Jan
07
“I will not lose our No. 1 draft pick”
ByVia Chad Jennings, Brian Cashman said (very explicitly) that he will not forfeit the team’s first round draft choice to sign a free agent this afternoon. “I will not lose our No. 1 draft pick,” he said. “I would have for Cliff Lee. I won’t lose our No. 1 draft pick for anyone else.” There’s only two unsigned free agents that would cost a draft pick remaining (assuming Carl Pavano goes back to the Twins): Rafael Soriano and Grant Balfour. The latter was never going to happen, but conflicting reports have surfaced about the former in the last few days. Either way, I’m glad this is over with now. Time to move on.
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Multi-year contract for $10M+ per, plus the draft pick….good call, Cash
cause the 1st round pick is a sure thing right, think again
look at the below list and beside Hughes and I guess Kennedy it is far from impressive. Brackman was a huge mistake for the ML roster inclusion clause.
2010 Cito Culver SS Irondequoit HS, Rochester, N.Y. 32
2009 Slade Heathcott OF Texas HS, Texarkana, Texas 29
2008 Gerrit Cole RHP Orange (Calif.) Lutheran H.S. 28
2007 Andrew Brackman RHP North Carolina State 30
2006 Ian Kennedy RHP Southern California 21
2005 Carl Henry SS Putnam City HS (OK) 17
2004 Philip Hughes RHP Foothill HS, Santa Ana, CA 23
2003 Eric Duncan 3B Seton Hall Prep (NJ) 27
2001 John-Ford Griffin OF Florida State U 23
2000 David Parrish C Yorba Linda, CA 28
1999 David Walling RHP U. of Arkansas 27
1998 Andrew Brown OF Richmond, IN 24
1997 Tyrell Godwin OF Elizabethtown, NC 24
1996 Eric Milton LHP U of Maryland 20
1995 Shea Morenz OF U of Texas 27
1994 Brian Buchanan 1B U of Virginia 24
1993 Matt Drews RHP Sarasota, FL 13
Cashman sucks this off season, wake up people!!!
Eric Milton had value back in the day as well I guess but many more misses than hits with this collection of medoicrity.
many more misses than hits
Congrats, you’ve learned drafting 101. Welcome to reality.
Never mind the different org. philosophy back in the day that Cashman has changed. Slim’s the type who would sign middle relievers for huge money and give up top picks, since you can see the list above.
is drayton moore a skinny guy? cause slim could be him…
Whatever happened to Juan Cruz?
Dayton Moore
Drayton McLane
I don’t think the world could handle a Drayton Moore. Fusing those two would cause the apocalypse.
Actually, 2004 – 2010 doesn’t look that bad.
Still waitin on Brien Taylor. Can’t miss, just needs a little more time.
Are you interested in his rookie card?
many more misses than hits
Congrats, you’ve learned baseball 101. Welcome to the game.
FTFY
many more misses than hits
Danys Baez (2007-2009), 3 years, $19 million: -0.4 WAR
Justin Speier (2007-2010), 4 years, $18 million: -0.2 WAR
Jamie Walker (2007-2009), 3 years, $12 million: -0.5 WAR
Scott Schoeneweis (2007-2009), 3 years, $11 million: -1.5 WAR
Chad Bradford (2007-2009), 3 years, $11 million: +2.0 WAR
Francisco Cordero (2008-2011), 4 years, $46 million: +2.8 WAR
Mariano Rivera (2008-2010), 3 years, $45 million: +7.8 WAR
Scott Linebrink (2008-2011), 4 years, $18 million: +0.5 WAR
David Riske (2008-2010), 3 years, $13 million: -0.6 WAR
Francisco Rodriguez (2009-2011), 3 years, $36 million: +1.7 WAR
Damaso Marte (2009-2011), 3 years, $12 million: -0.2 WAR
Brandon Lyon (2010-2012), 3 years, $15 million: +1.0 WAR
Hey maybe they should sign that Rivera guy, looks like good production for the money.
h/t to you (especially if you just put this together)
No I didn’t. I googled multi year contracts to relievers.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ear-deals/
That’s cool. The back of my hat just won’t go quite as high when I tip it at you.
this is a very good list, thanks for posting.
Sign Soriano for 2 yrs 16 million He will be a great signing and he will make our bullpen strong.
What would you have done differently than Cashman in 2010? Keep in mind Cliff Lee declined the Yankees for less money.
“Cashman sucks this offseason” because he offered Cliff Lee a huge deal only for Lee to turn around and take a small one from the Phillies? Or is it because he is giving Andy Pettitte the time he needs to make a major life decision? Or is it because he doesn’t want to give up a first round draft pick for what really is an interchangeable part in our bullpen? Or because he can’t force other GM’s to trade us their top pitcher in exchange for Pena?
Has it been a rough offseason? Yeah. But none of that is Cashman’s fault.
Did you see the same figures as I did, what I saw was the Phillies offering more per year.
Stop saying he saying for less, maybe less in number at the end but with the Philly deal he makes more per year and stands to make more over the length of the contract.
They were very similar in terms of money, so I disagree that he turned down a ton of money to sign with the Phillies.
Cashman should have offered 2 million more per year and we would not be having this conversation today.
Cashman should have offered 2 million more per year and we would not be having this conversation today.
So wrong. So utterly wrong.
So when Cliff Lee comes out and says “When Philly got involved, I knew where I wanted to go,” what he really means is “Man, if only the Yankees had thrown a couple extra bucks at me, I would TOTALLY go there instead. but I guess I have to settle for this crappy place.”
See, I missed that part.
when you heard a press conference when the player didn’t say he always was going to sign with the team he signed with.
Did you not read how they went back to the Rangers and said if they gauranteed the last year (which would have made their deal the largest) that he would have signed with thim not Philly.
Tex when he signed with the Yankees said the same thing, but I am positive if the RedSox offered more money than the Yankees he would have said the same thing at their press conference.
These players are always about the almightly dollar (with a few exceptions, Lee not being one of them)
Point is Yankees had more money than any other team and had the NEED, and they offered a similar to other 2 other teams figure, in this case Cashman f’d up by not blowing any other offer out of the water.
The whole “guarantee the sixth year, BOOM, I’m yours!!” rumor never came from Cliff Lee, it was just that, a rumor. Unless you know Cliff personally, you don’t know what he was planning.
And just because you have more money doesn’t mean you need to pay a 32 year old pitcher $30M a year until he’s 39.
Step away from the ledge and come back inside. It’s nicer in here.
in this case Cashman f’d up by not blowing any other offer out of the water.
Generally when you blow other offers out of the water it ends up being a bad, bad, bad thing for your team at some point during that deal.
But it also ensures you actually get that player and when you have as much money as the Yanks do, it is really not a big deal to overpay.
Meh, what do you want, him to give Cliff Lee seven years for $25M each? More?
Yes. I would have liked Cashman to up the per year dollar amount on the deal. Again, I realize it is not my money. Just speaking as a fan.
Really… So you’re saying that Cliff Lee WENT BACK TO CASHMAN and told him he’ld sign NOW for $2m/yr? He gave Cashman that opportuniuty because he was willing to pitch for the NYY?
not what I said, if Cashman offered more at least I would feel better about it.
And to Mike’s point above, that is EXACTLY what the Yankees did with CC and Tex, and not too many complaints around here about those guys.
Tex and CC were 28 years old, Lee is 32 there is a huge difference in the risk.
The Yankees only outbid Boston by a small amount… they did NOT blow Teix out of the water.
And yes, they did for CC.
But at that time, they WERE truly desparate.
They had no pitching what-so-ever, and with Hughes already up, their farm hands were years away.
Could we have used Lee?
Most certainly.
Is out pitching far better now then after 2008?
Most certainly.
We are ‘needy’ now, but not desparate.
Lee:Philly:Teixeira:NYY
They have both openly admitted to signing with the team they preferred to sign with.
With Lee, all signs point to the Yankees as a pawn, which is an unfortunate byproduct of being a team with tons and tons of money.
What about having Cliff Lee when he’s 37 or 38 with a bad back being paid almost $30 million a year in a few years when we’ve got the Killer B’s among other youngsters coming up or other top younger FA pitchers we can sign in the next few years?
Cashman made his offer, was a great one, he chose something else, best of luck to him and we move on.
I’m with you. The Phils offered more per year and was a team he has already played for and been to the WS with. The Yanks offered more years, but less per year, and would have been a completely new team. The Yanks offer was surely competitive, but it is not like Lee turned down so much more from the Yanks.
Whether or not offering more per year would have swayed Lee or not, I don’t know. But I like to think it would have.
The Yankees offer may have been less money per year, but he would have been guaranteed to make $27M more. If the option vests he still would have made $12M more. The option is no guarantee to vest either. Lee has to pitch 200 innings in his 36-37 year old season or a combination of 400 innings in his 35-36 season and his 36-37 season. He also can’t finish the last season on the DL with an injury to his left arm. That’s a lot to ask from a pitcher in his mid-30s. Either way he would have made more money with the Yankees and counting on getting a big contract for his 38-39 year old season if the option does vest is risking a lot. The point is he clearly preferred to play for the Phillies over the Yankees and he clearly didn’t care about the extra money that he’ll never spend.
The 1993 pick of Matt Drews is amazingly relevant to this conversation. Maybe someone should remind Cash!
gene michael made a shitty pick in 93! CASHMAN IS TEH SUXOR!
its like a punch in the gut..not signing soriano..it would have perked up some of us yankee fans..but now, there really isnt anything to get excited about..it almost seems like they are selling out..i really agree with you however..
yeah cause signing a reliever and losing a draft opick in one of the strongest drafts talent wise in yrs to appease an ignorant and dumb fanbase is exactly how to run a business.
What is the fucking matter with Cashman?
He could have PERKED UP SOME OF US YANKEE FANS!
What a BAD GM!
O:S
osf (operation: shutdown fail)
And, sure, they can go out and spend tons of money and lost a top draft pick and get this year’s BJ Ryan, or Damaso Marte or Kyle Farnsworth or (insert name of overpaid free-agent relief pitcher).
Agreed. He is so over rated. This off season sucks ass.
Considering the history of late first-round draft picks and the Yanks’ ability to extend dollars to signability guys, I’m going to dissent and wonder if Cashman is putting too much stock into first-round draft picks.
I think people are putting too much stock into setup men.
Would you say the new RAB writers are ones that earned a call up, or are they instant production!!!
They are more like AAA guys who probably have no future with the Yanks due to the Yanks star studded line up who are locked into long term deals, but are auditioning for other teams.
We’re just organizational arms. PTBNL.
And it took three of you to replace me. So I guess I was a 3 WAR weekend writer?
(but I expect you to all put my writing to shame)
You’re a Schlitter?
how valuable was Kerry Wood to the Yankess 2nd half of last year?
they didn’t win it all but he sure helped a great deal
now they lost him and have no replacement
Did you watch Robertson in the playoffs last year?
how valuable was Kerry Wood to the Yankess 2nd half of last year?
They were 66-37 without him and 29-30 with him, so obviously not very.
Did you watch Robertson in the playoffs last year?
Did you watch him in the 2009 postseason? Who cares about the 3.1 innings he threw in the 2010 playoffs?
pwnd
Did you watch him in the regular season and the playoffs the season before?
You make our point for us exaclty Slim, we got Wood for nothing last year at the deadline. We use a bunch of cheap, young, interchangeable arms early and if they don’t work out, we get rid of them for someone else, and if we need to bring in someone we can.
That’s EXACTLY how you should build a bullpen. Build up their stock, trade them off for something better, or let them sign other places and collect the picks.
Boom.
true, but hard to catch lightning in a bottle 2 seasons in a row.
The whole point is that building bullpens through free agency never works. Building them thru the farm and trades does.
How good was the Fernando Seguignol for John Wetteland trade? Absolutely amazing, kudos to the Stick.
Not really with bullpen arms, they’re fungible and interchangeable. They’ve been doing that out in San Diego and Oakland for years. Build up relievers and closers and trade them. San Diego traded 2 nobody middle relievers who were creations of Petco and good luck into Maybin. Beane’s been trading off closers for years. Boston can’t wait to get rid of Papelbon and get 2 picks, seems to be you’re the last one on this bandwagon chief.
the yankees have caught lightning in a bottle almost every yr for like, 10. tanyon sturtze, jose veras, edwar ramirez, aceves, robertson all guys who came up and were “thrown at the wall” and had short to long to sustainable successful stints with the team and could be considered “lightning in a bottle”
shawn chacon, aaron small i mean, every yr almost. if you have 10 options yeah 9 might fail but you will get at LEAST league average out of at least one of them.
those were all guys who helped out of no where but none of them were key 8th inning setup guys
your list is starters and middle relievers.
Fact: the 7th inning is the same number of outs as the 8th inning.
you’re, that one ninth of all innings pitched is incredibly important to the team. More important than resigning our HOF Shortstop and closer.
very good points in this subthread
They lost Kerry Wood because he took less money to sign with the Cubs.
What was Cashman supposed to do?
(Are you really Lombardi?)
If only they offered 2 million a year more…
/Slimmed
Wood is one of the rare exceptions where money would not have swayed the player. Lee is/was not.
Yet you say earlier this thread “Cashman should have offered 2 million more per year and we would not be having this conversation today.” Make up your mind on a point at least, even if it’s wrong have the conviction to stand by it.
I said that with Lee not Wood.
Two different players, two different contracts
You’re only seeing what you want to see.
Maybe “Slim” is Mike Francesa’s ironic nom de Internet.
Do you know Lee personally and he told you money would have swayed him?
do you know him well enough to state he would fall into the 1% category of baseball players that are not in it for the money?
Nope. And I’m not claiming to climb into his mind to find out. Do you know the Phillies wouldn’t have offered more if necessarY?
none of us know.
What we do know is the public perception fueled by the press that Lee took so much less to sign with the Phillies is not true and I find it annoying to hear it 24/7.
The offers are comparable and the Yankees offer should have been far and away the highest one on the table.
I think people are putting too much stock into setup men.
Probably true also. I’m not opposed to signing Soriano at a very favorable rate though. The lost draft pick — number 31 overall — doesn’t really bother me that much.
Soriano didn’t fire his old agent and hire Boras this past summer to take a “very favorable rate” somewhere.
Cashman should be elated if Soriano would sign off on a 2 year, $20 million offer. Losing the 31st pick in return for two years service from the best non-closer in baseball is a no-brainer.
I’m starting to wonder if Cashman really knows what he’s doing. Now I don’t want ppl to take that as he’s a moron or I can do his job. But a couple of yrs ago it seemed like there was a clear cut plan and a method to his process but now IDK
If Cliff Lee said yes to the hundreds of millions of dollars they threw at him, you wouldn’t feel this way at all.
See but it’s not just Cliff Lee it’s other things as well.
I can’t really blame him for Lee because he wanted to go somewhere else but the problem I have is the Yankees were put in a situation of being desperate.
They’re not desperate. That’s Cashman’s whole point.
If they were desperate, they’d have done something stupid by now. Like trade hordes of prospects for Barry Zito or some shit.
Pavano’s still out there though, so no guarantees yet.
I mean they went into a season where it was Lee or bust. Their whole off season was based on signing him. They let it known how bad they needed to upgrade the rotation.
Everyone knew they needed to upgrade their rotation anyway. If we fans know it, every team in the game knows it.
They didn’t go into the off-season where it was “Lee or bust”. They went in to the off-season where it was “Lee or nothing”. There is a huge difference.
I still can’t understand why so many people are so freaked out about this upcoming season. This roster as currently put together is still one of the top 2 in the AL and top 5 in all of baseball. I just don’t get the panic.
Maybe we should fire Girardi and hire Stan “Master of Panic” van Gundy as manager.
This is the first year in awhile I think the odds are strongly against them winning the WS which is what I judge success or failure against. Other teams have moved forward while we so far have moved backwards.
No one is calling for Girardi to get fired. Gundy would be entertaining though
It was “Lee or Bust” because he fit their needs and was the only worthwhile candidate to do so!
They missed out on the real deal and have refused to buy a knock-off. I say, good for Cash and the Yanks. Why spend the money on an inferior product?
It was Lee or nothing this offseason because there were no other options. Sure there was Crawford and Werth, but there was no room for them in an outfield that’s already very good. The Yankees need was pitching and Lee was the only viable option out there.
What other things?
Refusing to move Joba for Haren if all he is is a middle reliever
No upgrades to the pen
Settling for guys like Prior and looking into starters such as Garcia and Bonderman
Right now going into the season their 4 and 5 starters are Nova and Mitre. Nova I don’t have that much of a problem with but Mitre.
Cashman himself admitted that by waiting for Lee it put a hold on other potential moves. That’s not a direct quote but it’s along the lines of what he said.
Refusing to move Joba for Haren if all he is is a middle reliever
Didn’t the Diamondbacks turn down that deal and not the Yankees?
No upgrades to the pen
They don’t need any beyond what they already did.
Settling for guys like Prior and looking into starters such as Garcia and Bonderman
Right now going into the season their 4 and 5 starters are Nova and Mitre. Nova I don’t have that much of a problem with but Mitre.
Cashman himself admitted that by waiting for Lee it put a hold on other potential moves. That’s not a direct quote but it’s along the lines of what he said.
What other moves should they have made? Crawford and Werth were the only other worthwhile FAs. Cashman made mistakes because he didn’t make stupid moves?
According to many fans Cashman balked at adding Joba to the Haren. I’m not saying you’re wrong but that’s what many fans claim happened.
Really? You’re going by what fans say about possible trades.
That’s what was reported. If I’m wrong go ahead and correct. I have yet to see many ppl shoot down Cashman refusing to move Joba for Haren.
No upgrades to the pen
So we’re just not counting Pedro Feliciano or…
“Facts” only fuck-up the narrative. Don’t fuck-up the narrative, bex.
By upgrades I was referring to the 8th inning.
It’s not just about the hundreds of millions, is the way you conduct a bidding, it’s all about the bluffs and so far, Cashboy has struck out more than enough.
You just simply don’t throw 130 millions at a player’s face, you need to go and give him an ultimatum: here’s the money, take it or leave it, ok you show interest, let’s negotiate. Otherwise you’ll end up showing up weak and prone to what the other part wants.
I guess Cashboy never learnt his basic negotiating skills.
PS
Yeah… i’ve been running bussinesses since 15 years ago and everybody behaves the same, from the multimillionaire who doesn’t want to lose a small contract (all about control baby), to someone who’s starting and feels “this” could be his big chance.
You just simply don’t throw 130 millions at a player’s face, you need to go and give him an ultimatum: here’s the money, take it or leave it, ok you show interest, let’s negotiate. Otherwise you’ll end up showing up weak and prone to what the other part wants.
Hilarious.
That’s hilarious. “Here’s my money, and if you don’t like, then go … to the other places offering you similar money!”
That will surely win them over. Why not send some goons over to his house to rough him up as well?
Cashman’s been running the Yankees for 13 years now, to say he didn’t learn his basic negotiating skills is stupid at best.
Yeah, but in that time they’ve only won the World Series five times. That’s clearly indicative of total failure.
you need to go and give him an ultimatum: here’s the money, take it or leave it,
Let me guess. You’re a professional negotiator.
Hey Arte Moreno! How’s the weather out in the Anaheim of Los Angeles of Southern California?
The funny thing is that the Angels put a deadline on the Beltre offer before pulling it. They really showed him who’s boss.
But they got Carl Crawford instead! Oh wait….
for some reason the Angels think there the only ones that make offers to free agents. they always say take it or leave and almost everyone laughs and takes a better offer.
You just simply don’t throw 130 millions at a player’s face, you need to go and give him an ultimatum: here’s the money, take it or leave it, ok you show interest, let’s negotiate.
He did that, and then Lee “left it.”
Isn’t that what he did when Lee’s agent asked for more money?
http://www.karrass.com/
Please go here and try and soak up as much information as you can. If you run a business with that mindset, you’re gonna need it.
You just simply don’t throw 130 millions at a player’s face, you need to go and give him an ultimatum: here’s the money, take it or leave it, ok you show interest, let’s negotiate.
That’s what the Angels did to Beltre. Worked out great for them (and other execs laughed at them).
So let me see if I get this straight….Cashman pulling the Yanks offer for Lee…
…gets him to not sign with the Phillies, a team which is not the Yankees.
I…see.
Or maybe his clear cut plan matched what you wanted back then, but now his clear cut plan doesn’t match yours, so it’s confusing you into making a value judgement??
You could be right about that.
NO team has a clear cut plan for >1 year ahead. That stuff about the Sox being good for the next decade or whatever is bullshit, they could look like crap in five year.
Perhaps they’re also factoring in the class of the upcoming draft, and the dollars it will cost to sign Soriano, and the injury history, and that he’ll cost closer money.
The Yankees will sacrifice a first-round pick. Maybe it’s the combination of the above.
Of course, there is one other scenario. Cashman is lying, letting Boras know that the price for Soriano is already high based on the loss of a draft pick, so they’re telling him to lower his $$ amount if they want to have a real discussion about Soriano being on the Yankees. Face it, Cashman has said one thing and then done another when it comes to the free-agent market in the past. Not picking on him. Not at all. If it’s a negotiating tactic, all well and fine. Well, outside I really don’t want Soriano.
I’m going to assume he’s making a negotiating ploy to some degree here. I mean, Soriano is a good, major league pitcher. Obviously there’s some point at which the contract is favorable enough for the team that signing him outweighs keeping the pick, the only question is whether he’ll accept that deal. If he does, I don’t honestly think Cashman would hold onto the pick rather than sign Soriano, set up guy or not.
I love this quote from Cash. This should quiet all the people that think a middle reliever is a panacea for the Yanks 2011 season.
To be fair Soriano is not a middle reliever. The guy Cashman refused to trade for Haren is.
If the Yankees sign him, that’s what he’ll be. A middle reliever making closer money.
Actually the eighth inning isn’t the middle unless the game goes 16 innings.
If he’s not starting and he’s not closing, where is he? In the middle. Setup guy is just a fancy name with zero significance.
In my opinion the game has evolved past your simplification . Most teams also disagree hence why the set-up pitcher is usually the second best reliever on the team.
I’m starting to believe that Cashman’s translation of “patience” is be prepared for a season of transition,which I’m fine with.
bridge year was last year’s buzzword
For the Red Sox.
After the fact.
Thank god the Yankees have an awesome group of scouts who… oh wait, scratch that.
If the yanks were to pick 1-5, yes, it’s not worth it, but with the yanks picking 20+, it doesn’t make a difference at all. They can always go to México, Dominican Republic, or even Venezuela to find good young, talented players TO USE in the MLB and not just to have them at the minor leagues, which is what they’ve been doing after signing the best material they can get their hands on in those countries.
this is one of the deepest drafts in recent memory. you could easily get a great top 15-20 player at 31 let alone a top 10 signability guy. people really need to actually uinderstand the facts before they make statements in a vacuum
This, a thousand times.
Yeah, the same was said last year, and look how the Padres ended up LMAO!!!
See… problem with people is they think things that have not happened are FACTS, you can’t understand a fact that has yet to happen.
Fact: yanks suck at scouting.
Fact: yanks will have a chance to scout a mediocre to regular talent, not TOP talent, that will fly in the first 15 picks.
Fact: yanks suck at scouting, yeah i already said it, but they do suck terribly.
Fact: yanks suck at overhyping their minor leaguers.
Fact: yanks are afraid to test their good minor leaguers in the majors.
Fact: cashboy said “more than general manager i am the guy who gets to spend the millions”, that’s not very wise and goes to show he thinks money alone will buy players and he’s been left staring blind into the sun.
Fact: Yankees have a Top 6 farm system
Fact: My one fact just refuted all of your facts (though truthfully there was no way I read all of them).
what national publication or website has the Yankees farm system ranked in the top #6?
I have always seen them in the middle of the pack?
Baseball America has them top 6 now.
They have generally been middle of the pack recently, but have been producing much more talent since Cashman gained full control of the baseball ops (including the farm). It hasn’t always translated into farm system rankings because guys get traded or promoted to the majors which provides significant value, but doesn’t help the farm system ranking.
Baseball America
Thank you , sorry for my ignorance on that was just asking.
I have not see BA’s latest rankings and only knew up to last seasons.
“Fact: Yankees have a Top 6 farm system.” That isn’t a fact that is an opinion.
…of a publication whose job it is to make assessments on things such as the quality of a MLB team’s farm system.
What’s your job?
Point being: Yes, rankings such as this are inherently based on opinion; however, the opinons of some should be more highly respected and appreciated than the opinion of others.
My point being to show your erroneous claim of an opinion as fact. It may be an expert opinion but it is an opinion nonetheless. What my job is is not relative to what constitutes a fact versus an opinion.
Fact: yanks suck at scouting.
Also fact, they have one of the best farm systems in the game, so they obviously don’t suck.
Fact: yanks will have a chance to scout a mediocre to regular talent, not TOP
Nest year’s draft class will be one of the best in years. Also, caps don’t make you right.
Fact: yanks suck at scouting, yeah i already said it, but they do suck terribly.
Waste of bandwidth, still not true.
Fact: yanks suck at overhyping their minor leaguers.
This makes no sense. Are you saying they don’t do a good job of overhyping minor leaguers?
Fact: yanks are afraid to test their good minor leaguers in the majors.
We know this because they kept Hughes, Joba, Robertson, Kennedy, Cano, Wang, and oh so many others buried for a long time.
Fact: cashboy said “more than general manager i am the guy who gets to spend the millions”, that’s not very wise and goes to show he thinks money alone will buy players and he’s been left staring blind into the sun.
He also said that as a joke.
Fact: yanks suck at scouting.
This is so far from being a fact that it boggles my mind you could write it seriously.
I’m surprised his spell check didn’t popup and say “are you sure this is what you mean?”.
Fact: you have no idea what you’re talking about.
FACT: I am faster than 80% of all snakes
/Dwight Schrute’d
FACT: Bears eat beets.
IETCVM
I am willing to bet you whoever the Yankees draft in the first round of any year will never make a major impact in the big leagues.
Can I take you up on that regarding, say, 2004?
Perhaps 1992 as well?
Sure and I will take you up on it every other year and win more often by a substantial margin.
good. they don’t need another setup man. Why waste a pick on a want? if it is a need then yes. if it was a starter that could be a 1 2 or a 3? then sure ok. but a reliever? or something the team already has depth at? poor management. it isn’t about not wasting a pick on a free agent. If there was a player that would fill a weakness on the yankees then giving up a pick would not be an issue. There wasn’t anyone else in this free agent class who wouldve been worth losing a pick for because everyone but lee did not fill a need for the yankees but wouldve been an extra or a want and not a need.
wow…i just reread this and i can tell i wrote it at 430 on a friday. dear god.
I don’t mind Cashman not wanting to sign Soriano and give up the pick, but I surely hope he won’t be reluctant to sign players, not as good as Lee, we actually want in the future because we have to give the pick up.
The pick is nice, but we can make that up with international free agents, and guys with signability issues like Ben wrote above. And also by signing free agents.
I think Cashman has shown the willingness to give up the pick in the past for the right players. This is a loaded draft and he would have given it up for Lee in a heartbeat, but also I’m sure any other top notch player if available. Soriano is not a top notch player. He’s a top notch relief pitcher. I also don’t think he’s refusing to give up the pick for Soriano, he’s refusing to give up the pick in addition to a 3 year/$30+ million deal for a setup guy with an injury history on the wrong side of 30.
Only way I give up the pick for Soriano is if he signs a team friendly deal, like 3 yrs/$15 mil, but that won’t happen, so…”On the clock with the 31st pick, the New York Yankees select ..”
Yea, I am hoping this is his thinking as well, and not a sign we are starting to run our team more like small market teams because “moneyball” has become all the fad.
What does Moneyball have to do with anything? Do you even understand what the book is about?
Yes. It has to do with getting as much production as possible while paying as little as possible. The Yanks don’t need to operate like this because we have so much money and can afford to over pay and get ripped off sometimes for top talent. Win at all costs.
I’m just seeing a slight trend in the way the Yanks are starting to operate. It is not my money and that is their prerogative, but I guess the days of out spending teams by leaps and bounds might be over. We still spend more than everyone, so it is tough to complain too much. Maybe it is my expectations that have to change.
Not saying we shouldn’t look for value and overpay for everyone. Or that we are all of a sudden a small market team. Just an observation based on the past couple of off seasons.
…I guess the days of out spending teams by leaps and bounds might be over.
Oh good grief. You act like out spending every team by $50M is a good thing. They did that every year from 2002-2008 and what did that lead too?
Yankees now only win World Series when they spend half a billion in contracts so…
LOL
I don’t think having a higher payroll than everybody by 50 million is the reason we didn’t win a WS. I mean, we went to the WS in 2003, went to game 7 of the ALCS in 2004 and made the playoffs every year other than 2008. It was not exactly the dark ages for the Yanks. There were probably many reasons we didn’t win the WS in those years but I doubt it was because our payroll wasn’t considerably lower.
And if Pettitte returns (or Cashman gets someone of similar value – which is still likely), then they will have a better team than the 2010 team which was two wins from the WS. And that can be accomplished without throwing ridiculous money at a reliever.
I already said I don’t mind Cashman not wanting to overpay for a reliever, especially when we already are paying a reliever 15 million.
Moneyball was about three words: exploiting market inefficiencies. That’s it. And no matter what you are, who you are, or how much money you have, exploiting market inefficiencies is ALWAYS something you should be doing.
Yes, I get that and I wrote that I don’t think the Yanks should not look for value. Obviously. It is pretty undeniable that Cashman has brought a shift in philosophy when he took over the team. And much of that philosophy has been great, but I am starting to maybe see a slight trending downside to that.
Moneyball has obviously turned into a trigger word. Didn’t mean to start a shit storm and I have seen the “moneyball means this,” no, “moneyball means that” debate. Not looking to get into that.
Okay, fine. We’ll scrap the Moneyball, and get back to your original concern, which is that the Yankees aren’t spending more than everyone by leaps and bounds anymore.
My response is: the Yankees only spend more than everyone by leaps and bounds when there is good reason to do so. See the 2008-2009 offseason, when the Yankees signed CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira, and A.J. Burnett. See the 2010-2011 offseason, when the Yankees re-signed Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera, and tried to sign Cliff Lee.
I’d rather the Yankees hold onto their money and be able to pick up a Roy Oswalt-salary dump at the deadline, rather than fall into one of the biggest market inefficiencies around by throwing money at bench players or relief pitchers. Both are highly fungible, and both can be had for far fewer dollars.
Obviously the Yankees have rotational needs, but scarce supply in the free agent market is going to make pitching (already an expensive commodity) even MORE expensive, and I don’t think there’s any upside in paying someone like Carl Pavano money to be Sergio Mitre.
That is fine. I would have preferred to overpay Lee and not have to wait for a “salary dump” type of player who we would end up having to overpay for anyway. Not saying my opinion is the only one. Just my opinion.
Fair. I think the Yankees tried to overpay for Lee (certainly in years, if not in dollars), but if signing Lee would have required upwards of $26 or $27 million a year for six or seven years, I’m not sure I’d have been in favor of that.
And truthfully, we don’t really know how much the Yankees needed to outspend Philadelphia OR Texas (reportedly Lee’s top two choices) by in order to land Lee, and so it’s really hard to speculate like this.
Remember, the Yankees arguably overpaid for A.J. Burnett, and not too many people are happy about THAT right now.
But it won us a championship. There is a trade off.
“My response is: the Yankees only spend more than everyone by leaps and bounds when there is good reason to do so.” I disagree as evidenced by Arod’s contract extention and the recent Jeter deal.
Cashman up until this offseason has done a good combo of the moneyball philosphy mixed in with overspending on select talents (CC, Tex, etc..)
He was set to do that again with Lee this off season, problem is he underestimated the rest of the market and thought his offer was far superior.
All of sudden the Rangers had the same money on the table as the all mighty Yanks and the Phils came out of nowhere with a similar offer leaving Cash with egg on his face.
With CC and Tex the Yanks knowingly overpayed with Lee they underestimated the size of the other offers out there.
Normally one loss is not a big deal but the Yanks setup their entire mid season last year and entire off season this year on getting Lee, making it a very big deal.
I have noticed that balance too, and just started to possibly wonder if maybe it was less a balance, and more a shift that is slowly moving closer and closer to one side. Time will tell and my comment was not meant to be a set in stone fact, but more of something I will be looking out for. When the King dies, King George, things tend to change.
thought his offer was far superior.
Prove that statement.
Alternatively, the Yankees concluded that if they were going to make an offseason splash, it was going to be Lee. And since it appears that there was nothing the Yankees could have done to acquire Lee, you cannot really fault the Yankees for that.
Might they have signed Lee for $28 million a year over six, seven, or eight years? Sure, but that’s ridiculous.
You’re acting as if the Yankees cannot field a World Series-competitive team without Cliff Lee, and that’s factually untrue. The Yankees were a 97-win team last year – the best in baseball – according to the underlying metrics. Even if Pettitte does not resign, the Yankees are still probably a 94-win team this year AS PRESENTLY CONSTRUCTED, and that’s still likely enough to get into the postseason.
That does not even account for midseason pickups, which could be good for an additional one-two wins over the last months of the season.
The Yanks are definitely WS contenders. I don’t think otherwise. I was just a bit surprised I guess that another team offered more per year for Lee. Sure the Yanks offered more years.
Like I said earlier, maybe it is my expectations that have to change. I thought the Yanks were primed to make Lee an offer that was more per year and at least equal amount of years or more years than any other team. The Rangers, Yanks and Phils all had comparable, competitive offers. Offering more years, but less per year is not what I had in mind. But I can’t state it enough, it was what “I” had in mind, obviously not what the Yanks had in mind.
The Yankee offer was far superior. They guaranteed $148M, while the Phillies guaranteed $120M.
How much would have been enough to sway Lee?
“exploiting market inefficiencies” — so, in other words, “getting as much production as possible while paying as little as possible”
“getting as much production as possible while paying as little as possible”
Also known as common sense.
Right. Deciding whether to knowingly overpay for top talent is not common sense and can be reasonably argued both ways. More money in my pocket and still field a good team, or less money in my pocket and try to field the best team I could possibly put together.
But that’s not to limit spending: rather, that’s in order to make the most use of your limited resources. And yes, even the Yankees have limited resources – their limits happen to be higher than everyone else’s, but they still exist.
Again, I’d rather the Yankees not pour money into middle relievers and back-of-the-rotation starters, saving that money either for a mid-season pickup, or – and this is probably one of the biggest market inefficiencies in baseball – attracting quality scouts and front office executives with higher salaries. You can get more bang-for-your-buck spreading that money around than simply throwing it at players whose production can be approximated for fewer dollars.
I wanted them to offer Lee more per year and have a clearly better offer than other teams, while also doing what you write. Definitely don’t want them to overpay for mediocre players.
I acknowledge that what I’m saying basically amounts to spending money that is not mine. I don’t think I’m entitled to Lee or anything like that. Just made an observation on the direction of the Yanks overall philosophy. If others don’t see that, or see it and are on board and don’t see any of the negatives, that is cool too.
No, that’s fair. I see your point now. Personally, I think you’re seeing things that aren’t there – I don’t think the Yankees overall philosophy has changed much, if at all, since Cashman last renewed his contract – but I can appreciate that reasoned minds can disagree about this sort of thing.
Whereas slim just keeps offering a revisionist history that I don’t think ANY reasonable individual can buy. Consistently overpaying everyone by leaps and bounds leads to more A.J. Burnett, Daisuke Matsuzaka, and Barry Zito situations than it does CC Sabathia, c.2000 Alex Rodriguez, and c. 2000 Derek Jeter situations…
Fallen, can’t reply to your comment below so I am commenting above.
I agree that signing Soriano is not a great financial move and am on the same page with Mike HC on this one.
The situation as I see it is they have dug themselves a big hole by messing up the Lee situation and their dependence on him so badly that Soriano is the best remaining option.
I don’t think that the Soriano contract would hamper them financally for years to come, I don’t think that they will lower my ticket price if they don’t get him and I do think he makes their team better this year so why not sign him.
Overall though I would have preferred they sign Lee bring back Pettite and do nothing else. I would not want them to sign Soriano had they signed Lee.
Sorry but I don’t like the Yankees chances against the RedSox this year as the team stands and would prefer to go for the division not the wild card.
It has to do with getting as much production as possible while paying as little as possible.
Wrong. It has to do with exploiting inefficiencies in the marketplace.
Wrong. It has to do with taking advantage of improperly valued commodities on the open market.
I guess you are being serious. So, why do you think they tried to exploit inefficiencies in the marketplace? Hmm, maybe so they can get as much production as possible while paying as little as possible.
Soriano is not the right guy unless he takes a really team friendly deal which he won’t. Soriano is a great reliever, but that is the problem he is a reliever. The Yankees will probably get at least top 15 talent in next year’s draft due not only to its depth, but the Yankees willingness to pay overslot.
I can’t wait for the season to start, but…holy crap will it be insufferable amongst fair weather fans if the Yanks start the season slowly…
Business as usual
“Slowly” meaning an Opening Day loss. Or possibly a loss in the first Spring Training game, which would just prove HOW much better the Phillies are.
Actually I meant first inning of the first intrasquad game…
I just have a feeling it will be particularly ridiculous given the nature of this off-season.
Yeah, when Pope blows the game on March 1st on hell will break lose.
It’s amazing that we can have such a heated discussion about Soriano, when we have NO IDEA what he will cost.
If Cashman offers 3/$28m, we can discuss whether this is a good idea or not.
If Cashman offers 4/$48m, we can discuss whether this is a good idea or not.
If Boras says the bidding starts at 4/$48m, we can discuss whether Cashman should go there or not.
Some people here act like it’s a trade… Soriano for our draft pick. My guess is the draft pick is simply the straw that broke the camels back, on a deal that is apt to be too expensive and too long/risky.
My guess is the draft pick is simply the straw that broke the camels back, on a deal that is apt to be too expensive and too long/risky.
Agreed. If Soriano offered his services for 3/$15 million, I’m pretty damn sure Cash would give up the pick.
Exactly…losing a draft pick and paying Soriano for a year or two at a normal reliever’s rate is different than losing a draft pick and paying him closer’s dough and giving him a long deal.
At this point Rauch or Fuentes (if they are reasonably priced) are far better options.
These fake fans showed their true colors, they only like the Yankees because they spend when they need to. That’s the only reason they “love” the team. An offseason where Cashman doesn’t do what they want and they go into a spiral of depression, rants, and rage. I’m surprised there hasn’t been another letter from a “lifelong” fan that doesn’t approve of how the team is being run. I wonder where did that guy go? Wasn’t he a teacher?
Well, I’m not sure how long a life you are talking about, but I’ve been a follower since ’65, and all-in-all, I’m impressed, and have faith in Cashman.
Our financial clout simply doesn’t have the clout it did 10 years ago, when very few teams were willing to overspend and put out $100m contracts. Things are different now.
As our Core is aging and retiring, Cashman sees the need to ‘retool’ using our farm. This is a difficult balancing act, as we still manage to make the PS almost every year. But this is not a given. As MLB and the MLBPA struggles for ‘financial parity’, Yankees money will have a lesser impact.
Cashman IS changing a bit, but this is because the marketplace is changing a lot.
The Yankees simply cannot afford to overpay, in money and length, on EVERY player they want. The numbers just don’t work if you want to sustain an elite ballclub. If you are happy to make the PS twice a decade (as many others teams would be happy to do), you can occasionally go balls-to-the-wall, and try to Win now, knowing that you can’t sustain it.
We simply can not always spend our way out of our weaknesses. Cashman knows this… has shown this… over the last 4 years. We spend BIG when it is NECESSARY, not just desireable.
I completely agree. That’s the approach that will lead to sustained success. Personally, I believe building from within (Cano, Jeter, Posada, Hughes, etc) plus FA signings leads to a successful ball club. I hate how many fans want to send all our prospects with potential out for any player just for the sake of making a move. We need to see what our young ones have and build a solid core from the ones that pan out. We have quite a few prospects with potential I doubt all of them will bust.
Meh, let the bandwagon get empty. We can smirk at them when they’re all crying out about how they BELIEVED ALL ALONG!!
For people who think Cashman has lost it, Baseball America (BA), not exactly the most pro-Yankee Group in America, has rated their Farm System “A Top 6 Organization”, which means they are doing something right. Beyond that, the history of Free Agency and the Yankees have had far more misses than hits (Carl Pavano is just one obvious example of this).
The key to future success, will be two fold: 1: Find cost effective guys who really want to be here (Brett Marshall & Bryan Mitchell are examples of this). 2: Increase the Organization’s depth so the next time a Garza or Grienke becomes available, they can trade for them WITHOUT mortgaging the future.
I am sort of surprised the Yanks are a top 6 organization due to the lack of high level hitting talent especially in the upper levels.
Jesus Montero. That’s really all you need. But they have other decent hitting prospects at the high levels, too. Impact bats? No, but how many farm systems have more than one or two impact bats at the high levels every year?
Outside of Laird and Romine there are not a ton of high level hitting prospects non-Montero division and Laird probably won’t be more than a bench player for the Yanks. Romine will also need a bounce back year.
You could probably count the number of teams with multiple impact hitting prospects at the upper levels on one hand.
The Yankees have been putting most of their resources into Starting Pitching and Catching (The two most valuable commodities out there), which BA gives a higher weight to, because of their scarcity. Now they are increasing their depth in other areas. For example: In this year’s draft, they focused in on relief pitching (Kahnle, Burawa, Whitley & Nuding), and athletic guys (Culver, Gamel, Gumbs & Williams), while still adding more starting pitching (Watch Encinas, he may be the steal of the draft), and power hitters such as Segedin & Austin. ps. They also added Rafael DePaula for far less than what one of these free agent relief pitchers cost.
Oppenheimer 2010: Spreading money around draft selections >>>> first round talent the likes of Nick Castellanos.
Oppenheimer 2011 better be singing something different.
Wait… haven’t the Yankees had basically the bottom of the barrel picks for 15 years in a row? Shouldn’t their farm be one of the worst?
Is there ANY other team that has had an average of lower picks then the Yanks since 1996? Shouldn’t their farm be THE worst?
How can we possibly have a Top 6 Farm?
That can’t be possible, can it?
WAIT!!!!!!!
I know why!!!!
Because the Yankees SUCK at scouting.
To be fair, at least three of the Yankees’ top five prospects, according to BA (Montero, Sanchez, Banuelos), were IFA signings, and not draftees.
Granted, you still need really good scouting to identify those signings, and you need a great player development system in place to help those talents reach their ceilings.
And yeah, there are always the signability cases, too (Betances, Brackman), which allows the Yankees to stock their system with high-upside talent despite low draft picks.
I’m glad this is over with now. Time to move on.
Apparently not. >_>
(Also I give everything Cashman says the “Bubby Crosby is our Opening Day center fielder” treatment, as much as I don’t really want them to sign Soriano.)
That’s why I’m still holding out hope that Joba will be given a shot at the rotation.
Well said,
Because Cashman ALWAYS tells the truth
especially when negotiating with Boras.
This is the most trollish thread since September.
Easily one of the most entertaining, though. The real question is: If the Red Sox had done little or nothing to improve their club, would these “fans” be so up in arms? People read about the paper champions and freak out and need someone to blame (read: Cashman).
So the Red Sox might win the AL East. BFD. To these “fans,” it’s all about the “rivalry” and not about doing what’s best for the team. God forbid another team have bragging rights over you. Woopdeedoo! Let me know how those contracts taste in a few years when the Yankees are out from under some of their big money contracts.
Which pick do the Yankees get in the draft?
Go up to the top of the blog, there’s a “2011 Draft Order” button.
One that in all likelihood prove to be of little value.
Let’s not also forget that signing Soriano will give the Rays two extra first rounders (the Yanks 1st and a supplemental pick). Tampa has proven they can and will develop players, and they usually end up making an impact. Mike pointed out on Twitter earlier this week that they hadn’t busted on a potential impact arm since Brazleton. Giving two picks away to a division rival is bad in the long-term.
Cashman’s goal has always been 2011, but also 2012 to the future, regardless of his contract.
You realize they’ll get two picks if any other team signs Soriano too..
He won’t lose the Yanks’ number one draft pick to sign a FA, but he would have lost Jesus Montero for Joakim Soria? Riiiight…
Then that’s it for thinking about the Yankees for me till Opening Day. One free agent signing, no trades, no nothing. Think I’ll read about iPad 2 rumors or other tech stuff while killin’ time on the web instead of baseball “Cold Stove” stuff…it’s much more interesting. Hey, I gotta good book too!
Till Baseball season, Bye, bye RAB.
Cashman is just trying to out-Boras, Boras. Everyone knows that a #1 pick is hit or miss especially considering that the once in a generation pitcher who signed with Washington may never pitch another game. Fahgettabout the pick. Cashman just is not interested in paying closer money to Soriano. And what is all the talk about Cliff Lee? Thats water under the bridge. He came in his jeans when Philly got in the game and I for one am glad he went where he’s happiest. Personally, I can’t wait to face the Phillies in the World Series. I want my Yanks to show that the best rotation in the galaxy still has to step on the field and play. I want Andrew to come back especially so that he can make his farewell lap around the stadium to a standing O. I think he would not come back “just” for that, but it would be nice if he wanted to pitch and get his ovation. I’d love to get any of those 3 big closers as a set up guy. Reasonably priced, and accepting that they will set up and not close. The pen needs the help. It won’t bother me to have a season waiting for youngsters to mature. It won’t bother me to save money this season to spend next year. I don’t need to win the series every single year to feel good. But I want a competitive team on the field and and expect the players to perform to their ability and not be distracted.
“Cashman is just trying to out-Boras, Boras.”
I think there is truth in this. When you’re the Yankees, and everybody knows you’ve got the cash and aren’t afraid to spend it, everybody also knows that they can exploit you and use you as a means to an end (even if that “end” results in a player signing elsewhere; i.e. Cliff Lee). Cashman knows he’ll be used by agents, so it’s comments like this that even the playing field, if only just a bit. Every once and a while, the Yanks have to remind the FA world, “We are not your bitch.” Consider a comment like this that reminder.
Agree, just sending a message. “In case you forgot how you screwed over Johnny Damon by bullshitting me and him, as well as the fact I wasn’t afraid to go toe-to-toe with Derek Jeter’s agent in the press, let me remind you, Mr. Boras, to conduct yourself respectfully and realistically.”
Considering that this draft is supposed to be fairly stacked, I’m not terribly opposed to holding onto the pick. The supplemental pick would certainly make losing it a bit more palpable, but having quantity is a good thing for now. I still wish the Yankees had offered Wood arbitration – were that the case, I’d be fairly cavalier with this situation.
I feel like people are missing out on the fact that Soriano isn’t a sure thing. Tommy John Surgery in 2004, another elbow surgery in 2008, and a few shoulder strains leave me a bit worried.
I’m not in love with Soriano either. I prefer Soria as he has been consistently good over several years. Either way, there will be cost. I like Fuentes too and since there is more than one way to skin a cat, I’d venture to say that if we signed 2 of the 3, that would soften the reality that there will be no high profile starter signed till the deadline at the soonest. I hear so much talk about “fit” with teams. I remember a different Soriano refusing to move from 2nd base to left field and other stories like that. You do what the guys who signs your check, (for playing a child’s game), tells you to do. You do like the guy on Texas did twice now…change from short to third to DH if that what it takes to win.
It would be a shame if a player would not sign a deal because he wouldn’t get to play the position he wanted.
Now, I understand that Soriano wants to close because it will be in his best interest to remain a closer. He will make more money by piling up stats as a closer than piling up stats as a “holder”. So he is smart. But there is a price you pay by being smart. Boras is smart but he is a dootzbag. He is a smart dootzbag, and that is how history will remember him. Soriano, Fuentes, and Soria will need to make the choice…rich team player…or slightly richer “smart dootzbag”. We all have choices in life.
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