Dec
12

Cashman: Yanks will not increase offer to Lee

By

Brian Cashman told George King that the Yankees will not increase their offer to free agent lefty Cliff Lee. Although Cashman indicated that he has spoken to agent Darek Braunecker since the winter meetings, he simply said “no” when asked if he’d increase his offer in terms of dollars and/or years. First of all, Cashman’s not going to state publicly that he’s willing to up the offer, keep that in mind. Secondly, you can’t blame the Yanks GM here, they already offered Lee a menu of huge dollar deals that are more than fair. The ball is in Lee’s court now, everyone’s made their best offer. Time to decide, Cliff.

Categories : Asides, Hot Stove League

198 Comments»

  1. LawStudent says:

    The offers are more than fair. If the “mystery team” wants to offer 8 years, let them have him. I highly doubt anyone will outbid the Yankees on Lee. It’s just between the bigger buck$ or the “comfort” of Texas for Lee now.

    • Hughesus Christo says:

      There must be hookers and blow involved to get anyone that comfortable in 3 months.

    • ramez hanna says:

      i dont understand why all this fuss about one player?
      he is only 1 of 5 starting pitchers and 1 of 40 playing in the team
      it is not a sure thing the games he plays in he wins it
      he has 12 wins and 9 losses for texas and mariners
      he lost all his starts in the ws
      in 2 years he could be totally uneffective if he suffers somthing in his elbow or shoulder
      and the team who signed him will be stuck for 5 years to horrible contract.for all the 100 mil contracts nothing panned out except (albert) and to a lesser extent (a rod) (none of them are pitchers)
      finally i hope texas gets him and we get 2 farm land cheap pitchers who can pitch healthy for the 6 years for almost nothing.
      offense and power hitters are the more sure thing in free agency

  2. Legend says:

    Let the hillbilly stay in texas to hunt deer and pitch for Nolan Ryan. We were a playoff team without him in 2010 and will also be one in 2011. lets not lock up our payroll for 7 or 8 years on this bad back greedy redneck.

  3. mikebk says:

    this is absolutely the right move since that appears to be the main motivation for the stalling of the decision at this point.

  4. chriskeo says:

    This makes me feel better actually. As if Lee decided he wants to sign with the Yankees, and this is his agent trying to get a few extra bucks.

    • Dr. O says:

      I agree, but I can also see them using a “Yankees up their offer” story to guilt Texas into giving in on a few million more. “Well gee Nolan, Cliff is already willing to take less to stay with you. Its just hard to turn down THIS kind of money from New York.”

  5. ultimate913 says:

    It’s a good thing the Knicks are distracting me from this Lee nonsense. But hurry up and pick, Lee.

  6. We shouldn’t accept this story at face value. Do you think the Yanks’ GM is going to go on record to say that they’re willing to up their offer? That’s an awful negotiating strategy.

  7. Cecala says:

    I honestly have a feeling that the Rangers contract is not even close to the Yankees. We will probably overpay for Lee about 30m and a year.

  8. Dr. O says:

    Good lord its starting to look like we’ll all be talking about “that time we almost traded for Lee until Seattle used us for leverage”. I have this feeling Braunecker is going to end up like a bullheaded GM in way over his his head trying to deal a player for value and ends up taking a lesser deal to stick it to the team he was trying to get to sweeten their offer but ended up ticking them off. What’s the guess in how much guaranteed money Lee will end up leaving on the table to stay in Texas? 20, 30, 40 million? Also what year do they fall back into the AL West cellar again despite having a talented team? Next season?

  9. Gonzo says:

    When Kruk said Braunecker was silly and needed to be fired, people should have known Braunecker was a genious and needed a raise. Darek’s bold moves look like they might pay off.

  10. Slappy White says:

    I dont think the Yanks should increase the offer because I think they would just be bidding against themselves at this point. I do think one of the major mistakes in this whole deal is that we painted ourselves as desperate to get him to start with.
    Also, there is no “mystery team”. What team would pursue one of the best pitchers in baseball and not want their fans to know it

  11. Adam B says:

    we should’ve put a deadline on the 7 year

  12. Teh Comp Pick says:

    Will this nonsense ever end? I almost hope Cashman calls them and puts a time limit on the offers. Says we’ve tried really hard to accomodate all your wishes, we believe we’ve offered the most lucrative contracts to you, and we can’t continue to let the magnitude of these negotations hold our operations hostage.

    I fear Martin, and Randy Choate are slipping away.

    • Kiersten says:

      Cliff Lee >>>>>>>> Martin + Choate

      • Teh Comp Pick says:

        This I know. Brauneker’s moves may be come standard operating procedure now though when dealing with Cashman. I’m not saying I know what I would have done better, but it seems like Cash-$ is getting owned in this.

        • Kiersten says:

          What more can he do? He made his offers, now he’s just gotta wait. Brauneker knows how desperate the Yankees are for Lee, there’s nothing Cashman can do about it.

        • Mike Axisa says:

          I doubt that. Cliff Lee is a rather rare and unique free agent.

        • Not Tank the Frank says:

          There’s more than one team bidding on Lee. He’s playing the Rangers just as much as the Yankees. If you’ve actually follwed what’s going on, the Rangers got caught in a bit of an amatuer move asking Lee’s agent what it would take to sign him. He came out and publicly humiliated them by saying that’s not the way it works.

          That showed the difference between the Yankees and other teams. This isn’t Cash’s first rodeo. He knows what he’s doing.

    • The nonsense of fans impatiently refreshing browsers and checking Twitter should not trump the Yanks’ sitting patiently and waiting for Lee to decide. Just because you want a decision quickly doesn’t mean the Yanks aren’t content to let this play out for a day or two longer. They haven’t missed out on anything yet.

      • Eric Young says:

        The nonsense of fans impatiently refreshing browsers and checking Twitter…”

        Ouch.

      • Teh Comp Pick says:

        You and the above commentors all make valid points, pretty much all of which I agree with. That being said most or all of us think a seven year contract is going to be an albatross at some point too, hopefully not till its over halfway complete. I don’t think putting just a little bit of pressure on Lee and his agent at this late stage in the negotiation is going to make them say “screw the Yanks”. I’d be more inclined to believe it would have them say “If we did want to take their money anyway, let’s do so while its still there”, and if Cash is just being used as a chip for the Texas bidding, than yea, I’d like to see him get some smaller things done.

      • Kiersten says:

        They haven’t missed out on anything yet.

        But according to Stark, they were losers at the Winter Meetings !!!.

      • Jimmy McNulty says:

        BUT BUT BUT, BUT WHAT ABOUT CARL CRAWFORD!!?!?!?!??!!?!?!??!?!?!?

    • anthony deutsch says:

      You are right on. It is time to end this bullshit. There seems to be collusion among a few teams to cause enough diversion with the Yanks to dry up the market, which is what has happened. Cashman fell for it hook, line and sinker. Yanks can’t trade for anybody because he can’t multi task and nobody thinks too much of our prospects. Cashman is left to go dumpster diving to fill our roster now. With his lack of attention and foresight he has put us in a situation where there is hardly no way out. We are looking like the Mets this year. End this bullshit NOW with Lee. Does Lee and his wife have to post it in times square that the don’t want to come to NY? Give his agent a deadline of the end of todays bussiness day or have HANK pull it , just like he did with Santana. We are being pushed around because George is gone and Hal is not intimadating. Get Hank involved, we also need to fire Cashhman and replace him with a new GM outside the organization with no prior ties to yankee past or lore. watch what happens to yankee attendance and merchandise money if they field a shitty teams this year. We the fans have to be heard on this shit before all is lost and our team is ruined. It all started to go wrong when we wasted two months chasing asshole Jeter who is washed up anyway while everyone else was planning their own stragey. Trade the farm, gardner, swish, whatever it takes to fix this ill-fated mess.

  13. Dr. O says:

    I’ll feel a ton better about The Yankees’ chances when Texas issues their own “we will not increase our offer” statement. From the get go the perception has been if he stayed in Texas it would be for less than what New York offered. I admire his agent’s ability to draw out this much given that circumstance, but I’m starting to worry that The Yankees are once more being used to price gauge a team that they’ve already decided on.

    • bexarama says:

      If Texas wants to offer as much or more than what the Yankees are offering, and he chooses them, have fun with that contract Rangers.

      • Kiersten says:

        Exactly.

        Blah blah blah the Yankees are bad for baseball blah blah. You know what’s bad for baseball? If the Rangers sign Lee to a $160MM contract and then can’t afford any other FAs or to resign their young players for the next seven years. Thus leading to another “small market” (I don’t buy that DFW is a small market) team to fall out of contention. THAT’S bad for baseball.

        • Slappy White says:

          Agreed…..DFW is a huge market, and why is it that “Payroll” is always brought up when Yankees make moves but Boston has shelled out an ass load this off season and I havent heard it once ?

        • Jimmy McNulty says:

          If they keep Cliff Lee, Nolan might be able to do for Dallas baseball what Cuban did for Dallas basketball. And they may be able to keep Wilson, Andrus, and a few of their other good players.

  14. Not Tank the Frank says:

    Love Sherman’s take on this. I agree with him.

    http://twitter.com/Joelsherman.....2265413632

  15. Legend says:

    We really need to start grooming our own Pitchers and stop relying on big money free agent pitchers tieing up our payroll. We need some payroll flexibility. We shoul have left Joba in the rotation last season and without sighning Lee we can correct that error once and for all. I don’t mind a srating oration of CC, Hughes, Joba, Burnett and Nova. if Pettite signs Nova goes to the pen. We have 8-10 solid minor league starts that will be ready between now and the end of the 2012 season. We can get by without signing or trading for anyone. Save our money to extend Swisher and Cano.

    • LawStudent says:

      I wish Joba was a starter too, but with 2 holes in the rotation there’s nary a thought of making him a SP. It’s most likely never going to happen now =\

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        Yea his name is not even being brought up as an option for the rotation. Congrats Yankees you have an inconsistent middle reliever on your hands

    • Shaun says:

      Brackman is at least a mid-season call-up, Betances is a yr away, and Banuelos is at least two years away. Joba doesn’t deserve a chance until he can prove to be a good reliever again so don’t waste the effort dreaming that. This is why they need either Andy and/or Cliff to (re)join the team.

      • Joba doesn’t deserve a chance until he can prove to be a good reliever again so don’t waste the effort dreaming that.

        First, that’s absurd. Being a reliever and being a starter are mutually exclusive. Second, 77 K in 71.2 IP, a 3.50 K/BB rate and allowing less than 1 HR per 9 IP isn’t proving he’s a good reliever?

        • Jimmy McNulty says:

          Hell, if anything Joba’s “failure” as a reliever suggests that he should be a starter. Good peripherals, poor RA. Some guys just need more than an inning to get their shit together. e.g. Ryan Dempster.

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            “Joba’s “failure” as a reliever suggests that he should be a starter.”

            Too bad the Yankees don’t feel the same way.

        • Eric Young says:

          Being a reliever and being a starter are mutually exclusive.
          An awful lot of pitchers in the 60′s earned their chops coming out of the pen. Carlton, Gibson, Jenkins, Messersmith, Koosman all spent a full season in the pen, sometimes more. Tiant spent 4 of his first 9 years primarily or significantly in the pen.

          (If I’m coming across as old, then “get off my lawn!”)

        • Shaun says:

          Phil Hughes, good reliever-> becoming a good starter
          CJ Wilson, good reliever-> good starter
          David Price good reliever->great starter
          Pedro fucking Martinez great reliever -> one of the greatest starters.

          I can keep going but their isn’t enough time in the day

          • FIPster Doofus says:

            Wainwright also started as a reliever.

          • Jimmy McNulty says:

            It’s not the move to the bullpen that bugged me, it was the move to the bullpen after like 70 or so innings of starting in the minors. If they would have given them a full year in the minors starting, then another half season in the minors starting I would have been fine with bringing him up in the bullpen.

          • Eric Young says:

            Pedro fucking Martinez had over 60 appearances and over 100 innings. Why the f*@k don’t clubs still do this with their young starters? Hello, Washington Nationals?

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            and how many of those pitchers were used the same way Joba was in the 2009 season?

    • Had the Yanks allowed Joba to progress, I keep thinking this might have turned out differently.

      If any of the three B’s are to stick as Major Leaguers, they’re still at least another year away. Look around baseball though, and you can see how tough it is to build up your own rotation. The Rays are the exception, not the norm, and even then, they had to trade to acquire Garza.

    • Not Tank the Frank says:

      A team like the Yankees, that hopes to compete for a CHAMPIONSHIP every season, cannot operate like that. The team simply can’t function with more than one, possibly two, rotation spots getting their lumps in at the big league level and expect to compete. Top flight prospects (Hughes, Joba, and to a lesser extent IPK) are the only exception. Pitchers who blow by the minor leagues get a shot, but a quick one. And every now and again, a pitcher might get called up to the bigs, pitch extremely well and never look back. But that’s it. Other teams with lesser expectations can afford to take the time necessary to develop the majority of their home-grown pitching.

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        Ok so here’s the solution don’t develop from within. Stop the bs about getting younger and using prospects from the farm. The goal is to win every season so you can’t expect young talent to hit the ground running when they come up because young players need time to grow. If you can’t stomach growing pains then do what you did during the 2000s just neglect the farm.

    • Kiersten says:

      I don’t mind a srating oration of CC, Hughes, Joba, Burnett and Nova.

      I do.

      • FIPster Doofus says:

        That is definitely not a palatable srating oration.

      • Jimmy McNulty says:

        <3

      • TJ says:

        I think that rotation would work just fine. Pitching is overestimated. Everyone thought the Phillies would breeze through the NL with Halladay. The Giants didn’t have a complete set of 5 aces and that worked out for them just fine. I say take the above 5 and maybe add Pettitte and that workd just fine. Work on the pen.

        • Kiersten says:

          Just fine? First of all, just fine doesn’t cut it in the AL East. Second, this is your “just fine” rotation:

          CC – ace, fine.
          Hughes – young guy coming off his first full year starting in the majors, highly questionable how his sophomore stint will be.
          Joba – hasn’t started since 2009 and was an average starter at best that year (not to mention Joba’s never going to be a starter for the Yankees, but this is hypothetical)
          Burnett – extremely shaky, inconsistent, unreliable, coming off the worst season of his career.
          Nova – has made 5? not very good starts in the majors.

          Please explain to me how this srating oration is “just fine.”

          • TJ says:

            We also still have Mitre for a fifth and there are some cheap high risk potentially high reward free agents. Its not PS3, you can win with descent pitching.

          • Legend says:

            Kiersten we agree on only one of your points.
            CC is an ace.
            You can question any second year player for sure. Noone knows what Hughes will do but watching him pitch and seeing how dominant he is at times coupled with a real pitching coach instead of one with “personal Problems” i am sure he will be just fine. I will take CC and Hughes anyday over Lester and Buchholtz or over Lee and Colby Lewis as our # 1 and # 2.
            The rest of my propsed rotation is as best shaky but once again with a real pitching coch you can bet your bottom dollar AJ bounces back to 2009 form. He was fine in the beginning of 2010 till the previous coach went to rehab.
            As for our # 4 and 5 I also realize Joba will be in the pen till we trade him away and he becomes the dominant starter he should have been with us. I totally picture him winning 15 games a year in Milwaukee and us trying to buy him back in 2014 for 20 mil a year. I think if we started him last season he would have been solid this year and for years to come. I don’t want us to make the same mistake with Nova. You said he had 5 poor starts. I actually saw 5 decent starts the first 4 innings and becuse of pitch selection him blwoing up in the fifth inning. This won’t happen under Rothchild.We cant make the same mistake with Nova andthe other kids that we did with Joba or we will be paying 15 mil a year for mark Buehrle next season.

  16. mike c says:

    hypothetically, if there’s an issue as simple as making it 24MM instead of 23 over 7 years then I doubt that would be an issue that keeps the yankees deal from happening

  17. Dr. O says:

    I disagree now. Cashman should have absolutely upped his offer, .45 cents. Lets ebay this thing.

    • Eric Young says:

      Unlike eBay, Braunecker doesn’t have to have a time limit.

      I’m sure Cashman would have approached this differently had he known how severely he was going to be played. Hopefully, the experience he gains from this benefits us in the future.

  18. LarryM.,Fl. says:

    Legend: I like the idea of developing from within the org. but the Yankees are a team of now. yes, they’ll allow the handpicked rookie (Cano, Hughes) occassionaly make it on the big team but the fan base and payroll have expanded with the yearly expectation of being in the winners circle at years end. The beast must be satisfied and the owners and management know this.

    As far as Lee, yeah he’s a country boy but smart as a fox and has what us City folks want (pitching)! If he wants more let Texas have him and worry everytime he throws a pitch. They can’t bury him in the rotation like we can in years to come.

    • whozat says:

      Cano was not a handpicked rookie. He was a better option than Womack.

      Also, Gardner? Robertson?

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      “The beast must be satisfied and the owners and management know this.”

      Well then they should just be a now team and forget about developing from within. Developing takes some sacrifice if they can’t do that then….

  19. Ken says:

    We have won 27 WS Championships w/out Lee. With him or without him the Yanks will be in the mix for #28 in 2011. Cashman should give a time limit and then move on if Lee turns down the offer so we can focus attention in a different direction.

    • CP says:

      What’s the point of a time limit. If he takes a week or two to decide, what difference does it make?

      • Mike Axisa says:

        It’s called “impatient fans.” I want an answer like everyone else, but I understand that Spring Training is two months away.

      • LawStudent says:

        It makes a difference to our sanity! Think of the fans, Cliff, think of the fans!

        Also it sort of affects our baseball ops. If we don’t get Lee we need to move on to Plan B, C,etc.

        I mean, I’m not all the impatient myself, but it makes a small difference.

      • TJ says:

        It matters because the club can’t do anything until they have an answer. While we sit and wait for Lee to decide how much he would like to be overpaid other teams are working too. It’s not just impatience. Pettitte may also be attached to this as well. So if he decides not to come it does effect the club, not just fans who want an answer quick.

  20. TJ says:

    It;s getting to be an old story now. The more it goes on the more I say withdraw the offer and get someone else in a trade. It already feels like too much for too long. At this point I am more concerned about Pettitte.

    • The Yanks should withdraw the offer because you’re impatient. That’s brilliant.

    • theyankeewarrior says:

      The other moves they are making are minor. All those acquisitions combined will not improve the club the way that Cliff lee will. They know they are getting an answer by tomorrow. One more day will not effect the rest of their plans.

      I’m sure they’ve made the Martin/LOOGY market well aware of their process/budget being delayed by Lee’s decision.

  21. Sal says:

    Lee and his agent stalling and trying to get more money from the Yankees. Its a good sign. I think we are getting him now.

  22. jeff says:

    Lee Lost world series to Yankees and Giants … 0-2 vs sf

  23. TJ says:

    It’s over………Lee picked the ANGELS!

    http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

  24. Monteroisdinero says:

    I look forward to our $25M pitcher/$450K catcher battery. Lee to Jesus!

    In the event Lee stays in Texas and Andy retires, that’s alot of cash left in Cash’s pocket. Starting pitcher of course but what about spending money on Soriano to take over the 8th until Mariano retires and then take over the 9th? The rest of the pen can pitch 6 and 7 and we only need our 3,4,5 guys to go 5 innings!

  25. Zooboy says:

    Remember the Alamo!

  26. Adam says:

    I’m glad Cashman is sticking to his guns and not panicking and upping the offer, as it stands it is a very generous offer (I think too generous) and if he’d rather take a little less to stay in Texas, hey go for it pal, but I think that’s a big mistake for the Rangers. Sure, they’re getting the ace they need for the short term, but he’s going to hamstring their ability to make moves so much I don’t see it working out in the long run for them. As for us, we’ll hurt if the deals go bad, but it wouldn’t take a quarter of our payroll like it would be for them and would could withstand a bad deal.

  27. OXXBOW says:

    I still say 7 / 175 gets it done.

    • Jimmy McNulty says:

      And I say that if Rosie Jones wants to marry me that I’d throw my life and all my cares away and follow her anywhere.

  28. Jimmy McNulty says:

    I have a feeling we won’t know until around midnight EST time tonight.

  29. FIPster Doofus says:

    http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman

    “strong signs there’s a 3rd team still involved with cliff lee. but the conventional wisdom remains #yankees or #rangers”

    • Jimmy McNulty says:

      The Red Sox are going to fuck the Yankees for the next decade on this one!

      Although I am slightly worried about this happening.

      • mbonzo says:

        Red Sox tried to mess with the Yankees by bringing it to 7 years….
        Angels tried to mess with the Rangers by bringing it to 7 years….

        This isn’t a scooby doo mystery, pretty obvious whats going on.

    • TJ says:

      That would be the Angels. They have money to spend clearly and love pitching. I could see them offering something crazy for Lee.

  30. OXXBOW says:

    They won’t announce until Monday, earliest.

    • Jimmy McNulty says:

      There should be something by late tonight. By this time tomorrow I’m almost positive that we’ll know where Cliff Lee will end up.

  31. OXXBOW says:

    If there is an 8th year it will be an option for far lower dollars than the average of the first seven years.

    • matt says:

      Going to 8 just doesn’t make sense for anybody; you’re right, an 8th guaranteed year is without a doubt going to lower the AAV of the package. Maybe, maybe, maybe, you include an extremely difficult to achieve vesting option for an 8th year (I’m talking along the lines of something that vests contingent on Lee’s throwing, say 1500 IP over the first 7, something that comes very very close to brushing up against the limits of “reasonable” but doesn’t quite go into super crazy territory), but if there is indeed a vesting option it’ll be at the same AAV as the first seven, he doesn’t need or want the 8th year badly enough to lower the AAV of the life of the deal. He’d be much better protected beyond year 7 by simply asking for and receiving the same opt-out as CC has.

  32. TJ says:

    http://twitter.com/outsicktoday

    Heres a link that says the Angels will get Lee

  33. Legend says:

    I think we should up the offer to 275mil for 10 years and throw in some deer skin rugs.

  34. rek4gehrig says:

    Increase the offer? Lee’s agent must be smoking something real strong

  35. mbonzo says:

    First Lebron/Cliff Lee comment I laughed at.
    http://twitter.com/eloquentgla.....7336888320

  36. matt says:

    Everyone should be so lucky as to be represented by Darek Braunecker – his handling of this process has been a textbook example of how to maximize leverage and discretion while negotiating, not to mention that he’s just gone about his business, at least in public, with understatement and class. Dude’s so high that he’s almost certainly going to get Lee a virtual replica of the CC package, with maybe a couple tweaks here and there. Please, give me some of what he’s smoking. Boras is also a tremendous, tremendous agent, but of course he’s out there saying Lee should be asking for 9-10 years; and if Boras had Lee, I bet that might have been a floated ask. Boras is just crazy enough – he’s also, outside of Marvin Miller, probably the most effective representative of his constituency as the modern game has ever known. Two vastly different styles, but ultimately two guys doing tremendous work for their clients.

    • mbonzo says:

      Yup, can’t blame him one bit for all this hoopla. He’s gonna make his client very rich and get him more money than I thought he could. He’s carried this out contrasting Casey Close who really had to rush negotiations to prevent Jeter’s image from being destroyed.

      • matt says:

        You ask me, Casey Close is 100% amateur hour. I can’t recall a single action he took during this process that helped Jetes get more dollars. For Jeter to actually be sitting at a press conference the purpose of which is to announce his signing of a contract that, even without the option is probably at least three times the total value he could have gotten elsewhere and at least one extra guaranteed year; a contract I might add that also allows the Captain to remain the Captain and stay with the club he allegedly cherishes so much and actually have the word “angry” come out of his mouth? Say what you will, I’m not doing a full blown comparison – no way does Arod ever dream of going anywhere near “angry” or any synonym thereof if faced with that same situation. I love Jetes as a historically great baseball player, as a guy who I know isn’t afraid and damn well wants to be in the lineup every single day and as a guy who’s still at least a moderately above league average shortstop (and probably considerably better, I do think you’ll see his offense revert slightly upwards back toward his norms) – but as some kind of class act, an embodiment of all that a baseball player should be, and even as the captain of the team, he lost me years ago, when a moronic Esquire quote was more important than doing everything he possibly could to increase Arod’s comfort level in New York. Yeah, Arod was three years too late in finally losing his Jeter fetish, but the fact is, everyone knew it existed and the captain was just pure ice. Not saying I need the captain to be fiery, not at all, but he does have to lead and Jeter didn’t do much leading between ’04-’07. In my mind anyway, Jorgie is the real “captai” of the team, with Mo certainly having honorary status to to the extent a relief pitcher can have it. And I don’t think it’s coincidence (though absolutely a minor factor on the whole)that the Yanks started winning playoff series again in the year when Jeter pretty clearly no longer lorded over that clubhouse.

        Wow, sorry for this rant, which isn’t at all directed at anything you wrote, I just react harshly to guys who forget to count their blessings and to learn that Derek Jeter is actually legitimately angry at the Yankees right now – despite it being his agent’s moronic comments about the Yanks’ “baffling stance” and allowing those 5/124 kind of numbers to be leaked, even if it didn’t come from him (for all the talk about the Yanks taking this thing into the gutter, recall Cashman started the process by quite clearly referencing “legacy negotiations” and the special nature of such)- makes it damn near impossible for me to respect Jeter the man even a little bit, which is kind of sad. Thank Mo for Mo I guess.

        • bexarama says:

          The rest of this is excellent but this…

          And I don’t think it’s coincidence (though absolutely a minor factor on the whole) that the Yanks started winning playoff series again in the year when Jeter pretty clearly no longer lorded over that clubhouse.

          … is not. Who did, if not Derek? It’s irrelevant, and acting like the 2002-2008 teams were some sort of miserable failure just because they didn’t win the WS is kinda silly IMO. They won plenty of games in the regular season… did they just forget how to be ~united as a team~ in the postseason?

          It’s silly to blame Derek’s leadership in the clubhouse for the failures of the 2004-2007 postseasons. Unless you are willing to give him appropriate credit for those teams’ very good regular seasons, too.

          • matt says:

            I’ll actually concede that came out awfully silly sounding and it goes without saying that Jeter’s leadership abilities had virtually nothing to do with the club’s falling short of the ultimate objective from ’01-08, though I’d argue the converse just as strongly, that his leadership abilities has virtually no explanatory effect in respect of the five clubs that have won.

            Really I take issue with Jeter as the captain solely in regards to his treatment of Al. I had written this endlessly tangential post re: Jeter and Al, the perceptions of them both vis-a-vis the reality of what they’ve done on the field, etc., but then realized this isn’t an open thread. I can get a little over the top when it comes to Jeter/Alex.

            I think that Al clearly showed up in NY with some serious issues that he needed to work out on his own and some of them very much related to a Jeter-inferiority complex and a more generalized insecurity; the later isn’t something Jetes can help, dude’s not a shrink, but the best leaders lead each of the individuals under their purview and are sensitive to the individual needs of each guy. I mean, Mariano Rivera doesn’t need Derek Jeter to make a public statement regarding the unconscionable booing of Mo that happened certainly more than once early in ’05, whereas maybe Jason Giambi needed Jeter’s imprimatur to really fully capitalize on his second chance with the club and Jeter was more than happy to do that in that situation because, to quote the Captain
            “[Giambi] is a great guy”. And if ever there was a player with the kinds of insecurities that might have been better off for having been overtly and publicly embraced by his teammates, it’s Al, or at least it was for a long time.

            And Jetes basically came close to actively going out of his way NOT to embrace – really the only guy who ever did prior to ’09 was Sheff, something along the lines in ’05 that “No one’s throwing at Al in Fenway, I won’t allow it, this club won’t allow it” – if my memory serves, Andy was always generally supportive, and I’d expect nothing less from him ever, as were Mo and Mussina, there’s a funny Moose quote somewhere where he goes to Al, “you know I’m the only guy on this team who likes you”.

            I guess really my only point – taken me enough time to arrive at it haha – is that I do think there’s at least a tenuous connection between the arrival of high quality, leadership type stud players like Tex and CC, who carry at equal weight to Jeter in that clubhouse at this point, as well as some of the goofball intangible gamers, which started with Johnny but was really brought home with Swish and even little things like the Melky/Cano homerun dance, made it a bit easier for Al to find the security to just be a great player on a great team as opposed to killing himself with over-analysis and an unfounded sense that he needed to be the team not just a part of it.

            There was one tiny moment, after Al’s first game back in ’09, where he bit the bomb on the first pitch at Camden and CC went the distance that while ultimately largely inconsequential, I did find kind of symbolically touching and perhaps portentous – right after the final out, Tex immediately purposefully raced right over to Al and gave him a bear hug. Awfully nice way to be welcomed back, particularly if you’re kind of guy who really does thrive on feeling embraced. That’s just a moment that I don’t see in Jeter’s DNA and so be it. He’s an all time Yankee great, maybe the best competitor I’ve ever seen (Andy, Mo, Coney, O’Neill and yep, Roger Clemens, are up there for me too).

            But I’ve never seen Jeter exhibit an iota of selflessness, be it in respect of Rod, these contract negotiations, etc. and no doubt that eats at me just a little.

            Wow, sorry for yet another intense stream of consciousness ramble :) And fellas, apologies that this isn’t really on topic, please feel free to delete.

        • mbonzo says:

          I really haven’t lost any respect for Jeter, I recognize negotiations are all business. Casey Close really screwed things up for him, Cashman saw an opportunity to take advantage of that, and Close just got out played. It sounded that Jeter was angry at the situation and not the team, I bet he is more angry with Close. He’s been 15 years of incredible public image, and when he throws it into his agent’s hands for the first time in his career, he manages to get people accusing him of greed. Yankees did what they were supposed to do, Close just handled the situation horribly.

  37. Mike says:

    Lee’s agent won’t buy it. Cashman already went over the 6 year line that he said he’d never cross. That’s the problem with giving the 7th year. If you folded once, they’ll think you’ll fold again.

    • mbonzo says:

      I think Cashman is smarter than that. He said he’d never cross the 7 year mark and now he’s saying he won’t increase the total dollars. He knows what the maximum they’re willing to spend, and hes a good enough negotiator to not approach that with the two sides so apart. He’s known since October that the Yankees would go 7 years, and he’s probably prepared to give $24m a year, but he won’t touch that til Lee wants to enter the final negotiations.

    • Jimmy McNulty says:

      Yeah, except it would likely take seven years to get this done because he has competition for his services.

  38. So they won’t offer 8 years/190 million? Cash is playing HARDBALL!

  39. Jimmy McNulty says:

    Christian Red of The New York Daily News hears from a source that the Lee situation “should get resolved early this week.”

    OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE

    • DJH says:

      I read the article and it sounds like someone involved with NY just guessing. The headline also said possibly Monday so basically we are in the same spot, he could decide tonight, Monday or a little later.

      Also keep in mind that person could of meant “resolved” as in official signing, we always know of this stuff before the official team announcement.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Over/under Christmas Day being the day Lee signs.

      I go over.

  40. TJ says:

    Angels……..

  41. TJ says:

    Sorry, THe last post was too Quick, Angels have to be the mystery Team Heyman is referring to.

  42. TJ says:

    Guesses for the mystery team involved? I’ve given mine.

  43. clarko says:

    all this whining about a guy trying to accept the enormous responsibility of actually being the person who has to be the one who does what all you people want him to do and want him to be. what do you actually do? is it so dangerous, so extremely talented? He has to do what he signs up for. Maybe he is a human being? He and his wife need time to realize what is happening? It is enormous. He has to shoulder it. We do not.
    Do something special, people, then put yourself in this position of responsibility. Do it. Do it. Then blah blah blah your opinions about people who perform.
    give me a bucket.
    k

  44. nathan says:

    Well, pull off while we still have a chance. 6 years was too much, 7 is suicide.

    Time to back off and try other trade avenues.

  45. Ladd Jasper says:

    The yankees need to put a deadline on Cliff Lee to give them an answer. Either he wants to play for a dynasty, or he wants to stay in Texas. Make up your mind Mr. Lee.

  46. OXXBOW says:

    If the Yankees don’t beat the Rangers big time (35-40 million) in dollars he goes to Texas.

    • matt says:

      I think that differential is a little high, but not out of the ballpark – but the seventh year being guaranteed at the same AAV as the first six, which the Yanks will gladly offer, as opposed to six years with some kind of vesting option, which seems to be Tex’s limit, carries just as much weight, not only for the very obvious fact that guaranteeing the 7th year in and of itself means that NY’s offer, by definition, will check in at least 23m or so highter than the Rangers.

      Seriously, does anyone have any actual evidence to support an assumption that Lee would rather be with the Rangers than the Yanks? I think he’s played his cards very close to the vest, but it seems to be based on the very little reporting out there is that Lee’s preference, historically, would clearly have been to come to NY rather than TX.

      • Dave says:

        No evidence. It’s just that the perception is that the Yanks have offered the most years and money, and the delay would seem as if Lee is waiting around for Texas to at least match it. Otherwise, it would seem that he’d have accepted the Yanks final offer. But to reiterate, no, there’s no ‘direct’ evidence.

        • matt says:

          I’d suggest that the “delay” – really we’re talking a matter of a few extra days relative to when CC signed has everything to do with Lee’s (wise) choice to just continue to maximize his leverage for as long as possible, e.g., his alleged continuing consideration of what is likely an inferior TX offer probably has much more to do with a desire to create sufficient discomfort amongst the Yanks brass that they pony up a bit more one last time before he signs, as opposed to his drawing out the process based on some largely unrealistic hope that Texas beats the Yanks offer (and again, I’m not sure he even wants that, you ask me, I think that even if the offers are close in value he’s coming to NY. To me, this whole recent thing of various TX folks spending time in Arkansas etc., and even Lee’s possibly communicating to TX brass that they’re in the running just smacks of Lee trying to make the Yanks squirm – I mean he’s met with TX reps several times now, he has their menu of offers and they’re the club he knows. So to me it’s of much greater significance that Lee hasn’t signed with TX – if he had serious designs on doing that, this process would be over, IMHO. Rather, I think it’s highly likely that he knows he’s coming to NY and he simply hasn’t signed yet because there’s no reason why, from his perspective, he needs to sign right this second, he knows his leverage with the Yanks has only increased given some of the Plan B free agents coming off the board early and with Boston’s signing Crawford not only improving that club – in connection with A-Gon, that lineup is so full of lefties, it’s screaming for Cliff Lee – nut also in eliminating the possibility of the Yanks going with Carl and then flipping an outfielder for pitching. Given that the Yanks really don’t have a viable Plan B in place at the moment, from a negotiating standpoint, it makes sense for Lee to just lay back for awhile. And you know Brian Cashman gets that game, hence his comments that the Yanks will not increase their offer. That’s cash signaling, enough, we’re probably going to give you CC’s 7/161 deal, which is a ton higher than we would have wanted, but we’re prepared to do it, so it’s time to sign.

  47. Dave says:

    I honestly feel that Lee’s wife chews Red Man…

  48. Bob Bodnar says:

    The more the wait the more I believe. Lee is going back to Texas. Cashman said you want the money the Yanks offer Lee more then anyone else. You not going to get more anywhere else. Here I am doing my bills and wonder if I have enough to pay them. Fair as I care Lee could sign with the Tokyo Giants. New York is the stage, Very few make it here. Ask Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, Javier Vazquez and Carl Pavano just a few. If you care about CC as your friend and want to be remember. New York is your place.

Leave a Reply

You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

If this is your first time commenting on River Ave. Blues, please review the RAB Commenter Guidelines. Login for commenting features. Register for RAB.