Jan
29

With Yanks out of race, Santana lands in Queens

By

Update 4:17 p.m.: The Mets have acquired Johan Santana, according to Bob Nightengale of USA Today.

Based on reports from sources close the teams, the Twins have accepted the Mets’ offer of Carlos Gomez, Kevin Mulvey, Deolis Guerra, and Phil Humber in exchange for the All Star lefty. The deal will be complete pending both a physical and a six- or seven-year contract for Santana. The Mets have a two- or three-day window during which they can negotiate.

At this point, I don’t really see this deal falling apart, and if Johan couldn’t land in the Bronx for the right price, seeing him in Queens instead of Boston is a huge positive.

======

Two well-connected baseball writers – Buster Olney and Jon Heyman – are reporting the same news on the Johan Santana front: The Twins have their final offers in hand, and the Yankees are not one of the suitors.

Olney writes:

In keeping with a request from pitcher Johan Santana, the Twins have fielded offers from all interested parties by a mid-day Tuesday deadline, and Minnesota is expected to make a decision soon on whether to keep the left-hander or trade him, perhaps to the Mets — who appear to be strong front-runners — or the Red Sox, sources say.

The Yankees do not appear to be engaged in the Santana talks.

Santana, who completely controls his fate because of the full no-trade clause that he possesses, asked the Twins to make a decision, which is why Minnesota imposed the deadline for offers from the interested team.

Heyman notes that the Yanks informed the Twins that Minnesota could not have Phil Hughes, and the Twins don’t appear interested in other packages that the Yanks could potentially put together.

Meanwhile, despite the Santana-enforced deadline, a trade is not a forgone conclusion. If the Twins don’t like the Mets’ or Red Sox’s final offers, they could sit on Santana until the middle of Spring Training. Olney notes that myriad circumstances from injury to steroid distraction could present themselves to the contending teams that might make them up their offers. Either way, this story should peak this week.

For now, it looks like the Yanks are out of it. While we’re opposed to trading young pitchers away for Johan Santana, a lot of fans are on the fence about the deal. Only time will tell, of course, if the Yanks, showing rare restraint, made the right move here.

Categories : Hot Stove League
  • Nefarious Jackson

    so we might be days or hours away from officially having saved the big three… one time I’ll be rooting for the Mets(to get Santana-go mets)

    :)

  • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    I hope they trade him to the Long Island Ducks for Danny Graves.

  • Rich

    Bill Smith will probably go down in baseball history as the GM who foolishly turned down a deal that included Phil Hughes. As they say in the real estate business, “you snooze, you lose.”

  • JRVJ

    What I still don’t get is why the Yankees haven’t commoditized Igawa into something else (a reliever, B prospects, whatever).

    Commoditizing Igawa seemed like a good way to start amassing chips the Twins may want (perhaps by sending Igawa and – say – an Allan Horne to another team, they could come up with a position player which the Twins actually liked).

    • Rich

      Probably because Cash has used the posting fee as part of Igawa’s valuation, and every other team’s valuation is limited to his salary.

      • JRVJ

        The posting fee is a sunk cost, no matter how you look at it.

        Perhaps Cashman thinks he can sell high after spring training, but it looks like my comment is irrelevant, since Santana seems to have gone to the Mets.

        Unless Sabathia AND Teixeira are on the market after 2008, the Yanks will have lots of money to play with and nobody to spend it on next off-season….

        (Arguably, this Santana trade increases the possibility that Pettitte will be in the Bronx for 2009).

        • Rich

          I realize that it’s a sunk cost, but when the Pads claimed Igawa on waivers during the season, it was reported that part of the reason that Cash and Towers were having trouble completing a deal was that Cash wanted some consideration for the posting fee. Of course, that consideration could be financial rather than in player personnel assets.

    • steve (different one)

      i think it is because Igawa has no trade value.

      • Moose

        hahah. I’m with Steve on this one.

        However, HOW THE FU*K DID THE TWINS ACCPET THIS DOGSH*T OFFER FROM THE METS AND SPIT IN THE YANKEES FACE WHEN THEY OFFERED A CONVINCINGLY SUPERIOR PACKAGE!

        Ultimately, if he had to go anywhere, im glad its in the NL and away from us. Just kinda stings knowing that the Mets are pretty much a lock for WS next yr and we’re gonna be reading more about them than the Yanks. Whatever, atleast we kept our youth and Boston stayed the same.

        • sabernar

          Jeez, relax. “A lock for the World Series”??? Puh-leez. No one is a lock for the World Series. Ever. No matter who is on the team. No matter how many games they win in the regular season.

          • Moose

            Ok, let me clarify myself…THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO TEAM IN THE NL THAT CAN COME CLOSE TO COMPETING WITH THE METS NOW. THE NL IS A JOKE, AND THE METS JUST GOT THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL. THEY’LL PROBABLY WIN 100 GAMES AND SHOULD BE THE PRE-SEASON WS FAVORITES OUT OF THE NL. BUT YES, LIGHTNING CAN STRIKE, HOWEVER, IF THE METS DONT MAKE THE WS, THIS WOULD BE AN EVER BIGGER UPSET THAN THEM NOT MAKING THE PLAYOFFS LAST YEAR.

            • Ron

              I would still take the D-Backs pitching staff over the Mets, and you know the saying about pitching and short series.

  • Realist

    Great to see that they are sticking to their guns regarding Hughes! I look forward to watching him progress this year and hopefully for quite some time !

    :-)

  • Ivan

    They have been reports that Johan Santana turned an offer from the Twins that was worth 5/100M.

    So clearly the Twins want to keep him and at the same time it tells you that he’s getting traded before 08 season start.

  • http://www.myspace.com/j_panama Jamal G.

    Great news to hear and improves my day since I keep hearing of Plaxico’s damn predictions bringing so much attention.

    Twins GM Bill Smith will now have two flags on his permanent record: 1. He traded Johan Santana 2. He passed on acquiring Phil Hughes via trade.

    Not a great start their Mr Smith.

  • Rich

    USA TODAY reports that Santana is going to be a Met.

  • Lanny

    If the Mets get him for that sh*t offer Smith should be immediately fired.

  • Realist

    If that is accurate and happens , I believe it is the best thing for The Yanks! Santana will eat the NL alive and he doesn’t cost the Yanks Hughes plus doesn’t make the Sox better. Git er done!

  • Lanny

    Why would Santana take 5 yrs and 100 mill?

    If he can get that now imagine what he can get on the open market.

    Some guys like being in control of their own destiny and signing for as much as he can. Its called free markets. Revolutionary concepts.

  • Lou

    Isn’t the best Hughes could ever turn into Johan Santana? Likely, he will never be as good.

    i don’t understand why most Yankee fans wouldn’t pull the trigger. I can understand not doing 2 young pitchers for Johan, but I would happily ship Hughes Cabrera.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      You’re talking about Santana of years past, though. The Mets are getting Santana of the future. BIIIIIIIG difference.

      • Realist

        Well said and the point most miss….

      • Lou

        I am sorry – Santana is going to be 29 this year. Why do so many just assume he is going to break down and not give as good of innings? He is currently the premier pitcher in all of baseball. It is truly Santana and everyone else.

        • Rich

          You also get Hughes at $500,000 a year as opposed to paying Santana up to $25 million a year. That cost differential enables you to sign a number of other players. When you take the value of those players along with Hughes’s value, it’s almost impossible for Santana to contribute more than that.

        • Realist

          Well at 29 does he have more value than a 21 year old…w/out the miles on his arm? Plus one that has proved he can pitch in NY?

          Not trying to argue but if you take that into consideration plus Melky and a few other top tier prospects AND having to pay him the 7 year deal at at least 20 mil per…it’s a no brainer imho.

        • sabernar

          Not necessarily break down this season, but the Mets are going to be paying him over $20M/yr for probably 7 seasons. When was the last time a pitcher didn’t break down over a 7 year season?

  • steve (different one)

    good trade for the mets.

    smith blew it. he should have taken hughes while he had the chance.

    • Steve S

      thats a phenomenol trade for the mets. They practically gave up nothing

  • Lex

    Although this will hurt us after the season (since he won’t be a free agent), this is a win for the Yanks.
    1. We keep the young kids.
    2. The Red Sox don’t get Santana.
    3. We only face Santana once or twice a year.

  • http://keephughes.blogspot.com/ Larry

    As the progenitor of the Save Phil Hughes movement, and of course as a supporter of the Save the Big Three initiative, I’d just like to congratulate all of us who were intensely opposed to trading for Santana.

    Mission accomplished!

  • Hollaforskolla

    i find it disgusting the price the mets got him for….ur telling me the yanks couldnt have put togetehr a package of similar talent to that…

    IPK, Marquez, Tabata/Jackson, and horne is better than that bull offer from the mets. Yes its great hes not in boston and blah blah blah but i hate the mets the second most in the league and this pisses me off

    • steve (different one)

      i am sure the Yankees tried numerous non-Hughes packages and the Twins weren’t interested.

      not only that, but i would take the RED SOX offer before the Mets’ offer.

      so it’s not just the Yankees.

      seems to me that the Twins were not interested in trading Johan within the AL.

      seems crazy, but look at what happened. they took an offer that was clearly inferior to the Yankees’ or Sox offers.

      • zack

        Yeah, I would bet thats part of it too, but man alive, they really really settled for less. It makes sense to some degree, but lets b honest, the Twins have a lot more problems than seeing Santana on the Sox or Yankees…

  • David

    Great news. Phil Hughes will be better over the next 7 years than Santana. And about 19 million cheaper for many of those years.

  • zack

    Great, great, great deal for the Mets. Theyhave no farm system, but they never did anyways. Now they have the ace they needed, and he will feast on the NL. The Yanks come in 2nd as winners as they make Smith look like an idiot, see Santana go to the NL, and don’t have to deal with what if’s, as it was Smith who turned down their deal…

    Meanwhile, the Sox still have Coco Crisp and the overvalued Lester :) (well, not really a loss for them either)…

    I still won’t beleive it until Johan signs his name on the contract…

  • Ivan

    Mike (Utica,NY): Would you pay Johan Santana 22-25 million a year and what do you think of the package the twins might get back with Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey, and Humber?

    Rany Jazayerli: I’ve just been informed in the last few minutes that this trade is 99.9% official, and as listed. I’m stunned by this trade, and as a Royals fan, I’m thrilled. You trade the best pitcher in baseball and don’t get a single can’t-miss guy in return? Way to play your cards, Bill Smith. This is great for the Mets, and great for the National League.

    • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Who the hell is Rany Jazayerli?

      • Ivan

        I don’t know but he works for BP.

  • Travis

    I am stunned that is all the Mets could get. I’d hate to be a Twins’ fan, knowing my GM turned down better offers from the Yankees and the Red Sox. Kudos to the Mets!

  • http://myspace.com/lincolnsworld Link

    he will kill in the nl and he will be a media star in ny…the mets desperate for the backpage over the yanks may finally have something going…is livan still available? he would be a good compliment to what they have now and im sure he’d love to be with his brother…

  • NYFan50

    They got way better offers from the Sox & Yanks during the Winter Meetings. They screwed this one up pretty badly.

  • Lou

    Santana is going to post an ERA under 2.30 in the NL.

  • Lanny

    We’ve gone thru it all for 3 months.

    It wasnt worth four high level prospects for a guy you would have to pay full market rate for.

    Especially if the Yanks consider Hughes a 1 or 2 SP.

  • Kevin23

    I’d say everyone involved is a winner. Omar isn’t going to be around by the time he starts sucking, and he’s stoked in the short term. Both the BoSox and Yanks keep from seeing the wrong end of him 5 times a year. The Mets didn’t give up much on opening day and look poised to raise the hell they never did last year on the backs of more pricey veteran starters. Yanks keep the big three. Here’s hoping the great red hope in Boston was a fluke last year. All is right with the world.

    C.C., we’ll need to speak with you after the season.

    • The Scout

      Everyone, perhaps, but the Twins. Smith’s talent evaluation skills will be sharply questioned, and with good reason.

  • Matty

    #
    Larry says:
    January 29th, 2008 at 4:33 pm (Reply)

    As the progenitor of the Save Phil Hughes movement, and of course as a supporter of the Save the Big Three initiative, I’d just like to congratulate all of us who were intensely opposed to trading for Santana.

    Mission accomplished!

    You going to be so happy if the Yanks aren’t in the playoffs and Santana goes 22-6 with a 2.30 ERA this yr?

    I kinda doubt it.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      That’s a huge IF there, buddy.

    • http://keephughes.blogspot.com/ Larry

      Obviously the team’s goal is to get to the playoffs every year, so I’m not going to act like I’d be thrilled about coming up short of a playoff spot.

      That being said, I’d much rather go through the ups and downs of watching a potential future staff ace like Hughes develop in front of my eyes than once again tossing away the future for a supposed can’t-miss ace. Sure, Johan Santana is an amazing pitcher, but no one is worth the cost in players and money that the Yankees were being asked for.

      If the Yanks miss the playoffs this year while some of the young pitchers struggle and Santana has a great year, so be it. I still think we’ll have the last laugh in this when all is said and done.

      Not only that, but as the authors of this site have pointed out time and again, it’s not as if the Yankees have gotten demonstrably worse than they were in 2007. I don’t understand who all of these “sky is falling” Yankee fans are who are convinced the team is going to be terrible in ’08.

      If anything, the team should be better – the rotation’s infinitely stronger than it was going into opening day last year, and unless injuries take their toll again, the team shouldn’t be forced to trot out sub-par minor leaguers to fill the rotation in April and May.

      Additionally, obviously A-Rod and Posada are highly unlikely to duplicate their 2007 campaigns, but they shouldn’t have to if Damon, Abreu and Cano show up to actually play a full season this year. The offense should be just as good if not better than last year.

  • Lanny

    Omar has done here what Cashman refused to do when he was in his final yr. Trade the farm for one guy.

    He obviously cares more about his job than the franchise.

    Then again he gave up 4 C level prospects so I guess he wins.

    • zack

      Of course, the Mets farm wasn’t exactly what I would call loaded before this trade, so giving up 4 so-so prospects won’t kill it. We’ve seen how fast a team with money can retool itself, so if Minyaya were smart, he would take the yanks philosophy and start dealing out the $ in the draft and in two years they could be on their way…

  • Lauren

    I’m going to throw up. The Twins demand all of our top prospects, who also happen to be baseballs biggest prospects, but then they simply accept the Mets throwing their entire shitty farm at them?? Gross. Disgusting. Awful. What a disgrace. Too bad the Mets still have a bad team.

  • Chip

    Yeah Smith is going to get KILLED for this by the media. How do you trade the best pitcher in the league and not get a can’t-miss prospect in return? Phil Hughes straight up is a better deal seeing how the pitchers in this deal might not even see the Twin’s rotation this season due to their insane pitching depth. The fact also remains that nobody knows if Gomez can hit MLB pitching (I think Melky has proven that he can). There must have been a lot of pressure to trade to the NL to justify this screwup

    • Nefarious Jackson

      great point CHIP, I wouldn’t Trade Phil for the mets package of garbage either

  • Ivan

    The only thing that would kind of annoy me a tad bit, is that the twins accepted a deal that the yankees could top without phil hughes.

    I was reading SI about the trade, and the funny part was that they were discussions about swaping Humber for Jorge Sosa in the trade. Tell me that is not funny.

    • YankeeJosh

      Ivan,

      That’s exactly my thught too. I wanted to save the big three and get Johan and looking at what the Twins ended up getting, it’s hard to imagine the Yankees not being able to top it. Horne and Tabata alone is a good starting point I’d think.

  • eric from morrisania

    Not to say that Smith isn’t an idiot for passing on Hughes/Melky for the Mets package, but I can think of one huge, monumental reason why the Twins would prefer the Mets foursome over a similar package headed by IPK… The Mets are in the NL.

    Nobody ever likes to trade superstars, but if you do it’s always smarter to trade them as far away from you as you can. The Twins have serious problems getting past the Sox and Yanks now… how much tougher would it be if they (or we) had Santana in the first round every year?

    • zack

      The Twins have a lot more to worry about in their own division then to care about Santana on the Sox/Yanks. Without Santana, they aren’t winning anything for two years or so, so the trading Santana within the AL thing doesn’t really matter. They’d only see him once or twice during the regular season, and you can’t make a trade based on the potential of the post season.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

        you can’t make a trade based on the potential of the post season.

        Which is exactly why trading for Santana isn’t the best idea either.

        • YankeeJosh

          Ben,

          Are you saying the premise of trading for Santana is faulty? Because given his immense talent and relative young age, I disagree.

          I’m with you about saving the big three and didn’t want to trade Hughes or even Kennedy. It’s just hard for me to believe a Yankees offer of Horne, Tabata, and some other prospects couldn’t have at least been competitive with what the Mets ended up giving up.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

            No, no. The basic premise of trading for Santana is fine. In this case, my issue with the idea of making a trade with an eye for the postseason, as zack said. You can’t make trades based on what’s best for the postseason and only the postseason. The 162 games leading up to the postseason are even more important because you have to win the vast majority of those just to get to the postseason. (Playoffs? Don’t talk about playoffs?)

            I’m also none too thrilled about giving up so many top prospects and money for a pitcher at the same time. In reality, the Twins probably got what they deserved. They’re giving up one year of Santana for four prospects. The Mets are getting one year of Santana for for prospects and a few more years at a lot of money per season.

            • ceciguante

              “You can’t make trades based on what’s best for the postseason and only the postseason. The 162 games leading up to the postseason are even more important because you have to win the vast majority of those just to get to the postseason.”

              maybe for the twins this is true. but i don’t know how you can knock making an acquisition with an eye towards the postseason if you are the yanks. the yanks making the postseason over the past 10 or so years (and as currently constructed) is about as close to a sure thing as there is in sports. if you are the yanks GM and you are NOT trying to make a deal with an eye towards the postseason, then what are you doing, exactly?? working on the 2012 postseason? ignoring this year’s $200M payroll? just gunning for 1000 runs with an all star lineup to watch them choke in october again in front of inferior pitching??

      • The Good Doctor

        WITH Santana the Twins aren’t like to win their division for the next couple of years either. The Tigers have strengthened themselves significantly and there is no reason to believe that the Indians will not be as good or better as last year too.

  • trevor

    Yea, now we are going to have a tough time getting to the 1st round if our big 3 struggle.

    • Smitty

      Come on, seriously? People get so down on this Yankee team for no reason. We lost the AL east by 1 game last year, and by anyone’s account not in the greater new england area, we’ve improved much more than the sox have based purely on the year of maturity of our prospects.

  • Joe

    FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • LBA Prequel

    I think I’ve got it figured out…

    Bill Smith is really Borat’s brother Billo.

    I hope that explains everything about this “trade.”

  • Moose

    I’ll take it one step further…I wouldn’t even trade IPK for that Mets package. This might honestly go down as one of the most lopsided trades in Baseball History. Ironically enough, it will be compared to the “great” trade Minny pulled off when they got Liriano and Nathan for Perzyznki. Ha, seems like Minny just went from Hero to Goat, real quick.

  • Jeff

    This is a big disappointment for me… for years I’ve waited for us to get a crack at landing Santana – the best pitcher in baseball. Well he wound up going to our cross town rivals for practically nothing… Why?
    It’s some on Minny’s fault but Cashman could have tried to sell a package that did not include Hughes. I think there really wasn’t effort there because he didn’t want to dish out the money and if there is one thing he has proven to me is that he’ll pay out of his ass for a bat but when it comes to bettering our pitching he sits on his hands.
    This stinks.

    • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

      It’s some on Minny’s fault but Cashman could have tried to sell a package that did not include Hughes. I think there really wasn’t effort there because he didn’t want to dish out the money and if there is one thing he has proven to me is that he’ll pay out of his ass for a bat but when it comes to bettering our pitching he sits on his hands.
      This stinks.

      Umm…the Twins GM (who I’ll henceforth refer to as “Billo”) wanted to rape the Yankees, and we’re still asking for Hughes and Kennedy+. Are you telling me you think that Cashman made the wrong move by not accepting a lopsided trade when the other side was basically willing to trade for a bag of BP balls?

      The Twins got hosed. I think Cashman was willing to put in the effort (I never questioned that…) if Billo was willing to meet him halfway, especially given the length of time this circus has ensued. Billo blew his chance.

      As far as Cashman being poor on improving the pitching, are you trying to tell me that protecting Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy is detrimental to our pitching…? Because I think logic would like to have a word with you.

      I wanted Santana too, but I also didn’t want to see my Bombers get raked over the coals by Billo, who wanted the Yankees to pay blood money, but was willing to get completely fleeced by the Mets. No way if I’m the Mets do I take quantity over quality when it comes to shipping the best pitcher in baseball. I still bet Kennedy + Melky + Marquez would have been on the table, but Smith was trying to get the Yankees to bite on putting Hughes back on, and they didn’t. Cashman called their (crappy) bluff.

      • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

        *and were still asking for Hughes and Kennedy+.

        *Fixed.

        • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

          *No way if I’m the Twins do I take quantity over quality when it comes to shipping the best pitcher in baseball.

          *Fixed (again).

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      “It’s some on Minny’s fault but Cashman could have tried to sell a package that did not include Hughes.”

      It was pretty clear that this was the Yankees intention. And it’s pretty clear that Minny wanted none of this.

      To blame Cashman for a move another GM made is ridiculous.

  • Moose

    P.S. Joe Nathan was quoted as saying that if Minny doesnt get ML ready players back in return for Santana, he would be “very upset” and considering following Santana out the door. Can anyone say “8th inning solution and Mariano heir?”

    • Realist

      Sign me up for that Moose! I wonder what it would take to get that done? I hope not much as The Twins gave Santana away , so Nathan should be worth a couple of single A prospects at best ;-)

  • YankeeJosh

    Jeff, I agree. I’d go so far as to say I’d have preferred the Yankees to have let A-Rod walk (save his money), brought in a decent player like Lowell or Lamb, and worked a non-Hughes deal for Santana if money were indeed the big obstacle. To me, anyhow, money spent on great pitching is better spent than on great hitting.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      “To me, anyhow, money spent on great pitching is better spent than on great hitting.”

      Look at pitcher injury tendencies.

  • Chip

    I honestly just love seeing him go to the Mets, even when our offer was by far the better. I don’t know about anybody else on this site but I LOVE Kennedy. I feel that he could have a Zito-like (pre-San Fran) career trajectory. His stuff may not blow you away but he’s young, cheap, can give you innings and by the way was the minor league pitcher of the year! I can honestly tell you that I feel Kennedy will have some years in which he’s the obviously better pitcher of the three. That alone is saying something when you have these two juggernaughts in Hughes and Joba.

    I’m just saying that if someone were to tell me that Kennedy was in the top 3 cy young vote getters in the next 5 years I wouldn’t be shocked. I doubt he’ll ever put up the insane numbers to get it but I believe that he’ll be a consistant workhorse for years.

  • Chris

    Wow, this is the second “trade” of this off-season that is objectively terrible for one side. The first was the insane Cabrera move. This isn’t as egregious (because it’s not necessarily the Twins *JUST* dumping salary), but it’s downright terrible for the Twins. I’d fire that GM immediately.

  • mustang

    This was a total joke. The Gm for Twins should be shot. He trade one of the best pitchers in baseball for 3,4,7 best minors in Mets system. Two of kids are under 20 years old and haven’t been pass AA Ball. A .230 AVG. CF and a starter with 4.30 era in the NL. WOW. And yes the Mets are now more then likely the best team in the NL. Which means little because there are at least 4 teams in the AL that are much better then they are and i’m not counting the Yanks. When you think that the Twins GM at one time or another had Hughes,Lester, Elsbury, and Melky on the table this traded is a JOKE.

  • Grant

    Good for the Mets, here’s to a subway series. I am glad he ain’t on Lansdown street, that’s for sure!

  • Jeff

    Prequel- “The Twins wanted to rape us”… or Joseph “its pretty clear that that was our intention” isn’t it the GM’s job perhaps to do a liitle work to sell the other team on the best offer we want to put out. You should go down the line of what the Mets offer and have offered players, even five of them where you can show better stats and ability. We have those guys, much better chips and jack shit got done.
    For those of you who think we made our best effort – did the Twins have an offer on the table with Marquez, Gonzales, Horn, A-jax, Igawa? Did Cash fly down there and deliver his pitch? … I didn’t hear that I just heard the Yanks were out without a contract on the table.
    …Oh I guess going after an ace is not that big of a deal – pitchers get injured… is that the logic? …how about that old saying pitching wins championships? Does that work?
    Look I’m happy to watch Hughes and Joba develope but that could have happend while they work under the Santana… and it should have happened especially when you look at the winning bid.

    • steve (different one)

      if you honestly don’t think the Yankees did their due diligence on this, you are clearly delusional.

      seriously, you sound like such a baby.

    • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

      We have those guys, much better chips and jack shit got done.

      Exactly. Read what you’ve written again.

      You’re saying that the Yankees offer was better and the Twins still wanted more, but were willing to accept less from the Mets.

      They tried to call our (read: Yankees) bluff, and lost.

      For those of you who think we made our best effort – did the Twins have an offer on the table with Marquez, Gonzales, Horn, A-jax, Igawa? Did Cash fly down there and deliver his pitch? … I didn’t hear that I just heard the Yanks were out without a contract on the table.

      How about Cashman’s firstborn too?

      I guess because Cashman didn’t tongue the…ego…of Bill Smith by catering to his whim and handing over Hughes and the rest of our younglings on a silver platter, Cashman = fail?

      Last I heard, the Yankees didn’t want to get raped when the best offers on the table from the competition were Coco Crisp + prospects and the grab-bag-o’-Mets kids. Why should we give up two of our best MLB-ready pitching prospects, our current center fielder, and minor leaguers when we’d still have to sign the contract extension?

      …Oh I guess going after an ace is not that big of a deal – pitchers get injured… is that the logic? …how about that old saying pitching wins championships? Does that work?

      Where did I say I didn’t want Santana? I wanted the Yankees to acquire the “ace” big pitcher.

      I simply think that mortgaging the future for a player who you’ll still have to sign to a huge deal anyways is asinine, especially considering the other offers on the table, which were undeniably lesser.

      Look I’m happy to watch Hughes and Joba develope but that could have happend while they work under the Santana… and it should have happened especially when you look at the winning bid.

      I don’t understand…”While they work under the Santana…”?

      Inquiry: Do you really think that Cashman & the Bros. Steinbrenner would have rejected a trade for Kennedy, Melky, Marquez etc. if the Twins would have bought it? The latest I had heard was that the Twins wanted the Hughes package.

      To quote Austin Powers, that train had sailed about a month ago when Billo wanted to play hardball. Now he’ll have to live with it.

      Are we in a *better* position than we were last year? I don’t know. I don’t think so, if you’re judging position by whether I think we can win a World Series in 2008. Are we good? Yes. Competitive? Yes. With Santana, perhaps we could have won in 2008.

      But think – if Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy even turn out to be a fraction of what Santana is – and that’s a big IF – our rotation still looks solid in the next 3-5 years.

      If we acquired Santana, we’d have our *ace*, but who would we have in 3-5 years?

      Pettitte? Gone (retired).
      Mussina? Gone (retired).
      Chamberlain? Probably in the bullpen.
      Hughes? Gone in the Santana deal.
      Kennedy? See Hughes.
      Wang? Still here.

      So out of the current rotation, we’d have 1 guy still left, assuming Joba moves to the ‘pen. That doesn’t mean Horne, Marquez, etc. won’t become MLB quality pitchers, but what the Big 3 have right now doesn’t seem to come along every day. It’s something special. I’m not saying they’ll all be HoF’ers; the odds are against that.

      But getting raped by the Yankees does this team no good in 3-5 years, especially when the price tag is so egregious for our team but so little for others.

  • bart

    If the brsain trust wouldn’y deal for Santana why would they make a deal for Nathan — the asking price would be nearly as high.

    This is stupid GMship – doesn’t matter if it is baseball or selling peanut oil — you have be at the top of your industry — you use your resources to stay at the top — Hughes and Kennedy are as much acrap shoot as any phenom starting pitcher – Santana was the proven real deal.

    If th Yankees do not play up to competitive standards for any reason they will over react — a long history of that — we will get the second coming of Wright, pavano, LaPointe, — nebish to be named later – and they wil deal Hughes, IPK, and prospects — as penalty for the sin of arrogance — believing thast the rookie RH is more important than the proven LH — we wil now enter 10 years of dark ages — Steinbrenner wil go to his heavely reward without witnessing another Yankee play-off game. In a series of rebuilding efforts the Yankees wil move Jeter from SS to 1B or OF. ARod will never again hit 50 HRs, he wail ask for a Trade to the Tigers to play for a GM who knows how to make dals and keep his team competitive. Cashman does not make the deal because he is a street sweeper in Brooklyn.

    • steve (different one)

      why don’t you save yourself the trouble and just stop rooting for the Yankees right now?

      we won’t miss you.

    • Nefarious Jackson

      a little upset there ‘bart’?

    • The Good Doctor

      This response is WAY overboard. Sure, a worst case scenario can be worked out for anything. Cashman could have dealt the future for Santana, and mortgaged the farm to pay him for the next 7 years and he could blow out his arm out in spring training and never pitch for the Yankees. Many will crunch numbers and cite Santana’s deteriorating stats to demonstrate why Cashman should have known Santana was a risk. He will be blamed for ruining the franchise and many will call for his head to roll. (Not far-fetched, it HAS happened before).
      Let’s face it, it would be nice to have Santana on the team. But for key prospects and $20 – 25 mm a year. I don’t see how you can say it’s a bad deal made by a dumb GM. Frankly, I think he played it beautifully. He made the BoSox up their bid until they realized, wait, this is crazy, get Lester off the table! And then, once the whole thing started breaking down on the Twinkies, they have no choice but to deal Santana to the NL where he is safely out of our hair.

  • Colter

    “Billo” is ok, but what about “Billked”?

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    I turned on ESPN, and they had the deal up on the screen…

    Mets get:
    P Johan Santana

    Twins get:
    OF Carlos Gomez
    P Phil Humber
    P Deolis Guerra
    P Kevin Mulvey

    …then it hit me: what the hell is Bill Smith thinking?!?! Holy crap. That’s got the potential to be a franchise crippling deal.

    So does this mean we don’t ever have to talk about Johan again? Like ever?

  • Ivan

    Mike A.

    I was on Espn.com just now listening to Peter Gammons about the trade and said this that just had me like, “you gotta be kidding me” expression.

    He was ofcourse talking about the prospects in the Johan deal and he said a startling fact, Humber is 25 YEARS OLD WITH A LOSING RECORD IN THE MINORS.

    I was like whoa. Humber and Mulvey are not even better than Horne.

  • Ivan

    The only guy I like in that deal is Guerra who has alot potential. But then again while I like Guerra as a prospect, is he that better than Betances?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Betances has a higher ceiling, Guerra is closer to the bigs (but still years away).

  • steve (different one)

    the thing I don’t get is why the Twins didn’t take the Sox package.

    i mean, good thing they didn’t, but if the Sox had Ellsbury/Lowrie on the table how is the Mets’ offer even close to that?

    the Twins had to be looking to send him to the NL.

    it’s the only reasonable explanation.

  • Jeff

    Steve pitching in my mind is the greatest determinant of a winning team. I think we failed in this one and if that makes me a baby so be it.
    Unlike Bart I think A-Rod will hit 50 HRs I do think Jeter wil be alright manning short for a while…its not all doom and gloom but I think its BS that these guys have to put up seven runs a night to win games. I hope Phil pitches better, I hope Joba is a lights out starter (not 8th inning man which is prob going to happen) but I think with the innings limitations and weak pen will put a lot of pressure on the offense. Santana would have been such a boost plus I love watching a 1-0 game where you win.
    Yeah I guess I’m delusional because I’m one of the few on this site that thinks Cash has no ability to sway the other side. Do you really think with the offer I listed above or something similar or better with IPK, maybe Bentacles… would have been turned down in favor of the Mets deal?… sorry but that is far crazier than what I said. I don’t think we had an offer on the table because Cash stinks.

    • http://lbaprequel.xesf.net/ LBA Prequel

      Do you really think with the offer I listed above or something similar or better with IPK, maybe Bentacles… would have been turned down in favor of the Mets deal?… sorry but that is far crazier than what I said. I don’t think we had an offer on the table because Cash stinks.

      Yes. I think it would have, because it was. I firmly believe Kennedy, Melky, Marquez, and either Ajax/Tabata was on the table, and the Twins wanted that and then some (read: Hughes). And I think that if you think that the Twins weren’t trying to hornswaggle the Yankees into giving up the farm (pun intended) and played (bad) poker with Cashman, then you’re delusional my good sir.

    • steve (different one)

      ok, so now we can just make up packages and assume the Twins would have accepted them, and then criticize Cashman for not making said fictional trade?

      seriously, get a grip.

      only someone with an agenda would honestly believe that the Yankees didn’t explore every way to make this happen. seriously, have you not been listening to the raging hardon that Hank has for Santana? do you not think he didn’t order Cashman to try everything possible short of trading Hughes?

      remember when they were shopping Matsui? maybe that was Cashman trying to make this happen creatively without trading Hughes. you don’t know.

      the bottom line is that you don’t know SHIT about what goes on behind the scenes, so all of your “trade proposals” just sound like someone whining because he didn’t get his way.

  • steve (different one)

    look, i understand being frustrated. and i understand if you felt Cashman should have traded Hughes and Melky for Santana. i disagree, but it’s a debatable point. and i can understand if you just think that was the right move.

    but blaming Cashman for some sort of lack of effort is just wierd and crazy. you sound like Lombardi.

    think about it. they’ve been talking about Santana for TWO MONTHS. we all have. EVERY DAY.

    i am satisfied that the Yankees did their due diligence here.

  • CB

    That the twins didn’t take the Red Sox deal tells you everything. They were either going to get the deal done completely on their terms with the Yanks or Sox or they were going to send him to the NL and just accept what they could get.

    The red sox package is better than the mets but not what the twins watned so they just took what the mets offerred. That Omar didn’t even have to give up Fernando Martinez is amazing.

    Bill Smith worked with Terry Ryan for years. Ryan was very good at identifying very specific young talent to go after when trading his veterans.

    I think it became very clear over the course of this process that the one player Bill Smith absolutely loved was Phil Hughes. He didn’t think ellsbury or lester were special enough to trade Santana in the division. Only Hughes would have gotten him to pull the trigger on sending Santana to another AL team.

    I think all of this posturing with the sox and the mets that went on for so long was to get the yankees to cave and give up hughes along with other talent that could spread the twins risk.

    In the end Smith gave up on hughes because he was too scared to pull off the deal inside the AL and only get Hughes back with melky, etc. I’d guess he was frightened off by the idea that Hughes could get hurt/ not pan out. Then Hughes got taken off the table while Smith was indecisive.

    What an awful move by Smith. He could have gotten Hughes but he completely misread teh market. He wasn’t bold enough to take the risk for the talent he wanted when he had the chance.

  • Jeff

    Well I’m less likely to believe that the GM of the Twins would turn down a package of IPK, Ajax, Melky Marquez, Gonzales/Igawa than choosing what they got from the Mets… I just think the Yanks didn’t pursue their best offer in the final hours when the price tag obviously dropped. I think Cashman missed the boat because he doesn’t want to expand the payroll which is already bloated cause of all the shitty contracts he hands out.
    Again you guys admit that Smith took a shit trade… Its pretty easy to see right? Why do you think he would do that? Poker and lost is no explanation to me. I think a better alternative was not there at the end. If you want to say we could’t have beaten the Mets offer without Hughes well… Calling me delusional however, is a bit much pal.

    • steve (different one)

      I think a better alternative was not there at the end. If you want to say we could’t have beaten the Mets offer without Hughes well… Calling me delusional however, is a bit much pal.

      ok, but that’s not what i was objecting to.

      i was objecting to this notion that you think Cashman didn’t even look into other possibilities. that he let this happen because of a lack of effort.

      that’s silly.

      just because he didn’t “fly down there” today with a last ditch offer doesn’t mean they haven’t been discussing things for weeks. it doesn’t really mean that Cashman didn’t know exactly what the Twins’ demands were. it also doesn’t mean that Cashman’s “final offer” would not have been taken back to the Red Sox for their “final offer” and then BACK to the Yankees, until Hughes was back on the table.

      it seem to me, that AT THE LEAST, the Red Sox were going to stay in this thing until they either either kept the Yankees from getting Santana, or if the they did get him, make them give up Hughes.

      that’s been the deal for weeks now.

  • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

    it seems in my humble opinion that Bill Smith was going to fleece an AL team or get whatever he could from the NL. both the Sawx and Yanks offers were better. when Smith realized he couldn’t pry away Hughes or Lester AND Ellsbury, he caved for the Mets. his biggest mistake was not just accepting a Hughes deal when he thought he could get Kennedy also (or Ellsbury wo Lester too – imo a bad move for the Sawx). he got greedy and ended up with considerably less.

    that Minaya didn’t have to give up FMart and/or Heilman, Pelfrey is a win for them. dont blame Cashman, if Smith couldn’t get a great prospect (Hughes/Lester/Ellsbury), he would just trade him out of the league to be safe. but still a bad trade for Minny. no Heilman, Pelfrey or Fmart?!

  • The Good Doctor

    Has it occured to anybody that neither the Yankees or the Red Sox really wanted Santana? I mean, at least at the price they would have to pay to get him. Did it occur that these two VERY savvy franchises ended up playing the Twins like a fiddle? Let’s face it, clearly the Red Sox and the Yankees both had the players to make the deal happen if they wanted to make it happen. Either team could have beaten the Mets offer without breaking a sweat if they really wanted to, but they didn’t.
    The offers that they each reportedly made were disingenuous. First, Hank makes a tremendous offer (Hughes, Melky, etc.), but gives a ridiculous deadline by which the Twins have to accept it. He knew they wouldn’t/couldn’t accept the deadline. Meanwhile, it keeps the BoSox in the hunt, so they talk about Lester and Ellsbury, but that offer too is disingenuous. And in the end, they were reported to have taken the best parts of their reported offers off the table.
    The Yankees only wanted to keep Santana out of Boston and the Red Sox wanted to make sure he didn’t go to the Bronx and the only way either one was actually going to pull the trigger on the deal was if the other was really, truly, honestly about to make a real deal for Santana. Neither team wanted him at the price they’d have to pay. Both would have given up big time MLB ready, INEXPENSIVE, young players to land Santana, then turn around and pay him $20 – 25 mil a year. The Bosox already have the second highest payroll at $150 mm or so and the Yankees the highest at over $200 mm. Neither wanted to add to that if they didn’t have to. I mean, how much more can they charge for a beer anyway??? But seriously, it was all a game that Cashman and Epstein played masterfully and Smith could only sit back and learn from. IMHO.

  • Paul

    IDK about any of you, but when I’m spending a shitload of money just to watch a Yankee game from descent seats, and now I hear that the Yankees didn’t make a deal because of money I get pretty annoyed.

    • steve (different one)

      so stop paying.

      the fact that you continue to pay higher and higher prices tells me that ticket prices have nothing to do with payroll and everything to do with demand.

  • Jeff

    It has occured to me that the Yankees really didn’t go after Santana – that is what’s so irritating. Good lineups get beat by good pitchers and if the Yanks want to save their dollars for A-Rod’s HR Record so be it… but I think getting a dominante ace would have been worth the cost.
    And with that I’m done arguing my stance. Go Yankees! Let’s hope Santana’s arm falls off and Hughes wins 18-20 games this year.

    • steve (different one)

      i agree, go yanks.

      seriously, this has been 2 months of debate on one topic all coming to a head tonight, and so the opinions are naturally heated.

      we are all on the same side here. apologies for all the anger.

      just think how we’d be reacting if we were Twins’ fans.

    • The Good Doctor

      This is just one of the many reason why we love this game!!!

      Now, will the pitchers and catchers please report already!!! I’m ready to WATCH some baseball!!!

      Go Yankees!!!!!

  • Pingback: River Ave. Blues » A Johan Santana post-mortem

  • Pingback: River Ave. Blues » Cashman playing an intense game of chess