Rosenthal: Yanks in the lead for Haren
ByUpdate (8:51pm): Piliere hears that talks are “moving forward,” and the teams are discussing secondary pieces. Jesus Montero is not in the deal according to Piliere’s sources, but Joba Chamberlain might be.
7:31pm): Ed Price says that no deal is imminent, but Arizona is determined to trade Haren before his next start on Tuesday. Rosenthal’s updated story says Ivan Nova “fits the profile” of the kind of pitcher the D-Backs want, and Frankie Piliere confirms that he’d be a key piece in a trade. It’s also worth noting that Zach McAllister‘s father works in Arizona’s scouting department, for what it’s worth.
6:29pm: Via Ken Rosenthal, the Yankees have become the front-runners for Dan Haren, with the Diamondbacks informing other interested teams that they are in “advanced negotiations” with one club. Bob Klapisch says GM Brian Cashman is deciding whether or not to pull the trigger. There’s no word on the package that would be going back to Arizona, but Jayson Stark reported earlier today that the Yanks would only get serious about a deal if they could get him for prospects. Arizona is reportedly looking for pitching, pitching, and more pitching in return.
Ben explored the possibility of a Haren trade earlier this afternoon. Stay tuned, people. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
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my blind yankee prospect loving self really doesnt want to see montero go
Joba, McAllister and Noesi? Sounds good to me.
If that’s all it is, I’ll be ecstatic. Hate to see Joba go (dude’s gonna have a career, no matter what he looks like now), though.
Cashman apparently said he would only do this deal for prospects. Joba has lost his prospect status.
No Joba. You don’t sell low on Joba Chamberlain. Trust me, the Yankees would regret it. You throw a package at the Diamondbacks that resembles this:
Brackman, Nova, Noesi, Z-Mac and you see if they bite. Nothing on our ML roster unless it’s Curtis or Pena.
Do you think the Yankees see Joba as a starting pitcher?
I think the Yankee brain-trust is split on Joba Chamberlain, understandably. I just hope that some sound mines realize that Joba Chamberlain outpitched Hughes as a starter if you compare Joba last year and Hughes this year through similar innings. They just didn’t allow Joba to develop.
I think Joba Chamberlain is a starting pitcher. Kid started in college, started in the minors, and he dominated both.
Joba did not come close to outpitching Hughes in similar innings.
The biggest difference is the amount of innings they have thrown which is a major disparity.
Joba’s 2009 thru July 29th:
110.2 IP, 3.58 ERA, 1.40 WHIP, 54 R, 44 ER, 97 K, 50 BB, 105 H
That’s the point when Joba matched his previous professional innings high. After that things went downhill, whether it be from the workload or the attempts to limit his innings.
Hughes 2010:
106 IP, 3.99 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 48 R, 47 ER, 93 K, 32 BB, 99 H
Joba walked more guys. He also gave up less earned runs but more unearned runs. Overall, they’re pretty similar. Hughes comes across a little better because he started really strong and slowly got worse, whereas Joba was up and down the entire year before ending terribly.
You left out the amount of games started by the 2.
Hughes has started 17 games this year while Joba started 20 through July 29th.
So, in 3 more starts Joba only has 4.2 more innings.
That is a drastic difference and what really separates their numbers.
At least some of that is due the team keeping his innings in check, as Joba had a lower limit last year than Hughes does this year.
Joba also left a game in the first inning in May after a comebacker, so there’s that to add to the equation.
Why? They’re not going to make him a starter at this point…they won’t have a spot even without getting Haren. And he’s been very inconsistent, plus Mo will almost certainly get resigned, probably at least 2 years. Even if he pitches really well, the Yankees would lose a solid setup man, not an ace, or a dominant closer or anything.
Pitching, pitching, and more pitching?
Yankees Get: Dan Haren
D’ Backs Get: Nova, Noesi, Z-Mac, Ramiro Pena
Of course, Ian Kennedy is currently sporting a better ERA than Haren. I know ERA isn’t a great stat to compare pitchers, but I thought it was interesting to point out. I miss IPK
, but he needed to go.
Anyway, I would do this if we keep our catchers and just trade some pitchers. Heck I would even trade Brackman!
I can’t see Ramiro Pena being involved in any deal. All 30 MLB clubs have about 4 Ramiro Penas already.
If there’s no Montero, I approve.
Cashman said he would not trade Montero. He said Lee was a special situation. Then again, he also said “Bubba Crosby is our starting Center Fielder”
.
and the Yanks signing Teixeira is “fantasy land”
I’ve gotten pretty attached to Jesus with the Montero Watch. If they only want pitching, I can’t imagine Montero would be part of the package. Hopefully he isn’t. I really wouldn’t be surprised, frankly, if Joba was part of the package.
I do hope this doesn’t mean, as Ben noted, that we wouldn’t be able to sign Lee this off-season. Lee > Haren, IMO, though Haren is a very good pitcher. I just might be worried about his effectiveness in the AL East. But we do need pitching, so depending on the package, I’d approve of this deal.
Though note that I do not think we should trade Joba. I know it’s been painful to watch him, but he is fixable. He’s only 24, people. I think the Yanks handling of him was all wrong. They probably should have stuck him with one role instead of switching him back and forth.
But if Joba is just a reliever, his value ceiling is limited. I trade him for a great pither (under contract) in a second.
I to think Joba is fixable, just NOT by the yanks. I think they have jerked him around for so long he is screwed as a Yankee. He is diffently a change of scenere guy (sorry for the mispellng). If you can get Haren for him being the center piece then do it! As long as it does not affect our getting Lee in the offseason.
CC, Lee, Haren, Burnett, Hughes with Joba in the minors preparing to take over for Burnett when we inevitably ship him out of town for his ineffectiveness.
Joba can’t be in the minors unless he’s sent down before Aug 7 of this year
preparing to take over for Burnett when we inevitably ship him out of town for his ineffectiveness
Not happening. Who’s taking that contract?
I can’t see Montero included in a Haren deal. The Lee deal was supposed to be the exception according to Cashman. I’d say it’s most likely Joba.
Ha. As if I’ll believe this.
Watch as it will be revealed that Joba will have a paper cut on his left testicle and the D-Backs will back off.
Same season. Same story.
Man, now there is one place I wouldn’t want a paper cut . . .
Now the question is, how did the paper cut get there? And do I want to know?
is that his pitching testicle?
Is the main reason why people do not want Haren the fact that we may not have room for Lee? If we knew this was Pettitte’s last year and we had a spot for Lee next year, would people be on board with this?
It’s not the main reason, but it’s one of them. Haren is under control for a few more years at money that’s very reasonable for who he is. Lee would be making more money for a longer period of time.
And, every beat writer I’m aware of is convinced that Andy will be back next year if he’s healthy. And why not? Who can argue with making 10 million dollars a year while you still can.
I understand. I am trying to judge why people might not want Haren. If the main reason is the one I mentioned, then it seems silly to not get him. You can always make room.
People see a high ERA in the NL West and think it means he’ll be a disaster here. While Haren has given up way too many HRs (something possible attributed to the park he pitches in) his peripherals say he’s been a very good pitcher that’s suffered from some bad luck and a terrible bullpen.
He’s also had good years in the past, in the AL as well. Yeah, he was pitching in Oakland those years…but still.
Hypothetical:
If we did get Haren, and sign Lee in the off season and Petitte returns, could that leverage an arbitration offer to Javy? i.e. – ‘Javy we want you to come back as a long reliever, here’s lets go to arbitration’ – the purpose being to make him an offer he’d decline and get the draft picks.
Pretty sure they’ll offer Javy arbitration regardless of what happens with any other picture. He’ll almost certainly decline to enter free agency.
But I mean, if we had Haren and Pettitte were coming back… why would Cashman sign Lee? I don’t think Hal would sign off on it because of the money, and we’d then have 6 pitchers…
The way I see it … a trade for Haren would pretty much tell Pettitte that his days in pinstripes are over. It would also mean that Javy won’t be getting an arbitration offer.
Haren replaces Javy (Haren’s money in ’11, ’12, ’13 isn’t terrible and its less than what AJ makes)
Lee would replace Pettitte
Reggie, can’t see why the Yankees wouldn’t want Pettitte back.
I don’t recall exactly where to link it, but I’m certain I read an article that said Javy talked about wanting to go year to year in the future. He’d almost certainly accept arbitration if so.
And Javy also hates the west coast. If he accepts arbitration, he only has a no-trade until middle of june, he wont take the chance of a trade IMO.
The thing that a lot of people are missing on arbitration is that if a player accepts and is considered signed you can still cut him before opening day and only owe 1/6 of his salary.
Therefore, if any team can take a $2M risk, it is the Yankees. You also can trade him without his permission because he is not a free agent.
If they pass on two picks for a few million then we know the team is being run an accountant.
The non-guaranteed aspect of an arbitration contract only applies if the player doesn’t perform well enough to make the team. You can’t get out of an arbitration contract because you just don’t want to pay the money. If the team tried a stunt like you’re suggesting, the union would immediately file a grievance and would win easily.
this weekend should be interesting. will be waiting on Kay’s announcement this weekend.
Kay’s announcing something?
oops, I meant if the trade does goes through.
Oh, good. Because I wouldn’t want to know what he would be announcing otherwise.
“Back… track… wall… DAN HAREN!!!” ?
Rosenthal was just on the MLB network and he said it’s up to Cash to pull the trigger. If Haren comes to the Yanks, he needs to shave the beard and pick another number ’cause he’s not getting 15.
well if you flip the 5, its #12. that’s a choice. obiviously he’s not getting #51.
Heathcott out of the lineup… nuuuuuuu
Biceps might be acting up again. I think he’s curling too often. he’s ridiculously ripped.
j/k
ZMac, Nova, Noesi, Joba
If that’s what it takes, then do it. It is not a great loss.
What will Haren look like with no facial hair or long hair though. I do not want to think about that.
I’d prefer to keep the package at 4 minor leaguers, but keeping the pitchers’ tab at 3 + 1 hitter (adams or cojo).
However, if it takes 4 pitchers … I can live with a toll of Joba, Nova, Noesi, and Zmac. Of the minor leaguers, losing Nova hurts but you DONT scrap a trade for Dan Haren over it.
Please no ManBan. I seriously love him.
I hear you. Can you live with the package Johan Iz My Brohan has suggested?
Seriously, 2 of those guys listed in the package should make Az’s rotation out of spring training next year. Maybe even 3. I dont see how Arizona turns down that package.
I would take that. Not sure the Diamondbacks would. I would think they would want a guy like Brackman, a high upside/high bust possibility. The guys listed besides Joba seem very unremarkable.
I’d give them a “lottery ticket” in Brackman or Betances. Betances is arguably AA ready and not too far behind Brackman in development. Betances also has a proven minor league track record of mowing down teams.
However, offering one of the tall boys would mean I get to pull Nova OUT. I can definitely see Nova join the relief corps next season or spot start.
I prefer Dellin to Brackman. And definitely take one of the other pitchers out if you throw in Brackman. Keep Nova if possible.
And now my eyes are instantly drawn to every tweet that pops up on my feed to see if it says “deal is done”.
Yay for trade deadline baseball!
Hah, that’s what I was doing during the Lee saga. Now, let’s see what prospect gets hurt so the Dbacks can reneg and trade him to the Rangers.
If the Yankees do land Dan Haren..what happens when Pettitte returns?
6 man rotation? Hughes to the pen? Can’t see them trading Javy when Pettitte is out for atleast a few weeks after the all star break, can we?
Hughes to the pen, it’s supposedly what they were going to do if they got Lee. By the time Andy comes back, Hughes would be nearing his innings limits anyway.
trade deadline i mean.
I think they’re really careful with Pettitte’s return and when he comes back, Hughes to the pen, probably.
As long as there is no Montero or Romine in this deal it is an absolute buy low win for the Yankees. If you see his numbers every season of his career he has been a great #2 or fringe #1.
Haren has also been in the AL before and he’s signed through age 29-33 so he wll still be in his prime during the entire deal or at least close to it.
Let’s hold off on calling it a buy low win until we see the prospects. Jerry DiPoto is a replacement GM who’s only been in office a couple months who likely wants to keep his job. If he’s going to trade away the team’s best player, he better damn well have gotten something for it.
I stand by what I said there is no combination of minor leaguers that are worth more then Haren if Motero and Romine are staying with us. All our other prospects are either to far away so there basically lottery tickets or they are not sure thing type of players.
Keep in mind im not saying right now it’s a buy low win because I haven’t heard what’s being offered im saying if it’s reported our top 2 prospects stay with us it has to be considered a buy low win.
If he’s going to trade away the team’s best player
Funny, I didn’t know you could spell Haren’s name U-P-T-O-N.
Upton’s WAR, 2009: 4.6
Haren’s WAR, 2009: 6.1
Upton’s ahead so far this year party due to Haren’s bloated HR total. I standby my statement, Haren is the team’s best player.
But Upton has more talent, much much much more potential (which is important because the Backs won’t compete now), and have more value.
NO way we trade Joba, thats worse then trading montero
Not if the Yankees don’t view him as a viable starter, which … I’m starting to lose faith that they do
I’m losing faith that he can be a viable starter.
Me too, frankly. It’s really sad but he’s hardly the first this would happen to. TINSTAAPP and all.
If the Yanks do not view Joba as a starter, I’d rather he’s given the chance to start elsewhere. It’s a waste of his talent to be relegated to the pen so early in his career. In fact, I’d go even further and say that if they didn’t see him as a starter going forward, then they should have just traded him before the season, when his value was higher. Of course, my ideal scenario was TSJC’s “Scranton-till-the Stretch.”
No, keeping Joba in the pen is a worse option.
As long as someone else values him as a starter, his value in a trade is more than his value to us in the pen.
i agree with you bro, too much talent… the yankees have lots of guys in their system who will never be good enough to pitch for the yanks, offer those up, and that includes pretty everyone except montero, romine, joba, brackman, dellin… nova, z-mac, noesi, stoney, manban, all those guys are expendable
Heathcott and Nova
rather not give up Heathcott
Just tell me Montero is not part of this and I’ll be okay.
Same here. Losing Joba would hurt, losing Jesus would be a stomach punch.
Get Joba the Fat the hell outta here!
I like Joba, so I’m not one for the derisive nickname.
However, perhaps “Joba the Butt” is the way to go.
Call me when this one is offically done. I still have a Lee hang over.
Ed Price says nothing is imminent between Yanks and Dbacks, but that Arizona is determined to move him before his next start on Tuesday. So if we are to believe this, the trade should happen this weekend some time.
Link: http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/0.....nt-runner/
Personal bias but I don’t trust Ed on anything. Also, a “source with knowledge of the Yankees plans”?? That could be the janitor for all we know.
i think you do a deal that is something like this:
z-mac/david phelps
melancon
nova/noesi
maybe a hitting prospect?
(i chose these prospects only because i heard arizona wants close to major league ready arms, not long term projects)
arizona absolutely NEEDS young pitching so getting 2 (3?) starters and a potentially decent reliever seems like a good deal for them
How about this. Z-Mac, Noesi, Melancon and the take your pick of one on the “Chad Ho Mosley Monster” for Haren. I’d be all for this! Deal Javy before the deadline. Have Mitre and Nova make the next couple of starts for Pettitte. Down the stretch, you have CC, AJ, Andy, Haren, Hughes.
How about this. Z-Mac, Noesi, Melancon and the take your pick of one on the “Chad Ho Mosley Monster” for Haren.
Ron Burgundy: I thought you were kidding! I thought it was a joke, I even wrote it down in my diary. “Veronica had a very funny joke today.”
haha yeah because everyone wants chad ho moseley.
Freaking out, no Montero or Romine and I’m pretty much fucking thrilled. 2.5 years of team control left, do it!
Frankie Piliere saying on Twitter that Nova would be the key piece in the Haren trade. I like Nova but yes please.
Yeah, seriously. But let’s wait to see who else is involved. Though I would think if someone like Joba or Montero was involved, that would have been mentioned.
I’ll carry him to Arizona on my back.
I’ll help out. I’ll get Haren on the first flight out of Arizona to New York.
If Nova is the key piece, I can’t imagine that would be enough to hold up a deal. I think you definitely move Nova and lesser prospects for Haren. I mean, we all might want Lee, and can certainly offer more money than anyone else, but you also don’t know what could happen between now and then. If you can get Haren for Nova as the centerpiece, then you do it and worry about Lee later.
supposedly ivan nova is involved
FrankiePiliere
Hearing that Ivan Nova would be key piece for Arizona in a Haren deal w/ Yankees. Talks progressing
I thought Ben made an excellent point about a Haren deal potentially affecting whether or not the Yanks pusue Lee this off season. But it’s important to note that is “potentially” affect Lee and much can change between now and then. The Yanks may be more down on AJ than we know, and plan to move him in the off season. Or someone could get hurt. Or Andy could retire. You don’t pass up a pitcher like Dan Haren when the D-Backs are holding a fire sale.
You can’t have the position of ‘I really want Lee so I’m against Haren’. That’s just silly. Also, if the Yanks decide to still go after Lee, they will be in a MUCH stronger bargaining position with him. There won’t be any added years like there was with AJ and CC.
no NJ + no andy/javy gives probably enough “budget space” to get lee
with the addition of haren’s $12.5/yr
Johnson: 6 million
Andy: 10 million
Javy: 11.5 million
That’s 27.5 million total.
Haren makes 12.75 in 2011. Quick math tells me that doesn’t leave enough room for Lee.
It puts you with a few mil, and contracts can be back loaded. Let’s not act like we have the 2011 budget nailed down definitively. Those moves put you in the ballpark.
In the ballpark, yes, but you’re talking 5 million more than last year if you add Lee, and it’s actually more than that if you count the luxury tax. I just don’t see it happening.
the yankees can spend, they just won’t unless its a player like lee, teixeira, etc.
and fwiw marte’s coming off the books after 2011 so you can sleep easy knowing that the yankees will be saving $4MM after next year as well
We’re not really talking about after next year, but okay.
pettitte gets 11.75, so thats 29.25-12.75= 16.5
i’m sure cashman could find a few million in the couch cushions to make up the difference
I also don’t think they operate on a “hard” budget, they made things work for Teixeira, and they might consider making them work for Lee.
if they were willing to give up jesus for the guy, they will spend a little extra money to get him as a FA
a whole lotta that.
..and the emergence of Brett Gardner means we don’t need a OF like Werth or Crawford. We’ll have plenty of time to crunch budget numbers, but I’m sure it will work out.
Ditto.
As I said above, if you can essentially get Haren for Nova you do it and worry about next years’ rotation later. Nothing precludes them from also signing Lee, plus it puts you in a better negotiating position and serves as security if Lee signs elsewhere. This is not like the Montero trade where you’re discussing what is essentially a rental. You’re talking about getting a front-end starter who is under team control for several years for prospects who may never pitch for you. It almost makes me think that there has to be something else holding this deal up–perhaps some question about Haren and declining velocity as an injury concern, for instance–because if it’s Nova plus lesser prospects I think you have to take that deal fairly quickly before somebody sobers up.
There have been reports that AZ is in bad shape financially. With the economy being as slow as it is, I think teams are hesitant to add a big payroll commitment. Therefore there are less bidders willing to spend less ion terms of talent. Enter Yanks, with the best offer available.
I’m pretty sure that Lee will have plenty of bargaining power still, that bargaining power being the plethora of other teams that would love to have him.
Very few teams will be able to afford Lee this offseason given the state of many team’s finances and the always increasing difficulty to insure these type of contracts.
People are getting ahead of themselves even penciling Haren into the 2011 rotation.
He would not be difficult to move in the offseason.
Haren has no bearing on Lee. They have coveted Lee for 2 years now.
The rest of this year and 2 more years, plus an option, all at a reasonable cost (even the option is pretty reasonable) for a guy who is having an off year but has been dominant for years? I’m surprised he’s being traded at all…I can’t honestly believe Nova is the centerpiece. I like Nova but geez, not that much. I’m waiting to see what happens there but I’m just not sure I buy that. He might be PART of the deal, but the centerpiece?
If he is, make that trade NOW before someone changes their mind.
Nova?!? bahahahah i love it.
Is Nova a key piece or the key piece…there’s a big difference.
They said he was the key piece. I assume if Montero or Joba were involved (I’d be upset about Montero, sadly not so much about Joba at this point), they would have mentioned that.
Exactly. Everyone knows those two, only serious fans know about Nova. As a news reporter Joba and Montero are the sexier names, you wouldn’t leave them out.
If Brian Cashman really trades for Dan Haren with a package FRONTED by Ivan Nova… wow.
That’s friggin AMAZING. If that deal happened, I would literally slap anyone who ever said he was a bad GM. There’s got to be a permanent moratorium on any Cashman criticism if he swipes both Nick Swisher and Dan Haren for flotsam and jetsam.
This is much more interesting than the game, which is looking like it could get out of hand soon.
I am not ready for another Cliff Lee kind of day. that friday was too much to handle.
I will assume nothing is gonna happen and be delighted if something happens.
For the record, i like our club as is except for the bench and maybe one decent BP arm to take teh Ace role.
I’d expect it to be a 3 P, 1 H deal. My guess is that the pitchers would be Nova, Noesi, and McAllister, as all of them are pretty decent chances to be capable back-of-the-rotation guys, especially for an NL West club like AZ. As far as hitters go, I’d guess Nunez, David Adams, or Corban Joseph.
Of course, the fact that the ball is supposedly in Cashman’s court and he’s mulling over the decision tells me that the package may be a little steeper. Possibly including Brackman? I could see Nova/Noesi/Brackman/Nunez being the deal, because it’d give them two low-ceiling, high-probability (in the NL West) starters, one high-risk, high-ceiling starter, and one low-ceiling, high-probability 2B.
If I were Cash, I’d pull the trigger on that, though. I understand the hesitance, since with Hughes showing his youth, Joba floundering in the bullpen, Betances’s injury history, and Burnett’s immoveable contrac, the team has to put a premium on in-house starting pitching prospects, but all-in-all, I’d still sell high on Brackman, rather than risk his star falling again. Remember, he’s got a 2/3 of a minor league season’s worth of solid, but unspectacular pitching (albeit with nice peripherals), and almost a full minor league season’s worth of suckitude, and he’s 24. There’s just too much risk not to pull the trigger.
thats a lot. take brackman out
Are the D-Backs really dumb enough to trade Haren for Ivan Nova, Hector Noesi, Zach McAllister, and Eduardo Nunez, though? I mean, I’d LOVE that trade, but…no way in hell that it actually happens, right?
I know, it seems impossible. The Diamondbacks can’t be that dumb.
And, more importantly, that can’t be the best package on the table. It just can’t.
I mean, how long would it take the Cardinals/Phillies/Rangers/Angels/Mets/Rays/White Sox/Twins/etc. to top a Nova/Noesi/McAllister/Nuñez package? Like, half a second?
Ruben Amaro could and would top that simply with J.A. Happ and Anthony Gose. I don’t see how the DBacks would accept so little for a premier pitcher in a seller’s market.
since Haren is scheduled to pitch on Tuesday, and for Tuesday’s game against Cleveland, its TBD. hmm interesting!!!!
Montero, Nova, McAllster, and Adam Warren is my guess. I would not do it for that, but thats my guess.
don’t think cash would include montero in a deal for haren
If you took out Montero that would sound good, maybe even too much.
if you think Nova, McAllister, and Adam Warren is too much for Dan Haren, I’d like to try whatever you’re smoking. I agree that the Yankees don’t pull the trigger if Montero’s involved, but still.
There’s nothing for Cashman to ponder if that’s what Arizona wants. Cash wont move Montero for Haren, who’s not in the category of uber-ace as Halladay or Cliff Lee. Haren is good and all and I’d want to add him to the rotation, but i seriously believe that Montero is not involved.
Foxsports Arizona:
By Jack Magruder
FOXSportsArizona.com
Teammates cleaned out Dan Haren’s locker today as a prank, but reality might not be far behind.
The New York Yankees have emerged as the top contender for Haren, according to baseball sources, and a deal could be consummated sooner rather than at the July 31 nonwaiver trade deadline.
The Yankees have the requisite young prospects, according to one major league talent evaluator, and the D-Backs would not require Haren’s approval to make the trade.
CEO Derrick Hall said Thursday the D-Backs need major league-ready pitching in return, and the Yankees have several top pitching prospects
“Their system is actually pretty solid,” the evaluator said.
The deal also may be contingent on the Yankees’ accepting other players the D-Backs are trying to move, such as catcher Chris Snyder and relievers Chad Qualls or Aaron Heilman.
Cashman take Snyder, and have Posada as the DH or vice versa. No wonder the D-Backs would take Nova as the center piece.
Cashman SHOULD take Snyder, and have Posada as the DH or vice versa. No wonder the D-Backs would take Nova as the center piece.
Take Qualls! Heilman nooooo! (But if that’s what it takes, sure, take Aaron.)
I agree, if Cashman doesnt REALLY want him, just DFA him or try to spin him off to another team after the deal goes through.
Nova, Zmac and Albie to Arizona
Haren and Qualls to New York
Qualls back to Arizona for Nova or Zmac?
LOL I like that. Hoping Cashman would try to get Kelly Johnson in return, he would be a good utilty player.
You’re just saying that because I GAVE him to you in our fantasy league..
MORE from that article that I missed:
Most scouts consider catcher Jesus Montero to be the Yankees’ best prospect, but the D-backs appear set at catcher with their Montero, Miguel.
http://www.foxsportsarizona.co.....eedID=3698
Potential package
http://newyorkstateofsports.co.....e-of-mind/
Done and done. Let fans of other teams cry that the Yankees didn’t include Montero, too.
The Yankee brass just doesn’t trust Joba Chamberlain. Since returning to the bullpen, Chamberlain (1-4, 5.66 ERA) has been very inconsistent. With Phil Hughes starting to slow down (106 innings, 18 earned runs over his last four starts), the Yankees may give him a few more turns through the starting rotation before Andy Pettitte returns from his groin injury. Hughes would ultimately reclaim to the 8th inning role that he dominated last season (1.30 ERA).
Bingo.
To me, this potential move screams one thing loud and clear about the 2010 Yankees…
OK, what is that?
The Yankee brass just doesn’t trust Joba Chamberlain.
(stopped reading)
Nova/McAllister/Albaladejo? I’m not buying that gets it done.
You’re telling me with that below-market contract they can’t get a better package from any other team?
Yeah … Add Joba to that package, and now we’re talking about a package that’s probably the best on the table for Arizona.
Joba, Nova, McAllister, Albie … Do. IT.
That said, the package is probably steeper than that. Not Montero or Romine steep, but if I’m the AZ gm, I want a better player than Albie.
If that’s the package, I’d say “Hell yes. No givesies backsies!” and hang up the phone.
Don’t know how credible this guy is but he says it may be Joba, Nova, & Z-Mac. Seems fair, even though I really don’t want to give up Joba yet.
http://twitter.com/Gambo620/status/19379624644
I agree that I don’t want to give up Joba, but he could get very expensive soon, and his talent might not equal his price tag.
He’s going to get expensive soon and if he’s going to be just a reliever, it’s really not worth the price. It’s really too bad that they just killed the kid’s value in the last five months.
If I knew Joba was going to become a shutdown closer, I wouldn’t care about his cost. Trouble is there’s negative guarantee about that.
I really think it’s more likely Cashman doesn’t make the trade if Joba is required, but at the same time, we all know Cash will do as Cash does.
I totally agree with both of you and that’s why I ultimately will be fine with the potential trade. But all those dreams I had of Joba being out #1 starter for years to come will be gone down the drain, though I don’t think the Yanks will make him a starter so you might as well trade him now.
I wonder, if that’s the actual package, will the D-Backs be smart enough to turn him back into a starter. If they’re not, the deal is a fuckin’ steal for the Yankees. A top pitcher for a reliever and two minor leaguers who are #3 starters at best? Oh hell yes.
He killed his own value with the way he pitched as a starter last year as well.
At this point, it may be best for all involved to let Joba go. Girardi said on an interview this morning that he’s “cutting off” and “yanking his pitches” meaning that he just doesn’t trust his stuff anymore. A change of scenery could do wonders for him.
Sure, he didn’t pitch wonderfully but it’s not like he was completely a lost cause. As it’s been parroted across the Internet, he was pitching okay (kinda skating by) when he hit his innings high water mark then fell apart after that. While he didn’t pitch as well as we wanted him too, it was likely wrong of the Yankees to give up on him as a starter so quickly.
He killed his own value with the way he pitched as a starter last year as well.
No.
He pitched fine as a starter when they let him just pitch as a starter. He pitched crappy as a starter when they fucked with him and told him to only throw a certain number of pitches/innings or throw a frame early in the bullpen before the game started or skipped his turn.
Joba’s failures as a starter are partially on him but primarily on the team for having an ass-backward, ill-conceived plan to do the impossible (stretch out 5 months worth of innings over 7 months of season+postseason with no ill-effects).
if he’s going to be just a reliever, it’s really not worth the price
This.
Joba-the-reliever is simply not as valuable to the Yankees as Joba-the-starter is and not worth what it might cost you to keep him in the future. If you view him as nothing but a reliever going forward, then getting a starter of Haren’s caliber for him is practically a steal.*
The Yankees don’t have anyone comparable and I think if I said AJ many people, out of pure emotion, might say yes…but, it’s roughly asking whether you would trade Hughes for a reliever. I expect not many would do that (nor, I’d hope, for AJ for that matter).
*I’d still rather see Joba starting in Scranton and think that his value is still in the Yankees’ rotation in the future, for what it’s worth (which is not much).
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com.....dj-553747/
Gambodoro is a local Talk show host. Could be well connected with the team, or could be a self promoting ass. I’ll guess that he’s connected, because throwing out packages that bear no resemblance to reality doesn’t make him look good. Also, it’s sounds about right.
Is he a Yanks fan, though? That Twitter background makes it seem like it.
is he a yankees fan? haha this might answer your question
http://ktar.com/?sid=1144127&nid=566
From the same guy…
“Just got off phone with my Yankee source — says Nova and McAllister are both top 5 Yankee P prospects, Nova projects as #3 maybe a #2.?
Nova a #2? Maybe for a AAA team.
If other people want to think that…
Right now, Ian Kennedy is their #2. That’s before they trade Haren.
true, but Ian Kennedy >>>>>>>> Ivan Nova
There’s not enough >>>>>>>>>>>’s in there.
aka the NL West.
HAHAHA, I went to Arizona State and this guy is a joke. He’s always wrong and always says he has “sources,” and then turns out to be TOTALLY wrong. Nobody in Phoenix takes him seriously. Just another guy who yaps about shit he knows nothing about. Take what he says with less than a grain of salt…
That said, I’d love a deal for Haren. Somewhat skeptical on giving up Joba, but for a top pitcher? Definitely worth it.
This would be a great pick-up for the Yankees. Haren has been a consistent pitcher and has a reasonable contract extending a couple years. Getting him under these terms for mid-level prospects is a much better deal than sending Jesus Montero for a few-month rental of Cliff Lee. I don’t see why people are so eager to give another pitcher a huge — possibly 100-million-dollar — multi-year deal running through his 30s.
This is very exciting. I’d hate to see Joba go, but if it must happen in order to get Haren, then fine. Ideally, the Yanks retain Joba and land Haren.
In Cashman I trust.
I wouldn’t mind giving up Nova, Noesi, and Z-Mac in a deal for Haren. Maybe even another C+ or B prospect. Maybe they are really that worried about Pettitte.
Would Joba/Nova and maybe Joseph seem about right. And people are automaticaly talking about Nova being in the deal but who knows what the D’backs are liking…Maybe they bite on a Brackman
The one reason i think its NOT brackman, is the escalators in the ML contract that hikes the value north of $12 MM. I’m not sure the Dbacks want to take on that kind of salary, when Betances or Noesi or Warren are alternatives.
This is becoming EPIC.
I hope Cashman can lock this deal tonight! Secondary pieces … hmm. Can’t ever have too many power pitchers so i’m thinking Noesi + Betances, both of which could become quality relievers, at the minimum.
Woah, where did we get this talk of Noesi and Betances? I thought it was potentially just Nova, ZMac and Joba.
I’m just bracing myself for a surprise hit. I’m not sure if secondary pieces will be capped at 1 other pitcher. I’m thinking its a couple other players. Likely both of ‘em are going to be pitchers.
If i’m the Arizona GM, i would demand another lottery ticket.
I still have faith in Joba and REALLY hope he’s not in the deal.
I wouldn’t mind too much. I wouldn’t like to see Joba go, but if the Yankees get Haren for Joba plus Nova and McAllister (or any other non top 10 prospect) I think you have to do that trade.
That’s too much IMO. Obviously Joba still has potential, and although Nova and McAllister aren’t top prospects, you can’t really call them scrubs. And where does this lead us for the offseason and Cliff Lee?
Ah, mind on overload right now.
I disagree that it’s too much. Leaving Joba aside, Nova is what? A #3 at best? Ditto for McAllister, who hasn’t impressed one little bit at AAA. I’d wager that Haren will be worth a lot more in the next year or two than Z-Mac and Nova combined. As for Joba, well, I’d miss him a lot but you’ve got to give to get, right? Plus, if the D-Backs do something silly and make him a reliever, then the deal looks even better for the Yankees.
Well that’s just the thing. Look at what we’re getting. I’ve always seen Haren as an “NL Pitcher” who would get eaten alive in the AL East, which is why I’m not so hot on dealing Joba for a guy who may not cut it in the Bronx.
Not to mention, where does this lead us with our pursuit of Cliff Lee this winter?
I don’t agree with that. I think Haren’s got good stuff and he did pitch well during his three years in the AL with the A’s.
And there are several NL pitchers who have stuff that translates to the AL East. Those pitchers are guys with strikeout stuff and good command/control, which Haren is.
Hence why I said he’s a strikeout pitcher.
Yezzur.
Dan Haren used to pitch in the American League. He’s a strike-out pitcher on top of that.
Bingo.
Regrettably, yes. But that’s only because this team apparently isn’t going to give Joba another shot at the rotation, which he deserves.
It’s going to suck when Joba is moved back into the rotation and is a better starting pitcher than Dan Haren 2 years from now, though.
This.
Nope, it’ll suck until Joba’s in the last year of arbitration, Arizona can’t afford to re-sign him, and they trade him back to us in a salary dump.
Then we thank them for saving us from ourselves with Joba’s development.
I hear you, but don’t you get the feeling that the Joba ship has sailed in NY? I can’t shake this feeling that the team (and certainly the MSM and general fanbase) sees him as old news…even a failed experiment, as sad as that is to say.
You may be right.
And if you are, that’s even fucking worse. Because it means the team braintrust is irredeemably impatient and stupid.
That would be a bad reason for trading Chamberlain.
Agreed, and I’m not saying that it’s the reason they trade him, just that their defenses against doing so are weakened due to the last couple of up-and-down seasons that Joba’s endured.
Also, if this trade goes down, it’s not like they’re giving him away for a role player. Haren is talented, young, and team controlled (and more of a “sure thing” than Joba at this point). Not exactly a bag of balls.
Shoud start calling AZ as Pitt-West if that goes down.
I think Joba’s value is too low to include in any trade right now.
yessirrr your right!
So, we go from a potential Joba + maybe a prospect or 2 for Doc to Joba + definitely 2 or 3 prospects for Haren. SMH! Including Joba in this deal is admitting a mistake. Cashman really should not do this right now. Give Joba more time before admitting if it was a mistake to say no to Joba for Halladay.
Is there any young player it would be ok, in your eyes, for the Yankees to trade?
The trade for Halladay would have included Hughes or Montero possibly in addition to Joba.
I don’t think there was ever a real deal in place to trade Joba for Halladay straight up. If there was, then I apologize. But if not, I’m pretty sure it would have taken, Joba plus two other prospects to get a Halladay deal done.
Haren is a really good pitcher, and there’s a possibility Joba never turns it around. Heck, even if Joba does turn it around it might be as a reliever. Haren is too good to pass up, even if his ERA isn’t looking great right now.
Joba was not the centerpiece of the proposed Halladay trade.
Not the one in the offseason. Last July, the Jays supposedly asked for either Hughes or Joba as the centerpiece. Also, the Montero offer you’re thinking of was supposedly proposed by Cashman, not Toronto.
Cashman has traded for enough players when their trade vaues were less that I think he should think 10 times before he trades Joba. So many great pitchers have had roller coaster starts, just dont lose the forest by focusing too much on the trees.
He may have a great career, but it looks like it will be in the bullpen. And he’ll never be Mo (no one ever will), therefore I give him up for 4 years of Haren.
Yeah, plus the chances of Joba becoming a great pitcher are dwindling. There’s a good chance Joba never becomes the player we had all hoped he’d become.
There’s also a chance he still becomes a great pitcher, but at this point I’d take that chance to acquire Haren.
An with that said I vote they talk to the Royals about a possible Greinke for Joba, Jose Ramirez, and Mcallister
I seriously doubt the Royals are trading Greinke.
They mentioned in tonight’s broadcast that Greinke is on the market but they have to be “blown away.” (Kay also said that Soria is on the market, for the right price.)
Ah, okay. I was out all day. Thanks for the update.
However, like you said “the Royals would have to be blown away.” Which means the Yankees would have to probably part with Montero, Joba, and some other really good prospects. Dan Haren appears to cost a lot less.
Something to think about: Consider Greinke’s mental health problems in the past. I think a major market like NY (or Philly or Boston for that matter) could be a very dangerous place. (I stress COULD be.)
I dbt he ever agrees to come play for the major markets.
I agree. And, if true, I wonder how that will impact his career and “legacy.”
I wonder how that will impact his career and “legacy.”
/Lebron’d
LeBron doesn’t have a legacy. That’s weird…
He should have a lot of fun playing with “Dwyane Wade’s South Beach Heat™”, though.
(h/t Bill Simmons’s mailbag)
Well played.
So, if the D-Backs actually go through and don’t cop out at the last minute, what number does Haren get? I think he gets 17. It’s the automatic number he gets whenever I trade him from Arizona to the Yanks in MLB 10 The Show.
Can you edit his hair and facial hair off? I’m a little scared of how that might look.
17 is Werth’s number when the Yankees trade Grandy and Javy for him.
/notsureifserious
Nope, he stays with his long hair and beard.
http://images.publicradio.org/.....aren_3.jpg
found it…..
if Haren does land in NY, I think he would choose #12 (flip 5, it would be 2) OR wear #55 since it was one of his old numbers.
I feel like if Joba gets traded he will be a stud for the Diamondbacks. But if he doesn’t, he will stink up the joint here. Trade him.
I feel like if Joba gets traded he will be a stud for the Diamondbacks. But if he doesn’t, he will
stink up the joint herestay in the bullpen forever, making him fairly irrelevant.Fixed.
Haha, pretty much.
You’re old enough to know this for sure, and I’m definitely not (23) but if the Yankees do hold on to Joba and don’t let him start, could it be Righetti part two?
Allow me to expand–what I hear from fans old enough is that the 1980s Yankees were basically one SP short of being awesome and converting DR to an RP hurt that goal.
Yeah, I can see that. It’s a definite possibility.
Righetti was probably a worse in the sense that he was left-handed, but there are many similarities between the two situations. In his second season, he struggled with control issues and the Yankees ended up sending him down to AAA to work out some issues. After a solid season #3 he was ultimately moved to the pen because the team let Gossage go and needed a “lights out” closer. They also indicated that there was “no room” in the rotation. Several years later there was talk about Righetti going back into the rotation, but I don’t recall why that didn’t take place.
Anyway, I think my first post ever on RAB was about Righetti and the Hughes/Joba situation. Here’s the link:
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-482562
Well, I guess for the historical record it wasn’t my first post (since it indicates I posted before), but I’m fairly certain it was really early on.
Sad but true. I honestly thought that with last year’s win they will have a little patience and try Joba out again in the rotation. After 2009, he deserved a shot, the fans that saw sense in their decision deserved to see that, just sucks.
Who has he traded that we are now regretting? AJax hasn’t been lighting the world on fire, Ian Kennedy is a solid starter in the NL West but would have been blasted in the AL East, Cutch/Karstens/Steven Jackson/Tabata/Arodys is injured now/Melky/Dunn/Betemit? Where is this mythical prospect that we shouldn’t have gotten rid of?
Check the game thread. Phil Coke is apparently the second coming of Cy Young.
Curtis Granderson, 2010 WAR: +1.3
Phil Coke, 2010 WAR: +0.7
Cookiepuss’s mind: BLOWN
Is Cookiepuss the new Lanny? I saw someone link to a stupid comment of his, yesterday on twitter.
What is Ajax’s WAR?
2.7 WAR according to Fangraphs
Awwwww SNAP!
Yeah, his bat isn’t as good as earlier in the year though. (He was getting really lucky, still is .419 BABIP.)
So, he isn’t necessarily as good as what his WAR suggests.
+1
Even going back a ways, the prospects/young players we traded who did become good were not even all-star level- guys like Juan Rivera, Nick Johnson.
And we have to recognize that the game’s not played in a vacuum. Trading Joba now might be a waste of his value and talent, but Joba’s inherent value is not the same as his value to the Yankees. A team as excellent as the Yankees are right now simply might not be the right place to develop a temperamental talent like Joba.
Very few teams around baseball view Joba as a starter.
The interesting part of the speculation with Nova being a key piece and the Diamonbacks coveting McAllister for quite some time now is how they view Joba.
They said they want pitchers, starters and bullpen, so it will be interesting to see if they view Joba as part of the bullpen piece.
What may be holding this up is that Cashman does not want to sell Joba as a reliever.
What may be holding this up is that Cashman does not want to sell Joba as a reliever.
After the decision they made in March, not to let him start at AAA, there’s literally no way he can sell Joba as a starter. Even if the other team viewed Joba as a starter, why would they even bother letting on? That team could just say ‘Well if you don’t think he’s a starter, why should we think that?’ That move in March killed Joba’s trade value, IMO.
Front offices generally have a sense or can gather information from sources on how a player like Joba is regarded by their peers.
They wouldn’t be able to sell Joba as the 2008 future frontline pitcher, but if Joba had pitched well in the bullpen this year they would have much more sway in attempting to sell him as a starter depending on the organization they were talking to.
In the end it matters more how the team’s top scouts project a player like Joba in the future than the position he plays for the Yankees.
So while, Joba’s trade value has certainly taken a hit it is probably not as drastic as you think. It is kind of similar to a degree to Montero struggling in the first half this year, but that doesn’t change his trade value at all because he was still so highly regarded by the scouts.
Very few teams around baseball view Joba as a starter.
Source? Link? I question that. Just because we may not view him that way doesn’t mean others don’t view him that way.
If Joba is the centerpiece of a deal to get Haren, the DBacks are moving him back into the rotation instantly. (Well, by 2011, at least). That’s a guarantee. They’re not trading Haren for a reliever, they’re trading him for a starter, and that starter is Joba.
Also, scouts/GM’s could just say that they view Joba as a reliever to help reduce his value. It doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what they believe.
That too.
According to the rumors Joba is not the centerpiece. Nova is and they have apparently also coveted McAllister.
Both those guys would be starters for them.
That’s not what I asked you, though. I asked you what information did you see that supported your claim that “very few teams around baseball view Joba as a starter.”
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
People I trust
Are you referring to the brain-trust you have that comment at LoHud?
I’m in no way trying to sound offensive, by the way.
ZZ, are you really going to use the “I know a guy” line?
Really? Come on, you’re better than that.
“Teams don’t view Joba as a starter. How do I know that? Because I do. I can’t tell you why. I just do. I know things.”
That’s weak, ZZ.
I agree. Anyone here can say the same thing.
He might be right. We might find out. Inner-workings of deals sometimes come out afterward.
Why don’t you both man up and make a wager?
Of course it is weak, because I can’t prove it.
It is one of those tidbits you put in the bank and wait and see what role Joba is put in when/if he is traded.
And if I am wrong I am putting myself out there to be ridiculed later
Haha. Alright.
As long as you stick to your word, I’m cool with that. You usually make good points, so I have some trust in what you say.
What may be holding this up is that Cashman does not want to sell Joba as a reliever.
I guess that’s a possibility. The only reason I can see Cashman doing this, is to make Joba appear to be more valuable. In affect possibly costing the Yankees less in a trade.
This is just speculation of course.
How do you know how many teams view Joba as a starter? Do you have inside info or are you making things up?
I am not making it up.
Okay, then… show us how you arrived at the conclusion, then.
Because it seems illogical to say that most teams in baseball don’t view a kid who’s still under 25 and up until July of last year had been one of the top young starting pitching prospects in all of baseball as “not a starter”.
Like you said about Montero, prospects don’t just lose that much value that quick based on a small amount of struggles. Joba’s been a great young starter far longer than he’s been a struggling bullpen guy with poor results (but good peripherals).
I don’t see how the majority of teams in baseball wouldn’t immediately move Joba back into the rotation the moment they got their hands on him. That’s where his value and potential lies.
This.
For a while many scouts never saw Joba holding up as a starting pitcher because of his body type and his mechanics.
It was never about him grunting and farting and being a bulldog as people like Mike Francesa likes to say.
He simply wasn’t viewed as a pitcher who could hold up for 200 innings a year.
His performance in 2009 cemented that belief for a lot of people, because behind his performance up to July were bad signs in terms of his qualitative ability as a pitcher.
So many people like to say how could the Yankees move Joba to the bullpen when he pitched so well until he got “jerked around.” But the Yankees never really even considered as the 5th starter because of the problems behind the performance and how little confidence they had in projecting that to continue or hold up at all.
You can’t blame the Yankees for his performance this year yet fans are finally starting to see all the concerns about Joba’s mechanics and body type.
But the problem with your hypothesis, ZZ, is that there are scores of pitchers with those exact same questionmarks (his body can’t handle 200 innings a year, his conditioning is poor, his mechanics are horrible, his makeup isn’t right, etc) who still remain starters for teams all across baseball based solely on their considerable upside. Rich Harden and Mark Prior leap to mind, for example. Shit, Dan Haren himself had significant durability concerns but nobody gave up on him either.
They had serious long-term health/mechanics/conditioning questionmarks, but nobody gave up on them as starters, because of the reward. The light at the end of the tunnel, which Joba most definitely still has.
Joba has shown great potential to be a great starting pitcher, and the Yankees might be the only team in baseball NOT patient enough to wait on that potential to manifest itself. The idea that most teams wouldn’t have him start is fairly counterintuitive. Most teams would have him start because they know if they can succeed, they’ve found a goldmine.
And the TSJCman delivers! (Doesn’t roll well off the tongue, but you get the point.)
/Melky’d
The problem is though that people may never see that potential as a realistic scenario.
You are thinking of the potential Joba showed in 2007-2008, but he has changed considerably as a pitcher since then. It is hard to believe at times that it is even the same guy we saw a couple years ago.
If he was the pitcher that had so much potential as a starting pitcher, the Yankees wouldn’t be trading him as a sidepiece in a deal.
As a pitcher with just 3 years of team control left, if the team that trades for him really does view him as a reliever they are not going to spend that valuable time you control a player fighting what they believe.
The most telling part about all these rumors if true, is that Nova is the centerpiece and not Joba.
That tells you about how Joba’s upside is viewed.
The most telling part about all these rumors if true, is that Nova is the centerpiece and not Joba.
That tells you about how Joba’s upside is viewed.
No it doesn’t.
It tells you how fuckin’ stupid the Diamondbacks could potentially be. Joba the starter or Joba the reliever are both far better than Ivan Nova the anything. If they take a Nova-centric package instead of a Joba-centric package, it isn’t a referendum on anything other than the Diamondbacks stupidity.
I would put the Diamonbacks’ baseball knowledge and acuity over yours 10 out of 10 times. Just saying, it’s your opinion not gospel.
That is pretty bold to assert that you know more about the 2 players respective upside and future as major league pitchers than the Diamonbacks front office and high level scouts.
He heard it from people he trusts.
Even if this weren’t a joke what could these people possibly tell him with a straight face?
Does the fact that Kenny Williams took Jeff Marquez, Wilson Betemit, and Jhonny Nuñez in a trade for Nick Swisher and Kanekoa Texeira mean that Kenny Williams knows more about Marquez, Betemit, and Nuñez than I do?
No, it doesn’t.
So you know more about baseball than Kenny Williams? Just about certain prospects? About what?
Ozzie wanted Swish gone, gone, gone.
The point is that people employed by baseball teams are not by default smarter or more knowledgeable than people not employed by baseball teams. Some are, of course… others are not.
I’m sure that big league GMs have access to levels of detailed scouting reports that I as a mere fan never get a chance to see, but that doesn’t mean that if one of them happens to like Ivan Nova’s future better than Joba Chamberlain’s future that they’re right and I’m wrong. Nor does it mean that all their colleagues also feel that way about Messrs. Nova and Chamberlain. It just means that’s what they think, that’s all.
Having access to more information doesn’t make you more right or more correct in your decisionmaking by default. Our elected representatives at all levels of government have access to the best analytical research in the Western Hemisphere and still make innumerable bad decisions.
Hey, I don’t agree with you. No biggie. The people that are good at this whole prospect thing make money off of it even if they are not in an MLB front office. I’ll take their word over a fan’s any day of the week. Can the fan be right, hell yeah, but baseball is about averages. The pro will be better than the fan more than wrong.
Besides in that trade one GM was right and one was wrong. The point that ZZ was making is that Joba is considered a RP by GM’s and scouts. He can’t possibly know what all GM’s and scouts are thinking, but if that is the case, I would take their word over your word any day of the week.
Looks like Gonzo is covering what I would respond, so I will just say one last thing.
I think your view on Joba is much higher than the reality of the situation.
On that note, goodnight. Nice convos today.
Mike Francesa told him.
Win.
JOBBER IS AN 8th INNING PITCHA!!!!
just thinking about how much debate there was about Joba Chamberlain. Starter…Reliever…starter that goes 3 innings…future closer..
/good times’d
I still can’t get over that Nova was as Rule 5 return!
Could the Yankees get away with only giving up guys like Zmac, Nova, and then a positional prospect like Nunez or Adams if they take both Snyder and Heilman/Qualls contracts?
I wouldn’t expect so, but I would be aoretty psyched if they did. I would imagine that another team could trump that in prospects by far to outweigh the salary relief. That’s my thought process though.
Nah. That’s not gonna happen.
Heilman and Qualls both walk after this year. Chris Snyder isn’t a half-bad offensive player, and if he’s an okay catcher, I would think the D-Backs can fetch a separate set of B-level prospects for Snyder from a catching starved playoff contender.
Heilman has a contract? WTF? What idiot team would give that horse excrement a contract other than a minor league min?
The Diamondbacks.
And the Cubs. Or was that a trade? I forgot.
The Mets
/thread
Touche.
Dbacks wont take Jesus because they have a Montero of their own who is quite the catcher. Nova, Noesi, Z-Mac and another pitcher would work for me…somehow I dont see the Yankees giving up Joba.
So the Dbacks don’t want one of the best prospects in the league? Montero could be taught to play another position (possibly firstbase.) I think the Yankees just aren’t willing to trade him, and if they don’t have to, they won’t.
Miguel Montero holds the catcher position and I believe they would prefer to keep first open long term because Mark Reynolds is a horrible defesive third basemen
Even if this is the case, Montero is more valuable than any other prospect the Yankees have. If they wanted to keep Montero short-term they could. They can always swap him for someone else.
My point is, Montero is too valuable for a team not to want him. He can be the backup catcher/firstbasemen for a bit, and then if they want to trade him (or Mark Reynolds) they can get a lot of value in return.
That.
If you don’t have a position for Jesus Montero because of Miguel Montero, trade for Jesus and then use him to get something else you need.
Exactly.
If the Yankees give up Joba, he’ll be on a team that can actually develop him. I wouldn’t mind.
Exactly. Losing a player with untapped potential, who might very well turn it around later, is not the worst thing in the world. It is if your a money and talent poor franchise, but not if your the Yankees. Unless the player in question is an absolute game-changing, best in the game talent, a potential Felix Hernandez/Hanley Ramirez, which Joba almost certainly is not, you live with it and take the trade-off, especially if your getting an excellent piece like Haren in return.
Totally agree. I think the bottom line, not all top 10/5 prospects reach their full potential. At some point you have to cut bait. He may bounce back,, he may not. At this point it may not make sense for the Yanks to find out, or maybe they have figured it out already.
Now if the Yankees put him in a starter role I wouldn’t give him up but I have no faith that they would anymore. If he’s stuck here as a reliever then I don’t mind at all. Joba still has game chancing ceiling but on the Yankees he likely won’t get it unless they have plans to convert him yet again.
If Arizona would trade Haren without getting a Joba, or a Montero then they have to be: 1: Stupid. 2: Broke. 3: They think there is something wrong with Haren. From a Yankee perspective, if a trade for Nova etc, is made, the Mariners may have done the Yankees a major favor by not making the Montero trade. Is Lee better than Haren? Of course, kbut eeping Montero and getting Haren would be better than Lee and no Montero.
Definitely. Especially when we’re still pretty likely to get Lee anyway.
I don’t know if I like the idea of trading Joba. For all his problems it seems to me that they are selling low on him.
Haren’s a very good pitcher. I wouldn’t really call it selling low on him. He’s not being developed as a starter so it makes the trade bearable.
Personally I’d rather let Nova/Mitre give us league average production then signing Cliff Lee but this move isn’t bad at all. Now if you trade Montero with Joba on the other hand…
I just don’t like the idea of giving up on Joba for a pitcher that I consider a luxury as opposed to a necesity. Would Haren make the Yankees better? Absolutley, but I just don’t believe that they need to get him. Keep the prospects and you still have a winning ball club.
I see the point. And I agree. Even if Joba isn’t a starter, he’ll be a good reliever. There’s value in that tough as a starter he’ll get more but that’s besides the point. The difference is the value we’ll get from Haren will likely be more than Joba will get in his career if he just relieves assuming Haren signs a huge ass extension.
But if we keep Joba, we keep a pitcher with good potential for cheap.
I just don’t like the idea of giving up on Joba for a pitcher that I consider a luxury as opposed to a necesity
You do realize Haren is MUCH better than Joba. And there’s a decent chance Joba never becomes as good as Haren.
Is Joba a necessity? No. And he might never be.
Haren is a great pitcher, and you can never have enough of those. I love prospects as much as the next guy, but you have to realize that these guys usually don’t pan out. Haren is a proven very, very good starter.
Having Haren could be the difference in winning the World Series this year. Not only that, but Haren stays under contract until 2012 and he has a club option for 2013. Which means the Yankees could have Haren pitch well for them for multiple seasons.
Joba might never do that. Is it worth waiting to find out? Not if you can get Haren. If Joba doesn’t become a great starter with the Yankees, it makes absolutely no sense not to trade for Haren.
If you can get better, why not? I mean, if Joba still had prospect status would he be a top 5, 15, 50 talent? Also the Yankees aren’t exactly a team you “work on things” when you are on their club. That’s for other teams.
~Also the Yankees aren’t exactly a team you “work on things” when you are on their club. That’s for other teams.~
I fear that this mentality is what limited the Yankees sucess (in Yankee terms) in their years of relative drought, if anything the exceptional tallent of the roster should give the Yankees the luxury of being patient with one or two players. I like most Yankee fans want them to win now at most any cost but sometimes patience is a better course.
I think you have to try and win when you can win. Don’t save anything for the trip back. There will be a lot of big contracts that will be likely underperforming soon enough. Got ‘em, smoke ‘em.
But you aren’t just getting Haren for one season. The Yankees would get him for 2.5-3.5 seasons. That’s not just a “win now” mentality.
And even if the Yankees are patient, you’re assuming Joba becomes a good starter, when there’s a chance this will never happen.
I wouldn’t consider my reluctance towards this deal centered solely around Joba, I just believe the orginization should hold on to their prospects for a greater need on another day.
If the Yankees are going to deal for a starting pitcher, of the options available, I agree that Haren is the best available. Although despite his performance with Oakland I still don’t like deals for NL pitchers.
There is no sure thing in NY baseball whether it be prospects or established players. That’s what makes it so interesting.
Dan Haren is a very good pitcher. I’m not sure if you understand that. Joba didn’t appear to have that much value when the Yankees converted him back to a reliever.
This isn’t really selling low because you’re talking about getting an All-Star quality pitcher.
Would you be willing to trade anything of value for Haren? You have to give up something to get something.
And next year we could have Montero+Lee+Haren (or prospects that we could get for trading Haren)We could do what Seattle did with Cliff Lee, get Haren on the cheap, and get a top 50 guy for him in the offseason plus a few other pieces. I think it is a win win. We get a great starter with a below market deal that is signed for a few more years, or we get a valuable trade chip that could add even more pieces to our inventory for someone like Nova who would most likely fill an Aceves role to us, Joba who we all believe will stay a reliever, Z-Mac who has seen his prospect status drop significantly as his stuff has declined.
Anyone remember this?
http://www.artsnow.com/img/4-13375050-0-0-1
LOL.
So much for THAT.
Hey…we still got one that seems to be untouchable.
Hughes appears to be the best one, and thankfully that’s the guy the Yankees kept.
The deal ain’t done yet. They could pull a Mariner’s on us. Damn #6org.
I know the deal isn’t done, haha. Weird, I didn’t even realize what I had said.
I hope the deal goes through though.
I hate to say it, but the Phils are lurking and Amaro is probably getting reeled in right now.
That was written? Or is that what you think?
Any links? Or are you just assuming?
Just my thinking. I have friends that are Phils fans that are clamoring for Haren right now.
Ah okay.
Like I said above, if the Yankees offer is really Nova and stuff (or even Joba and Nova and stuff), those are both packages that the Phillies can and should beat quite easily. They need Haren way more than we do, so they’d part with guys like Anthony Gose or JA Happ or Jared Cosart and blow our package out of the water.
NOO!!! Do not ruin this TSJC!
Sorry, my bad.
Like I said above,
if the Yankees offer is really Nova and stuff (or even Joba and Nova and stuff), those are both packages that the Phillies can and should beat quite easily. They need Haren way more than we do, so they’d part with guys like Anthony Gose or JA Happ or Jared Cosart and blow our package out of the water.we’re totally going to get Dan Haren for Ivan Nova, Eric Wordekemper, Phil Bartelski, and J.B Cox. Book it.Trading Haren for a package centered around Joba is not “selling low,” it’s armed robbery. My hopes were just as high for him as anyone else, but they got crushed when he became a reliever for the foreseeable future. And even more so when he became an extremely unlucky reliever that hasn’t had a 1-2-3 inning in what seems like forever.
Bob Klapisch says getting Haren would not preclude the Yankees from signing Lee. He also says the Yankees, until informed otherwise, are operating under the assumption Pettitte will retire.
http://twitter.com/BOBKLAP
Dbacks CEO says Yanks are not frontrunner: http://www.foxsportsarizona.co.....eedID=3702
And the rollercoaster ride begins. Kinda surprised he went right out there and had himself on the record saying that.
It never really made much sense to me. Our need for Haren is the smallest, and our prospects we’d give them (since Montero/Romine were off limits) were the most fringy.
The Mets/Cardinals/Phillies/Reds/etc. jumping in with a better package of prospects still seems like the most likely endgame of this Haren sweepstakes.
Giving up pretty rather quickly are we?
Lack of news must be a bad sign for the Yankees…
Not necessarily. From what I have read, the talks are supposed to continue into the weekend. We should know soon enough.
Cashman is a ninja. We don’t always know what he’s doing until it’s close to being done.
We’re all gonna be shocked when he trades Lance Pendleton and Austin Krum for Ted Lilly and Mike Fontenot to fill the holes in the rotation and bench in one fell steal-swoop.
Haren starts Tuesday, right? So I would put that as the soft deadline.
Yup. And supposedly they want to trade him before that. So I would think we should know by like, Sunday. I would bet that if nothing happens by Monday, it ain’t happening.
If Joba isnt in the deal and the trade is Nova and Zmac+ the GM should be fired on the spot.
Update from ESPN.com. Sounds like they aren’t close.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=5405807
Well…so much for that, I guess.
Makes more sense when you hear the names being thrown around by the Yanks
They must have come here and realized Cashman was going to fleece them.
Yeah, cause ESPN is ALWAYS right.
Apparently the deal was Joba + Nova and two prospects. Cash Turned it down according to Jason Stark
http://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/19396377746
I don’t understand this fascination with keeping Joba. Frontline starter for a shitty reliever? Let Joba go to a place where he can be developed as a starter and not jerked around every season. And Nova? He’s, at best, a #4 starter in New York. This is disappointing.