Dec
04

As the Santana turns

By

The Red Sox Propaganda Machine Peter Gammons reports that the Red Sox and Twins may be on the verge of completing a 5-for-1 deal with Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie, Ryan Kalish and Justin Masterson heading to Minnesota in exchange for Johan Santana. That’s quite a lot of talent to send away for one pitcher.

Categories : Asides

69 Comments»

  1. Dimaggio5 says:

    How reliable is Gammons?

  2. Mike A. says:

    How come we can’t just keep adding crappy player after crappy player to our one decent player until this thing works? What a bunch of bullshit.

    • Sean McNally says:

      How come we can’t just keep adding crappy player after crappy player to our one decent player until this thing works? What a bunch of bullshit.

      Because we’re the Yankees… titans of corporate greed, symbol of all that’s wrong with sports. As opposed to the small-market, true-hearted Red Sox, who are just struggling to get to nickels to rub together.

      • It'sMeSNITCHES!!! says:

        How is shipping away the Sox’s youth and future “true-hearted?” They’re rounding em’ up like sheep. If anything, the Yankees are demonstrating class and pride in their youth and their future.

        • zack says:

          I think you missed the sarcasm

          • It'sMeSNITCHES!!! says:

            That out of a Yankee fan’s mouth is sarcasm. That out of a Sox’s fan’s mouth is sincerity. I thought for a second there was a massive spill of Red Sox Kool-Aid on our turf. Glad to hear your A-Ok.

    • zack says:

      No sh#t. AS I said in the last thread, this is the definition of quantity over quality. According to Gammons, kalish is “comfortably in the Sox top 10, which is either the biggest load of crap and Gammons is literally trying to help the Sox, or the Sox top 10 prospects suck ass….

      I still fail to see how this deal is in anyways comparable with the Hughes, Melky, AG, and Marquez package the Yanks supposedly offered…

  3. It'sMeSNITCHES!!! says:

    Does anyone know what the Red Sox faithful’s consesus is on this 5-1 deal?

    • Jay says:

      Probably that this would be a great deal, since Santana replaces Lester, Crisp is behind Elsbury, Lowrie is behind Pedroia/Lugo, there’s no room for Masterson, and Kalish is 4 years away.

  4. keith says:

    How can ESPN continue to employ Gammons as an “objective” analyst? He was in the “running” for PRESIDENT OF RED SOX NATION.

  5. Jewish Jackhammer says:

    The red sox fans definitely want the deal. The way their rotations stands without santana, Lester probably wouldn’t crack the top five till Schilling retires.

    However, this deal is far from done. The sox still must sign him and if santana’s agent is smart he will try to get at least 150 mil over 6 years. If the red sox refuse, then the twins will either have to hold on to santana or ask the yankees for hughes. the twins could go to the angels but any team they go to will have to pay santana what he wants. it probably doesn’t happen, but the twins could be in a position to have only one trading partner.

  6. george vb says:

    This deal is the beginning of the end for the red sox. For once we are making the right move and they are going to make the wrong move. After this trade becket is going to want big bucks and sox will have three highly paid pitches under contact long term with a lot of innings on there arms. We all know that a pitcher can pitch over 200 innings for so long. There farm will lack talent after this trade. Are staff is set this year. Lets work on the bullpen

    • Glen L says:

      They’ll still have buchholz and ellsbury .. they’re two best prospects

      the sox aren’t making the wrong move .. they are making an INCREDIBLE move if they get Santana for those 5 players … look above to see how the players being dealt are either replaced or blocked

      the sox are getting the ultimate sweetheart deal if this goes through .. the twin must be in love with lester

      the sox will be in a position to be dominant for a long time … people seem to be discounting santana because we aren’t getting him .. HE IS THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL and probably will continue to be for some time

    • zack says:

      Their farm will be just fine. They still have buccholz and Ellsbury, and the farm guys they are giving up they have no use for at all. There is a difference between giving away really really valuable pieces like Hughes and a flaming bag of Sh#t like this package

  7. kris says:

    This is another case of a team trading their best player for a bag of shit from the Sox. I guess Bill Smith grew up as a RS fan?

  8. eric from morrisania says:

    This fucking sucks… When the deal fell apart, I felt good because I thought the Twins were crazy and were asking for the moon, the sun, and the stars. Then, they turn around and go to the Red Sox and ask for a lightpost.

    Bill Smith will be fired 5 years from now for being the guy who didn’t get Phil Hughes.

    Hughes, Melky, and Bill Smith’s mom > Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and Kalish.

    Shameful.

  9. It'sMeSNITCHES!!! says:

    Could this be a ploy to get us to throw in the white flag on adding Kennedy?

  10. Geno says:

    Santana won’t be the last great pitcher available to us. Peavy’s contract’s coming to an end in 2009. Jeremy Bonderman’s contract is up after this year, as is Sabathia’s. Santana’s great, but let’s not lose perspective.

  11. zack says:

    Let us not forget that unless the Sox are paying ALL of Crisp’s salary, the Sox basically get a $5 mill/year discount on Johan

  12. Steve S says:

    I think everyone is being a bit Yankee-centric here. Lowrie projects to be a major league shortstop next year. Lester can go into the rotation. And Masterson actually projects a lot better than Horne according to some (better stuff). Plus if i were Bill Smith and I had this limited pool of potential trade partners I would probably go for volume and the pieces that are closest to the majors. In this circumstance, Lester is major league ready, so is Crisp, so is Lowrie. Thats three of his 25 man roster. The Yankees may be giving better quality but Smith’s reputation is based on Phil Hughes and how he does going forward. And as much as we all love Phil, pitchers, even with his pedigree have the odds against him being a dominant pitcher. And after that its Melky, and Melky is sort of known commodity, granted a better value than Coco, but sort of on the same level talent wise. And the Yankees then refused (rightfully) to give up anyone that is arguably close to ready or the higher end guys who project to be studs.

    • zack says:

      Yeah, but the Yankees were perfectly willing to throw in assorted crap like Kalish. Lester and Crisp are both crappier than Hughes and Melky, so basically, this deal is based around Lowrie, Masterson, and Kalish being THAT MUCH MORE to trump a Hughes, Melky, Marques, and AG package. Please.So who would you rather stake your future on, Phil Hughes, or Jed Lowrie?

    • kris says:

      “Go for volume?” You mean the yanks can’t come up with a bigger bag of crap than the sox?

      First you said Lowrie “projects” to a ML SS next year. Then you said he is ML ready. Make up your mind.

      And as much as we all love Lestor/Masterson, pitchers, even with their pedigrees have the odds against them being dominant pitchers.

    • Eric Schultz says:

      Lowrie should be a major league middle infielder, though his defense at shortstop is supposedly mediocre. I think Horne has better stuff than Masterson (who doesn’t have much in the way of secondary pitches aside from a sinker). Plus, Masterson’s sinker wouldn’t play very well in Minnesota with the turf, I would think. Melky and Crisp are comparable players, though I might pick Melky due to youth and (for the Twins) price. Kalish is a legitimate high-ceiling prospect, but is very far away and was shut down after 23 games due to a hand injury. To me it comes down to this:
      Hughes and whatever 3rd player Cashman offered (Gonzalez? Marquez?) vs. Lester, Masterson/Bowden, Lowrie and Kalish. Hughes is by far the best player in this trade, but I understand the Twins wanting the Yanks to include another prospect in the class of Masterson, Lowrie or Kalish.

      Come on Angels, make a good offer. How about Wood, Weaver, Willits?

      • brxbmrs says:

        Crisp hit .256/.305/.363 away from Fenway and .225/.273/.296 on turf.

        Melk hit .276/.319/.427 and .254/.282/.358 – the #’s are close, but Melk is better in every category.

        Crisp is owed 12 mil the next two – Melk made 430K last year and isn’t eligible for arb until 09

        Crisp doesn’t have close to Melk’s arm, and he’s 5 years older. Crisp RF .307 vs. Melks .302, Crisp ZR .911 Melk .903 – very close.

        Crisp is the type of guy you take to get someone else (i.e. like the Sox did with Lowell to get Beckett).

        Twins are doing the Sox a favor in taking Crisp – pisses me off.

        Melk’s .180 in September killed his #’s and maybe he doesn’t improve much or at all, but Melk is the better overall player and probably costs you 10 mil less over two years – plus you can control him for 4.

      • Glen L says:

        I thought Masterson projected as a reliever? That would mean he doesn’t really need great secondary pitches, just a great pitch

        Plus the twins will have a new stadium before Masterson is ready .. which i presume will NOT have turf

        • bill says:

          I had heard that about Masterson as well. And Alan Horne has four plus pitches, so I would give him the edge in any comparison against Masterson. Bill Smith is smoking crack.

    • Greg says:

      lowrie is not a major league shortstop defensively, he’s a 2nd basemen.

  13. Glen L says:

    good take Steve S … i still think Min is getting a bad deal .. they should hold out for ellsbury .. crisp is relatively expensive all things considered and doesn’t seem to jive with the twins MO

    • kris says:

      Go right ahead minnie, get yourselves off with Lester+Crisp+who?. Look forward to irrelevance for the next decade.

    • Steve S says:

      I think people underestimate how much the Twins can actually spend. They arent the Marlins, so while Coco isnt exactly a bargain, he isnt pricey.

      I think if it were Terry Ryan, he would do the Hughes deal in a minute, but this is a brand new GM who has to trade the best pitcher in baseball. If I were him I would be a bit concerned about attaching my entire legacy to one player (Phil Hughes), as good as that player is. And all things being said, Phil had a nice first year but by no means did he establish himself. He projects better than Lester, but at this point Lester may be further along and able to help a team like the Twins sooner. And as I said earlier, if he can three major league players, its the safer bet than hoping Hughes becomes dominant. Im not saying he is right, but I think its a little ridiculous to say the Red Sox arent giving anything up. Rather, they are in a better position to make this deal. They already have 3/5 of their rotation set, not to mention Clay Bucholtz, who looked pretty good last year. They can give up Coco or Elsbury (who i think is very overrated) and still be in a similar position. The Yankees unfortunately need the depth in the rotation because they will be relying kids who have never made it through 35 starts and 200 innings.

      • kris says:

        “I think if it were Terry Ryan, he would do the Hughes deal in a minute, but this is a brand new GM who has to trade the best pitcher in baseball.”

        I get it. You are Bill Smith, GM, Twins.

        • Steve S says:

          Im not sure if you realize who Terry Ryan is

          • kris says:

            Im not sure if you realize what a fair deal is.

            • Steve S says:

              I think youre drinking the kool aid a little. Instead of glib answers why not make a point. Its easy to say Hughes is better than Lester and Melky is better than Crisp, and then dismiss all the other players. But the bottom line is the Yankees wont give up those fringe prospects and thats the difference. Not to mention the fact that they dont have one position player ready to start for next year, which Lowrie represents. I hate that Im actually arguing in favor of the Red Sox.

  14. Brian says:

    Looks like the Pajama Manager’s job just got a little easier. What a lame deal from Minny’s perspective.

  15. zack says:

    There are more rumblings about the Angels giving up on Cabrera and focusing that same package on Santana, which should easily trump the Sox offer…Let’s keep the ol’ fingers crossed!

  16. zack says:

    I don’t really care about the Sox having Santana, as I think the Yanks could still overcome that. But its the fact that they wouldn’t have to give up a single piece of their system that will cost them anything in the next 4-5 years that I really find galling. The Twins shouldn’t be in such a rush–demand Lester AND ellsbury or just wait, like they did to the Yanks

  17. Chris says:

    I want to know why the Yankees are asked for Hughes and Kennedy but the sox do not have to give up Lester and Ellbury

    Accoding to every scout/expert Lester isnt in the same League and Hughes who is moe comparable to Bucholz. I cant blame the Yanks fo pulling out if the Twins asked for Kennedy, but they should not have done it publicly because that just gives Boston more leverage in the negotiations. Hank in his infinite wisdom gave the Sox the opening to make this trade instead of just sayinf no pivately and waiting for an inevtibale call fom the Twins asking the Yanks for a final offer – where they could have and should have put in Horne or Ajax and another Btype playe — Gonzalez, Gardner, Marquez.

    The angriest guy in NY today is Cashman because Hank totally undecut him in this and took away all his leverage. Hank – get ove yourself – you did not WIN the AROD negotiations. Sure Boras wasnt involved but you still gave him 315 million dollars – You are not a baseball genius so keep your mouth shut and let your GM do his job

  18. Chris says:

    I am really at the point that I dont know if I can watch baseball next year – this deal has me so sick

  19. Travis G. says:

    Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

    via BPro at 5:15. that’s not possible, is it? (unless Ellsbury is the ‘CFer’)
    http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=6970

    • zack says:

      The only way for that package to work (notice there is no LOWRIE) is if the CF is Crisp. Obviously Carroll either forgot Lowrie, or its a package of Ellsbury, Lester, Masterson, and Kalish…Which at least would be a bit more reasonable for the Twins…

    • Joseph P. says:

      We at River Ave. Blues don’t buy a word of anything Will Carroll says. He’s been…how can I say this politely…fucking inaccurate for quite some time.

      (I cite an instance in May when Moose was supposed to go on a rehab assignment to Trenton, but threw a simulated game instead. Carroll said that Moose had a good rehab start in Trenton. Uh, sorry, but he blatantly made that up. How could he say he started in Trenton, never mind calling it a “good start,” when Moose has never pitched a game in Trenton?)

  20. Travis G. says:

    i didnt know that Joe. but if the deal DOES include Ellsbury as the CFer, i wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    • nmc says:

      Agreed. If it’s Ellsbury, I’m glad to see the Sox mortgage their future for Santana. I’ll love it when Alex or Jeter smashes a home run in the ALCS to end their fun.

      All the fears we had for Santana now are on the Red Sox… elbow injury-history, workload, drop-off last year, Fenway not being that great a park for LHP, 25 million a year, no prospects to replace Crisp/Drew, Beckett being infuriated/annoyed/a chipmunk.

      Let them worry about it. I fail to see how the addition of Santana means very much for the Sox… they already had a good rotation for the Postseason, but Dice-K/Schilling are by no means untouchable (I think Beckett is touchable as well, as the Yankees showed during the regular season).

      We’ll all laugh if his arm falls off in a year. And maybe, Phil Hughes/Joba Chamberlain will beat Johan Santana in Game 2 of the ALCS this year and we’ll laugh our fucking heads off.

  21. planet says:

    I will not believe a single propaganda quote until the signatures are down…

  22. Mitchell's Eleven says:

    Jo-who Santana? :)

  23. MS says:

    Will we all still laugh when he wins another CY Young award and the Sox win another WS? So much for all of this being a bluff by the Sox. Good luck beating the Sox in the ALCS with their rotation.

  24. Kevin23 says:

    Trade rumors are tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    Who the hell knows why a given piece of information finds its way into the public domain.

    And if this stuff is all true, then I say so what? We still have more money to spend than anyone else. All we need to do to be successful is to not make stupid business decisions. Keep the offense potent and the young arms stock-piled…good things are bound to happen. This is not Joe Torre’s team anymore. Girardi deserves a shot with the big three.

    • Dimaggio5 says:

      Thank God it’s not Torre’s team anymore – he is not a wartime mananger. LOL Girardi will bring much needed toughness and is more of a tactician.

      • LBA Prequel says:

        Hank: “You’re not a wartime consiglieri, Torre. Things may get rough with the move we’re trying.”

        Torre: “Maybe I could help…”

        Hank: “You’re out, Joe.”

        :p

  25. Yankee Fan in Chicago says:

    Given what they asked of the Yankees, a comparable Sawx package would be Laptop Thief AND Ellsbury AND Lester.

    This is a fucking joke.

  26. MS says:

    How about our 5 player package to match the Sox.
    Kennedy=Lester
    Melky=Coco
    Jackson=Kalish
    Horne=Masterson
    Gonzalez=Lawrie

    Are we that off? How is it that the Sox are gonna make this deal, but the Twins would laugh at our deal?

    • Ben K. says:

      It’s not that we’re off; it’s that the Yanks did not want to offer A-Jax and Melky in the same deal and the Twins wanted Hughes from the Yanks. Who knows why they’re so cool on Hughes? A few theories mentioned around here seem valid, but that’s the story. The Yanks wouldn’t make that offer. That’s why the Twins may have gone with the Red Sox offer. It’s still not definite yet.

  27. Jamal G says:

    Am I annoyed that a package of Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson/Khalish will get it done for Johan Santana? Sure. Knowing this, would I still want to keep Phil Hughes off the table of any deal? You Damn Skippy.

    I still find it a bit sucky that BOS doesnt have to give up Lester/Ellsbury in the same deal (if all these rumors are true) but what can we do? Any fear us Yankees fans have had of Josh Beckett evaporated over the last two seasons. We bitchslapped Dice-K every time he toed the rubber against us and even though Schilling does seem to get the better of us more often than not, as the #4 starter we wont see him as much. Im real interested to see how Santana will fair in Fenway park and playing in Boston come late September/October.

    I guess we’ll just have to “deal” with keeping together the Big 3/Melky/Horne/AJAX/Tabata.

  28. iYankees says:

    The Red Sox and Twins have reportedly come to an agreement. What a rotation that will be… *shakes head*… Click on my name to check out the story thus far.

    • LBA Prequel says:

      To quote from the MVN article which your link cited:

      I love Jon Lester and think he is another Andy Pettitte in the making, and John Farrell thinks so too. The Boston pitching coach recently told Sox brass that Lester could win 15-18 games consistently in his prime.

      I didn’t think Lester projected to be any higher than a 3rd man in the rotation, and doesn’t have near the same stuff as Pettitte.

      Masterson is a sinkerballer who could thrive in Minnesota

      I thought artificial turf was generally bad for sinkerballers? (I realize they are getting the new stadium, but still)

  29. LBA Prequel says:

    Am I annoyed that a package of Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson/Khalish will get it done for Johan Santana? Sure. Knowing this, would I still want to keep Phil Hughes off the table of any deal? You Damn Skippy.

    I still find it a bit sucky that BOS doesnt have to give up Lester/Ellsbury in the same deal (if all these rumors are true) but what can we do?

    Agree completely. I think if the Yankees come back to the table, any deal must not include Hughes. Period. They’ve dicked around the Yankees too much, and I’d call their bluff. Kennedy? Fine. Melky? Fine. But the Twins cute little action – which I still think is designed to goad Hank, Cash, and the Yankee Braintrust – to take a bag of Red Sox players, throw them at the clubhouse wall in Minnesota, and find one that sticks, doesn’t serve the Twins at all. For one, I hope the Twins GM takes the offer from the Sox, only so that in 10 years, he can be the guy who blew the deal for Phil Hughes.

    Basically, to sum it up, I don’t think the Red Sox and Twins are as “close” as ESPN is reporting. I could be wrong, but I think if the Yankees do stick to their guns, it will ultimately work out better in the end. Hopefully, if anything, the Angels get involved now that the Tigers snagged Cabrera and Willis, and throw their package at the Twins.

    The Twins can just sit back right now and take offers. I think, if I were their GM, I’d just wait a little longer and take the best package. Otherwise, if they settle for Lester and Crisp, I think they’ve made a bad decision, imho.

    Meanwhile, the Yankees should just avoid the temptation to blow it with a huge offer including Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, Horne, and Jackson, which I fear I’ll see tomorrow morning on the ESPN ticker. Seriously, Hank and Cash, stand your ground. I think, with the Tigers move, the Angels just got back into the Santana race.

    And if you are the Twins GM, you can do a whole lot better than Lester and Crisp.

  30. LBA Prequel says:

    As per LoHud and PeteAbe, Cashman is set to meet with the media in about 20 minutes (and that was posted @ 7:30 PM EST)…

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....n-emerges/

  31. LBA Prequel says:

    As per LoHud:

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....happening/

    According to Cash, the Yankees are out of the Santana race, and the only trades that may be made involving the Yankees are minor ones.

  32. Jeff says:

    The Sox have got us by the balls because Cashman has no idea how to negotiate… (see Clemens 28mil). It obviously doesn’t help that tweedle dumb was running his damn mouth to the media (hopefully he learned a lesson).
    We made it easier for Boston instead of harder. Wasn’t his point that Boston was running up the price? – hey pal they got him so it couldn’t have been too high. Also if running up a price is something that hurts the other team do you think we could try that strategy on them for a change?
    IPK + Hughes together was too much but Hughes and Horn weren’t and I’m sure that could have been a talking point.
    And for all you guys so in love with Hughes and Ajax… maybe you should see about having the minor leages played on TV. Cause our real team is gonna get nailed by Baseball’s new version of the Patriots ( who I hate as well – even though I don’t even watch football)
    Beckett v Wang
    Santana v Pettit
    Matsuzaka v Hughes
    Buchholtz v Joba
    The problem is you’re gonna see the top two four times and there is your series.
    In the end I think my words are falling on def ears… you guys love the “big three.” I’m high on them too but One for the best player in baseball and Melky plus some mid level prospects isn’t going to sink us as much as watching Santana pitch for the sox will.
    Anyone want to take some bets that the beloved Hughes is going to have more wins than Santana? If you think so I could use some money.

    • zack says:

      Where do these people come from?

    • LBA Prequel says:

      The Sox have got us by the balls because Cashman has no idea how to negotiate… (see Clemens 28mil). It obviously doesn’t help that tweedle dumb was running his damn mouth to the media (hopefully he learned a lesson).
      We made it easier for Boston instead of harder. Wasn’t his point that Boston was running up the price? – hey pal they got him so it couldn’t have been too high. Also if running up a price is something that hurts the other team do you think we could try that strategy on them for a change?

      Or…the Twins, for some strange reason, are willing to take less from the Red Sox (Lester and Crisp) instead of accept the initial offer of Hughes, Melky, and mid-level prospect.

      I don’t blame Cashman a bit here. It’s obvious the Twins have a hard-on for the Yankees, and if they want quantity over quality, so be it.

  33. gcvanbrynt says:

    A lot of negative energy here. Yanks have a much better offense then the sox. Manny and ortiz productivity is startig to dip. Our starting staff is in much better shape then last year. At the end of last season we were a better team then the sox. If we got past cleveland we could have taken the sox. Wang blew in the playoffs. We need one of the young guys to step up next year. 2008 will come down to our relievers.

  34. LBA Prequel says:

    If we got past cleveland we could have taken the sox.

    Keep telling yourself that…

    I bleed pinstripes, and am a big “Save the Big 3″ guy, but please. The Sox were the better playoff team last year, and look well constructed to keep rolling for another 3-5 years.

  35. Jeff says:

    I agree they are taking less but if you look at it close its not that much less. A lot of people think Lester is pretty damn good. And being a lefty helps. People only want to equate Buckolts to Hughes and thus you want to jump out and say Lester is only as good as IPK.

    I really think looking at the consequence of facing two aces against our hopefuls you do a little more to sweeten the back end of your deal. In the end I don’t think the players involved will have even close to as much impact as Santana will have playing for the Sox.

    In the end though I will be praying that our boys develope and quick cause we’re gonna need them. And if the Sox do get Santana we better just turn off the rumor mill unless it involves some shitty prospects going for bullpen help.
    I don’t want to hear a word about Haren and I don’t want to hear a word about Beddard… getting them will undoubtedly involve Hughes and now way is that worth it.

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