Tuesday Hot Stove League Open Thread

Moving history across the street
What would happen if the Yankees didn't bring back Derek Jeter?

The time is slowly passing, but now we’re just 48 hours or so away from when free agents are free to start negiotiating with new teams, the real meat & potatoes of the Hot Stove League. It makes you feel like a kid on December 22nd, oh so close yet so far away from Christmas.

The Hot Stove wasn’t so hot today, with the only actual player news involving Cy Lincecum & Salomon Torres’ retirement. Yeah, the Cubs reportedly offered $50M to Ryan Dempster, K-Rod’s agent made a radio appearance, and Matt Holliday’s dad made it be known he’d like to see his son in the Bronx, but that’s just a bunch of bark with no bite. Just like Hank.

Use this thread to talk hot stove or whatever else is on your mind tonight. The Knicks are in San Antonio, and #14 Ball State is taking on Ben Roethlisberger’s alma mater out in Oxford. Other than that, you have some early season college basketball games to check out. Good thing House is on.

Moving history across the street
What would happen if the Yankees didn't bring back Derek Jeter?
  • Ivan

    He’s right. Hey if he can reach 3/4 of that potential it would be a success.

  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    That’s not anything new. Heading into the 2007 NCAA season, people were split on who was going to be the #1 overall pick in the June 2007 draft (between Brackman and David Price). However, the signs of a potential TJS procedure caused Brackman to fall into Damon Oppenheimer’s waiting hands.

  • dudeyoyo
  • dudeyoyo

    The guys at Nomaas, say we should have got Scott Olsen.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      It’s always easy to say that as a person with absolutely zero knowledge of what conversations took place between Brian Cashman, Larry Beinfest and Michael Hill.

      • Thomas

        Also didn’t Girardi hate Olsen?

        • steve (different one)

          yeah, i think it was more about Willingham than Olsen.

          i don’t think there is any way that Girardi would take Olsen back. the guy was a terror in Girardi’s clubhouse in FLA. total a-hole.

          and he’s not a very good pitcher.

        • Ivan

          okay didn’t know that one.

      • DCR

        As soon as another GM begins to say ‘Phil Hughes’ Cashman hangs up the phone.

        • Jack

          I actually don’t believe that’s true.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Yeah, I think he waits to hear the horrible proposal where we give up Phil Hughes and another player for a mediocre non-star before he hangs up the phone.

            Out of courtesy.

            • Steve

              Think he uses the old “I have to go to the Dentist” line? Like he would rather have root canal than listen to the GM’s proposal?

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                Listen here dear, step to the rear
                Find yourself a seat, buy yourself a beer
                Eat some pretzels, go play some videos
                Thank you for your time honey, but hoe, I gotta go
                I think I lost my coat, and plus I’m double parked
                I thought you was my girl, you see, I can’t see in the dark
                Anyway I’m out, out is where I be
                I’ve got to step, “With the viscosity”
                When you see a honey by the strobelite
                Black I hope you got good sight
                For honey that you see, like a Shakespeare soliloquy
                May or may not be, all that
                In fact, quite wacked
                With the grill that makes you stop tracks
                But neither here nor there fear
                Unless, of course, you don’t care
                Listen baby girl, let me say it slow
                I.. HAVE… TO… GO…
                Not to dis, but lets disperse
                Yo, I’ll see you later, unless I see you first

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      The grass is always greener. How dare two teams make a trade without consulting the other 28 GMs first!

    • Steve

      Considering how little they went for, its not a hideous argument. Here it is-

      “Florida traded Josh Willingham and Scott Olsen to Washington yesterday for a package of three minor leaguers, none of whom is a better prospect than a guy like Jairo Heredia. Willingham has a career 117 OPS+ and plays solid defense. Olsen is a troubled kid, both with injuries and his attitude, but despite the obstacles he threw 200 innings with his left hand last year and his career path appears eerily reminiscent of Oliver Perez. We can only hope that the reason Cashman didn’t jump on these two intriguing players is because Jeremy Hermida is the next Marlin to be auctioned off. Even if he is, the price on the package the Nats got was ridiculously low, and raises some questions about what Cashman’s thinking was here. “

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        There is no argument. It’s “they didn’t get traded for a whole lot, so Cashman should have got them instead.” Typical crap you hear after every trade.

        The Yanks have enough players with nagging injuries and no position like Willingham as it is, they don’t need another one. Olsen has good upside, but he’s got attitude problems. People bitch when Phil Hughes & Ian Kennedy have bad April’s, but what about Olsen’s last three years?

        • DCR

          I am not saying Paul Byrd would have been some sort of savior for the 2008 Yankees. With that being out of the way, he was/is way better then the Ponson/Rasner two headed dragon and he cost Boston only money. That’s what people were bitching about.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

            Byrd was pretty bad for Boston, nearly 3 baserunners every 2 innings, and an ERA near 5. If Cash picked him up, people would be complaining that he wasted time and money on that guy.

            It’s because Boston got him. If the Jays or Angels or Rangers picked him up, no one would care.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

              I would prefer Byrd, but I’m not going to get hung up about it. It’s a minimal upgrade.

            • Steve

              People were also complaining about the Yanks not getting Colon for the 2 weeks in May where he was pitching well for them, before he ended up on the 60 day DL, as he always does.

              But hey, this is NY. People complain about everything. Somebody once said you could give people in NY free water and they would complain it had no taste. So “people complained” is like saying the sun came up. It’s not much of an argument.

            • DCR

              Its not that I am hung up on it. There is just a legitimate argument as to why people were complaining that Cashman let Byrd go to Boston.

            • steve (different one)

              the Yankees were 9.5 games out and 6 behind Boston at the time.

              the Red Sox were 3.5 game behind TB.

              it made sense for Boston to spend the $2M for Byrd.

              it didn’t really make sense for the Yankees to.

              sometimes you have to know when to fold and stop throwing good money after bad.

              the difference between Byrd and Ponson really wasn’t worth very much when you are only talking about 8 starts.

            • DCR

              I didn’t want Colon but explain to me why Cashman will sign Victor Zambrano and Eric Milton to reclaimation project but then he lets pitchers like Colon and Freddy Garcia go elsewhere?

            • Steve

              I was actually responding to DCR. But the way my post nested below Jamal’s post, it still makes perfect sense but now has a totally different meaning.

              Wow. Cosmic, man.

            • Derek

              it’s called an opinion, you’re very overdramatic

  • nick blasioli

    dam i hope cashman gets off his duff early and starts bidding on the fa s .;..it seems like in the past that they wait and wait and lose out…you cant do that this year..to many teams interested in the same players…
    hope we get cc and tex…..

    • Steve H

      you hear those crickets?

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones
        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            DAMN YOU!!! YOU’LL RUE THE DAY, TREBEK!!!

    • J.R.

      I dont think the Yankees are sitting back and waiting on CC.

  • tony from the bronx

    bad news I was told that the Yanks are weighing 3 or 1.The brain trust is in NY.to decide should they go all in for CC or try to sign more of the lesser F.A.I hope they remember,when it comes to f.a.it is always best to pay for the super star.Hoping that they remember that the all the Jaret Wrights of the world do not equal one CC.

    • steve (different one)

      if the Cubs offered Dempster $50M, then there probably aren’t going to be ANY “reasonable” contracts for pitchers this year….

      • Steve H

        call it the Carlos Silva affect. If your Dempster, and Silva gets $48 mil, you certainly expect way more than that.

        • Mike Pop

          I would love to get any of the pitchers we would look into for that kind of deal

      • Ivan

        That is why it’s good to develop and keep young arms.

    • Ivan

      Is Lowe better than CHW? No, but were gonna pay him 15M like he’s a front-line guy and he’s not especially in the AL East, where he struggled last time.

      Sheets is a better pitcher with the stuff that translate well in the AL East. Yes he has risk, more so than most pitchers but at a reasonable contract he’s worth the risk.

    • Steve H

      Sheets hasn’t been any better than Lowe in the NL though, has no track record in the playoffs or the AL and can’t stay healthy. Lowe on the other hand is always healthy, has pitched well in the AL East and has pitched well in the playoffs. Ben Sheets has never gone into game 7 at Yankee Stadium on 2 days rest and fired 6 innings of 1 hit ball. Lowe has.

    • DCR

      You’re not getting Sheets are a ‘reasonable contract’. Any deal he gets will be full of incentives that will bring his contract up to his proper value if he reaches them. Lowe struggled in 2004 but had an average 2003 and spectacular 2002.

      The Yankees paid Andy Pettitte $16MM the past two years. Is he a front line guy?

    • DCR

      You’re missing the point. It doesn’t matter of Ben Sheets is the new age, white Bob Gibson if he can’t take his turn in the rotation everyday. His injuries have ranged from his back to elbow to some weird thing with his vision a few years ago where he couldn’t see straight on the mound. If you want to take a chance on a pitcher whose injured a lot just sign Burnett. At least he has a resume in the East.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      The Yankees paid Andy Pettitte $16MM the past two years. Is he a front line guy?

      It depends on what you mean by a “front line guy”. If it’s FIP, Andy Pettitte’s 3.71 mark ranked higher than hurlers such as Cole Hamels, Felix Hernandez, James Shields, Matt Cain and Carlos Zambrano. Also, Jake Peavy ((3.60)in the N.L. West, mind you) and Jon Lester’s (3.64) respective FIP’s are just 0.11 and 0.07 points lower than Pettitte, respectively.

      In terms of command, Pettitte’s BB/9 rate (2.43) was lower than such hurlers as Zack Greinke, Brandon Webb, Jon Lester, Jake Peavy, Tim Lincecum, Carlos Zambrano, Felix Hernandez, Chad Billingsley and Matt Cain. Also, Johan Santana’s BB/9 was just 0.01 points lower than Mr. Pettitte.

      So, what exactly do you mean by “front line guy”?

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      *In terms of command control

    • DCR

      I should have clarified myself there. I wasn’t trying to say Pettitte isn’t or hasn’t been good. I think the Yankees should be careful with him though. His elbow and back issues the past two seasons are troublesome.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Control = being able to throw the ball over the plate
      Command = being able to throw the ball where you want it (on the black, at the knees, etc)

      It’s possible to have good control and bad command, but not vice versa.

    • Miles Roche

      Is Control the definition of throwing the pitches in your arsenal for strikes and Command the ability to throw the specific pitch with the sharpness and break that he would prefer?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Essentially, yes. Control is throwing strikes, command is throwing quality strikes, if that makes sense.

    • Steve

      Command is your ‘stuff’.

      Control is where you put it.

      Its really not complicated.

      So if a pitcher is throwing strikes, hitting the catcher’s glove and still getting clobbered (Hughes) he doesn’t have good command that night.

      If a pitcher doesn’t know where the ball is going, falls behind hitters all night then he doesn’t have good control.

  • Steve

    Well, depending on how you view the award you could have given it to someone in a pennant race. Someone that pitched games that meant something. I know that’s not his fault, but its the same reasoning as to why you don’t give the MVP to someone on a last place team. For me, he would have had to have been far above all others (Like Steve Carlton in 72) and that wasn’t the case this year. Webb and Santana both had excellent, comparable seasons for pennant contenders.

    I would have given it to Johan myself.

    • Steve

      Don’t get hung up on the award names, they’re meaningless. Cy Young is generally considered the Pitchers award, MVP is the hitters award. And “unquestionably” is grossly overstating your case.

      Here’s Lincecum
      IP 227.0 H 182 R 72 ER 66 HR 11 BB 84 SO 265 W 18 L 5 WHIP 1.17 BAA .221 ERA 2.62

      Johan
      234.1 H 206 R 74 ER 66 HR 23 BB 63 SO 206 W 16 L 7 WHIP 1.15 BAA .232 ERA 2.53

      Webb
      IP 226.2 H 206 R 95 ER 83 HR 13 BB 65 SO 183 W 22 L 7 WHIP 1.20 BAA .242 ERA 3.30

      Its six of one, half dozen of the other. I go with someone who pitched in games that meant something in cases like this. Its much easier to pitch in games with no pressure. Johan led the league in ERA and innings pitched, and still walked 21 fewer than Lincecum.

      • Ivan

        Johan FIP was nearly a run higher than his actual ERA and Lincecum was the same in fact his FIP was lower than his actual ERA. Johan was sorta lucky this season.

    • Derek

      how are the mets pennant contenders when they havent made the playoffs in 2 years

  • Mulls

    what i wanna know is why cashman passed up on meche? that was the guy to get 5 years 55 mill looks pretty good.

    • Steve H

      All of the people that can’t understand why Cash didn’t get player x and y, or make these trades realize it’s a 25 man roster right? What are we going to do with all of these people that Cash “didn’t go after”?

    • Ivan

      Can we stop with the Yankees should of gotten this guy, or had this guy and this and that and etc. Please it’s just real inrational and really inrelavent talk at this point.

      • pat

        this never would have happened if we traded for santana

        • Steve

          These posts would have never happened if we would have traded Jamal for Peter Abraham when we had the chance.

          • pat

            its not his fault all mets prospects are middling

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Is “phukthephills” appropriately snarky and irrelevant? I don’t want us getting jobbed in that trade.

    • steve (different one)

      what i wanna know is why cashman passed up on meche?

      hilarious.

      at the time, even the ROYALS admitted they overpaid because it was hard to get free agents to come to KC.

      that contract was like the model for overpriced pitching at the time. it was a joke. but inflation has made it look ok.

      the guy had NEVER had a 200 inning season with an ERA under 4.50 in his career before he signed that contract.

      hey, good on him and good on KC. i’m glad it worked out for them.

      but suggesting that Cashman was negligent for passing on giving a 5 year contract for Gil Meche is the height of revisionist bullshit.

    • Steve

      He actually pitched well enough to earn that contract, which we all thought was crazy at the time. He always had good stuff, maybe they saw something the rest of us didn’t. He’s certainly improved since he’s been there, why I don’t know.

    • Steve

      Everyone’s a genius after the fact.

      I want all these brilliant folks to tell us who will pitch great NEXT year. Because that’s what they’re asking Cashman to do, and nobody has a crystal ball.

    • Steve H

      Why, with our centerfield void did he pass on drafting Sizemore? Cash sucks, end of story.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        Seriously. Hello, Matt Holliday, 7th round, anyone paying attention up there???

    • steve (different one)

      seriously.

    • Jay CT

      And at the time Moore was laughed at for overspending. So what Cashmans problem was is that he wasnt a fortune teller. He really should have studied tarot cards in college and figured out that pitching was going to skyrocket in price in the coming years, and that a below average pitcher was going to become useful. And I am not a Cashman guy, but some people just ask too much.

      Between fortune telling and making trades that only help the Yankees and no other teams in baseball, some fans are ridiculus

  • Steve

    Ivan-

    “Sheets is a better pitcher with the stuff that translate well in the AL East. Yes he has risk, more so than most pitchers but at a reasonable contract he’s worth the risk.”

    I agree. I cant see making much of a distinction between Burnett and Sheets, either as pitchers or for their health history. So I would limit my exposure and take the guy who will go for the shorter deal. By all accounts Sheets is expecting to get 2-3 years whereas Burnett is looking for 4-5 years. Plus, Burnett is 3 years older than Sheets.

  • Mike Pop

    Destiny from the rock of love charm school ? Her or Brandi C ?

  • Mike Pop

    Man what the Padres did to Hoffman is pathetic… Didnt even meet with him

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      The FO said they’d still meet with him. A friend in SD told me they were getting torn apart in the papers and on the radio today.

    • Mike Pop

      He’s only second to Tony Gwynn

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        Uh uh. Hoff > Fat Tony. I’m telling you, Hoffman’s a God there.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      Also, Hoffman had the highest K/9 rate (9.13) since 2003 (11.00); lowest BB/9 rate (1.79) since 2004 (1.32); and highest K/BB rate (5.11) since 6.63 (2004). I don’t think the situations are comparable because Hoffman is actually a quality Major League reliever; Bernie Williams was not at the time (when you look at both his 2007 and 2008 seasons).

  • Derek

    and you see no drug deals in the city?

  • Steve

    Since we got into the misuse of pitching terms here, anyone else have any other misused/misapplied sports terms, that you hear constantly which drive you nuts?

    I should probably give up on this one, because I’m horrendously outnumbered and its become common usage at this point. But referring to anything in Baseball as “Offense” and “Defense” is my pet peeve. Those are Football terms, and ill suited for Baseball. Baseball has three sides, hitting, pitching and fielding. When people say the “Yankees need to improve their offense” I wonder if they want them to sign Terrell Owens or something.