Crisp is the type of guy you take to get someone else (i.e. like the Sox did with Lowell to get Beckett).
Twins are doing the Sox a favor in taking Crisp - pisses me off.
Melk’s .180 in September killed his #’s and maybe he doesn’t improve much or at all, but Melk is the better overall player and probably costs you 10 mil less over two years - plus you can control him for 4.
I thought Masterson projected as a reliever? That would mean he doesn’t really need great secondary pitches, just a great pitch
Plus the twins will have a new stadium before Masterson is ready .. which i presume will NOT have turf
I had heard that about Masterson as well. And Alan Horne has four plus pitches, so I would give him the edge in any comparison against Masterson. Bill Smith is smoking crack.
lowrie is not a major league shortstop defensively, he’s a 2nd basemen.
good take Steve S … i still think Min is getting a bad deal .. they should hold out for ellsbury .. crisp is relatively expensive all things considered and doesn’t seem to jive with the twins MO
Go right ahead minnie, get yourselves off with Lester+Crisp+who?. Look forward to irrelevance for the next decade.
I think people underestimate how much the Twins can actually spend. They arent the Marlins, so while Coco isnt exactly a bargain, he isnt pricey.
I think if it were Terry Ryan, he would do the Hughes deal in a minute, but this is a brand new GM who has to trade the best pitcher in baseball. If I were him I would be a bit concerned about attaching my entire legacy to one player (Phil Hughes), as good as that player is. And all things being said, Phil had a nice first year but by no means did he establish himself. He projects better than Lester, but at this point Lester may be further along and able to help a team like the Twins sooner. And as I said earlier, if he can three major league players, its the safer bet than hoping Hughes becomes dominant. Im not saying he is right, but I think its a little ridiculous to say the Red Sox arent giving anything up. Rather, they are in a better position to make this deal. They already have 3/5 of their rotation set, not to mention Clay Bucholtz, who looked pretty good last year. They can give up Coco or Elsbury (who i think is very overrated) and still be in a similar position. The Yankees unfortunately need the depth in the rotation because they will be relying kids who have never made it through 35 starts and 200 innings.
“I think if it were Terry Ryan, he would do the Hughes deal in a minute, but this is a brand new GM who has to trade the best pitcher in baseball.”
I get it. You are Bill Smith, GM, Twins.
Im not sure if you realize who Terry Ryan is
Im not sure if you realize what a fair deal is.
I think youre drinking the kool aid a little. Instead of glib answers why not make a point. Its easy to say Hughes is better than Lester and Melky is better than Crisp, and then dismiss all the other players. But the bottom line is the Yankees wont give up those fringe prospects and thats the difference. Not to mention the fact that they dont have one position player ready to start for next year, which Lowrie represents. I hate that Im actually arguing in favor of the Red Sox.
Looks like the Pajama Manager’s job just got a little easier. What a lame deal from Minny’s perspective.
There are more rumblings about the Angels giving up on Cabrera and focusing that same package on Santana, which should easily trump the Sox offer…Let’s keep the ol’ fingers crossed!
I don’t really care about the Sox having Santana, as I think the Yanks could still overcome that. But its the fact that they wouldn’t have to give up a single piece of their system that will cost them anything in the next 4-5 years that I really find galling. The Twins shouldn’t be in such a rush–demand Lester AND ellsbury or just wait, like they did to the Yanks
I want to know why the Yankees are asked for Hughes and Kennedy but the sox do not have to give up Lester and Ellbury
Accoding to every scout/expert Lester isnt in the same League and Hughes who is moe comparable to Bucholz. I cant blame the Yanks fo pulling out if the Twins asked for Kennedy, but they should not have done it publicly because that just gives Boston more leverage in the negotiations. Hank in his infinite wisdom gave the Sox the opening to make this trade instead of just sayinf no pivately and waiting for an inevtibale call fom the Twins asking the Yanks for a final offer - where they could have and should have put in Horne or Ajax and another Btype playe — Gonzalez, Gardner, Marquez.
The angriest guy in NY today is Cashman because Hank totally undecut him in this and took away all his leverage. Hank - get ove yourself - you did not WIN the AROD negotiations. Sure Boras wasnt involved but you still gave him 315 million dollars - You are not a baseball genius so keep your mouth shut and let your GM do his job
I am really at the point that I dont know if I can watch baseball next year - this deal has me so sick
Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.
via BPro at 5:15. that’s not possible, is it? (unless Ellsbury is the ‘CFer’)
http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=6970
The only way for that package to work (notice there is no LOWRIE) is if the CF is Crisp. Obviously Carroll either forgot Lowrie, or its a package of Ellsbury, Lester, Masterson, and Kalish…Which at least would be a bit more reasonable for the Twins…
We at River Ave. Blues don’t buy a word of anything Will Carroll says. He’s been…how can I say this politely…fucking inaccurate for quite some time.
(I cite an instance in May when Moose was supposed to go on a rehab assignment to Trenton, but threw a simulated game instead. Carroll said that Moose had a good rehab start in Trenton. Uh, sorry, but he blatantly made that up. How could he say he started in Trenton, never mind calling it a “good start,” when Moose has never pitched a game in Trenton?)
i didnt know that Joe. but if the deal DOES include Ellsbury as the CFer, i wouldn’t have a problem with it.
Agreed. If it’s Ellsbury, I’m glad to see the Sox mortgage their future for Santana. I’ll love it when Alex or Jeter smashes a home run in the ALCS to end their fun.
All the fears we had for Santana now are on the Red Sox… elbow injury-history, workload, drop-off last year, Fenway not being that great a park for LHP, 25 million a year, no prospects to replace Crisp/Drew, Beckett being infuriated/annoyed/a chipmunk.
Let them worry about it. I fail to see how the addition of Santana means very much for the Sox… they already had a good rotation for the Postseason, but Dice-K/Schilling are by no means untouchable (I think Beckett is touchable as well, as the Yankees showed during the regular season).
We’ll all laugh if his arm falls off in a year. And maybe, Phil Hughes/Joba Chamberlain will beat Johan Santana in Game 2 of the ALCS this year and we’ll laugh our fucking heads off.
I will not believe a single propaganda quote until the signatures are down…
Jo-who Santana?
Will we all still laugh when he wins another CY Young award and the Sox win another WS? So much for all of this being a bluff by the Sox. Good luck beating the Sox in the ALCS with their rotation.
Trade rumors are tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Who the hell knows why a given piece of information finds its way into the public domain.
And if this stuff is all true, then I say so what? We still have more money to spend than anyone else. All we need to do to be successful is to not make stupid business decisions. Keep the offense potent and the young arms stock-piled…good things are bound to happen. This is not Joe Torre’s team anymore. Girardi deserves a shot with the big three.
Thank God it’s not Torre’s team anymore - he is not a wartime mananger. LOL Girardi will bring much needed toughness and is more of a tactician.
Hank: “You’re not a wartime consiglieri, Torre. Things may get rough with the move we’re trying.”
Torre: “Maybe I could help…”
Hank: “You’re out, Joe.”
:p
Given what they asked of the Yankees, a comparable Sawx package would be Laptop Thief AND Ellsbury AND Lester.
This is a fucking joke.