Almost trading Bernie Williams again and again
By
AP Photo/Kathy Willens
Bernie Williams hasn’t played in a regular season game for the Yankees since Oct. 1, 2006. He went 1 for 1 as a pinch hitter in Game 162, and then played in just one game during the ALDS. He knew he was nearing the end of his career, but he couldn’t convince the Yanks to give him a guaranteed deal. The team offered to invite him to Spring Training, and Bernie went home to nurse his wounded pride instead.
Now, three full seasons removed from his last game as a Major Leaguer, Bernie still feels the itch, and when he showed up at George M. Steinbrenner Field yesterday, he spoke with reporters about coming to grips with his forced retirement. “Someone said it takes a player three to five years to get used to not playing,” Williams said. “I’m in my fourth year now, so I’m right between there. I miss it, but I like what I’m doing.”
Bernie is 41, but he still thinks about coming back. “I think mentally I try not to really think about that too much,” he said. “I go through periods of time within the past couple of years in which I go back and forth, and this doesn’t help, being here and saying hi to the guys. It obviously brings a lot of the old feelings back, but I know that I’m doing something worthwhile in another field. Any way that I look at it, I can’t lose. If I come back, that would be great. But if I don’t, it’s just a great opportunity to do something different and try to excel at it.”
As much as he may want to rejoin the Majors, Bernie’s time has passed. I hated seeing Bernie go fading away as he did, and it still pains me to hear my one-time favorite talk about wanting to come back. He tried that during the WBC in 2009 and ended up with a quad injury. It was an ignoble end, to say the least.
But what’s done is done. Instead of dwelling on Bernie’s tortured present, let’s look at his distant past. As a top Yankee prospect in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Bernie was subject of more trade rumors than we could count. Scouts knew he would be good, but they couldn’t foresee his peak from 1997-2001 when he hit .325/.411/.548 and led the Yanks to four World Series berths. And so into the Wayback Machine we go.
Would you, in 1989, have traded Bernie Williams for Jeff Blauser? That’s what the Braves wanted to do. Blauser, then a highly-coveted 22-year-old, had just made his Major League debut and would go on to put up serviceable career numbers. He hit .262/.354/.406 and twice made the All-Star team. A deal was nearly in place that may or may not have involved Bernie.
Here’s a more intriguing rumor: What about Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla for Bernie Williams, Kevin Maas, Roberto Kelly Jesse Barfield and a pitcher? It’s a bit tougher to say “no” to Bonds. The Yanks maybe could have landed Bonds and Bonilla in a deal with Gerald Williams instead of Bernie. A Bonds/Bernie outfield would have been a sight to see in the late 1990s.
Perhaps something a little more recent would give us a taste of life almost without Bernie. The Yanks and Bernie nearly split up in 1998 when the team moved on Albert Belle after Bernie’s contract demands grew too rich for their tastes, but that almost-divorce, rescued on Thanksgiving Eve, had its origins in the 1997 off-season. With Bernie nearing free agency and the Yanks not in love with their enigmatic almost-superstar, the team looked to trade him that winter and nearly did so to the Tigers. The deal would have sent Roberto Duran and Mike Drumright, Detroit’s number one pick in 1995, to the Bronx for Bernie.
Why the deal was scuttled remains a mystery. Murray Chass speculated that (1) George quashed a deal then-GM Bob Watson negotiated on his own; (2) other baseball advisers didn’t feel the Yanks were getting enough back from the Tigers; or (3) it was a negotiating ploy to get Bernie to lower his demands on the Yankees. No matter the reason, it would have been a disastrous trade for the Yanks. Drumright never reached the majors and today works in construction in Wichita, Kansas.
So Bernie remained that ever-elusive Yankee for Life®. He’s trying to give up the sport, but it just keeps sucking him in. Even if his words make me wince today, I, for one, am quite relieved the Yanks never traded him as they often considered doing.
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(sh$#%s pants at idea of angering Bernie by trading him)
Teh fear!!11!!1
There’s a legitimate chance of Bernie stabbing the f#$% out of Ben for writing this article. I fear for Ben’s safety now.
Ben, you should find a safe house or stay with a relative or something. Lay low for a while, because you’re probably wanted by Bernie to be murdered.
I just hope he has a panic room. But of course Bernie would smell the fear and bust down some walls until he found Ben curled up in a corner, shaking.
Darren Lewis was a George phone call away.
We can thank Stick for saving us there.
Bonds/Bernie/insert RF here?
That would have been great. True, no Paul O’Neill, but Bonds >>>>>>>>>>>>> O’Neill.
Bonds cheated, therefore O’Neill>>>>>>Bonds.
/Jake’d
Both are not getting into the Hall.
Opinion, or fact?
So everyone who isn’t a Hall of Famer were equal players?
Um, no. Bonds isn’t getting in because his career isn’t real. O’Neill isn’t getting in because he’s not a HOFer.
One, at least, has morals.
What part of “stop” don’t you understand? As I said over an hour ago, stop.
Bond was an awesome player. he took steroids, but that didn’t make hiim go from above average to legendary. Look at Arod’s texas years on steroids. They aren’t that much better than his other years. I fully beleive bonds would have been in the late 600′s to early 700′s on homers w/o steroids. It was a long time ago, and we can’t judge him by it. Should Gherig and Ruth not count since there were no blacks in the league at the time? No. Arod took steroids for 3 years, is he not a HOF’er. The steroid era will only be over when people like you stop throwing it into everyone’s face.
Ergo: Ruth = Rice
Opinion. Bonds will get in at some point.
O’Neill for an infant IPK and toddler Melky.
Well played.
Barry’s last three years in Pittsburgh:
.301-.424-.566, averaged 31 HR and 45 SB per. 225-327 K/BB.
He was a lefty Albert Pujols that stole bases.
And provided that at a more valuable position than 1B.
That line is why Bonds would have been a Hall of Famer even without his enhanced home run seasons.
Fun Fact: In Barry Bonds’s 22 year ML career from 1986-2007 he had only five seasons where his OBP was lower than .400.
Four of those five seasons were in the 1980s, the first four years of his career.
How do any of us know when he started taking steroids?
Maybe he started taking a certain kind of steroid in 1993,
but maybe he was on something else in 89?
You’re right. He may have been on steroids. So may have Bernie, O’neill, Tino, and any other yankee.
My only point is that once it’s confirmed, you don’t get a second chance to tell the truth.
See Big Mac.
You lie once. No HOF. Thank GOD for the voters.
There is no God. Opinion, or fact?
Why not stick to the topic?
That is the literally the first good point you’ve made in any of your comments at RAB.
You are awful. (That, on the other hand, was the latest in a long line of good points made by me at RAB.)
I’m calling for a total commenting black-out on Jake. I pledge to do my part and never again respond to one of his comments, and I hope you’ll all do the same. I’m convinced this is either Bo or just some other person who is either (a) insane and/or (b) trying to hijack and ruin the conversations here, and I say we just act like he’s not here.
I’m fine with this, but why not do the same to Bo? Everyone always responds to his shit, which results in more hijacked/ruined threads than anything else.
Ignore the trolls. It’s the most basic rule of Internetting.
(That, on the other hand, was the latest in a long line of good points made by me at RAB.)
I enjoyed that.
And I agree on the black-out, I will do my part.
In my opinion Bo isn’t quite as bad as this guy, but I’m fine with that suggestion.
I emailed Mike about this, but this is a situation in which a nice, selective application of the banhammer would do a whole lotta good.
That’s up to the RABbis and I understand their hesitance to ban commenters who don’t openly break or flout the rules. I say we just do our part by completely ignoring this guy (and others like him).
Commence: RAB Operation Shutdown.
Derek Bell reference. Love it.
Commence: RAB Operation Shutdown.
I’m in.
Sincerely,
Derek Bell
I’m in.
I am going to disagree with that statement for 2 reasons (1 stupid and 1 better).
1. He may have been on steroids at that point and we just don’t know it (not that I really give a shit, just because you took steroids doesn’t mean you should be in the HOF).
2. Bonds numbers from 1986-92 (Pit years) .275/.380/.503 averaging 25 HR and 79 RBIs with an OPS+ 147
Similar players from similar years over there first 7 seasons
Player A .299/.373/.499 22HR 89RBIs OPS+ 145 (played 1B)
Player B .260/.358/.520 31HR 89RBIs OPS+ 146 (played RF)
Player C 119-46 2.82ERA averaged 218IP ERA+ 125 WHIP 1.136 8.2K/9 3.10K/BB
Now Bonds was better than players A, B, and C, but not by much of a margin. However, Will Clark, Darryl Strawberry, and Dwight Gooden will never sniff the HOF.
What I am saying is during his Pittsburgh years Bonds was spectacular. However, if you throw out his entire career after that point, he isn’t much better than Clark, Strawberry, and Gooden and that is not good enough for the HOF. You can assume Bonds would have continued his dominance, but you would have to assume that Clark, Strawberry, and Gooden would have continued theirs as well, which obviously didn’t happen.
PS With his career over I am 100% behind Bonds going to the HOF.
Or, Barry’s last three years in Pittsburgh:
176, 160, 205 in wRC+
He was also hated by all of his teammates.
Not disliked, but hated.
Ty Cobb stabbed a guy.
So was Reggie Jackson.
Right guys. Barry Bonds would have made a great Yankee. Terrific idea. Well done.
Who needs Paul O’Neill?
What did he ever do?
…Paul, is that you?
Caused the deaths of many water coolers.
Was white.
got really angry over a bunch of called strike threes
Bonds would have been a great Yankee because he was a great player. Simple as that.
Was Gary Sheffield a “great Yankee”
Chemistry plays a part in winning, too.
This conversation is really getting tiring. I’d ask you all to just let it drop or else I’m going to close comments here for a bit.
I’m gonna break the pledge for just one final comment. ARE YOU TELLING ME YOU THINK PAUL O’NEIL WAS MORE VALUABLE TO THE YANKEES THEN BARRY BONDS WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE HAD BEEN A YANKEES. Wow, that took stupidity to a whole new level. I suppose Alex Rodriguez is less valuable than Posada right? Because Arod was a cheater and was disliked, and Posada is a true yakee?
You are not entirely correct about Reggie. Among his A’s teammates that he came up with he is still part of a band of brothers; among his Yank teammates I would agree he was (and still is) mostly hated (and vice versa) but he picked the right Yankee guys to love him; the Steinbrenner family.
I was referring to his Yankees teammates.
I bet you could take a look at every Hall of Famer and find at least one teammate who hated them. Think the Giants players really hated Bonds when he carried them to the World Series?
FUN FACT: Hall-of-Fame pitcher William “Candy” Cummings (October 18, 1848 – May 16, 1924) was so named because he liked to steal chocolate bars from orphans. It is also said that he first invented the curveball in order to hit a group of nuns he noticed sitting in the front row.
[Editor's Note: This "fun fact" is almost certainly entirely false.]
What about Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla for Bernie Williams, Kevin Maas, Roberto Kelly Jesse Barfield and a pitcher?
Yes please.
The Yanks maybe could have landed Bonds and Bonilla in a deal with Gerald Williams instead of Bernie.
Hmmmm, that’s tougher. Trading away Feared Williams is one thing… the Iceman is a whole different story. I’ll have to think about that for a while.
(Yes, I’m joking. Please don’t freak the hell out.)
I always thought Williams and Williams would replace the M&M boys in Yankee lore, but Bernie just couldn’t hold up his end of the bargain.
(I may or may not be joking, feel free to freak the hell out.)
Bonilla played in NY. How did that go?
Ehhh, I think it’s more the Bonds part that is exciting. Any time you can get one of the best 5 players of all time, it’s a good thing for your team.
Steve, your logic is undeniable.
Pretty much.
Would I put up with the mediocrity of Bobby Bonilla’s career in order to have the awesomeness of Barry Bonds’s career?
Hells to the yes.
what is this i dont even
And Bonilla in NY put up a 127 OPS+. Not too shabby.
How old are you? Did you ever see Bonilla play in NY?
I’m 7.
I don’t need to see anything, I can see his stats. He was a productive offensive player during his time in NY. In fact, his productiong offensively is every similar to Paul O’Neill’s with the Yankees.
Steve H, you may never have been more wrong in your life.
Bonilla was one of the worst signings the Mets ever made. He was one of the worst signings of baseball team at the time.
The guy was a DH playing in the National League.
He was worse than Damon in the outfield.
And that was in his prime.
But keep talking stat guy.
Was Vince Coleman great, too?
Bobby Bonilla, NYM: .270/.356/.495 (127+)
Paul O’Neill, NYY: .303/.377/.492 (125+)
Your mind: BLOWN.
That’s great.
Compare Bobby Bonilla to Paul O’Neill.
BUT, I’m the crazy one. LOL.
I love Paul O’Neill. He was a great player and is one of my favorite Yankees ever.
Having said that, Paulie is one of the most overrated players in recent memory.
Um, Overrated?
Try Bobby Bonilla.
Let me settle this debate once and for all, for O’Neill was my favorite player and I owned a Bonilla glove.
Paulie-emotional leader, hero to white people in NY, came up big in a few situations so now he is second only to Mo.
Bonilla-DIDNT LIVE UP TO HIS PIRATE GREATNESS IN NY SO HE IS A FAILURE!!!
…but they probably have the same career if either were on an average team.
You can say this about Bonilla in right field:
He gave you a thrill.
You’re starting to sound like Bo.
“You’re
starting to sound likeBo.”(fixed)
No, I’m not.
I concur, Jake is clearly not Bo.
Jake knows how to use apostrophes correctly.
There, I said something nice about Jake.
Mr. Mondesi:
I actually just laughed so loudly at that that my roommate woke up.
Maybe George couldn’t stand the thought of Frank Costanza yelling in his ear. “HOW COULD YOU TRADE BERNIE WILLIAMS????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember the near Belle for Bernie swap, boy would have that ended poorly.
Imagine teh fear!!11!!! when discussing those two. They are absoutely two of the most feared players of all time.
Yikes! NY media would have eaten Belle up. He would have been taking swings at half the reporters in the clubhouse after a bad game.
He would have been taking swings at half the reporters in the clubhouse after a bad game.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
love how both of you said this at same time.
awww thats so cute lol ha ha
Well yeah, for 2 years before he was forced out of the game from a degenerative hip, but didn’t retire.
Chances the Yankees retire Bernie’s number or honor him in any way outside of old timer’s day, i.e., “Bernie Williams Day”, in the next five years?
Hmmm, good question.
I’ll say… 30% chance he gets his number retired. It should be higher than that, IMHO, but Bernie won’t get into the Hall, and that will work against him.
There will also fans who will argue that he shouldn’t get his number retired if Paul O’Neill isn’t getting his number retired, despite the fact that Bernie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paulie, but that sentiment may work against him as well.
Bernie should go in Monument Park, though. He was that good.
but Bernie won’t get into the Hall
Not with that attitude he won’t.
Push the propoganda machine, he’ll get there.
They retired Mattingly’s.
They should retire Bernie’s.
While they’re at it, Paul O’Neill was a great Yankee.
They should show him some respect.
“They should show him some respect.”
What? No. They shouldn’t.
Actutally they already have. To the tune of $47 million.
Yes, exactly.
Since you guys love to read off stats, instead of
going by actually watching, here ya go. Deny this.
Mattingly – 2153 hits, 222 HR, 1099 RBI.
O’Neill – 2105 hits, 281 HR, 1269 RBI.
Not saying one is better than the other, but their stats are very close.
Go ahead, let’s see a really sarcastic senseless response.
these stats = not really the stats people like to use when comparing players
Nor did O’neill compile those as a Yankee. And since the discussion is about Paul O’Neill the Yankee, I’m not sure why his Reds numbers are relevant.
It’s like saying the Mets should retire Willie Mays’ number because he hit 660 HR’s.*
*(yes, it’s extreme, I know)
Home runs and RBI don’t apply?
bexarama, please teach me something.
I was always under the impression that Don Mattingly was well on his to Hall after incredible season from 84-89, but then after he hurt his back, he became JT Snow.
But, it seems that I’ve been wrong so many times here
HRs are cool, sure. Not the be-all-end-all, but cool. RBI are bullsh-t. They’re pretty much completely dependent on your team. You could have the same batting stats at exactly the same spot in the order and if you play for the Yankees, you’ll probably have a lot more RBI than if you play for the Royals.
Also, as Steve H. said, what do O’Neill’s numbers as a Red have anything to do with why we should retire his number as a Yankee?
And yeah, Mattingly got really unlucky hurting his back.
Also, since you seem to like HR and RBI so much, A-Rod generally has more HR and RBI every year than Jeter does. Heck, he had more HR and RBI from last year when he missed a good chunk of the season. Can that make A-Rod a “true Yankee” to you? Why do I think you’re gonna say no?
I’m sorry, bex, and I know plenty of sportswriters personally who don’t think it’s fair that a guy like Mattingly, who played it straight, are left out in the cold, because Mac and Co found a way to hit the ball farther.
How I know this to be true? Because when they had the chance to vote Mac in, they chose not to.
Maybe things will change over time. It’s possible that more of our favorite Yankees will turn out to have been cheaters, too.
Do you else had more home runs than Jeter? Nomar and Miggy. And, they were doing it at a time when number junkies thought Jeter was the 4th best SS in the game, and overrated.
Plus he is giving credit to O’Neill for his time spent with the Reds. His stats with just the Yankees fall well short of what Donnie put up over the course of his career.
I will say that O’Neill does outscore Donnie in TW+ (True Warrior Scale), so he’s got that going for him. I mean, Donnie was a disrespectful hippie with sideburns while O’Neill once went 2 for 3 with a carpenter nail embedded in his eye. The real outrageous part of the story is that he hammered the nail into his own eye because he heard that would make him a better player.
What a guy.
::golf clap::
You’re right. O’Neill’s time with the Reds isn’t on the table. That’s a HOF argument. Not a Yankee retired number argument.
My bad if I confused the two.
ok here:
you can support an argument with statistics but being a jerk doesnt win you any friends nor does it draw people to your side even when you’re right.
I’m the jerk. I’m not calling anyone here an “idiot”
(Even after reading Bobby Bonilla/ Paul O’Neill comparisons)
O’Neill was a very good player on a bunch of very good teams. Played above average baseball for nearly a decade in NY, but he’s not an all time great. He was a great player, a great contributor, but not everyone who contributes to a few championships should be retired.
They retired Mattingly’s number.
Was he so much better than Bernie and O’Neill?
Bernie, yes. O’Neill, YES.
For 5 years Mattingly was as good anyone.
But if 5 years is worthy of getting your number retired, O’Neill and Williams, even without slam dunk HOF careers, have a case.
Of course the dynasty true Yankees should all be retired. From Scotty Bro to David Cone let them ALL be retired for their trueish Yankeeness.
And while we’re at it let’s trade A-Rod and Cano for not being true Yankees.
I think they should just forget A-Rod played for the Yankees all together once his contract is up. We can forget about the multiple rings too.
Arod has mutltiple rings?
I’m assuming they will win at least one more in the remaining 8 years left on his deal.
I wish I could forget. He is a disgrace to the Yankees, and to the game.
I think I love you (but what am I so afraid of?).
What about Andy Pettitte?
That was painful.
Andy Pettitte is not a disgrace to anything. You take that back!
(I know what you’re doing here.)
Bex, sorry, but it’s not crazy to look at juicers differently.
If I hold it against Bonds and Mac, Arod and Pettitte are guilty, too.
Whether you love them or not, like them or not, their careers are not looked at the same anymore.
What would have happened if in 1990 Don Mattingly took steroids, went on a tear, and started hitting monster upper deck home runs routinely?
And then, years later, we discovered that he cheated? He wouldn’t be voted into the Hall.
Don Mattingly, sadly, wasn’t healthy enough to make the Hall, but at least all of his accomplishments came to him naturally, and he can be proud of that.
So can the fans.
And while we’re at it let’s trade A-Rod and Cano for not being true Yankees.
Also for a lack of whiteness. But that may go without saying.
bring race into it. Well done.
If Paul O’Neill’s number is retired due to fan vehemence, Bernie’s should be too. He was, after all, the better of the two outfielders and Gold Glove defense at a premium position for a number of years.
And played 822 more games with the Yankees.
Oh man, I would have loved to see Bonds play for the Yankees. But, gotta be happy with how the last 15 years have turned out if you’re a Yankees fan.
No way man. I’d trade 4 championships for amazing juiced up stats.
Why wouldn’t you?
I would too because those juiced up amazing stats Bonds would give would lead to more than 4 championships.
Your mind. Blown.
Really.
Bonds has how many rings?
How many teams has Bonds played on that were similar to that of the late 90′s Yankees teams?
Check out his post season numbers in Pittsburgh.
HE was the reason they lost.
Arodesque.
You’re an idiot. Go root for the Mets if A-Rod and Cano offend you so.
You’re starting to hurt my feelings.
Funny, you’ve hurt the feelings of logic and reason all thread long.
So you’re saying I’m not entitled to my opinion?
No, he is not. Noone has said that anywhere.
Nah, cause those 4 championships are already done and guaranteed. Bonds being on the Yankees would of been epic but we have no idea how it would turn out. Probably very similar results. Dude was amazing. Would of been fun to watch him everyday I would think. Greatness.
And your fans….they cried like babies as the GM tried to trade Bernie, again and again…. and again.
/Commodus’d
I laughed.
this thread: Jake’d
Though the ignoring thing isn’t a bad idea.
It really has to be done. At least alex gonzalez was fun.
I agree.
…after this thread.
You’re only making it worse by continuing to respond.
… but it’s so hard not to respond!!!! I read the posts and i need people to hold my fingers back from the keyboard while they scream “hold me back!” hold me back!!”
haha! This, pretty much.
But I stopped.
I think “Jake” is a pale attempt at creating another “Alex Gonzalez”. He will, of course, deny it in response to this post, but anyone who reads here regularly will know what kind of response they would receive if they posted similar comments.
The tip-off, at least for me, is comparing anyone to Mattingly. The Mattingly-Williams discussions went on for some time and would be known to anyone who reads RAB on a regular basis. To start comparing Mattingly to O’Neill given this past history says to me that this is someone who is either trying to be funny or simply wants to provoke a response.
It does remind me of one of TSJC’s biggest fans.
Hi, I’ve only been here for 4 months, so i got to ask, who’s alex gonzalez?
Ask Jose.
I find myself cringing a bit when Bernie still talks about coming back. I am all for players making their own decisions when it comes to retirement, and if Bernie wanted (or wants) to keep playing, I don’t think that it would sully his legacy as a Yankee if he played a few years in another org. I just find it a bit sad that Bernie couldn’t see that his skills had diminished to the point where he couldn’t be a contributor on the Yanks considering their roster construction and needs.
That being said, I am all for Bernie Williams Day and retiring the #51. While the team is reaching the saturation point on retired numbers, Bernie deserves the honor as being an excellent player and an icon (yes, I know this is an intangible) during the mini-dynasty years.
Plus, he plays some badass elevator music on the guitar.
FACT: Feared Williams regularly uses an axe. FACT.
True enough, but that axe is made out of silk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxk2F1u9v4U (safe)
Don’t forget about the legendary Bernie & Leyritz for Bonds trade that George Costanza conceived back in ’96. He also figured out a way to get Griffey as well (and not have to give up much), but he was presumed dead and lost out on being the assistant GM.