May
30

A mid-Saturday Joba roundup

By

On Thursday we spent a couple of posts talking about Joba Chamberlain‘s role. While we talk, analyze, and debate, the Yankees are surely doing the same. They want to make sure they handle their roster and farm system in the manner which benefits them best in both the short- and long-term. It’s not easy, of course, with different roster permutations bringing different results.

Since Ben, Mike, and I have made it clear what we think the Yankees should do, perhaps today we should listen to what the Yankees themselves are thinking. Thankfully, they’ve provided some fodder in the way of quotes. We’ll start with Joe Girardi via Pete Caldera:

Quickly, here’s what Joe Girardi said when asked about the possibility of Joba Chamberlain heading to the bullpen to accomodate Chien-Ming Wang: “That is not something we’ve talked about.”

As Pete notes, that’s not to say that they won’t talk about it. For now, though, it appears there are no plans to mess with Joba’s role. Which is a good thing. As I wrote on Thursday (in the very first link in this post), the Yankees have no reason to make any moves right now. They have a good problem. With Wang, Hughes, and Chamberlain still out to prove something to some degree or another, the Yankees can afford to move forward in this manner and reassess in a few weeks. Not many teams have this luxury.

The new Newsday beat writer Erik Boland has some quotes from Cashman on the situation; “It’s just a topic we have to deal with,” Cashman said, stating the obvious. But then he lays into B-Jobbers (again, our euphemism for those who want Joba in the pen):

“That’s all crap,” he said. “Wake up and smell the coffee. If he’s on national television on ESPN and throws 91 on the 22nd pitch, why would you think if he comes in in the eighth inning protecting a 4-3 lead [he'd throw 96]? Stop, he’s a starter.”

It’s hard to get more definitive than that. “Stop, he’s a starter.” Good to see Cashman sticking to his guns on this one. It’s frustrating to watch Joba struggle during the first innings of his starts, but the idea is to keep working him and get him used to the role. The man has, after all, been a starter his entire life.

Meanwhile, Tyler Kepner compares Joba to Johan Santana. Others have made this comparison too, and for good reason. Santana started off in the Twins’ bullpen, though he certainly wasn’t the designated eighth inning guy. The Twins saw the talent they had on hand and transitioned Johan to the rotation in mid-2003. By the time the playoffs started he was their Game 1 starter, and the next season he won the Cy Young. Despite Joba’s relative struggles in the rotation this year, his ERA is still two full points better than Santana’s through each player’s first 21 career starts (each had his 21st start at age 23). Joba also has a better K/9 at that point, and has fewer walks in more innings pitched.

Still, the best commentary for this comes from a comment to Kepner’s post:

I no longer believe that Joba should be moved to the bullpen. Instead, as I’ve posted twice elsewhere, I strongly believe that he should be moved completely out of the Yankees organization. He is an over-rated distraction. if the Yankees spent one-fourth the energy they’ve spent on Joba on either Wang (who is a proven winner) or Hughes (who shows great character) or Aceves (who shows great resolve), the team would be much better off. We would be best served by just trading Joba for a potential Mariano replacement—if anyone would be willing to take him off the Yankees’ hands.

Quick! Get this guy on Jimmy Fallon’s writing team. They’d increase the comedic talent tenfold with this MSS Rao guy.

In all seriousness, I’ve had a discussion like this with Mike, Ben, and a number of friends over the past few days. It boils down to this: 1) The Yankees could trade Joba straight up for any closer in the game right now. Not only that, but the other GM would be in a rush to get it done, in case Cashman decided to change his mind. 2) If the Yankees did trade Joba to another team, he’d be in that team’s rotation. The question, of course, is why Yankees fans want their team to play by different rules. I understand doing things differently in an attempt to exploit inefficiencies. But since when is putting a guy in the bullpen at the cost of a long-term rotation cog exploiting an inefficiency?

We’ve presented our argument numerous times, and obviously feel it is a stronger one than the Joba to the bullpen counterpart. It doesn’t mean we’re right, per se; baseball isn’t always black and white like that. But because of baseball’s random nature, it’s best to find the optimal strategy and stick to it. If you follow a good process, good results will follow, even though they won’t follow in every instance. Still, the debate will rage on, even if Joba turns a corner and starts pitching into the seventh with regularity. Hell, it will probably rage on even if he gets to 100 wins and picks up a Cy Young. To that extent, Joe Girardi has the last line:

“The good thing about the presidential debates is that they end. … This one doesn’t.”

Categories : Players
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

    my dad is a firm joba-to-the-pen guy… and in no coincidence hes a HUGE sac bunt fan (every time theres a guy on first base with nobody out, the yankees should bunt) and also thinks batting average is the be-all and end-all of offensive stats (he of course hates swisher)… i lost all will to argue with him… hes a great father and i know he means well, but hes just an idiot about baseball

    the thing about the joba debate is this: nobody is changing their minds at this point…

    people that think he should start are going to keep thinking it and people that think he should pitch the 8th inning twice a week or going to keep thinking it… at this point you’re on one side or the other, so im not sure its time well spent to argue about it anymore

    • kSturnz

      forget joba to teh pen, let’s trade him for a future closer!!!

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

        could he net a felix heredia type?

  • Kevin

    I think the thing is that in some ways the short term and long term needs of the team diverge here. For this one season (once Wang gets his act together) it is arguable that having Joba in the pen makes sense. Long term his value as a starter is far greater. I say this cause CC, Andy and AJ are gonna be starters. That leaves Hughes, Wang and Joba. Wang has won 19 games twice, so he is a starter. Between Hughes and Joba it does make more sense to move JOba to the pen. For this one year. The thing is that thinking for just one year is plain dumb. You have to think for the next 10, and JOba as a starter is the way to go. Thats not even arguable.

    Now if on August 15th Joba has 140 innings as a starter and the other 5 starters are all healthy and pitching reasonably well it would make some sense to move Joba. Especially if the Yanks are in comfortable playoff postion, which I optimistically think they will be. I say this because by that point Joba would have enough innings to allow him to be a 200 inning starter next year, which is my main concern. Also because unless Joba severely outpitches one of the top 4 guys, he wont be in a postseason rotation anyway.

    The fact is the Yanks have 6 quality starters now, which is a damn nice thing for a team that just last year had to use Sidney Ponson. The Yanks are going to have to creatively manage Joba and Hughes innings anyway, as neither is throwing 200 innings this season. The best case scenerio for the Yankees is that all the pitchers stay healthy and for the postseason they have a rotation of Sabathia, Wang, Burnett and Pettite and then Mariano, Joba, Hughes and Bruney in the pen. That’d be a tough team to beat. That is ofcourse Joba or Hughes really puts it together as astarter this year and forces their way into the top 4.

    • Tank the Frank

      “The thing is that thinking for just one year is plain dumb. You have to think for the next 10, and JOba as a starter is the way to go. Thats not even arguable.”

      Completely agree. In the end, what it comes down to is if you value the 8th inning/closer role or starting pitching more.

      Anyone with any sense would pick starting pitching. YOU NEED STARTING PITCHING! Imagine if Joba had started in the bullpen this season because we had this “set rotation.” Well, that all went by the wayside once Wang got off to a disastrous start. Andy is now having back problems…. Burnett has been on the DL nine times in his career so there’s no guarantee he’ll stay healthy. Anything can happen. CC could catch a line drive off his arm, Hughes could come down with another freak injury. These are things you can’t predict… but they happen every season in baseball.

      • kSturnz

        it also makes sense to option Hughes or Joba to make sure they get their innings… If wang is ready, which he is not.

  • Bill

    Has anybody consulted with Joba as far as what he prefers?

    Last time I checked he wants to be a starter.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

      not that it really matters to the yankees or the FO, but yes i think hes on the record for wanting to be a starter

      • Ivan

        Also, u have to take in account that Joba who wants to be a starter cuz hey financially it’s pays much more than a reliever. Joba isn’t dumb, if guys like Carlos Silva or Barry gettin big bucks and Joba feels he’s betta than those guys then his thinking is hey I wanna be a starter and in couple years time, I’ll get paid.

  • Tank the Frank

    Is it just me… or is Brian Cashman the balls?

  • Ivan

    This stuff is tiresome. Lets get real, Joba is a starter period and has been a starter his whole life. Not only has he been a starter but highly regarded starter as well when he was in Nebraska and in the minors posting terrific #’s.

    The only reason this is a debate cuz thick headed ny fans saw him as a reliever and of course dominated as one and thus can’t change their premist on him being a starter.

    In Tampa, I seriously don’t that there is a debate that Price should be in the BP. For crying out loud he’s already better than Pelfrey and yet nobody wants in the BP. The big problem wit the B-Jobbers is the full out hypocrisy and the lack of legit points. There nuttin more than people who want instant gratification and think short term.

    • V

      “The only reason this is a debate cuz thick headed ny fans saw him as a reliever and of course dominated as one and thus can’t change their premist on him being a starter.”

      Exactly.

      I really have to say, riveraveblues.com posters aside, Yankees’ fans are really, really, fucking stupid.

      Sox fans too, for that matter. They think they can get a Lou Marson for Brad Penny :rofl:

      • Mike Pop

        I loved Laporta for Bowden.

  • JobaWockeeZ

    Starting pitching is overrated. The bullpen is where its at. CASHMAN YOU SUCK! Y U GET TEH CC WHEN WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN TEH K-ROD?!?!?!? We can use Joba for one out, K-Rod for the second out and Mo for the third out in teh 8th! the 8th >>>>> every non-8th inning left in the season combined

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

      ya know, youre like the 50th different guy ive seen do it, so im not trying to pick on ya… but ive never understood the whole misspelling “the” to look as “teh”

      i kinda understand the “!!1!1!1eleven!!” jokes (though they are tired and stale) and i even kinda get the “suxor” thing… but never did i understand “teh”

      im genuinenly curious… is it a reference to something? did lanny once do it and it snowballed from there?

      • whozat

        It’s a common internet meme. “teh” for “the” is a really easy typo if you’re typing quickly, so it’s basically the same as “!!11!!!”

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

          ahhh that makes sense… kinda like those morons are just so excited about their horrible joba-to-the-pen idea that theyre typing so fast and dont care about the mistakes, as long as their worthless ideas are entered onto the blog as quickly as possible?

          i could see that…. thank u for clarifying it, ive always wondered

          its actually a little funnier now

          • whozat

            Exactly

      • JobaWockeeZ

        Well “teh” is just a common typo I see. Like with me I speed type so I’d say “teh” even if I don’t mean it. But in this instance I use it to mock people who think Joba should be in the bullpen because that line of reason is ridiculous. It’s not just used in RAB, I’ve seen it at other places.

  • jim p

    Joba–DH!

    He does like a bit like Ruth, after all.

    A couple of his starts ago, one of the stations put up his ERA since going as starter, and he was 6th in the major leagues since then. And he hasn’t found his stride yet! What the heck are people thinking?

    • JobaWockeeZ

      Are you telling me he’s one of the best 6 pitchers of all of baseball? Are youa kidding me? [...]
      wait a second ANDY PETTITTE IS A STARTING PITCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

      The only reason why people want Joba in the bullpen is because the bullpen “sucks” when we only blew like 2-3 games which one of which is Mo’s fault.
      Plus we do not have anyone to replace Joba with in the rotation since Wang I believe isn’t 100 percent. The only option would be Aceves but ehh.

    • Tank the Frank

      Are you trying to say he’s one of the top six starting pitchers in baseball!!! His ERA is FOUR!! His WHIP is 1.6 !! THAT’S ATROCIOUS !!!1!!!1

      /Francesa’d

      • jim p

        Since he first started. As it says in the article
        “In 21 career starts,…Chamberlain … with a 3.25 E.R.A.” You got 6 starters with better over that span?

        Take out two bad 1st innings for 7 earned runs at the beginning of May, and his ERA this year is 2.70 instead of 3.97. So, yeah, one of the best starters in baseball since he became a MLB starter.

        http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....rID=501955

  • LiveFromNewYork

    I want to hear Cashman say, “This is NOT up for discussion and will never be up for discussion so STFU.”

    What is it about the delusional Mike Francesa that can’t wrap this around his fool head?

    • Tank the Frank

      Cashman basically said that in the quote. “Wake up and smell the coffee.”

      And then he backhanded the guy.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

      What is it about the delusional Mike Francesa that can’t wrap this around his fool head?

      ratings.

      • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

        Word. That’s what I am going to do on my radio show now. Say how Josh Beckett, CC Sabathia, Brandon Webb and every other ace should have been in the pen because there would have been an inordinate amount of legendary closers.

        • LiveFromNewYork

          You have to go off your meds first. then drool and howl.

  • V

    I’m a huge Joba fan, and I don’t want to trade him, but it would be a neat thought experiment to figure out what, exactly, you could trade him for.

    • whozat

      Pretty much anything. Except a guy like Longoria, or Lester perhaps. Guys that are almost as young and a bit more proven that are under team control for several more years on a team that can afford it, they might not be available.

      • V

        Heh, here’s something for ya – Joba+Hughes+AJax for Adam Jones+Wieters.

        Would you do that?

        Makes my head hurt to even try to evaluate that.

        • Drew

          Eh… I would’nt want to give up two starters.

          • whozat

            Yeah…it just creates such a hole right now.

            That said…those are two young, really good up-the-middle position players that you can build around for YEARS.

            Cano-Jones-Wieters would be a young core to die for…but they’d need starting pitching, and this deal would basically ensure that they’d have an old rotation for years to come.

            • Drew

              True, I’m watching the Muts game right now. Kicking around the thought of Hanley in pinstripes…

            • V

              Agreed, but fun to kick around ;-)

              Also, doubt the Orioles would be up for that – they have a solid corps of young pitchers climbing the ranks as we speak.

        • steve (different one)

          awesome hypothical idea.

          yes, i think i’d do it.

          but it would really hurt.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

            respectfully disagree… its definitely very tough to say no… i just fear it would lead us to the likes of 2004-2006 rotation wise: struggling for the jaret wrights and al leiters and ponsons of the world

            as much as id love to have jones and wieters, i dont think i could ever go back to those days… they were insufferable

  • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

    Wait, Why are we even discussing this now? It’s not going to happen. I’m sure Mike Fatcesa’s opinions are not important to the Yankee front office. So please. Let’s stop. I tried to see the other side of the argument and it can be valid but as long as he continues to keep the team in the game, IT’S FINE! It isn’t like Joba is coming in and giving up 6 runs every time he comes out; and sure he isn’t going deep into ball games but he is keeping them in a position to win just about every single game he pitches.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADvb3yyhwM Slugger27

    you know what the most annoying part about it is? if joba had never come into the 07 season as a reliever, this debate would never exist

    it would never occur to people that a guy with that high of a ceiling and that much talent/stuff should be a reliever, it would never cross their minds… imagine if the yanks never took him out of his long-time role of starter just to patch a hole with the big league team and keep his innings on a leash

    this debate would never have existed :(

    • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

      That is exactly right slugger. I said that some where else, I can’t remember where. That was the biggest mistake they could have ever made if this debate actually bothers them. We all got excited watching a flame thrower approach. I just wonder if Mo wasn’t pretty close to the end of his career if we would be having this discussion after EVERY FRICKEN START HE MAKES!

      • Chris V.

        Yeh i said the same thing in a comments section the other day. Not only would there be no debate, he would probably be even farther along as a starter. He would have spent the first few months of last year as a starter in AAA and would have come up to the majors, instead of transitioning mid-season from the bullpen. he would have had 1 1/2 years of minor league starting pitching and everyone in new york would love him right now as a starter. It was a dumb decision to bring him up in 2007 as a reliever.

  • boobie

    I just find this funny because the guys who want joba to the pen probably believe that this is as good as joba will be as a starter…ever. Last time I checked you don’t peak as a 23 year old. He’s only going to get better and most importantly hes going to get smarter (pitching to contact etc).

  • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

    Oh and another thing. People like to compare IPK to legends like Smoltz, Maddux, Clemens ect.. How about throwing Joba in that argument instead of IPK(Which I an not exactly sold on).

    • whozat

      Wait…who does that?

      • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

        EVERYONE does. Ask Ben. Anytime I say IPK has no future he throws the patience argument out there with the legends I mentioned.

        • whozat

          “Anytime I say IPK has no future he throws the patience argument out there with the legends I mentioned.”

          You’re misunderstanding the point. Saying “You have to be patient with young pitcher; even the very best weren’t amazing right way” is not saying “Ian Kennedy is the next Maddux.”

          • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

            Yeah. I think you are the one missing the point.

            • whozat

              Nope.

              Ben’s argument that “You have to be patient with young pitchers; even the very best weren’t amazing right way” is a good one.

              Your point that it should be applied to Joba is also a good one.

              Your thought that Ben’s argument is equivalent to saying “Kennedy is as good as Greg Maddux” is incorrect; no one is saying that. At least no one rational.

              • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

                Yep. Let me rephrase what I said so you understand you’re the one misunderstanding. Ben’s argument/comparison of a YOUNG IPK and Maddux should be applied here. Not everyone is going to be an ace out of the gate because there are tons of things to be learned with experience and in Joba’s case is trusting the defense a bit more, not wasting 2 strike counts as often and so on..

                • whozat

                  …and you’re still missing the point.

                  There’s no comparison going on. The point is merely that it’s exceedingly rare for pitchers to show up and dominate at age 23 or so. Even if they’re supremely talented, it’s still rare. Cases in point: Maddux, Clemens et al.

                  Thus, we should not be surprised if young Ian OR young Joba or young Hughes or young Lester or young Grienke struggles early in his career. That is the only thing that’s being said.

                  There are no comparisons of talent levels going on (or at least there shouldn’t be). No one’s saying Kennedy will be an ace, ever. However, we ARE saying that judging a pitcher’s eventual career off of his first 70 big league innings is ill-advised. Cases in point: Maddux, Clemens, et al.

                  That’s it.

                • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

                  No you are again indeed missing the point TOTALLY. This has absolutely nothing to do with one pitcher or the other. What is is would be the situations. So I’m done here. Sometimes it’s better not to argue with ignorance.

                • andrew

                  Sadly, I think you are ignorant one here… it might help to get off your high horse for a few minutes and join the rest of us “ignorant” people down here.

            • http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

              Nope. It’s you. Trust me.

              • http://rbiradio.blogspot.com/ Joey H.

                Nah.

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

    Can we just take a moment to appreciate the sheer lunacy of that comment on the Bats blog? He writes, “I strongly believe that he should be moved completely out of the Yankees organization. He is an over-rated distraction.” He then goes on to say how the organization is spending too much energy on Joba.

    This supposed Yankee fan doesn’t understand that the team is hardly spending any energy on Joba. Rather, talking heads, bloggers and fans are using their own energy to debate something that shouldn’t really be debated. The team has made up its mind and feels good about it.

    But, hey, let’s trade Joba to minimize the distractions.

    • whozat

      The media does this all the time…create a huge ruckus, and then report on the ruckus as though it’s a story unto itself.

    • JobaWockeeZ

      The goal of the Yankees is to win, not develop starting pitchers.

      /Lanny’d

      • Scooter

        I’m sure Lanny’s saving up all his nuggets of wisdom for the next Yankee loss

        Not sure if this was posted here – from Bryan Hoch’s wrapup last night:
        http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy

        Pettitte agreed with a suggestion that Aceves could fill an important role much like Ramiro Mendoza did when Joe Torre was calling the shots from the dugout, while Jorge Posada pointed to the mound presence of Orlando “El Duque” Hernandez and said Aceves compares favorably.

        “He’s like a bull,” Posada said. “He goes out there and really, he reminds me a lot of El Duque. It’s just his demeanor and the way he goes out there and pitches. He’s very good.”

        Sounds like Rebecca is prescient

    • Ivan

      If he really wanna miniminze the distraction why don’t the yanks trade A-Rod………oh wait.

    • Andy in Sunny Daytona

      “There’s something about Joba that I just don’t trust.”

      /Custer’d

      • whozat

        wait, what? Who said that?

        • Andy in Sunny Daytona

          I shouldn’t have used quotations. My bad.

          /Selena’d

          • Anonymous

            Nah, you got it right.

            /reliablesource’d

    • steve (different one)

      that comment is jaw dropping batshit insane.

      my favorite part is the comment about Hughes: “(who shows great character)”

      oh, by all means, we can afford to ditch Joba then.

    • LiveFromNewYork

      Because the New York Yankees have no other distractions.

  • Drew

    I hate this debate. At least Cash and Joe seem to be adamant in their stance.

  • http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

    We should trade Joba for a “Manny del Carmen type”.

    /Gammmons’d

    • Some call me…tim

      We should trade Joba for a “Manny del Carmen type”.

      /Gammmons’d

      Fixed.

  • Bryan W

    I wanted Joba in the rotation at the beginning but I couldn’t understand why he started to throw so many curveballs to start at bats. He would constantly fall behind 1-0, 2-0 before he threw his fastball and he was getting himself in trouble with the pitch count which kept him from going deep into games. He blew guys away out of the pen and he’s not pitching aggressive enough as a starter. Maybe he wants to be a starter and could someday be an ace but he needs to get back that mentality to go after hitters and get outs quickly as possible. If he can’t do that then maybe there’s no other choice but going back to the pen. There’s no shame in that and just look at a few names who made the conversion from starter to closer: Dennis Eckersley, Dave Righetti, John Smoltz,Eric Gagne, and of course Mariano Rivera. Those guys made a great living out of being in the bullpen and becoming all star closers. Joba has the potential to be one too if that’s where his future lies.

    • V

      You do realize that not one of those pitchers was a 23 year old potential ace-in-the-making with a clean bill of health when moved to the bullpen, right?

      Eckersley was 32, and coming off the worst season in his career.

      Dave Righetti to the bullpen was a stupid, short-sighted decision that hurt the Yankees in the short and long-term. He’s a key reason why they SHOULDN’T move Joba. He was moved because there were ‘too many starters’. Tell me – how many championships did the Yankees win with Righetti as closer? How were their pitching rotations?

      Smoltz had arm injuries. As soon as the Braves felt he could handle it, he moved back to the rotation.

      Gagne was mediocre as a starter, and had already had Tommy John surgery.

      Rivera was switched before he could really show what he had as a starter. Who knows, maybe he would have put together a Pedro Martinez stretch as a starter? We have no way of knowing.

      • V

        Heh, from Baseball Prospectus on Mariano, before the 1997 season:

        “1997

        He had an amazing year. Started as a hard-throwing prospect, finished as quite possibly the most important player in baseball in that his dominance, or more accurately the threat of it, dictated the flow of the postseason. Rivera has a great fastball and not much else, which is why his current role may actually be perfect for him, allowing him to go through the lineup once but still be used more than a typical closer.

        Recent history tells us that 100-inning relievers disappear quickly, but there are reasons to believe Rivera will be an exception: 1) despite the high IP total, he wasn’t used in an abusive way. No 70-pitch outings or being used for 25 pitches four straight nights; 2) he was a starter, so he’s used to a higher workload than the relievers who have burnt out and 3) he doesn’t throw a dangerous pitch, like a split-finger or slider. Give Joe Torre credit for this one: Rivera was handled masterfully.”

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          Notice the key party: “Rivera has a great fastball and not much else…”

          That’s not at all Joba’s profile, and it’s why these calls to put Joba in the pen because of Rivera are misguided.

  • Jake H

    I’m going to love when Joba turns into an ace or #2, then see if people still want him in the BP.

    • V

      Exactly.

      I just find it amazing to compare his starting career to Santana, Beckett, CC, etc., and he’s right up there with each of them or better in ERA, WHIP, K/9, etc.

      Yeah, he walks too many, and he doesn’t pitch deep into games, but not many 23 year old studs are free from those problems.

      • Jake H

        How many 23rd year old kids dominate in the hardest division at that age? Hardly any.

  • My Pet Goat

    This is like the evolution/intelligent design debate. Why are you even giving this argument the time of day? Joba-to-the-pen is a patently erroneous, short-sighted, and obnoxiously LOUD argument. It seems insecure to constantly talk about this. You think Cashman is holding his ground? Against whom? Beat writers? Mike Francesa? Yeah, he’s gotta dig in and defend his position against a group of people that have for the past decade failed to put his head on the chopping block. He’s just flat-out annoyed at the journos for asking this dumb-ass question.

    So you only fuel the fire and give legitimacy to the Joba-2-the-pen proponents that troll through your comments section. Do us all a favor and stop making these posts. In fact you should institute a rule, that all Joba-to-the-pen in other threads will be removed. Let’s talk about the log-jam at DH, the problem’s at catcher, Swish’s slump, the presence of Bret Tomko. Anything but the Joba debate.

    • My Pet Goat

      sorry, Joba debate should read: Joba “debate”

    • Drew

      We talk about that stuff all the time. If RAB wants to further their point about B-jobber non sense I’m all for it. If you don’t like the headline, you don’t have to read it.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      Do us all a favor and stop making these posts. In fact you should institute a rule, that all Joba-to-the-pen in other threads will be removed.

      Stifling discussion and debate runs counter to the known socialist leanings of RAB.

      • Esteban

        yes, more free speech like socialist cuba

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          What does Cuba have to do with it? The People’s Republic of River Ave. Blues has its own brand of socialism.

    • whozat

      We’ve already talked about those things too.

      Re: Tomko…Apparently he’s someone Cash has thought could succeed as a reliever for a couple years now. That said, Girardi has used him once in the last 11 days, so it’s clearly not a roster spot that’s being effectively used. I’d probably dump Veras for Melancon right now, because I’m honestly more interested in seeing what Tomko can do out of the pen than I am seeing Veras do the same goddamn thing he always does: walk people.

  • Tony

    Isn’t the plan for this year to have Joba in the pen down the stretch? No way in hell is he starting into October with that innings limit. The Yankees haven’t ever commented on this.

    • whozat

      If the Yankees haven’t ever commented on it, how would we know what the plan is down the stretch?

      • Tony

        I don’t think they’ve commented on it, but I might have missed something. I’m just anticipating the complete and utter shitstorm that will produce.

  • LiveFromNewYork

    I just need a few more delusions to get my own radio show like Mike Francesa. If I can just howl “Joba to the pen!” for endless days, I’m sure they will sign me to a radio deal.

  • touchtoneterriost

    Jake H:

    Are you gonna say to Jorge Posada and Goose Gossage how they were wrong about Joba.I love how these bloggers and journalists who never played above T-Ball in grade school know Joba is a for sure ACE like this site thought “The Big Three” was a sure thing in 2008.

    Jorge on CenterStage on YES said to Michael Kay that Joba is a Closer keep him there.And like Michael Kay you guys wouldn’t say anything back to Jorge because he’s a baseball guy who caught Joba.

    Until Joba can dominate like he did as a reliever he useless as a 5 inning Kazmir JR guy.And don’t forget we got him only because he was injury prone which he has been since he got here.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      Why do you have to make your point while insulting others? It’s actually a bannable offense. But that’s besides the point. You seem to feel as though all bloggers are lazy statheads who never played baseball.

      I played through high school and could have played in college too. But since I had no future on the field, I followed through with other activities instead. And you know what? At every level, our starting pitching was more valuable. I’d have no problem saying that to Jorge or Goose Gossage either. Just because they played doesn’t make them smarter than any of the rest of us when it comes to baseball. You don’t gain wisdom by being a player on some good teams.

      If you really think Joba is useless as he is right now, then I have to wonder who really knows nothing about baseball: the “bloggers and journalists who never played above T-Ball in grad school” or you. That’s not a tough question really.

      • UWS

        Also, hasn’t Posada recanted his B-Jobbing ways recently?

    • UWS

      ….And this, folks, is why we should never let the terriosts win.

  • Observer283

    This is so exhausting. I really don’t think I have ever been so flabbergasted by the new york sports media. This debate is patently ridiculous until Joba proves he will not live up to his potential as a starter. He was drafted as a starter. He dominated the minors as a starter. He has gotten of to an unusually good start in the majors as a starter. He is 23 years old. 23. Yes, the Yankees could use another shut down guy in the bullpen. You know what else would be nice? A cost-controlled ACE who can provide you with front line production at bargain basement prices. For years.

    So unbelievably stupid. So dumb. I normally can find some merit in opposing arguments. I just can’t see it here. Can’t. I can’t believe people could be so short-sighted. Make him an “eighth inning guy” for a marginal improvement in the 2009 Yankees rather than developing him into an ace. Ridiculous.

  • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

    great post. I agree. I just wrote last night on how I love that vashman’s showing a set of balls. it was the msising quotient in my brian cashman teh awesome equation

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  • dan daniels

    stay on topic

  • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

    Hey that’s usually my job, Daniels. Although I usually choose the (admittedly unfunny) retort: “The human head weighs 8 pounds.”

    (Sorry Ivan, but he’s right… That comment couldn’t be more random.)