Jan
28

A few months late

By

The Twins now say they would like an offer from the Yankees for Johan Santana in exchange for a package centered around Melky Cabrera and Phil Hughes. I think they’re a little bit late on this one. Rookie GM Bill Smith is about to learn what happens when you overplay your hand. No more Santana today after this unless, of course, a trade goes down.

Categories : Asides
  • http://itsaboutthemoney.blogspot.com Jason R.

    Seems like we’re about to learn just how impetuous Hank can be. Seems like he’s chafing at the bit to overrule Hal and Cashman. Tell Bill Smith IPK and Melky…

  • http://itsaboutthemoney.blogspot.com Jason R.

    Also seems like I like the phrase “seems like”. D’oh!

  • Robert

    If Cashman is smart, and I believe he is, he isn’t going to offer up Hughes anymore. The Red Sox pulled Lester off the table so the Yankees should take off Hughes.

  • Barry

    Make shirts that say screw the santana trade and the keepthe big 3 on the back.

  • steve (different one)

    i have a feeling the yankees will make this trade.

    before you jump on me, i am not basing this on anything except a gut feeling.

  • http://yanksfansoxfan.typepad.com/ysfs/ Nick-YF

    If the Yanks trade Melky, what are they going to do about their outfield situation, now that Cameron and most decent outfielders are off the market?

    Also, what exactly is Cashman’s view. That he doesn’t want to trade any prospects for Johan? Or that he doesn’t want to trade a package that includes Hughes or Kennedy? Or that Kennedy could be included? If IPK is, in fact, traded, does that mean Cashman was overruled?…Or got what he wanted.

    • steve (different one)

      again, not basing this on anything, but i would guess that Cashman would make the trade if it did not include IPK. he knows how good Santana is, but he doesn’t want to trade Hughes.

      i *think*, if the trade happens with Hughes, it means he got overruled. if a lesser package got it done, i am not so sure.

      in other words, i don’t know anything. lol.

      as for CF, the Yankees *could* sign Corey Patterson. he’s not great, but for 2008, i am not sure he’s a huge downgrade from Melky. obviously Melky has a higher upside, but Patterson is very good defensively even if his offense is “inconsistent”, to be charitable.

      • steve (different one)

        again, not basing this on anything, but i would guess that Cashman would make the trade if it did not include IPK.

        i meant “if it did not include HUGHES”.

      • TurnTwo

        i have to agree with you. I’ve got no real reason to believe it will or wont get done, but there is something thats telling me that Johan will be a Yankee.

        if they can configure a deal so it does not include Hughes, I think Cashman would go for it.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      This is why I think that Bill Smith overplayed his hand. He waited far too long to make a move if he expects to get a Major League-ready CFer. With the replacements off the market, a team giving up a center fielder will have to scramble.

      As for the young guns, I think Cash is against trading any of the Big 3. I would believe that IPK is the one he prefers to trade the most, but I don’t think he’s too keen on making that move.

    • sciorsci

      They’ve been linked to Corey Patterson a little bit this offseason – he’d be a decent stopgap until AJax is ready. Or maybe they’d just see if Gardner can handle the role right now. He’s not all that different from Melky’s skill set, anyway.

  • sabernar

    I don’t think that it’s so much about the players that Hank would be giving up, but the 6 year $150,000,000 contract, not including the huge luxury tax hit.

  • Geno

    This is ridiculous. Smith’s negotiating skills seem to be backwards.

  • Jeff

    If Damond & Abreau come in camp in shape and Matsui’s knee is healed the outfield will be fine. Not the best but fine considering Santana is going to strike every one in the league out. We have the internal kids to play backup if need be – and they probably aren’t too much worse than what we have.
    I really don’t see this deal being done with Hughes involvedand at the same time if we look at the Mets best offer we could beat it without him. IPK, Melky, AJax, Gonzales, Karsteins/Igawa… That would be a lot for Smith to grab and we could afford to lose those players considering those mentioned will not push us into the WS like Santana would.

  • Bo

    If the yanks get Santana and dont have to part with Hughes you have to give Cashman mucho credit and anyone who bashes Hank needs to shut up.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Of course. That’s always a rather large “If…” right now.

      • Count Zero

        Agreed to both comments.

        One would think Hughes is definitely off the table now, but much like steve (different one), I could still see them doing the deal…hopefully we’re wrong.

  • Ivan

    Plus, people forget that Hank is half the owner of the Yanks people. He can’t make it go down unless Hal agrees with it.

    and from reports I,ve read, Hal doesn’t want the trade to go down.

    I be very surprise if not stun if Santana is traded to the Yanks for Hughes.

  • George

    I agree with Geno. Smith may have miss calculated the timing, the market and the player packages for Santana. One more point. Hal and Hank, both must agree upon all “baseball related moves”. So if Hal doesn’t agree, the deal cannot be made. Isn’t that correct?

  • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

    I’d get Smith at the bargaining table and just start laughing until he conceded that his trade request is now ridiculous. Far too late – the best thing the Sox could have done for us was to pull Lester off the table. Why would we ever give Hughes up now, when the only other offers are Coco Crisp + B prospects and the Mets’ quantity over quality?

    I can’t see Hank going over Hal and Cashman – I’d think that by now, Cashman has explained that Smith is hanging himself more and more as each day goes by. Melky, Kennedy, and a grab bag of prospects (maybe excluding Horne and Tabata) will still be the best offer on the table at this point.

    I want this to go down now. I love Melky (as anyone who follows my comments on here knows) but a Yankee rotation that contains Phil Hughes AND Johan Santana has me drooling, especially since, as RAB will tell you, we’ve got some outfield prospects moving up the ladder very nicely, thank you.

  • mustang

    I read MTR that some of Twins players quietly want Melky and are pushing for this deal. I agree with most of you here the Twins GM over played his hand. Now somehow they have to pull a deal that does not included Hughes that doesn’t make the Twins GM look like he got played.

  • Mr. Yankee!

    Anything think the Yankees can get Johan without giving up Hughes or IPK? Some kind of deal similar to the Muts with quantity… maybe:
    Horne
    Marquez
    Igawa
    Melky
    Austin Jackson
    Humberto Sanchez

    What do my fellow RABers think?

    • Zack

      Dear God thats a lot of players, way too many…

      I think people are overestimating Cashman and Hal’s role a bit. If Hank suddenly decides he wants Johan no matter the cost, I’m pretty sure the deal gets done. Period.

      That article also says that the Twins claim Lester is still on the table.

  • pete

    the mets have nothing to give up, the redsox are refusing to give anybody up. so why not at least try with something minimal, like Melky or AJax, Horne, Marquez, rather than a bombshell like Hughes, Melky, AJax, Horne, and Marquez?

  • nick blasioli

    i agree wholely with quantity for santana….afterall the yankees have quite a few good players in the minors as well on the team….do the deal…if smith finally breaks down and accepts….

  • Realist

    The Yank’s have Minny where they want them………I just hope they aren’t foolish enough to include Hughes ( I don’t beleieve they are? ) and/or both Melky and AJax.

    As stated before , I could see this happening , but hopefully wisely…..w/out Hughes.

    IPK
    Horne
    Melky
    Igawa

    Take it or leave it……………..

  • http://www.canyonofheroes.blogspot.com Mike Plugh

    The Yankees won’t trade for Santana at this point and neither will the Red Sox. Both teams tested the waters early on, but at this point they know that they don’t have to part with their big prospects because Smith waited too long. What both teams want is Santana on the open market in the offseason next year. The only way they will trade for him now is if Smith drops his expectations dramatically and gives him away.

    Smith’s only remaining move is to wait until the trade deadline and pray that one of the teams is desperate enough about missing the playoffs that they pull the trigger on a deal. The Red Sox won’t do that, but the Yanks might. That’s an awfully risky game to play because the downside is that you walk away with nothing for your ace. The reason that makes sense, however, is that the worst you will come away with, in terms of prospects, is what’s probably on the table right now after stupidly playing hardball all winter.

    Smith might be able to throw Santana, Liriano, and Bonser and compete for the post-season, so waiting for July might be the smartest move at this point anyway. The trump card is whether the Mets get desperate enough to put a valuable package together right now, which is what I think is going on. Smith wants either the Yanks or the Sox back in it, or at least create the perception that they’re in it, to drive up the price on the Mets. Cash and Theo are too smart for that shit though. As long as Hank shuts up a little, this will play out poorly for the Twins in the end.

  • Bo

    The Twins do not want to deal with this fiasco that will happen if he doesnt trade him. Everyday will be a circus and since he has a no trade clause they aren’t guaranteed a trade.

    The right thing to do would be to resign him. Isnt the name of the game frontline pitching? Its not like they have a billionaire owner or anything.

    • steve (different one)

      they just gave $75M to morneau. they have money.

      i’d rather spend it on santana than morneau, who is overrated, in my amateur opinion.

      • Ivan

        Steve,

        Justin Morneau is not overrated. He’s on of the better sluggers in baseball and is just as good if not better than Prince fielder or Ryan Howard.

        I can’t agree with ya on that one.

        • TurnTwo

          Justin Morneau is not comparable to Howard or Fielder. He’s no scrub, but Howard and Fielder are another level.

        • steve (different one)

          He’s on of the better sluggers in baseball and is just as good if not better than Prince fielder or Ryan Howard.

          better than Ryan Howard? are you sure about that?

          Morneau: .276/.340/.498 OPS+ 117
          Howard: .291/.397/.610 OPS+ 151
          Fielder: .280/.369/.546 OPS+ 131

          • steve (different one)

            Morneau: .276/.340/.498 OPS+ 117
            Matsui: .295/.371/.485 OPS+ 125

            Matsui is definitely not one of the better sluggers in baseball.

          • Ivan

            And how many times Ryan Howard struck out this year? 1,000 times last year.

            To say that Justin Morneau is not as good a hitter as Fielder or Howard is to me inaccurate.

            Did people say Morneau last year?

            Plus, you do know that Howard plays in a pretty friendly park too.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

              When your career OBP is .397, it doesn’t at all matter how many times one strike outs. Howard is so much better than Morneau. Not even close.

              • Ivan

                I like Howard also, but he’s also older than Morneau and playes in a great ballpark and with a better lineup than Morneau.

                I think it’s alot closer than what people think it is. Sure he may not have the pure power of a Howard or even Prince fielder but interms of a pure hitter, he ‘s just as good as those guys in my opinion.

                Plus, if you bring up the OBP% with Howard despite the K’s then you must LOVE Adam Dunn then uh?

            • steve (different one)

              Morneau: .276/.340/.498 OPS+ 117
              Howard: .291/.397/.610 OPS+ 151

              this comparison is a massacre.

          • Chip

            I could care less if Howard struck out 1,000 times per year as long as he does his job which is to drive in runs. I take Howard as my 1B for the next ten years over Morneau and don’t even question it. As for Morneau’s MVP season, he probably wasn’t even the best hitter on his team. The only reason he won it is because Papi and Jeter split the vote

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          I’ll take Morneau over Howard. He’s almost THREE years younger, plays in a park that suppresses his offense, and plays in a division with far better pitchers. If anyone’s overrated, it’s Howard.

          • steve (different one)

            Mike, on May 15th Morneau turns 27. Howard is 28 this season. they are 18 months apart and only 1 “baseball year” apart. not sure where you got 3 years from.

          • steve (different one)

            Ryan Howard:

            HOME: .285/.395/.613
            AWAY: .296/.398/.607

            those lines could NOT be any more similar. he is not a product of his ballpark. the dude is a monster.

            now, if you want to bring in defense, i am all ears. b/c Howard is a terrible 1Bman.

            but the original post only mentioned hitting.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

        I don’t know if “overrated” is the right word, but that money would have been better off going to Santana. It’s much easier for the Twins to replace Morneau’s bat than it is for them to replace Santana’s arm. It’s not even close in fact.

        For BP subscribers, Joe Sheehan wrote more about this at the end of last week.

    • RZG

      They survived the “circus atmosphere” last year with Torii Hunter so that’s not a major point of concern on the Twins’ part.

      There’s reasons to trade Santana but not for the reason you’ve given.

  • Nefarious Jackson

    Neal LaVelle has been a source of misinformation on Santana since november- take anything under his name with a huge grain of salt

  • jason

    realist – I think that is not a bad concept from the Yankees standpoint. I don’t know if the Twins would want Igawa, but perhaps a lesser prospect who can be easily replaced in the system i.e Steven White or George Kontos. This leaves Santana, Wang, Pettite, Chamberlain, Hughes as one amazing rotation. You lose a bit of depth by giving up Horne and IPK, but you have Marquez, Mcutcheon (sp?), Garcia, Sanchez, Brackman, Nova, Betances, Pope all rising through the ranks.

    • Realist

      Thanks jason,

      I only say that as a last ditch effort….I had seen where Igawa was a player that Minny would possibly want? I read where some felt he needed a “change of scenery(sp?)”….

      All I know is , as a businessman , most ask for more than they expect to recieve. So you offer much less to feel them out and see if you can meet in the middle?

      It wouldn’t bother me if the aforementioned trade went down…. as Hughes , Tabata , AJax , or Gonzo weren’t involved.

      Minny would recieve a player capable of playing all OF positions (Melky)
      A starter in IPK
      A starter in Igawa
      A possible starter in Horne

      All for a player that doesn’t want to play for you and can walk ( or veto a trade if not to NY or Boton? )…………..seems fair to me?

  • Bo

    Morneau only won the MVP award. He may not have the sheer natural power that Howard or Prince has but hes a pretty darn good player and def on the top tier of power hitting, middle of the order guys.

    And Tori Hunter is not in the same league as Santana. We’re talking about the best pitcher in baseball who is under 30 and lefty and durable. If you dont think there will be a circus in that clubhouse you’re nuts. After every start hes going to get asked question after question about his future. Every teammate will get asked daily.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Anyone who cites Justin Morneau’s undeserved AL MVP award as proof that he’s good should be banned from talking for a month. :)

    • steve (different one)

      you can be “pretty good” and still be overrated.

      i guess i should clear that up. i don’t think he is not good.

      Morneau is a “good” player. but i still think he is overrated.

      his MVP is exhibit A.

      • Lanny

        Check his stats in ’06. You can certainly say he deserved the award. Even though that should be Jeters trophy.

        • steve (different one)

          well, that was my point. Jeter should have won. or Santana. or Mauer. or Sizemore. or Dye.

          Morneau was only the 3rd most valuable player on his OWN team.

  • Realist

    Ooops! Boston not Boton :-(

  • Bo

    Anyone that puts Igawa as one of the frontline players in an offer for Santana should be banned from talking for a month.

  • jason

    Bo,
    That would have been the case months ago but not now. It appears that players from all teams are rapidly being removed from the table. That is why I think a deal like the one Realist suggests, perhaps with modifications, is appropriate at this juncture. The idea is for Minn. to ask for an entire farm system, the contra team to say you can’t have A, B, and C and then to meet in the middle. Where that middle ground is reached will depend on what it the perception of other teams offers and other factors. With Santana demanding so much money, the quality of players changing teams will be reduced. A somewhat similar example is the Dice-K signing. Because of the posting fee, the actual salary was much less than was originally anticipated.

  • Realist

    Bo , you must not know much?

    Igawa was talked about recently BY MINNY….

    So ban me for reiterating what was reported…

  • http://itsaboutthemoney.blogspot.com Jason R.

    Speaking of Igawa, I remain surprised that a NL team hasn’t made an offer for him. He’s priced cheaply per year and could be a #4 on most NL rotations.

  • Lanny

    Try selling Igawa for Santana to your fans.

    Now that is funny.

    • Realist

      Another dope who doesn’t READ…………….MINNY HAD interest in him…meaning Igawa. This wasn’t pulled out of the air!

      Plus it isn’t Igawa for Santana…only a complete idiot would read that into what is being said.

  • Lanny

    How do you know Minny ahd interest in him?

    Were you in Minnys front office? Were you in the scouts meeting???

    Stop assuming things. Or you really believe everything you read in a paper?

    Moron.

    • Realist

      READ BELOW!

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

    Easy with the attacks and the name-calling, folks.

    To clear things up, it’s been reported that the Twins would take Igawa as the fourth piece to a deal fronted by much better prospects. It’s also been reported that Cashman turned down an offer for Igawa from the Padres this off-season because he’s not yet ready to write off the lefty. None of that’s ever been confirmed by any substantial statement, but that’s where things stand.

    • steve (different one)

      was that this off-season? i thought it was last year during the waiver deadline. the Padres made a waiver claim, and were basically willing to take Igawa for nothing in exchange. the yankees passed.

  • Realist

    Ben,

    I am not trying to start trouble but when a complete idiot calls me out….I have no other choice but to retort.

    Igawa being included in the deal is OLD news and if certain people want to call updated people names OR crap on them , they open themselves up to a retort.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      All I’m saying is that there’s no need for anyone to call anyone else here a name. Make your point without calling him an idiot. Maybe he didn’t see those articles a few months ago. We publish a lot of stuff at RAB, and it’s really easy to miss something.

  • bkight13

    The offer should be:
    IPK
    Jackson or Tabata
    Another young arm

    take it or leave it

  • Colter

    If the Yanks don’t want to trade for Santana because of the money, which seems to be the case, then they’re just like all of the other teams who can’t afford him and should no longer be mentioned as one of the teams that could get him.

  • Colter

    Yes, Igawa was mentioned as a player that the twins might have an interest in, but I think most people assumed correctly that he would be towards the bottom of a pile of players the Yanks would send to minny, not at the top. In other words, Igawa ain’t replacing Hughes in a trade. You guys are dreaming who think we can get Santana for George Kontos or whatever(in fact I think REALIST is probably kidding, with some of the shit he’s saying. He’s making fun of the people who think we’re going to get santana for B prospects, the name gives it away). Do you think Boston or the Mets would let us get Santana for Igawa?

  • Lanny

    It’s not just the money. It’s the money plus the Grade A prospects.

    They shouldnt have to pay twice for a soon to be free agent who they will have to give above market value for.

    Minny shouldnt expect a package like Balt will get for Bedard because you get bedard for 2 yrs at cost before you have to pay for him.

    A guy like Hughes is worth way more than 1 yr and full price after of Santana.

    Even IPK is worth more. You get him for free basically for 7 yrs. Thats where the money comes in.

  • Realist

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz….

    IPK
    Melky
    Horne
    Igawa………….bottom on the list of “prospects”

    IF this isn’t enough to get Santana and the luxury of paying him obsecene money , then pass.

    Sorry Lanny , you are not an “idiot” , in fact I enjoy reading your comments. My wording may have led you to misunderstand my point and that is no excuse for the “idiot” remark.

    The MORON

  • pete

    if the latest on bedard (that is, that no deal has been reached) is true, then what would it take to get him? If Cash puts an offer out for Bedard, the twins could lower their asking price.

  • Jeff

    Pete – Bedard isn’t staying in the division.

    Any team that is goiing to get Santana is going to have to overpay for the right to negotiate… that said Santana is an opportunity that might be worth more than what people are giving this trade credit for.
    Marquez
    Ajax
    Gonzales
    Horne
    Igawa
    Karsteins
    … that would be a big grab for Minny and one I think we could afford. When you think about it most of these players are not going to get the chance to have a big impact on our team. And for those of you who want to keep Ajax out of the deal… think anout the Twins perspective would you make this trade for without him?

  • Adrian-Retire21

    Jeff-

    Those players will make me sleep at night if they are on another team.

    AJAX,Horne and somtimes Marquez gets overhyped by Yankees fans.Yes AJax might be good but good outfieldrers are easy to find in the trade and free agent market, look at Abreu.Alex Rios in two years will be a free agent but A Santana will never be this easy to get i. the next tens years.

  • Jeff

    Sleeping at night is a good thing right? Are you saying a six player deal wouldn’t get it done? I’ve heard some scouts like Marquez more than IPK. And the Twins were asking that Ajax be put in the original package with Hughes.
    To me this deal would be a lot like what the Mets are suposedly in the lead with and again landing Santana is more than worth it to me.

  • mustang

    I heard on WFAN’s Mike and the Mad Dog that the Twins are still asking for Reyes from the Mets. If thats true the Twins Gm is a nut. God know what he asking the Yanks for.

  • Mike R.

    In related news. The Diamondbacks now say they would like an offer from the Yankees for Randy Johnson in exchange for a package centered around Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang. I think they’re a little bit late on this one as well.

    • steve (different one)

      speaking of, what’s up with Randy? have there been any stories about him? is he going to pitch this year?

      • Mike R.

        Last I heard he wasn’t going to pitch. Barring some miraculous recovery he will retire. I can still here the Cashman haters whining about the Johnson for Ohlendorf, Jackson and Gonzalez trade.

  • Jeff

    You forgot about Vizcino who was a key part… don’t know why anyone would wone about that trade. I’m not a huge Cashman fan but the deal had to be made. Has anyone really complained about that one or are you making it up?
    I think Olendorf has promise as well.

  • nick blasioli

    if the yankees dont get off their duffs…and do something to improve the team,…well you know what will happen…with the tigers, redsox ..indians..angels already as good if not better along comes the mariners with a pitching staff to match any other team as long as they get bedard…the yankees have to somehow work out a deal for santana to balance the scale…sure its nice to keep the kids for future teams.but, you spend over two hundred million dollars just to be competitive…just doesnt do it for me…this is a new regime that iam not going to enjoy…

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      So you enjoyed 2002-2005, when we just paid players a ton of money and watched them fail?

    • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

      You have to find a balance between prospects and acquiring veteran talent. I agree that the Yankees are the same team from last year, for better or worse – but at the same time, when you have guys like Hughes, Chamberlain, etc. that don’t just fall off of trees, you need to carefully weigh the options of being good now, or being *great* 3-5 years from now.

      That being said, I think the Yankees/Cashman have done a great job. They keep giving Smith rope to hang himself with, and the noose gets tighter every day. If we would have made the trade a couple of months ago – we’d be out Hughes, Melky, Kennedy, and other prospects. Now, I suspect that if a trade happens, we can keep Hughes (which is key, imho) and give up less long-term.

    • steve (different one)

      i thought you said you were done posting until spring training?

      too bad, i was looking forward to reading the same exact post for the 1000th time.

  • Jeff

    Joseph – In my view 2002-2007 was due to a lack of a quality ace & a dominant pitching staff… but if you feel Santana is a waste of money and resources fine… I’ll be laughing next year when he wins another CY Young but then again I’ll be pissed to think we could have gotten him.

  • nick blasioli

    right on jeff…cant anyone else see through this…i wonder if hank, hal and brian read these blogs..they should…maybe they will learn something…