Deadline dealing: D-backs listening on Haren
ByLuis Gonazlez’s RBI single that fell just to the edge of the outfield where Derek Jeter could have caught it had the infield not been in seems like just yesterday to Yankee fans. To the Diamondbacks, though, that moment of glory is long gone. This year’s team, currently 37-59, miles away from first place, is en route to a second consecutive last place finish, and with the trade deadline near, Arizona is holding a very attractive piece in pitcher Dan Haren.
To the uninitiated, Haren might not seem like much. His 7-8 record with a 4.60 ERA is nothing to write about, but those numbers, as they so often don’t, can’t capture the full story. Outside of Roy Oswalt, Haren is the best pitcher still available at the deadline this year. In 141 innings, he has struck out 141 hitters, best in the NL, and he’s walking just under two per nine innings pitched. The home runs have been his bugaboo this year, but even while surrendering 23 longballs, his FIP is still a nifty 3.84 and his xFIP 3.39.
And so, inevitably, many teams are interested in Dan Haren, and Buster Olney just happened to hear this: The Yankees are one of them. Even though Andy Pettitte will probably be out only for a few weeks, targeting Haren makes perfect sense. The right-hander would be a fit for any contender, and the Yankees know that pitching is what will separate the AL champion from the rest of the very competitive pack. The club also realizes that Phil Hughes is facing an innings limit. Haren would give them a plus arm as the innings mount.
Haren, though, will not come cheap. He’s signed through 2012 with a $15.5 million club option for 2013, and he’s set to make only $12.75 million in both 2011 and 2012. In a market where A.J. Burnett and John Lackey can both make upwards of $82 million for five years, Haren’s deal is a downright steal. The Yankees know that; the Diamondbacks know that; any team kicking the tires on Haren knows that.
Once upon a time, Arizona had let it be known that they wanted two Major League pitchers in exchange for Haren, and potential partners let it be know that the D-backs were off their collective rockers. Now, though, the price has come down, but the team still wants an A-plus package. “Ideally what we would ask for is major-league ready pitching, be it starters and/or bullpen, and prospects,” club CEO Derrick Hall said yesterday. “The volume doesn’t matter. It doesn’t need to be four or five or six guys. It’s really about the quality.”
The Yankees match up, and as Jayson Stark said yesterday, the club is quietly letting other teams know they want to make some deals. Currently, says Stark (second item), the Yankees are “actively talking” with Arizona. If the deal “just involves prospects, they appear poised to jump into those talks aggressively.” In fantasyland, the Yankees could try to offer a Hector Noesi, a Romulo Sanchez or an Ivan Nova for Haren, but the realistic trade proposal probably starts with Joba Chamberlain.
Despite nearing arbitration, Joba is still cost-controlled, young and a viable Major League pitcher. He could be a starter; he could be a bullpen guy; he could be both. Depending on the prospects — and it always depends upon the prospects — the Yanks should be willing in a heartbeat to flip Joba in a Haren trade. Maybe that too has an element of fantasy in it, but it’s a fair starting point for both sides.
Any trade for Haren would have a cascade effect on the Yanks’ plans and would probably shift their off-season targets from another pitcher to a bat. With Haren on board, Cliff Lee wouldn’t be as imperative of a pick-up for the club, and it’s debatable if the Yanks would have room for him in their budget. If Andy Pettitte were to return for 2011, a decision that many beat writers have said seems to be an inevitable, the rotation would effectively be full. But I’m getting ahead of the situation a bit.
Today, at least four teams, including the Tigers, Phillies and Cardinals, are very interested in Haren. If the Yankees are serious, they have the pieces to get the deal done, and with the trade deadline eight days away, the speculation will wrong strong until then. Buckle up; it’s time for that wild ride that is late July.
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Heard this: baseball games involve pitching and batting.
The Royals “like” Jeff Francouer, according to Ken Rosenthal. Why does this not surprise me.
Jeff Francouer is not Dan Haren. Please remember that off-topic comments should go here.
My bad, thought this column kind of had a general trade speculation feel
Getting Haren solves 2 problems- good solid starter added to the rotation and a good RH bat off the bench. Dude can rake.
Serious question, why doesn’t CC ever pinch hit? You can immediately pinch run him with Pena or Curtis. Sure it’s one less defensive sub, but if we’re down 2+ in the ninth why not take the chance?
1) Who would he pinch hit for?
2) Why risk him pulling something?
2) Why risk him pulling something?
Ding ding ding. After watching Wang go down after running the bases and seeing Buchholz hit the DL because of it, there’s no way Girardi or Cashman would take the risk. CC is worth millions upon millions of dollars, you don’t risk that kind of investment any more than you have to.
Is there a major problem with NL pitchers runner the bases? You’ve gotta figure actually doing it more than once a year helps.
Well he would pinch hit for Curtis or someone….which would make him being pinch run for kind of useless I admit, but the one key at-bat could be worth it in the right scenario.
As for the injury risk, would it be a huge risk if he actually took bp every day and was conditioned to bat occasionally? I can’t imagine it would deter too much from his current routine. Major Leaguers are in great physical condition, is it that much of a stretch to as a pitcher to step in the box once or twice a week? NL pitchers do it, and it doesn’t make them worse at throwing the baseball.
I’m not saying throw him in there now, but if the dude’s got the power, isn’t it just a lame excuse to say ‘he doesn’t NEED to do it’?
Yeah but keep in mind…good hitter “for a pitcher” doesn’t necessarily equal “good hitter”. His actual career batting line is bad, and he hit way worse in Milwaukee than people think. Even without the risk of him getting hit by a pitch or pulling something running, you’d probably be better off just using Pena or Curtis to hit.
“Save the Big 3!”
So they can be traded for Curtis Granderson, Dan Haren and ????
I like it.
And no one. I’ve always liked Phil Hughes the most out of all three.
Troy Tulowitzki? Now?
The Rockies would have to collapse in the second half of this year and all of next year before they’d think about that.
But I would give up just about anyone for Tulo.
I have an irrational man-love for Tulo. I would go straight Ditka and sell the farm for him because dammit, 30/15 shortstops before they’ve even hit their prime don’t just fall from the sky.
Tulo <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
I propose Joba, Hughes, Montero, Heathcott, Culver, Romine, and bexarama's own right arm that she chopped off (I'll learn to write with my left!!!!) for Tulo plz. That okay? (Note: I am kidding.)
Sounds right to me.
/notkidding’d
Tulo is a very unique shortstop. Not only is he a great bat but he’s a good defender as well. So man-love away!
Man love: NEVER WRONG.
Phil Hughes was always the crown jewel in that 3 and by a fair margin. Joba’s stuff was tantalizing and IPK’s command was impressive, but Hughes has always had the potential for both, and he’s starting to realize it.
we have our save the big three T’s to remember them by–but I’ll agree that Granderson has been a bust so far but no one could have imagined the production they have gotten out of Gardner ( even though I had my hopes-my fav new-ish Yankee, but i digress…) Also selling high on Melky was brilliant. Do I wish Granderson was not on the team? yes i do. my ideal OF for us would be swish, BG in CF and Crawford in left.
but to the topic– if they’d take joba and some other nice pieces for haren I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Joba’s epic journey would reach a most satisfying conclusion if he fronted a winning package for Dan Haren. Joba, noesi, Nova, & D. Adams might just get it done. Az wouldnt get fleeced as it’d be getting its high ceiling ML, a couple AAA/AA starters one of which looks ready next season (Noesi), and a potential ML quality infielder.
I’d hate to see Joba go only because he is in such disarray currently. However, if we can turn Joba + stuff into Dan Haren…sign. me. up.
Rather have Lee than Haren. If getting Haren means no Lee, then no thanks.
I might be in the minority, but this team doesn’t need to add a front line starter. They need an innings eater for a few weeks. Pitch 6 innings and give up 4 runs and you’ll win a bunch of games with this team unless your name is Javier Vazquez. The postseason still looks like it’ll be CC, AJ, Andy 1/2/3 with Hughes in the bullpen. Javy on standby incase AJ gets lit up or we need a 4th starter. Why the need for a Haren? He isn’t Lee. Lee was an exceptional case.
The Yanks will need a 4th starter this postseason, you can take that to the bank.
Sure Haren isn’t Lee, but Haren is still one of the elite pitchers in the game. If we can get him on the cheap for the next several years, it could allow the Yanks to be a bit more flexible financially. Lee is probably going to be making $20M+. The monetary savings from that could go towards a number of other areas. It at least makes sense for the Yanks to kick the tires on Haren.
Ok, fine, we probably need a 4th starter this year. How many times does he go? Assuming they make the world series, minimum twice? I’m comfortable enough having Javy for that. That’s not enough of a reason to get Haren, if anyone cites it as a reason at all.
Not sure you can classify Haren as elite (not on the level of a Felix or CC or Lester but that’s an argument for another thread) but yes, he’s very good. My point was, do we need him? Yes, we’d save 7m+ by not having to sign Lee, but we also give up Joba and other prospects when you can probably have Lee (the unquestioned better pitcher) for nothing but money.
And sure, kick the tires on Haren. I’d just be very skeptical if he’s worth it.
Javy on standby incase AJ gets lit up or we need a 4th starter.
Chances are they need a 4th starter this year.
You also wouldn’t trade as much for Haren. And Pettitte’s injury changes things. Look at it this way. Say Pettitte comes back around August 20th or so (just throwing out a random day just past the middle of August). Until then you could really use a good starter rather than Mitre (who could fill a regular bullpen spot if you get a replacement). They want to skip Hughes at least once more supposedly, but I went through the rest of the schedule and don’t really see where they can skip him without pitching someone in his place, so there’s that. It cushions you in case of another injury. And while I’m against Hughes to the bullpen, it does give you the opportunity if, in mid September, he’s about to hit his innings limit to shift him to the bullpen and use him there in the playoffs.
Also, it gives you the chance to not sign Lee (I’m all for it, but we do have to realize Lee isn’t young and will probably want 5-6 years…might be fine initially but it could be a rough deal in a few years, especially if Sabathia declines as well). Or if Pettitte decides to retire, it protects you so you can sign Lee anyway (Haren’s not making much more next year than Pettitte is now). I definitely see what you’re saying though.
I wouldn’t count on AJ for anything…he is in the middle of a mental breakdown…
Joba Chamerlain = Dan Haren
Wilson Betemit = Nick Swisher
Now that’s a wee bit harsh my friend… Joba could be lights out, or light on!?
Did you mean…
Joba Chamberlain:Wilson Betemit
Dan Haren:Nick Swisher
?
nooo…
joba:haren::betemit:swisher
What exactly do the other teams have to provide as headliners? Figure Tigers could use Porcello Cards Jay & very young pitching? Phillies JA Happ?
“Ideally what we would ask for is major-league ready pitching, be it starters and/or bullpen, and prospects,” club CEO Derrick Hall said yesterday.
While the Arizona bullpen is beyond laughable, to say that you are looking for bullpen help in a trade for a top flight pitcher is complete fail.
Especially when you’re basically happy to blow up the team outside of Reynolds, Upton & Montero
Oh, I think that they would move Reynolds in a heartbeat if someone wanted to offer a premium package for him.
Upton, IPK and Montero aren’t going anywhere.
Melky Mesa for IPK. BOOM!!! That just happened.
Marc Melancon is a very good bullpen prospect. I have heard he owns many turquoise bollo ties. AZ seems like a perfect fit.
And he’s beyond white, so he won’t be questioned for his papers in AZ.
this is true. he is practically translucent.
And he went to school in AZ if I’m not mistaken. I like your thinking.
Indeed. Closed games for the Wildcats back in the day.
Doesn’t ZMac’s father work for the d-backs? Sounds like a package forming…j/k
Maybe Joba never will be the guy he was pre-Texas in 2008, but I’m uncomfortable selling low on him, especially for a guy like Dan Haren, who had home run issues even pitching in Oakland (!).
(Not to mention it wouldn’t surprise me to see Haren’s K/BB ratio fall back to 3.5 as he returns to the AL. Not that 3.5 is by any means bad, but it’s a lot different from 5.0)
Haren would not be “selling low” on Joba.
Sure it is. If they were selling high it would have been ‘Joba + less people’.
Now that Joba stinks, it’s ‘Joba + a bunch of people to sweeten the deal b/c Joba’s been ruined’.
Dan Haren has been one of the very best pitchers in baseball over the past several years and he’s signed to a team friendly deal. This would be buying low on Haren.
You just don’t get it. That’s ok.
Selling high or low refers to what’s being sold, not what’s being purchased. That’s why it’s called ‘selling high/low’ not ‘buying high/low’.
If you sell Joba when he’s at his worst, that’s called ‘selling low’, just like if someone sold their stock for a penny.
If you sell Joba when he’s kicking ass and dominant, you’re selling high, just like when you sell the same stock for $50.00.
If you sell Joba when he stinks, it’s ‘selling low’ because you have to come up with more things to sell along with him in order to get something valuable (ie Dan Haren).
That’s why it’s called ’selling high/low’ not ‘buying high/low’.
Well if one person is “selling high” isn’t the other person automatically “buying high”?
That doesn’t really count when you’re talking about getting a player as good as Haren though.
Like many others, I’d prefer having Lee on the team next year to having Haren this year. I think he’s a better pitcher and, as a lefty without a bit of a tendency towards the longball, a better fit.
However, what if the Yankees planned to trade for Haren for the rest of this year, then flip him in the offseason for prospects or a bat, similar to what the Phillies did with Lee when the signed Halladay? He’d still have plenty of value this offseason and it would allow the Yankees to sign the pitcher I think they prefer.
Bah, sorry, reply fail.
If you sell Haren when he’s at his worst, that’s called ’selling low’, just like if someone sold their stock for a penny.
If you sell Haren when he’s kicking ass and dominant, you’re selling high, just like when you sell the same stock for $50.00.
If you sell Haren when he stinks, it’s ’selling low’ because you have to take back less than you would have if he was performing at optimal levels(ie Joba Chamberlain).
If this deal could be centered around Joba the Yankees would do it and not blink twice.
The point that you seem to be refusing to get is that NOW they’d probably have to add, like, Romine and Betances to Joba to get Haren. If Joba was kicking ass, they’d only have to add guys more like Adams and Zmac.
If getting Haren means no Lee, I’d rather just wait. Lee plus the prospect package is better than Haren, even with the increased financial cost and the extra 3-4 months of having him.
Now if the Yankees had any reason to believe Andy was a goner for sure after this season, and you could Haren and Lee into Javy and Andy’s spots, go for it.
I agree. I like Haren, and will gladly take him for a non-Montero package of prospects. But if it means no Lee in the offseason then I don’t like the deal at all. Haren is a middle of the rotation guy in the AL East, not a #1 like Lee is.
nods head in agreement
I’m 100% on board this your train of thought, Steve. Haven’t we been burned enough with the NL to AL transition? Even when Haren was lights out his second halves were always much worse and home run problems, while more difficult to control in AZ won’t exactly be a non factor in YSIII. Although I’d really like to keep Joba around, the real issue for me is getting Haren when we don’t need him and costing us a chance for Lee. I still like the plan of getting some bench/DH/bullpen maybe a serviceable starter and then going Lee and a bat in the offseason. Gardner has really slown down and Granderson is scary right now and we could use a Werth/Crawford/Dunn type bat in the top half of the lineup next year when Arod/Jeter/Posada are clearly not getting any younger.
I kind of doubt that whatever + prospects you’d have to toss in would actually be worth the difference in salary between Lee and Haren.
Absolument. I want Lee
Haren is having Joba luck this year.
Is that code for ‘can’t find the strike zone and has no movement on his pitches’?
Define can’t find the strike zone. And take a look at Joba’s ability to find the strike zone in 2008, as well as strike guys out and limit HR’s. Eerily similar to this year.
Walking two batters in a row last night.
Nice, a one inning sample size.
Oh, and Joba didn’t walk two batters in a row last night.
Come on Steve, a 3-1 k/bb ratio is horrible…wait….
i say everyone except whoevers on our 25 man roster, dellin betances, brackman, romine, sanchez should be made available
oh and montero of course..
There is plenty of people I would be willing to move on the 25 man roster.
well players that the dbacks would want AND we’d be willing to give? not many
i was talking about joba/hughes mainly
You would give up Montero but not Joba?
The thing that worries me about Haren is that it’s really been a full season worth of games that he’s struggled. His problems started after the break last yr. Champ809 on Lohud came up with this info( so don’t kill me if it’s slightly off) Haren has given up 38 dingers in his last 35 starts and 10 hits per 9 innings. Also, Stark said in his chat today that scouts have told him that Haren just doesnt make as many quality pitches as he used to.
what kind of heater does haren have? from what i see hes only around 90-91mph. Is he very similar to vazquez in relying heavily on secondary pitches?
what kind of heater does haren have?
a really smelly one.
It’s not just last year after the break. You know how Pettitte and CC are generally lauded as second half pitchers? Haren poops out in the second half a bit:
http://www.baseball-reference......8;t=p#half
I remember in 2008 his falloff was a pretty big part of why the Diamondbacks ended up losing the NLW.
Haren first half 2008: 2.72 ERA, .582 OPSA, 0.955 WHIP
Haren second half 2008: 4.18 ERA, .775 OPSA, 1.373 WHIP
His K rate actually went up, as did his K/BB, so luck probably played a part, but still. And oddly enough he went 8-5 before the break and 8-3 after… so I guess you can debate my statement about 2008 and the Diamondbacks haha.
He has a career high K/9 this year, so I think Stark’s scout is just wrong. You don’t strike out more guys than ever before with substandard stuff. He also has a career high BABIP against, so he’s been unlucky. And the Arizona pen hasn’t exactly been helpful with stranding runners.
It doesn’t explain all the homers. Imagine him pitching at the new stadium. It could get ugly.
Because Chase Field is a pitcher’s dream?
Yeah, there are concerns, but I don’t think it’s a stuff issue. And he’s already pitching in a bandbox, but against lesser lineups. Haren has already had success in the AL, and I’m sure he could again, but he’s not Lee.
If we can get Haren for Joba + prospects who may not be more than spot starters, pull the trigger. I don’t think we’re going to give Joba a chance to start again, so why not send him somewhere else if we won’t maximize his value?
Lee is sick, but a deal like this would be a good ‘ol fashioned fleecing. I’d be sorry to see Lee not come to NY, but if it’s because we bring in Haren for this this speculated package, yes please.
That said, I’m pretty sure that would mean no arb offer to Javy assuming Andy re-ups, but that’s a small sacrifice relative to the gains.
A 4.60 ERA in the N.L. with no DH and a weaker 7-8-9 batting order than the A.L. tells the whole story:
DAN HAREN IS OVERPRICED GARBAGE THE YANKEES SHOULD NOT TRADE YOUNG, CHEAP, PROMISING TALENT INCLUDING JOBA CHAMBERLAIN FOR.
The Yankees should stick with Sabathia/Hughes/Vasquez/Burnett/Mitre untl Pettitte comes back then start Mitre in place of Hughes when Pettitte returns and Hughes has reached his innings cap. If the Yanks could get a starter via trade or waiver wire who could take over from Hughes, great and I’d prefer that as I think Mitre is better out of the pen than as a starter, but I am fully confident in a Sabathia/Pettitte/Vasquez/Burnett A.L.D.S. rotation (assuming Hughes is out of it and Vasquez gets the call for Game 3) despite Burnett’s struggles/inconsistency.
Sabathia/Cliff Lee signed/Pettitte re-signed/Burnett/Hughes should be the plan for the 2011 Yankees rotation. If Pettitte retires, re-signs with Houston, or signs with Texas after this season (last two moves if he wants to still play but only back home), the Yanks will cross that bridge if/when they get to it.
I generally agree with this except Haren isn’t garbage.
If Pettitte doesn’t retire but signs with a non-Yankee team I will eat my hat.
There’s as much chance of Pettitte signing with a non-Yankee team after this year as there is of Frenchy becoming an effective player on the Royals.
Let me amend that:
If Pettitte doesn’t retire but signs with a non-Yankee team I will
eat my hatfind him and punish him.Yeah, fill in your own blank there.
Please don’t yell.
Using ERA never tells the whole story.
For Haren’s career his ERA in the 2nd half is a full run higher.
Now go and check out his 1st and 2nd half splits year by year.
Copycat =P
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ent-984821
I wouldn’t mind trading for him, I just think they’re asking for too much.
GMTA, Bexy, GMTA
I’m not crazy about this one.
1- I’m not ready to give up on Joba (yes its me saying this). He is still a good young arm I think he can still figure it out.
2- If it means not getting Lee then I really don’t like it. Because basically your saying Lee, joba and prospects for Haren. Is no way in hell strong enough?
Trading for Haren won’t stop them from pursuing Cliff Lee.
There is no guarantee the Yankees would hold onto Haren this offseason.
If they sign Lee, who’ll probably have a deal before Christmas, Cashman will have very little leverage in trying to deal Haren.
Of course they will have leverage.
Dan Haren and his ability as a pitcher is the leverage.
The Yankees will always pay more for the better pitcher, especially since Lee is LH, and respond accordingly.
Acquiring Haren does not impact their intention to go after Lee.
I see your point. But if the Yankees have about 80 mil tied up in CC, Lee, Petitte, AJ, and Haren AND have no rotation spot for Phil Hughes…I imagine oppossing GM will try and use that to their advantage and give a relative low ball offer. I can’t agree with you that there would be “no impact”. There’d be an impact for sure. But perhaps not enough to be a deal breaker in regards to signing Lee.
I imagine oppossing GM will try and use that to their advantage and give a relative low ball offer.
The thing is, there would be several opposing GM’s, so that leverage would go out the window. In a vacuum what you’re saying is right, but there are probably 10+ teams that would get in line if Haren was available, so no one of them would have any leverage to lowball.
“A 4.60 ERA in the N.L. with no DH and a weaker 7-8-9 batting order than the A.L. tells the whole story:”
I second this and add in the N.L. west.
I agree with the AL East/NL West differences but let’s not act like a 4.60 ERA tells the whole story. Read the post, he’s striking out a batter per inning and rarely walks anyone. I wouldn’t do this trade, but Haren isn’t that bad either.
Agree.
This. That ERA is a product of a bad bullpen at stranding inherited runners (and Adam Dunn playing defense).
I don’t much care if they flip Joba and prospects for Haren, as long as we still attempt to sign Lee in the off-season.
Obviously the Dunn part is a joke…but he’s sure not helping him improve his ERA in any way.
Dunn’s defense is so bad that it is possible that it is hurting Haren’s ERA from thousands of miles away.
Haren… No
DH Bat… Yes
The more I think about it, the less I want Haren. Adding him basically closes the door on Lee in the offseason, and Lee is clearly the Goods. Unless Haren comes for a modest minor league package, it just doesn’t make enough sense for me.
I don’t think losing Andy for 4-6 weeks is going to be a huge loss.. we could deal without Haren. TJSC posted the schedule of starts sometime last week that Andy would have made, and its against all weak teams outside of one texas game, we won 103 games with mitre/gaudin for the entire 2nd half last year, we’ll be okay this year. i’d rather see improvement on the bench then making a splash for haren
Don’t forget Wang’s horrible starts at the beginning of the year. Mitre can’t be that bad if he tried.
AJ is worse this year though…
I’m more excited about these rumours for the sake of spicing up baseball talk for a week than the prospect of acquiring Haren. The more I look into his numbers the less appealing a trade seems when giving up trade prospects and possibly incentive to sign Lee this offseason.
You root for the right team then. It seems if a guy is available there’s an inevitable “HEARD THIS: YANKEES MIGHT TRADE FOR EVERYONE” post somewhere.
One of many reasons I love Ms. Riddering: she spells rumors with a u. :3
Is she Canadian? Does she spell colors as colours and donuts are doughnuts
I’m such an Anglophile I don’t even notice when I add u’s anymore.
The good…Haren has the experience, but so do 4 SP others in the rotation.
The bad… Haren is aging and in a bad trend (ERA, dingers, etc), Javy is about equal to him today & could be arb’d for less (1 year),leaving flexibilty for Lee, etc.
The ugly… Haren & his contract, giving up on Joba, the cost of prospects.
Bottom line, I feel Javy is a solid #4 postseason option, Phil in the pen come postseason (innings limit) & if Joba deesn’t turn it around soon he’ll have to be traded or given the chance in 2011 to be the 5th starter. Haren doesn’t have any value above our current SP options this year…let alone 2011 & beyond.
Ben do you really consider Oswald at this point in hus career to be a better pitcher than Haren?
Oswalt is outpitching him, but Haren is more valuable because of age IMO.
Lee Harvey or Patton?
Danny DeVito is not available.
i hate the idea of trading joba… too much talent.
i wish we could swing a trade for a dotel type and send joba to the minors to start. this year is there last chance because next he’ll have to go through waivers.
Hopefully having Joba as a SP hasn’t been decided against long term. I think they challenge him to regain that role for 2011 and pencil him in as the #5 guy if Javy or Andy leave.
However, this off-season will have Javy & Andy possibly resigning or Lee striking a deal so there won’t be a spot available in the rotation.
Looks like RP or a trade will happen…I’m guessing trade.
I’d definitely rather have Lee than Haren, but Haren is damn good. I certainly wouldn’t complain if the Yankees got him for Joba+. Just as long as cream-of-the-crop prospects like Montero and Romine aren’t going to Arizona, I’d be pretty happy to land Haren.
To somehow have both Haren and Lee in the rotation next April would be a dream.
So who do you kick out of town…Javy & Andy?
Well, I assume Javy will be gone. Maybe Andy retires. In dreamland, someone would take Burnett’s contract. Never gonna happen, though; hence the use of the word “dream” in my prior post. It sure would be something to have Haren and Lee, though.
“But I’m getting ahead of the situation a bit.”
This is the key line regarding the relation to Cliff Lee and Dan Haren.
Haren is an acquisition for right now in response to this team, the same way Cliff Lee was.
The Yankees have loved Cliff Lee and have been trying to get him for 2 years now and Haren will not change their plans regarding Lee if they make a trade.
Lee is their number 1 priority this offseason and they will make any corresponding moves necessary if they acquire him. He should not be factored into your feelings regarding trading for Haren.
I hope you’re right. Could the Yankees fit Haren and Lee into their budget with new contracts for Jeter, Rivera and perhaps Pettitte (if he doesn’t retire) looming in the offseason? That’d be tricky.
Honestly, (all feelings aside) if Pettitte has anything to do with that not being possible, I probably say goodbye to Andy.
I’m in agreement with ZZ. I think they are going after Lee, regardless of what happens with Haren. If you can find a way to fit them both in the payroll…that’s win.
The emergence of Brett Gardner really opened up the ability to focus on pitching, hasn’t it? There really isn’t that need to go sign the big FA left fielder now.
That’s fair. If getting Lee means parting ways with Pettitte, I’d probably do the same. Nothing against Pettitte at all, but he’s 38 and Lee is one of the elite pitchers in baseball.
I was planning on a rotation of Sabathia-Lee-Hughes-Pettitte-Burnett for next season, but all this Haren talk has really made things interesting.
Sabathia-Lee-Haren-Hughes-Burnett would be ridiculous.
Everyone knows how I feel about Andy but I think if Andy stopped us from getting Lee, I’d be really =/-y.
Pettitte+Haren+extra $$$ > Lee.
That’s a pretty good point but only if you’re spending that extra $$$ on something valuable. I know, I know, the budget, but I’m not convinced the budget isn’t quite flexible when they want it to be.
It might be, I’m just pointing out that the money you’d save by having Haren instead of Lee has to count for something too.
No it isn’t.
Not when you are the Yankees and you will always pay the extra money for the better pitcher and have winning the WS as the goal every year.
The reliability of a Sabathia-Lee 1-2 punch is immensely valuable to the Yankees. Much much than any extra money you are factoring in.
Especially considering there are not a whole lot of places you could invest that extra money and get a substantial or difference making return on your investment.
Right, that’s why we spent on that money on Lackey and Holliday this off-season and, er…
Who is Lackey better than?
And I said better pitcher, so Holliday doesn’t factor in.
Either way, the assertion clearly bears no resemblance to any sort of observable reality.
Of course it does.
Why do you think the Yankees are trying to acquire a starter right now?
They’re not trying to acquire a starter. All we know is tht they were willing to deal for Lee, a special case, and that they may be interested in Haren, another guy who’s a very good pitcher, who also happens to be signed to a very team friendly deal. This also cuts against your “they’ll spend whatever” theory, since neither Lee nor Haren are that expensive right now.
Lee was not simply a special case and neither is Haren.
They are both upgrades to our rotation this year and that is why Cashman is targeting them.
In this case spending the extra money for upgrade in the rotation comes in prospects.
The Yankees don’t deal in marginal money or put a lot of emphasis on this pitcher costs X number of dollars more but is worth less according to some Fangraphs definition of value.
The value on Fangraphs and the like is very different from the value the Yankees value players at, because of the money they make from deep playoff runs and WS victories.
Any extra money between Haren and Lee would not make any substantial impact on this team as constructed, but it will have a great opportunity cost to the Yankees in regard to their goal of winning the WS and future free agent pitchers available in the next few years.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Gives you a more than competent fill in for Pettitte, then when he comes back you can shift Hughes to pen, when he’ll be up against his limit. You’ve also go Javy’s replacement.
If Andy comes back next year, then so be it; I’d rather have Haren at his price for the next three years than Lee at close to $20M for the next five.
For Joba + minor leaguers (not including Montero or Romine)? Absolute deal.
Obviously, the Yankees don’t view Joba as a starter – otherwise, he’d be in AAA, starting. If the Yankees view him as a reliever, trading him for Haren makes absolute sense.
Montero = off limits, though.
If the Yankees owned Haren I would want a lot more than Joba and some minor leaguers. I really don’t think that gets it done. I would ask for Gardner, maybe Robertson too. Someone I could put on the major league roster right away.
:shrug: I doubt the Yankees trade any integral pieces like Gardner or Robertson.
Yeah, Montero are Hughes are off limits. Take anyone else.
Agreed, if the Yankees think Joba is destined for the pen, and if he could be the headliner of this package, do it in a heartbeat and let everything else shake out later.
You get what you pay for. Haren is nice and all, but Lee is an elite pitcher. For me, Haren would be like adding a 2nd Vasquez, whereas Lee would be like adding a 2nd CC. I’d much prefer the elite talent of Lee, even at that higher cost.
This
It’s not just the money though, it’s the fact that you’d have to commit to the guy into his late 30′s for that much money.
Cliff Lee’s contract in his age 35 season will be better than A.J.’s contract this year.
CC-Lee-Hughes-Pettitte-Burnett. There wouldn’t even be a conversation about who has the best rotation in the majors.
(and check back with me in 2016)
What about at 36 and 37?
You hit the nail right on the head. Maybe a little better than Javy
but very close.
I’m with you. Haren’s contract will be much friendlier than Lee’s, and you can use the difference in salary to add a DH or a couple of solid bench players as well. If the price is Joba + expendable prices, I’ll happily drive everyone to the airport.
May someone please explain to me why they couldn’t stand to see Joba’s talent leave the organization if said talent is only going to stay in the bullpen?
Those who thought he was the replacement for Mo.
I not being one of them though…I was on the “SWB Starting Pitcher (that would only be brought up prior to break with an injury) ’til the stretch” bandwagon to build his innings up for 2011.
/waterunderthebridge’d
I wonder if the Dbacks can throw another player in a potential deal. Like a Bench/DH type player.
Laroche would be nice.
LaRoche is way too good to be a throw-in type guy.
Yeah, probably. He’s the only available DH type I could think of on their roster, though.
Or maybe even a BP arm (even though I know their BP is horrendous).
Buy low on Qualls. Batted ball profile is the same as the last few years, few more walks but more strikeouts, .445 BABIP.
Trading for another high strikeout pitcher like Haren would be further proof that the Yankees don’t care about defense.
/Rob Neyer’d
Aj Burnett plus joba for haren!!!
I’m sure Arizona would jump all over that.
NO WAY!!!!!! NO INTEREST!!!!!!!! Why trade for 2nd best when Cliff Lee has already called CC to ask about real estate? Wait for Lee as NYY can’t have BOTH!
They definitely could if Pettitte retires. If he doesn’t, then they probably wouldn’t, although it’s still not IMPOSSIBLE. Haren’s not making all that much. They could always hold onto Haren as insurance and if they sign Lee, trade him.
2010: 3.92 FIP, .350 BABIP
Career: 3.69 FIP, .304 BABIP
Yea, that era = me not giving a shit. For a package centered around Joba? The guy that the front office has relegated to a disposable middle relief job!? Is this even a debate?
If the package is centered around Joba you have to make the trade. If you still want Lee, sign him and then trade one of your surplus starters.
We have 5 top flight starters that will probably be healthy and rested come October. Three of them are all stars, the other 2 are more than competent. We have a great shot at getting Cliff Lee next year.
Shouldn’t this be enough???
AJ sucks……..
Diamondbacks demands from Yankees: Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Jesus Montero, and Austin Romine
Diamondbacks demands from everyone else: Okay bullpen arm, some extra baseballs
Heh.
2011 Rotation
CC
CLIFF LEE
DAN HAREN
AJ BURNETT
PHIL HUGHES
Tempting. Very tempting, but I’d resist. I agree with those who think that leading a package for Dan Haren is selling low on Joba Chamberlain. Remove him, Montero, and Romine from the possibilities, and then we’re talking. If that becomes crazy talk, you move on and don’t make the deal. It’s just not a necessity. Figure out how to win with the many pieces you’ve got.
I dunno, I don’t put Joba anywhere near Montero or Romine at this point. I do understand what you’re saying, but I don’t really think it is selling low on him right now, unless you have to include multiple top prospects too.
Look at it this way. If the Yankees have given up on Joba as a starter (and let’s face it, it certainly looks that way regardless of what they say), then we’re talking about a bullpen arm that is inconsistent. Mo’s probably going to be here at least another 2 years, so you’re talking about a guy who won’t even be the closer before 2013 (if even then), and with his current inconsistency, I really don’t know if I’d even want him as a closer.
I just think his perceived value is higher than his actual value, the way things are now. I just don’t see him starting for the Yankees. Even take Haren out of the equation…the Yankees have three starters signed for next year, will want to resign Pettitte, and will probably sign another (Lee, possibly, or maybe someone else). That doesn’t leave a spot for him, and we’re reaching a point that I’m not even sure if Joba CAN get sent down to work on it in the minors. Even if he reaches his potential, you’re talking about a good setup man.
Well said.
Sox will probably get him for Michael Bowden, the right handed Casey Fossum.
We’d have control over Haren for a few years and exchange Pettitte for Lee (Pettitte would retire). Might as well trade Chamberlain while he has trade value
Yankees can this deal done for Chamberlain, Melancon and a “B” level prsopect.
No way I move Joba for Haren, who has begun to slide. If I can get him for two, perhaps three (if I get back a serviceable bullpen arm) of the following, I might do deal: Noesi, Nova, Phelps, Warren, Stoneburner. Or Brackman plus one of the above. Remember, this is still basically a salary dump. No need to overpay.
It’s not a salary dump. A salary dump is having to trade guys because they are overpaid or the team is broke.
Haren is underpaid. And as far as i know, the team is not broke.
Rosenthal and Bob Klapisch say the Yankees are the frontrunners right now. Klapisch seems to imply it’s waiting on Cashman deciding whether or not to pull the trigger.
Also keep in mind, in terms of “selling low on Joba” (if he would even be included in any deal, which isn’t a sure thing); it would be selling low on him in terms of “The Yankees could have gotten a lot more two years ago for him”. But Joba may NEVER be worth what he once was, and the more time he stays in the bullpen, the less chance someone trades for him hoping to make him a starter again, and if he stays inconsistent, any value he has will disappear.
Those that think Chamberlain is the (a) next great starter, or (b)the “heir apparent” to Mo are drinking the Yankee Front Office
Kool-Aid.
Although relatively young at 24 (he’ll be 25 in September), Joba’s ERA and WHIP have climbed steadly since his first amazing year as Setup man in 2007. Regression at a time when he should be refining his skills is not a good sign. His body type and mechanics also scream injury risk.
Unload him…while you can get something for him!
If we were sure that Pettitte were done after this year, would you do it? I am sensing that the worry here is that we might not have room in the rotation and not the money
Cliff Lee would have been the ultimate acquisition..a reliable innings eater and big game pitcher. I think the Yankees were anxious to pull the trigger for him this year because there’s a strong possiblity that the Rangers new ownership (Cuban is a real possiblity) will sign him to a long term deal.
Other than Lee who are the other top flight starters available in the offseason? None. So Haren if we decided to trade him in the offseason will have tremendous value. Not on an over-priced deal, signed for a few more seasons at a reasonable rate, we could possibly get some great offers for him.
Count me among those who believe Joba — still just 24 — is far less likely to be in decline than Haren. Joba is still hitting 97-98 at times. His problem seems to be that his slider has flattened. That could well be the result of some lingering injury that has required him to modify his delivery. Otherwise, why does one of the best sliders in baseball (as it was once ranked) devolve into a garbage pitch. My guess is Joba has changed his arm angle or leg extension to protect against some pain.
Meanwhile, for all his problems he’s still getting the job done 70-75% of the time. Who’s going to replace him in the eighth inning? Hughes? Well, fine. But then you’ve lost him to the rotation. Cash does not have the best record trading for pitching. Invariably, teams trade pitchers because they know something you don’t. Again, no Joba, no Montero, no Romine, Banuelos or Betances. Yanks have tons of other pitching talent they could make available.