Open Thread: Who is the next Yankee HOFer?

Yanks appear out on Chapman
Coaching staff set to return in 2010

Another year has passed without a Yankee entering the Hall of Fame. Not only that, but there aren’t any Yankees currently on the ballot who stand a fighting chance. Don Mattingly, though he improved his vote total from 11.9 percent last year to 16.1 percent this year, has just a few more years of eligibility, and chances are he won’t approach the 75 percent threshold. So who will be the next player to wear a Yankees cap in the HOF?

Bernie Williams? He last played a game in 2006, so his time will come soon enough. But will he get the vote? Certainly not on the first few ballots, and even after that it will take a Jim Rice effort to get him in. If he’s on the ballot in 2012, I don’t expect to see him get in before 2025, if at all.

Roger Clemens? He last pitched in 2007, putting him on the 2013 ballot. Two questions here: 1) Will the voters put the steroid allegations aside? 2) Is there any chance he goes in as a Yankee? He did win two World Series in the Bronx, as well as his 300th game. But, since he spent more time with the Sox than any other team, chances are he’ll go in with their cap. But even then, chances are he’ll spend a few years in limbo.

Mike Mussina? He’s slated for the 2014 ballot, and he certainly has a case. But he spent a year and a half longer with the Orioles, and those were generally more productive years. Five times he was top five in the Cy Young balloting with Baltimore and only once with New York. Again, it’ll take a few ballots for Moose to make his case, and there’s a good chance he never gets in. But if he does, I bet he dons orange and white.

Beyond those three, we’re looking at active players. If we’re choosing among them, it’s pretty obvious that Mo gets the first nod. He and Derek Jeter will get in on the first ballot — and A-Rod should, though we never know how the voters will go on that one. But, since it’s almost a certainty that Jeter plays longer than Mo, it’s safe bet that Mo goes in first. Since he’s a first balloter, he’ll probably get in ahead of Bernie and Clemens.

So, barring unforeseen circumstances, I think we can reasonably predict that Mariano Rivera will be the next Yankees representative in the Hall of Fame.

With that, enjoy the open thread for the evening.

email
Yanks appear out on Chapman
Coaching staff set to return in 2010
  • Salty Buggah

    After Mo, ,A-Rod, and Jeter and maybe Posada, next Yankee HOFers will be:

    – Teixeira (if he gets to 500 HRs and he has a good defensive rep so that’ll help if people bring up him being a 1Bman)

    – CC (assuming he doesn’t opt and doesn’t get hurt, he should pile up wins with the Yanks)

    – Joba (that’s right, fuck the B-Jobbers and haters)

    – Jesus Montero (legendary beast)

    – Melvin Croussett (most obvious)

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      CC will be the interesting case. He’s certainly on a HoF path right now, but how many years will he actually be here in pinstripes? That’s the question. He’ll need to pitch out the entirety of his 7 year deal here to warrant wearing a Yankee cap, minimum. Probably needs more.

      He could end up like Mussina: two fairly evenly split halves of his career with two separate teams. Tough call on the cap question.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        Do you think he’ll opt out? I’m not very good with all the contract shit, so I have no clue.

        BTW, I agree with everybody on this list except that Robbie Cano should be added.

        Yanks have the potential to really get a fine, strong young core. We already have a decent one now.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

          What he may do is opt out and then sign a new 4-6 year deal at a better AAV with the Yanks.

          All depends on how the next two years pan out.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            So what? Does he stay if he does really well, or really bad? And is it possible that he could pull an A-Rod and opt out, but we resign him anyway?

            I hope we do. Me likie my CC.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

              Does he stay if he does really well, or really bad?

              If well: no.
              If bad: yes.

              And is it possible that he could pull an A-Rod and opt out, but we resign him anyway?

              Highly.

              • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                So we’re hoping as Yankee fans, for the A-Rod option. Okay then.

                In theory, the 2009 Yankees could have Jeter, Mo, Tex, CC, Cano, A-Rod, Joba, and Hughes al go into the HOF.

                If that actually occurred I wonder how that would change this team’s place in history, if at all.

  • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

    What about Jorge?

    • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

      After Dawson, why not let everyone in?

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        Jorge has a much more compelling case, IMO.

        • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

          I’m just saying the bar has been lowered yet again.

          I also think Dawson’s election is a slap in the face at the Sabermetric crowd. Lowest OBP ever elected to the HOF. All of the good metrics scream mediocre. Another popularity contest election for the well-liked Dawson.

          • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Eric

            ooh, TYU catfight

            • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

              Meow what is so damn funny?

            • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

              Oh, stop. Matty is one of my faves and I was actually the one who suggested him to Mo.

              • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

                I truly appreciate it, Steve.

                /mushy.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                  GET A ROOM, YOU HOMOS!!!

                  /IronHorse’d

          • JGS

            I think Rice and Dawson both were slaps in the face to saber-minded people, but at the same most of the same people voted for Blyleven, who is all but guaranteed election next year

            • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

              I’ll have to see next years list, but there will be some very strong candidacies coming up soon, which can sap support from other guys. Though when you get as close as he and Alomar did this year, they pretty much always get in.

              • JGS

                pretty sure everyone who has ever gotten between 70 and 75 has gotten in the very next year

                next year’s first timers are:

                Rafael Palmeiro
                Jeff Bagwell
                Larry Walker
                John Franco
                Juan Gonzalez
                Benito Santiago
                Kevin Brown
                John Olerud
                Bret Boone
                …and a whole bunch of other guys who have no chance in hell

                there are no slam dunks in there (except Palmeiro, but he is going to get McGwired), so I gotta think Alomar and Blyleven are locks

                • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

                  Bagwell’s slam dunk, no? Walker should be, too.

                • JGS

                  Wow, Bagwell was better than I remember him being, and I remember him being pretty damn good

                  I still think Alomar and Blyleven are locks for next year. Bagwell should be, but who knows?

                  as for Walker, how did he finish 10th in the 1999 MVP voting after the majors in all three slash categories?

                • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

                  I also think Kevin Brown could be this generation’s Bert Blyleven.

                • JGS

                  that should read “after leading the majors”

                • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

                  Thanks for that. OK, then Blyleven and Alomar should have no problem next year.

                  The strong candidates I was thinking of were guys like Glavine, Piazza, Maddux, etc. All of whom are probably still a few years off. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa will be upcoming as well, but nobody knows what to make of them.

                • Zack

                  Bagwell went to my HS so +1 for him

                • http://www.teamnerdrage.com dr mrs the yankee

                  In case anyone sees this…

                  The ballot deluge begins in 2012 and everything will be all clogged up until at least 2017.

          • A.D.

            The interesting thing is I was flipping through his “comparables” on B-Ref, solid list of names, until I actually looked into the numbers and found that his OBP was something like 20-30 pts lower than the avg of the closest 10.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

      Jorge won’t get in on the early ballots if he gets in at all. Mo’s a first ballot entry for sure. That’s why I left him off.

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        Yeah, I think if Jorge gets in, it might take a while. He deserves it, though. He’s been the finest offensive catcher not named “Piazza” of the last 15 years.

    • Chris

      If you look at Dawson’s first 12 seasons and compare them to Jorge so far:

      Dawson: 1596 G, 6800 PA, .811 OPS, 122 OPS+
      Jorge: 1594 G, 6312 PA, .859 OPS, 124 OPS+

      Considering that Dawson was a good defensive CF for most of that time and Jorge was a poor defensive C I don’t think there’s a significant difference.

      • MikeD

        Really? Who says Jorge was a poor defensive catcher? I’m not saying he’s a great defensive catcher, but there is certainly a wide gulf between those two choices. Roger Clemens and his 350+ wins said Jorge is the best catcher he’s ever had. Andy Pettitte and his 229 and counting wins also said the same. Mo also seems to like Jorge.

        So basically because AJ didn’t like pitching to him, suddenly Jorge sucks behind the plate, even though he was the starting catcher for the past decade for a team that made the playoffs in 9 of the ten seasons, won the AL Pennant four of those seasons, and was World Champions two of those seasons? Oh, and the one season the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs was the one season that Jorge missed because of an injury.

        Sanity, folks, sanity.

        • JAG

          To be fair, although catcher defense is difficult to quantify with advanced statistics, Jorge is certainly not a good defensive catcher. He might not be Piazza bad, but he’s certainly nowhere close to Mauer or someone like that. A couple of years ago, Varitek gave him a run for his money because, although Tek was not as good offensively, he was far and away superior on D. Now, of course, he can’t do either.

          Anyway, point is, Jorge is average at best as a defensive catcher. Do I think that still makes him a HOF candidate? Possibly, partly depends on how his career wraps up and how much the voters see Dawson as a precursor. Remember that, although Dawson was a good defensive CF, catcher offense carries a LOT more weight then offense at pretty much any other position (except pitcher, I suppose. A pitcher who averages more than 10 HR and a .300 OBP per year would be pretty impressive). So, if Jorge’s offensive career matches up favorably to other non-catcher Hall of Famers, i think that makes Jorge a pretty solid HOFer. Maybe not 1st ballot, but still a good case.

          -JM

  • JGS

    Jeter will be next

    Mo will play until he is 60

    • Marcos

      Jeter will probably play until he’s 60 too…

      • JGS

        80 then

  • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

    Mariano will not retire. He will ascend into Heaven.

    • Hughesus Cristo

      Mariano will not retire. He will ascend return into to Heaven.

    • thurdonpaul

      ietcvm and after Mo ascends, his son takes over for him :)

  • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

    Oh and to continue with the theme, Mo won’t get in first because when he’s done closing, he’s going to move to SS and take Jeter’s spot.

  • danny

    heyman just said one of his reasons for not voting for bert blyleven was bc he never lead the league in wins.

    Oy!

    • Salty Buggah

      Heyman is valuable for the scoops, horrible for baseball analysis. Kinda like PeteAbe

    • JGS

      head, meet desk

    • Salty Buggah

      Oh and Heyman is better at watching baseball than everyone else. He truly watches baseball

      • JGS

        unlike all those whippersnappers living in their mothers’ basement

    • Accent Shallow

      I can live with a Hall without Blyleven in it. And besides, he’s almost certainly going to go in next year.

      Preferring Jack Morris over Blyleven, though? Yikes. Maybe if all you look at is 1991 World Series Game 7.

      Fun fact: Blyleven actually beat Morris in the playoffs in 1987. How’s that for some shit?

      • JGS

        and then came back on three days rest to pitch game 5 when Morris, with his team facing elimination, did not

        but Morris threw a complete game in that game that Blyleven outpitched him. Gave up 6 runs, but hey–complete game

    • vin

      He’s just saying that to annoy everyone… he’s gotta be.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Gimme a sec. I’m gonna take Heyman’s article and gallimaufry that shizz.

  • Thomas

    Melvin. The first active player to be inducted in the HOF.

    Just kidding.

    But seriously, Melvin, he will be the first active player inducted into the HOF.

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Rebecca-Optimist Prime (Optimovelist Primus)

    Honestly, I could see Jeter retiring before Mo. Although neither of them will in our lifetime, which is just as well.

  • Thomas

    While he won’t go in as Yankee, if he makes it at all, dare I say Kevin Brown.

    211-144 with a 3.28 ERA, a 127 ERA+, and a 1.222 WHIP.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      He was quite a good pitcher.

    • Accent Shallow

      While he may be worthy of induction, zero chance do the writers vote him in. Legendary jerk, linked with steroids? I bet he falls off the first ballot.

      Personally, I think he’s up there with Schilling and Mussina in terms of career value, but. . . no way does he go in.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        He was a great pitcher, sure, but was he a big game pitcher like Jack Morris? I don’t think so.

        Sincerely,
        Jon Heyman

        • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

          Mike Francessa was arguing how he was about at Andy Pettite’s level in the regular season, but he was “such a great postseason pitcher. He had some tremendous games. Andy’s not up there with him in the postseason. Don’t look at wins, look at ERA.”

          Andy Pettite, regular season ERA (just for a reference point): 3.91

          Jack Morris, egular season ERA: 3.90

          Andy Pettite, postseason ERA: 3.90

          Jack Morris, postseason ERA: 3.80

          Oh yeah, based on that tremendoud disparity in statistics, clearly Morris is far supoerior in the postseason. There you go, Morris is a HOF’er.

          [Farts]

          • JAG

            I love how Francessa throws out the most meaningless statistic (wins)… and then points to another relatively meaningless one in ERA. So close, and yet so far.

            -JM

  • Matty Ice

    Randy Johnson??

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Not wearing a Yankee cap.

      (Although that does raise a good question: Seattle or Arizona? I say Arizona. That 6 year span from 1999-2004 trumps his stint in Seattle, even though it’s longer. Plus, he picked up two more years in Arizona after his stint here.

      When I close my eyes and think of Randy Johnson, though, I picture him as a Mariner.

      Tough call.

      • Accent Shallow

        Riffing: has any team been burned more by hoping their deadline deal pulls a Holliday (i.e. resigns in free agency) than Houston? They got incredible half-seasons and post-seasons from Johnson (’98) and Beltran (’04), only to see both leave for greener pastures, leaving them without comparable options.

        Ouch.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

          You know what I’d do if I was the City of Houston?

          I’d move out of Texas. Texas sucks.

      • Frigidevil

        He may have been better in Seattle, but he’s going in a d-back. Numbers speak volumes, but people remember the hardware. 1 cy young and a no-hitter vs. 4 straight cy youngs, a perfect game, and a ring to go with his world series co-mvp award.

  • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

    G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB

    Player X
    21 Seasons
    G-2627
    AB-9927
    R-1373
    H-2774
    2B-503
    HR-438
    RBI-1591
    BB-589
    SO-1509
    BA-.279
    OBP-.323
    SLG-.482
    OPS-.806
    OPS+119
    TB-4787

    Player Y
    12 Seasons
    G-1539
    AB-5853
    R-974
    H-1726
    2B-389
    HR-381
    RBI-1239
    BB-683
    SO-961
    BA-.295
    OBP-.369
    SLG-.564
    OPS-.933
    OPS+ 143

    TB-3300

    Name both, then take a wild guess which one’s a HOFer, and which one can’t get any support?

    • JGS

      X is Dawson

      Y–Albert Belle?

      • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

        Bingo. I made it too easy. Belle complied 75-90% of Dawson’s career numbers in 12 seasons to Dawson’s 21 seasons, or just below 1/2 the length in career. He actually walked more often (683/589) than Dawson did, though Dawson had 9 more years of career to work with.

        • Tom Zig

          People won’t vote for Belle because he was just wasn’t a very chipper person. I don’t think that should be a qualification, but hey whatevs.

          • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

            Right. And if you’re looking at the right numbers, the rate stats as opposed to the aggregate stats, then even a BBWAA voter can figure it out.

            • Tom Zig

              You’re asking for too much.

        • vin

          Fairly or not:

          Belle loses points with the voters for having a relatively short career… only 9 full seasons. It’s hard to get elected to the Hall if you retire at 33 (unless if you were Koufax great).

          He also will get hurt because he didn’t contribute much in the field.

          Although Dawson’s rate stats aren’t particularly inspiring, I can’t necessarily hate a vote for him. There is something to be said for being really good for 13 seasons.

          It’s kind of ironic, actually:

          Belle’s career was cut short because of his hip problems. Dawson’s overall effectiveness was impacted because of his knee problems (from playing on the turf in Montreal).

          The difference is Dawson was able to grind out 9 more years after his peak, Belle just retired.

          • JGS

            the strike also robbed him of his most eye-poppingly good years

            in 1994-5, he was .334/.417/.700/1.117 with 86 home runs, 227 RBIs, 131 BB, 151 K in just 106 games in 1994 and 143 (in which he hit 50 of those home runs) in 1995

          • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

            You can swing a bat on bad knees. Matsui and Giambi have done it for years, and I could name a bunch of catchers who had knee troubles as they aged yet kept playing.

            You can’t generate any power if you have a bad hip. That’s where most of it comes from.

            • vin

              I’m not blaming him for retiring.

              Just noting that his degenerative hip ended his career, while Dawson’s turf-induced knee problems allowed him to keep playing (but presumably at a somewhat impaired level).

              Dawson had better bad luck than Belle.

  • Tom Zig

    A-Rod should, though we never know how the voters will go on that one.

    A-rod’s contract is up after the 2017 season. So his earliest year of eligibility for the Hall of Fame is…2023?

    By then I wonder if most people will have forgotten his steroids incidents. I probably will have forgotten about it. (Not like the steroids thing matters to me anyway)

    • Zack

      Forgotten? No. Realize tons of guys were on it and by the time mutliple guys in the HOF who used it? Yes

  • Steve H

    Can someone explain to me how Albert Belle finished (teh) 8th in the MVP voting in 1998? I understand the voters wouldn’t have noticed him leading the league in OPS and OPS+, but he also bashed a voter friendly 49 HR’s and 152 RBI, while also leading the league in total bases. Now I’m not saying he had to finish 1st, but 8th, really? Go look at what a ridiculously monster season that was, I don’t care if his team went 10-152, he should have finished much, much higher. Dude was a beast.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      The White Sox were 80-82. Therefore, Belle was not valuable.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Matt’s right. Furthermore, the logic process that Matt speaks of is sound.

        Sincerely,
        Idiots

    • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

      It’s a fucking popularity contest. He was an asshole, so they looked for any excuse to vote for someone else.

      • Steve H

        I don’t even think they look for an excuse, they’d probably admit they didn’t vote for him because he was a dick.

      • Accent Shallow

        Yup. That’s why Mo Vaughn has an MVP in a year Belle should have.

      • Steve H

        Oh, and horrible decisions like that make it worse when Heyman (and others) quote peoples times in the MVP/CY voting to justify their HOF votes, which is also a joke. It’s just perpetuating mistakes of past writers. Ridiculous.

    • vin

      Yeah, when you can get 200 hits from the best power hitter in the league, then that’s a good thing.

      Fact is, voters loved Juan Gonzalez back then. He helped lead his pitching-starved teams to the playoffs (where they were easily disposed of by the Yankees).

  • vin

    Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will be on the ballot together in 2013. That should be interesting.

    I’m guessing McGwire’s return to the Cards actually helps them get into the HOF on the first ballot. IMO, the best thing for a PED user to do is disappear for a little while, let the dust settle, then come back and be somewhat open about your transgressions. I think McGwire will need to address the issue, and the public perception will be improved.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      If neither of them gets in on the first time, I’ll never visit the HOF again.

      • Tom Zig

        I don’t think they will. Partly because the steroid allegations came towards the end of their careers or after their careers. Steroids or not, those two were great ball players and deserve to be in the hall of fame.

        • Tom Zig

          But then again that’s 3 years from now, hopefully we can get some new voters out there.

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          Yep.

          Semi-Related Tweet from K-Law: # I’m dying to see which ornithophile-BBWAA member withholds his vote from Randy Johnson on the 2015 ballot. 4:07 PM Jan 5th from web

          • Tom Zig

            He won’t be unanimous because he shoved a camera man once.

            • JGS

              he won’t be unanimous because the same morons will be submitting blank ballots again

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                Maybe Obama really should put some Death Panels into #HCR. The elderly wing of the BBWAA could use some thinning out.

                /SocialDarwinism’d

              • JAG

                I really think that, if you’re given the honor of voting for the Hall of Fame, you should not be allowed to submit a blank ballot unless you can make a case that NONE of the eligible players are Hall-worthy. Just submitting a blank ballot to be a jerk should cost you your voting rights. But that’s me. It’s not going to happen.

                -JM

          • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

            Yeah, I thought the exact same thing this morning, as I’m sure a lot of other people did. Unit’s 1st ballot should be Seaver-like, where you track down the few oddballs who didn’t vote for him and try to rescind their BBWAA membership.

      • DCBX

        I just want to see Barry try to keep a straight face when he sees The Asterisk Ball in person. He’s not known for being a laid back guy.

    • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

      If McGwire admits to using PEDs as a batting coach, it will be the first time he’s ever done so in public. I’m not holding my breath.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

        Why should he admit anything? He never tested positive, was never named in the Mitchell Report, and andro wasn’t banned in baseball until three years after he retired.

        Maybe, just maybe, he’s actually innocent.

        • Steve H

          If he is innocent, then he should just “talk about the past.”

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

            Maybe there’s nothing to talk about.

            • Steve H

              Reporter: Mark, did you do steroids?

              Mark: No. Now that I have talked about the past, no more questions.

              Simple.

              • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

                Reporter: Mark, did you do steroids?

                Mark: Hey, look at the dead bird! (points up)

                Reporter: Jose Canseco claims he injected you in the ass with steroids. Is he lying?

                Mark: Well, not exactly. He did inject me in the ass, but I was young and sort of sexually confused at the time . . .

                Reporter: Are you claiming Canseco is Gay?

                Mark: Hey, look at the dead bird! (points up)

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                  Reporter: Mark, did you do steroids?

                  Mark: Innocent until proven guilty, muthaf#$%&a!!! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

        • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

          ummmm . . . . care to make a friendly wager on that one, kemo sabe?

        • Zack

          Exactly. That’s like taking some pill from GNC now, then in 2 years they ban it and you’re labeled a cheater.

          He is in St. Louis, not exactly reporters like NYC

      • vin

        I don’t see how he can NOT admit to something. If he doesn’t admit anything than he will be a major distraction to a team that doesn’t usually have distractions (LaRussa’s DUI aside).

        But then again, I’m still not sure if David Ortiz admitted to anything and he’s still “lovable”… that just got conveniently swept under the rug.

    • Januz

      If you look at McGwire’s vote total this year (23.7% or 121 votes), which is without change from before, that is not good for him. I don’t think he will make it, and I think that Palmeiro
      will not either. I could actually see a scenario where Clemens and Bonds have to wait as long as Blyleven, until A-Rod retires, to see if any steroid users are ever elected.

  • Pingback: hotstove.com / archive » Latest Hot Stove Notes: Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Red Sox, Orioles, Brewers, more

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

    Bernie Williams? He last played a game in 2006, so his time will come soon enough. But will he get the vote? Certainly not on the first few ballots, and even after that it will take a Jim Rice effort to get him in.

    Way ahead of you, buddy. Way ahead of you.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      Fear Williams, baby.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Feared.

        Don’t leave off the -ed. Changes everything.

    • Januz

      Bernie is not a Hall Of Famer, he was an above average player. Very comperable to Paul O’Neill (My all-time favorite player BUT NOT a Hall of Famer). When I think of Hall of Famer outfielders I think of Ichirio, Griffey, Manny and Bonds (Guys I DON”T like in the least, but were that good).

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Bernie Williams, career OPS+ (from CF): 125
        Paul O’Neill, career OPS+ (from RF): 120
        Jim Rice, career OPS+ (from LF and DH): 128

        I agree that Bernie shouldn’t be in the Hall. But, if you give me a ballot and tell me to order them, it’s:

        1.) None of the above
        (gap)
        2.) Bernie
        (gap)
        3.) Rice
        (larger gap)
        4. O’Neill

  • Bryan

    hopefully the big stein is the next to go in

    • DCBX

      +28

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

    If either Clemens or Mussina do get in (and they should), they should go in as a Red Sock and an Oriole.

    Not that I didn’t like them as Yankees (I did), but that’s the primary teams they should be associated with for historical posterity.

    • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

      I’m with you on Clemens, he’ll always be a Red Sox to me. I could go either way On Moose.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        On Moose:

        In BAL: 10 seasons, 2009.2 IP, 147-81 (.645), 129 ERA+
        In NYY: 8 seasons, 1553.0 IP, 123-72 (.631), 114 ERA+

        It’s much closer than Clemens, sure, but he should be an Oriole.

        • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

          Yeah, I guess you’re right on Moose. You’re voting him in for his HOF seasons and he had most of his best years with the O’s. It’s length and quality for the O’s, the Yanks it’s more about winning and postseasons, but that’s team stuff and its an individual award.

  • Crazy Eyes Killa

    I don’t expect Mo to retire for atleast another 10 seasons, is that unreasonable or something? Isn’t he in his prime?

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Fun Fact of the night: Mariano Rivera is currently 40 years old. He’s been in his prime for the past 50 years.

  • vin

    Andrew Dawson is kind of in that Brooks Robinson/Gary Carter level of the HOF.

    Compared to Brooks:

    Nearly identical OBP, but Andre had much more power. Both played a very long time.

    Brooks gets credit for having a great glove, and performing well in the playoffs… voters eat that sort of thing up.

    Both were remembered as being better than they really were, though.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Andrew Dawson is kind of in that Brooks Robinson/Gary Carter level of the HOF.

      I personally think Andrew Dawson is more on the Brook Robinson or Garys Carter level of the HOF.

      • vin

        Damn, I keep accidentally typing “Andrew Dawson” this evening. That’s like the 3rd or 4th time.

        Screw him, he shouldn’t be in the HOF anyway.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      To be fair, Robinson isn’t in ’cause of his bat.

  • vin

    Of course I know its “Andruw Dawson.”

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

    I find it curious that many of the same voters who will vote for Morris but not Blyleven (citing “dominance” over “longevity and stat compiling”) will also vote for Jim Rice and Andre Dawson but not Albert Belle.

    Albert Belle PWNED baseball. You think Jim Rice was feared? Albert Belle was f$#%&ing terrifying.

    • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

      If voters want to say he didn’t do it long enough, I’ll buy it. But you can’t turn around and vote for Dawson, who did it longer but far less effectively.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Exactly.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Fun Fact of the Night, #2: You know how the Morris backers like to cite the fact that “Morris won more games in the 1980s than anyone else”? Well, guess who lead the MLB in RBI’s and XBH in the 1990s? That’s right, you guessed it.

      Oh, and Belle lead the majors in those categories despite playing in only NINE games in 1990.

  • dygg

    Sorry to get off the HoF topic, but does anyone know if there have been any updates regarding free agent Kevin Towers?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Nothing.

  • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

    You know who got snubbed by the BBWAA once again? Not Blyleven, not Alomar, not even Albert Belle.

    http://www.baseball-reference......sn01.shtml

    Snuffy Stirnweiss.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      David Cone approves this message.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Stuffy went to Fordham Prep. Thus, Michael Kay also approves this message.

        • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

          Snuffy, not Stuffy. He wasn’t an aristocrat.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

            Whoops, my bad.

            Sincerely,
            Andrew Dawson

  • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

    http://espn.go.com/blog/SweetS.....we-thought

    Good piece by Neyer on the Dawson fiasco.

    .323 OBP. 20 points lower than Lou Brock, who used to be at the bottom.

    • http://www.teamnerdrage.com dr mrs the yankee

      Lou Brock will be 3rd worst after Ivan Rodriguez is elected, he’s moving on up.

  • http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/091102/GAL-09Nov02-2999/media/PHO-09Nov02-185373.jpg Drew

    Anyone ever take the Port Imperial ferry over to Midtown? I have an interview tomorrow near 7th and 53rd and was wondering how much time I should give myself.

    • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

      No idea, but dress warm.

    • pat

      Nice, I have an interview tomorrow as well. Broadway and 52nd.

  • Yankeefan91 Arod Fan

    Seriously what the hell are the cardinals doing paying Holliday all that money until 2029.

  • Beechtop

    Mo gets in automatically and will be the next one.

    Among his off the chart credentials are his postseason scoreless inning record of 34 1/3. He has pitched 133.1 postseason innings yielding only 13 runs, 11 earned, for a 0.74 ERA. Unbelievable.

    BUT: Does anyone know, or know how to learn, how many of his 133 postseason innings were scoreless overall, consecutive or not?

    Even more, does any starter in history have more scoreless postseason innings than Mo’s?

    Or does Mo hold the AGGREGATE scoreless innings record as well?

    My guess is that he’s probably not even close to the leading starter’s postseason scoreless innings total.

    A little help?

  • Fred

    duh! it will be Tim Raines

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      Haha, good call.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Expos cap, no?

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          Oh clearly, I’m just sayin.

  • http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/ Nostra-Artist

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....Yankees%29

    Clemens’ mistress to air the dirty laundry manana.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      Those pictures look like something out of A.I..

  • Teix is the Man

    Courtesy of FoxSports.com

    “Red Sox moving phenom CF to left”

    I know this is old news, but I laughed at the context of the headline.

    • http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090810&content_id=6355462&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy JobaWockeeZ

      It should be more like “Red Sox Make Good Move Moving Horrible CF Defender to Left”

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      “Red Sox moving phenom CF to left”

      I can only assume this is referring to Casey Kelly.

      Converting him to an LHP is risky, but if any prospect can handle it with aplomb, it’s Kelly. I expect that now that he’s a lefty, he’ll shoot right past Steven Strasburg to #1 overall on the prospect lists.

      • http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090810&content_id=6355462&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy JobaWockeeZ

        I can only assume this is referring to Casey Kelly.

        Converting him to an LHP is risky, but if any prospect can handle it with aplomb, it’s Kelly.

        So now he’s Pat Venditte AND a powerful switch hitter? Best prospect of all time!
        <b? I expect that now that he’s a lefty, he’ll shoot right past Steven Strasburg to #1 overall on the prospect lists.

        Please, Kelly when he was a shortstop was already a better prospect than Strasburg.

        • SheldonCooperPHD

          The padres would need to build a package around AGon just to have a shot at Casey MVP Kelly.

  • Matty Ice

    I can’t wait to hear why some voters leave Mo off the ballot. Because if all they can come with is “so no one goes in unanimously” then I’ll be royally pissed.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      He’s just a reliever. That’s one excuse.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        Exactly. People are just morons sometimes.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

          My ears are burning…

          Sincerely,
          Jon Heyman

      • Tom Zig

        Are there any kickers or punters in the NFL Hall of fame?

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

          Just one.

          There should be more, though.

          I agree, closers are wicked overrated. Doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be Hall of Famers. Mariano deserves to go in.

    • http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

      The Ricky Henderson “I had a senior moment and just forgot” excuse.

  • Zack

    http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/0.....rent-ones/

    “7s (Dominant Player/No. 2 Starter)”
    “OF: Ryan Braun, Matt Holliday, Curtis Granderson, Torii Hunter, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jayson Werth, Carl Crawford, Justin Upton”

    What name in there is not like the others?

    • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)
    • Tom Zig

      Ellsbury is a dominant base stealer but I don’t know if he is a dominant player

      • Chris

        Well, I know that he’s not a dominant player.

        When your WAR is less than Gardner’s, there’s no way you can be considered dominant.

    • A.D.

      Yikes, then you look down at the next grouping and there’s many players that you would take now and in the future of the Ellsbury

      Sizemore
      Markakis
      Jones
      Either
      Choo
      Pence
      Keubel
      McCutchan

      I would all take in a heartbeat over Ellsbury for now & next 10 years.

  • http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec 105

    From mlbtraderumors.com
    “As part of his new seven year, $120MM contract, Matt Holliday will be collecting paychecks from the Cardinals through 2029 according to the AP (via SI.com). As you know, the contract calls for a $17MM annual salary through 2016 with an option for 2017, however $2MM is deferred without interest each season. Depending on whether or not the option is picked up/vests, Holliday will be paid either $1.4MM or $1.6MM on July 15th every year from 2020 to 2029.’

    Does that money go on their team payroll?

    • A.D.

      Not sure that would count against MLB payroll/luxury tax purposes since they use AAV which is a 7 year 17 per contract (even if they had front or backloaded over the 7 years).

      Can’t believe that the option is based on top 10 of 2016 MVP voting, especially given what happened to the Braves and Vazquez this year.

    • Ed

      For luxury tax issues, he is considered to be earning $17m/year for the next 7 years.

      For union purposes, they will adjust the payments for inflation and create a “present day” value, which they use in their calculations for things like average salaries.

      If the Cardinals management is talking about a payroll budget with the press, they’re probably counting it as $15m but want whoever they’re negotiating with at the time to think of it as $17m.

  • Bob Stone

    Who will hit more home runs in 2010 – Carlos Pena or ARod? Should I take this as a friendly bet with my sister who loves the Rays?

    • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

      Yes.

      And bet high.

      • Bob Stone

        Over the last three years ARod has hit two more than Pena. It’s close based the numbers.

        • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

          A-Rod will be epic next year.

          • Bob Stone

            I hope so and took the bet.

            • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

              Good man.

              Night all. I’m tired.

              • Bob Stone

                Good night.

  • JFH

    Bernie won’t be on the ballot in 2012, b/c the Yankees, in an effort to save some money, will bring Bernie back this year to play left field.

  • EB

    Chone projections for 2010 now up on fangraphs.

    http://tinyurl.com/ya9ypwc

    Of interest to me: Melky’s WoBA projected at .358, Curtis at .359

    Also Shelley Duncan at .356, higher than Jorge at .353 and Damon at .352

    • Bo

      To be fair Duncan is in 10 at bats. Others in 600.

  • Pingback: 2010 Hall of Fame Voting « Zell's Pinstripe Blog