Jun
11

Open Thread: C.C. inching toward the market

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The Cleveland Indians have been a hot topic of conversation these days. The team — expected to win the Central — is 30-35, three games worse than the mediocre Yankees. They’re 7.5 games out of first in the Central and facing the same deficit in the Wild Card race.

So of course talk will turn to C.C. Sabathia. The Indians are a long shot to sign Sabathia when the big lefty hits free agency this winter, and Mark Shapiro, the GM in Cleveland, will soon test the Sabathia market. The Yankees — long rumored to be the ultimate destination for Carsten Charles — are sure to be in on the talks, and the Cubs, Dodgers and Red Sox will probably do more than kick the tires on this one.

Earlier today, PeteAbe pondered the Sabathia situation, and he offered up his take:

They have the inventory (as Brian Cashman likes to call it) to make a deal. At this point, who is untouchable in their system?

This would be my untouchable list: Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero, Phil Hughes, Andrew Brackman and Mark Melancon

Other than that, have at ‘em.

After his first four poor outings, Sabathia has been nothing short of dominant. In 73.1 innings, covering 10 starts, he has allowed 63 hits and 14 walks while striking out 73. His ERA over that span is a meager 2.09, and opponents are hitting .235/.278/.336.

So here’s my question as we await another 10 p.m. start tonight. What do you do with Sabathia? Who would you give up in a trade for this pitcher? If the Yanks acquire the lefty, they’ll probably attempt to hack out a contract extension at the trade deadline rather than in October, and Sabathia could be a difference-maker in the American League East.

Categories : Open Thread
  • patrick

    I agree that a deal should be explored but I would not deal Cano and I would look to keep Sabathia instead of let him go at the end of the year as peteabe suggests. I would give them Kennedy, Melky and Horne (hopefully he stays healthy and progresses) and move Gardner to center and see what happens.

    • TurnTwo

      i honestly dont think the Indians would want any part of Melky.

      • steve (different one)

        agreed. Melky isn’t really a corner OFer, and i think they have CF covered.

  • TurnTwo

    i personally agree with PeteAbe’s untouchable list, and go from there.

    they want Cano? then thats about all they get.

    they want a package of players? you can start with IPK and Tabata.

    • Chip

      I was just about to say the same thing. I’d start trying IPK and Marquez and then eventually settle for IPK, Tabata and Marquez. Maybe we could be nice to Britton and put him in there somewhere but I’d hate to give up such a good reliever (not that we ever use him) just to give him up

    • TurnTwo

      but i do think the yankees can guarantee themselves a playoff push with CC in the rotation.

      Sabathia, Wang, Pettitte, Joba, and a rejuvinated Moose? Rasner the long man out of the pen.

      looks good to me.

      • Chip

        Where is Hughes in that situation? AAA??

        • Joey H

          OR let joba go back to the pen and in spring training start him as a starter from the get go. so CC wang pettite moose and hughes . farnsy-joba-mo, they’re gonna want olendofr and kennedy probably and maybe alberto gonzalez. so yeah

          • nmc

            You can’t do that. If you ever want him to start, he needs to up his innings. He’s not going to do that by going back to the pen. It’s AAA or MLB starts. I prefer MLB.

            Personally, I wouldn’t give up the farm. He’s ours if we want him at the end of the season, and I’m not so sure he’s that much of an upgrade over what we’ve got (considering Wang, Pettitte, and Phil pitch at least what they *can* pitch).

            What we’d need is an impact bat now. Maybe trading Melky plus IPK solves that by bringing up Gardner. I don’t know. Depends on the offer, but I wouldn’t give up the farm just for the pitching. Oh, and I’d need a guarantee that he signs.

            • Chip

              Gardner is not an impact bat, he’s a slap hitter, not somebody to be feared

            • JeterMack Clutch

              i think he meant joba to the pen for teh hypothetical playoffs after his innings cap is met

    • steve (different one)

      really?

      how is Mark Melancon untouchable but Cano isn’t?

      • RollingWave

        because the grass on the on side of the fence ifs made of puer silver and lined with diamonds ;)

      • TurnTwo

        you can find 2nd basemen a lot easier than you can front of the rotation starting pitchers.

        if thats what they want, i’m open to the idea.

        and as a whole, i agree with PeteAbe, but if they insisted on Mark Melancon, i’m not going to let him be a complete deal breaker. but then its a more difficult negotiation, and you prob pull back Cano from that deal.

  • JT

    Is every just assuming that Pettite is going to get things back in order??

  • Stevo

    I followed the entire back and forth on Pete Abe’s blog earlier today, and I came away with one main point after all the back and forth. I don’t believe that it’s worth it to give up some of our potentially great players, for a guy who is becoming a free agent in a few months.
    That’s why I’d keep Cano (and some of the other high-ceilinged guys); if we’re so desperate to trade him (which we’re not), I’d rather get something that I otherwise wouldn’t be able to get after the season.

    • Steve

      Bingo. You can just wait until next year and sign him in the off season.

      • Chip

        That only works if nobody else trades for him as well. It’s not like we could just wait for Santana and sign him in the off season which could be what happens with CC.

        • Steve

          Or if he’s not willing to sign an extension, which is a huge factor in all of this.

          • Chip

            Very true

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    For the same reasons I did not want to acquire Johan Santana via trade are the same reasons I do not want to acquire C.C. Sabathia via trade. I do not believe in trading young, blue-chip, cost controlled talent for a 72-hour negotiating window.

    I am actually of the belief that Sabathia will sustain his dominance longer than Santana because hes repertoire speaks to that in my opinion. Johan Santana has become basically a Fastball, Changeup pitcher and we’ve already been granted a window into his future pitching as such with a declining velocity. After giving up an American League worst 33Hrs last season he has given up 12HRs in the National League, four shy off the bottom three in the league. He plays in a pitcher’s park, Shea Stadium.

    Sabathia on the other hand averages a Fastball at just under 93-MPH with a velocity averaged out at 92.9-MPH. Among Major League starters that average a Fastball 93-MPH or better, Sabathia has the second lowest percentage of Fastballs thrown at 58.0% (Edison Volquez, 56.6%). So that means even though he has one of the top heaters in baseball he still throws his Slider, Changeup and Curveball nearly as much as he delivers the heater. So at this point I can reasonably assume that Sabathia has better stuff than Santana and at this point Sabathia has a steeper drop to mediocrity than the Mets’ Johan Santana. In 2006 Johan Santana’s heater averaged 93.1-MPH, in 2008 thus far it is averaging 91.2-MPH. His stuff is declining at quite honestly an odd rate considering his age.

    Now back to the original question, I would still not trade blue-chip prospects for a two month rental of C.C. Sabtahia and a 72-hour negotiating window. In my opinion it just does not make good baseball sense. Fiscally it is just irresponsible when you consider both the quantity and quality of the players we would need to give up.

    • Ivan

      Agreed.

    • http://sport.newsvine.com Adam

      “I would still not trade blue-chip prospects”

      I agree, which is why you have the untouchable list. But at this point are guys like IPK and Tabata really blue chippers? Even when IPK was dominating the minors last year he was seen as a #3 pitcher at best. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but look long term, is there a place for IPK with the Yankees? There is no doubt in my mind that Joba, Hughes and Wang remain better major league pitchers than IPK. That leaves IPK as the 4th starter at best, and in the short term I’d rather have Sabbathia than IPK. And looking even long term, guys like Brackman, Cole and McAllister will probably be better than IPK.

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Jamal:

      We wouldn’t be “trading young, blue-chip, cost controlled talent for a 72-hour negotiating window.” We’d be trading 3-4 young, quality but not necessarily blue chip talent (maybe one of the 3-4 total prospects would be blue chip) for a 72-hour negotiating window AND 2-plus months of one of the best young pitchers in baseball for our stretch pennant run and World Series push AND the inside track on securing an extension.

      Remember, just because we have a window to hammer out an extension doesn’t mean that if we don’t get the extension in that 72 hours that Sabathia will walk. Look at our teams over the last decade and a half and remember how many of them resigned in Novembers on the eve of filing deadlines. Come November, the only thing more attractive to free agent to be C.C. Sabathia than a hefty contract offer from the Yankees is a hefty contract offer from the Yankee team that he just went through a thrilling postseasson battle with.

      Trading for him now increases our chances of signing him in the offseason substantially.

  • Mike W.

    I would go with his untouchables plus Cano. And then, I would only make a deal involving whomever else, IF we get the 48 hour window to sign him. Why would we give up anyone to get 3 months of CC? Even with CC, is this team, as currently constituted a definite world champion? Absolutely not.

  • Steve

    I’m sorry, but I just don’t give up a Dan Haren style package (who was signed cheap for 2 years) for HALF a season of CC. Considering his salary demands, I think a package significantly less than what the Twins got for Johan (a better pitcher/full season) is more likely.

    Don’t forget, that when your talking about a guy who will command 20 mil annually your prospective list of serious buyers is limited. If you’re only trading him for this season (He won’t agree to an extension) then as a GM you have even less of a bargaining position. I don’t see him commanding a big package.

    Kennedy, and a few solid B prospects. Not only is it fair market value, but I think it will be the best offer on the table. It’s either a rental, or a rental with a HUGE extension. Both dampen his trade value. Shapiro knows this, and this is why he’s looking to do this deal sooner rather than later. The longer he waits, the fewer buyers he could wind up with.

    Remember how little Abreu went for? Why did that happen? Because he was overpaid and the Yanks were the only serious bidder. There are very few teams that can hand out 20 mil contracts, even less who will give one to a pitcher who weigh about 300 pounds.

    I like PA as a blogger, but I’m glad he’s not our GM.

    • Chip

      Kennedy/Tabata isn’t nearly what the Twin’s got for Santana. Gomez obviously is a much better talent than Tabata and was major league ready while Kennedy isn’t much better or better at all than Humber. I’d also say that Mulvey is better than most of the prospects we’d throw in plus they got some 18 year old kid.

      Look, Melky might not be playing wonderfully right now but he’s proven to be a league average CF at a young age which is impressive in itsself but why would the Indians want him anyway? They already have a pretty good centerfielder over there who does everything but throw better than Melky. I can understand their interest in Cano but for all the people throwing him under the bus don’t understand that there’s NOBODY to replace him. We’d probably spend the rest of the season either watching Alberto or Betemit there (although I’d argue putting Jeter at second and Alberto at short but that’s another argument). We need Cano for his defense as much as his bat, which will come around eventually.

      For those of you worried about money, is Carl Pavano currently really hurting us that much? Was it some huge albatross contract that is killing the Yankees? Of course not, we have millions coming off the books this offseason. Hell, Pettite is getting 16 mil a season, so signing CC to a 20 per season contract is like having Pettite plus Krazy Kyle. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

      I’d like to point out I’m a HUGE Kennedy fan and it’s tough to advocate trading him but he’s not really that young of a guy, doesn’t have great stuff and wouldn’t have a place in the rotation anyway if we get CC. It’ll be tough enough getting Hughes in there when he comes back the way Mussina and Rasner are pitching.

      That brings me to my next thought, would they be interested in Rasner?
      The guy isn’t exactly young but is pitching his ass off this year so why not?

      • Steve

        “Kennedy/Tabata isn’t nearly what the Twin’s got for Santana. Gomez obviously is a much better talent than Tabata and was major league ready while Kennedy isn’t much better or better at all than Humber. I’d also say that Mulvey is better than most of the prospects we’d throw in plus they got some 18 year old kid.”

        Both I and the minor league stats couldn’t disagree with you more. Gomez is Melky’s bat with more range in CF. IPK is so superior to Humber its not even worth discussing. Humber has an ERA of 5.5 in AAA and at 26 is barely a prospect anymore. Mulvey is having a mediocre year in AAA, and Guerra can’t throw strikes in A+.

        That was a GARBAGE package the Twins got for Johan.

        Check out each players stats.

        http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....atsId=8023
        http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....mber.shtml
        http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....erra.shtml
        http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....lvey.shtml

      • Steve

        Both I and the minor league stats couldn’t disagree with you more. Gomez is Melky’s bat with more range in CF. IPK is so superior to Humber its not even worth discussing. Humber has an ERA of 5.5 in AAA and at 26 is barely a prospect anymore. Mulvey is having a mediocre year in AAA, and Guerra can’t throw strikes in A+.

        That was a GARBAGE package the Twins got for Johan.

        Check out each players stats.

        http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....atsId=8023
        http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....mber.shtml
        http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....erra.shtml
        http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....lvey.shtml

        • Chip

          Humber’s peripherals look decent in AAA the season before he was traded, I’m looking only at the numbers pretrade because that’s all they had to go on at the time, and Mulvey was doing well as a 22 year old in AA. Gomez is Melky’s bat if Melky was really really fast.

          • Chip

            BTW, I’d also take Melky in a straight up trade for Tabata any day of the week. Melky is a proven commodity which is more valuable than someone who might one day make it which is why we can’t just trade Brackman for CC straight up. That’s why Gomez is much better trade bait than Tabata

      • steve (different one)

        Kennedy is 23. tough crowd.

      • A.D.

        I’d argue IPK is def better than Humber, Humber has an ERA over 5 in AAA this year, so basically Marquez, IPK has dominated AAA thus far in his time there

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Peter Abraham just had a serious brain cramp. Why would you trade for C.C. Sabathia and just let him walk in the off-season? You are basically trading “X” amount of players and their respective talents for two draft picks that you have no way of knowing what said draft picks will net you come next June. So he wants Brian Cashman, with a deep pocketed owner, to trade blue-chip prospects for an ace southpaw and just let him walk to gain two draft picks. What sense does that make?

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    I say just wait to the offseason, then sign him AND keep your players. I’d have no issues at all with forfeiting a first round pick for CC.

    • Steve

      I wouldn’t mind a rental for the right price. I’d like to see if CC likes pitching here before I hand him a big FA deal. There have been questions as to whether or not he’s a NY type player. Some say he’s very quiet, shy and has even been quoted as being less than enthused about playing here.

      The last thing we need is a big FA signing bust. We’ve had enough of those in recent years.

      • Chucky

        great point here, for the right price there is nothing wrong with a rental!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    I also don’t appreciate how Peter Abraham added Robinson Cano into the “touchable” list. Outside of starting pitching there is no other commodity in baseball that is more valuable than a slugging bat that plays a middle-of-the-diamond position (C, 2B, SS, CF) at age 25 and under. Not only Cano’s offense at 2B but I could easily, easily argue his defense at 2B is on par or better with any 2B in the Major Leagues.

    Have some perspective there Mr. Abraham.

    • Chip

      Agreed, that’s just not smart

    • Mike W.

      I would trade Cano very easily in a deal for a young dominant pitcher (someone like Lincecum, Kazmir, Kershaw- just examples)

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

        That is why I said “Outside of starting pitching…”.

        • Mike W.

          I wasn’t trashing your post. Just commenting. lol

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

            LoL, I wasn’t saying anything negative to you. I was agreeing with you. I would trade Robbie Cano in a heartbeat for those guys you mentioned as well.

            • tommiesmithjohncarlos

              But Jamal, you’re saying that it’s a bad idea to not make Cano untouchable because “Outside of starting pitching there is no other commodity in baseball that is more valuable than a slugging bat that plays a middle-of-the-diamond position”…

              …umm, isn’t this thread about making a trade for Starting Pitching? Sabathia is a starter, no? So, if Sabathia is more valuable than Cano, position wise (your own direct words), how is it illogical to consider trading the less-valuable Cano for the more valuable Sabathia?

              For the record, I would make Cano untouchable (I think he’ll snap out of his slump), but your argument here doesn’t make much sense.

    • JeterMack Clutch

      I think Abraham is a little emotional when it came to trading cano. he is upset that he is not playing to the back of his card

  • E-ROC

    It’s cool that the Yanks have signed the switch pitching Patrick Venditte. Uh, are u allowed to switch pitch during the game?

    I have a problem with giving pitchers contracts north of $100 million. It just almost never works out. I would much rather trade for a younger starting pitcher who is under a cheap contract.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      He signed, and yes he can switch pitch.

      • Mike W.

        I thought I read somewhere this week that you must stick with the arm that you were pitching with when the batter was announced, meaning, I think I read, that if he were pitching with the right arm, and the batter that was announced was say, a switch hitter, the pitcher could not then face him pitching lefty if the batter chose to hit from the left side. Also, if a pinch hitter ( a lefty) was brought in, the pitcher could not then switch his pitching side to match.

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Yes and no. Before every at bat, both the pitcher and the hitter have to basically “declare” whether they intend to pitch/hit righty or lefty. I don’t think you actually have to tell the ump, it’s just, if you stand in the lefty box you’re a lefty and if you throw from the right side you throw righty, etc. During the at bat, you can’t switch.

          But, if Venditte was scheduled to face a lefty hitter and they called him back and put in a righty, Venditte can absolutely switch sides BEFORE THE FIRST PITCH. Once the pitch is thrown, then the handedness matchups must remain the same. And, with switch hitters, the batter has to get in a box and once the pitcher is set, he can’t change his mind, so Venditte would be able to just allow the hitter to pick whatever side he wants and then throw against his preference…

      • m

        Does he have an ambidextrous glove? How’s that work?

  • zack

    The next few months are going to be like the offseason all over again, with the Sox and Yankees “battling it out” for headlines made up by the media about different packages. In fact, its already started as i swore I saw an article about how the Sox are offering a package centering around the “future star” Masterson.

    Just remember, the Yankees “prospects” are probably about at their lowest possible value right now. Cano, Melky, Kennedy, Hughes, Horne, Tabata–all of them have had majorly disappointingly first half’s, that, right or wrong, have raised serious questions about their status as legit prospects (total bogus, but this is the media and perception we are talking about here)…

    On the other hand, the Sox prospects are probably about at their highest hyped value. Masterson has pitched well in three or so starts and is now a “future star,” despite minor league numbers that suggest otherwise. Lowrie, building off his offseason hype that somehow turned him into a future star, came up for a cup of coffee and did well. Lester threw a perfect game and has been far less inconsistent thus far. And of course the hype machine continues to churn out blue chip prospects out of thin air.

    All of this to say that the chances are far higher that the Sox can put together a package for CC than the Yanks, a package that will undoubtedly seem heinously weak compared to what the Yankees were rumored to have offered. And of course, a Sox headed by CC, Beckett, and Dice-K is pretty damn nasty…

    Call it unfair, call it the product of ESPN, but its all simply the fact that in these ridiculously small samples, the Sox “prospects” have outperformed the Yanks “prospects” thus far. Doesn’t mean they are better or have a brighter future, but it does mean a hell of a lot when it comes to trade packages…

    Though i would like to think Shapiro is smart enough to see through the hype…

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Well said.

    • chris

      the sox were bluffing on th4 johan deal and they are bluing on this. dice-k has tuned into a legit number 2 – a 1 on most teams – lester is a perfet 3, their young stud (sorry cnt remember hi name) is a future number 1, i saw him pitch pool against the yanks and still thought he had great stuff and dont forget schilling and masterson,

      the so will be looking for offense as ortiz’s better years are behind him.

      that being said i am shocked that everone was so concerned about trading fo johan but is willing to take an out of shape pitcher and gice him 200 milllion. i guess reading stats about a pitcher (hughes and IPK) is a lot different then watching them pitch. the yanks know the screwed up on the joham deal and ae now backtracking their plans for a pitcher who is not on the same universe as santana

  • L

    I have to say that I’m not too attached to IPK…i just don’t see him succeeded in the majors. I’ll probably be proven wrong in a few years but the chances of him being great are so slim considering his stuff. I would not be upset to see IPK, Marquez and Tabata traded for sabathia…i think that would be a steal. Tabata is a little b**** and Marquez has not been able to duplicate his success that he had last year. That would have to be the best deal out there and the yanks will no doubt then be able to sign sabathia long term. I would love that to happen

    • Ivan

      Hey that’s way to harsh to call Tabata a bitch.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Tune into the Mets game, Arizona’s Max Scherzer will be pitching in the bottom half of the sixth inning.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Screw that, Mighty Matt is pitching against Scranton!

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Scherzer’s got two different color eyes. Freak.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

        Dave Dombrowski traded away Adam Miller in a package for Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. Miller is currently holding that Phillies offense to one run over seven innings, Cabrera has been less productive at the plate than Johnny Damon and the D-Train has crashed and burned. Idiot.

        I kid about Cabrera.

        • Ivan

          You mean Andrew Miller not Adam Miller of the Indians.

          Plus, Miller ERA is over 5.

          Nevertheless, I always thought Willis was overrated but man talk about a guy falling off.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

            Yes, thanks. He still has #1 stuff and is a LHP which always seems to be a plus.

      • Manimal

        like the guy from espn? Imagine those 2 eyes starring at you just inbetween the rim of the hat and the glove(pettite esque)

  • Dave

    To all the people that say “just wait and sign him in the offseason,” there’s a very very good chance that when someone else trades for him, they will sign him to an extension.

  • Jake H

    I have to agree with Mike A. I would rather give up on draft picks then guys who are a lot closer. I also think it’s too early to think that Indians might not be close to the race. They ave 2 good weeks of being in it.

  • Steve

    Lets also look and see if were a matching trade partner before we even get into this.

    Looking quickly at the Tribe roster, it looks like they need a 2B, LF, RF, and some bullpen help. I think they have some young starters they like, so they might not be looking to replace CC in this deal.

    OK, we match up nicely. Here’s my deal. IPK, D-Rob and either Melky or Brett Gardner. Whoever stays plays CF for us this year. That might even be overpaying.

    • Chip

      So they need 2B, LF, RF and RP so you offer SP, RP and CF?

      • Steve

        I’ve never seen Melky as a long term CF. I think he’s much better fielder in either of the corner spots. Gardner’s listed as LF/CF.

        And I said I’m not sure about whether they’d want a starter or not, so I’ll just assume they do. CC’s a big loss, and Carmona is on the DL. You never have enough starters.

  • Manimal

    If and ONLY if some other team is willing to try to send valuable rookies for a half season of CC sabathia, I say yes. They yankees need an ace with a little pow and alttitude. CMW is not the answer. Maybe Joba, maybe not. Its too early to tell. That means we have the potential for 3 aces. 3 aces, 3 languages, how bout that.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      I’m curious to know what the 3 different languages are. CC’s a California boy.

      • Steve

        English, Taiwanese and Spanglish.

      • http://yankeesfuture.wordpress.com Pablo Zevallos

        (my guess) CMW–Taiwanese, C.C.–English, Joba–Native American language from his tribe

      • Manimal

        really? I thought he was spanish-speaking. Never heard him talk really.

        • Steve

          Which is one reason why some people think he won’t like NY.

          • tommiesmithjohncarlos

            Huh? what is the reason people think he won’t like NY? I’m confused.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Jorge Cantu – 2.
    Philadelphia Phillies – 1.

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

    Jamal:

    To play devil’s advocate for a second, what do you do with the farm system then? One of the benefits of building up a strong farm system is to turn that into proven Major League talent. Not everyone prospect will work out; in fact, the vast majority won’t, and at some point, a Major League GM has to recognize who to trade when and for what.

    So what do you do if you don’t want to give up some young talent for one of the best pitchers in the AL, albeit for two months and a contract extension window?

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

      That’s a difficult question for someone in my position to answer because like any person outside of the Yankees organization I have no idea how they view their players. I don’t know if they project Jose Tabata and Jesus Montero the same way John Manuel and Kevin Goldstein do. So I can’t answer your question completely because it is not a matter of me not wanting to deal the players entirely but rather a combination of that and me being handicapped by not having the information and knowledge the Yankees have of their prospects. The amount of information the public is aware of is just nothing near what the Yankees have access to.

      The reason for me not wanting to trade young talent for just that negotiating window is because I have the philosophy that the risks of trading young, blue-chip prospects away for a player who is in his walk year are greater than the risks that include waiting for a player in his walk year to hit the free agent market and go after him then.

      So my answer is simply I have no fucking clue what I would do. I can’t evaluate the players properly to give such an answer. There are two ways an organization can use its farm system, supplement the Major League team and bring in a couple players here or there via trade or build around free agency and use the prospects for trades while sprinkling in a young player here or there. I am of belief of the former, so I do think you should trade some prospects to fill in necessary gaps. Those gaps would usually include players who are cost controlled for at least two years.

    • http://sport.newsvine.com Adam

      That’s a great point Ben. Remember the late ’90s dynasty was made by trading away players like Jake Westbrook, Eric Milton and Christian Guzman, but in return we got ourselves David Cone, David Justice, Chuckie, David Wells, etc…

      Even if every single prospect in the system works out, where exactly do they all fit on the 25 man roster?

      And I think if the new Yankee Stadium plays anything like the current, then it is an utmost need of the Yanks to have a dominant lefty or two. We are in serious short supply of LHP throughout the Yankee system, and I’m more than willing to make a 2 for 1 trade considering our huge surplus of RHPs.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos

        That is a great point. Many of the “jewels” of our system that we traded away to get guys like Coney, Justice, Wells, etc. were prospects who were thought of just as highly as the IPK, Montero, Melancon, Horne, Sanchez level guys we have now… and the majority of them didn’t pan out for their new clubs that we dealt them to.

        Marty Janzen, anyone? Lyle Mouton? Fernando Seguignol? Russ Davis? Matt Drews? Ruben Rivera? Cristian Guzman? Homer Bush? Ed Yarnall? D’Angelo Jimenez? John-Ford Griffin? Brandon Claussen? All these guys were once considered STUDS in our system, and they were the centerpieces of deals to acquire proven veterans. The Blue Jays were in full fire-sale mode, and they basically said “There’s no way we give you David Cone, a surefire future-hall of famer, unless we get back Marty Janzen and Jason Jarvis, those kids are AWESOME!!!” And maybe they would turn out awesome, but the percentages say many of them wont. Carlos Gomez may prove to be the only one of the four players the Twins got for Santana who amounts to shit.

        We have BUTTLOADS of highly thought of kids, but we don’t have a #1SP. Make the deal.

  • E-ROC

    Kosuke Fukudome is pretty good.

  • Rich

    I think the team has too many holes to sacrifice prospects, unless the price for Sabathia was significantly discounted because he would be a rental.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Holding on to your prospects too long is just as much a sign of a bad GM as trading them all away too soon.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

        That is a great point. My deal is that it is VERY careless for people outside the Yankee organization to say when is too long and when is too short because overall we don’t know shit no matter how many publications we subscribe to.

      • Steve

        And lets be realistic. MOST of our starters won’t have a open spot in the rotation, either now or in the foreseeable future. And a few of these relievers won’t have spots as well. It will be tough enough finding a spot for PHILIP HUGHES in the rotation this year, much less IPK, Horne, Christian Garcia, etc etc. You can use this excess to upgrade your MLB roster.

      • Rich

        I don’t disagree as a general point, but I think Sabathia’s weight is a risk factor that needs to be taken into any trade in which signing him to a long term contract is a part of the deal.

    • http://sport.newsvine.com Adam

      We have a lot of holes, but the problem is that far too many of our prospects, especially the better ones don’t fill those holes. We need LHP, I don’t see a single LHP in our farm system that I trust to be major league average. We need 1b, nothing in the system there, save for maybe Jesus four years from now if he switches positions. We need power bats in the outfield corners. Nothing in the system to fill those roles.

      But what we do have in the system is a ton of right handed pitching, both starters and relief. Let’s shuffle up some of that talent and use the surplus of righties to fill our other needs.

      “unless the price for Sabathia was significantly discounted because he would be a rental.”

      I’m not sure how much of a discount you want, but this is not the same thing as Johan for an entire year, two years of Erik Bedard or a price controlled Haren for two. This is a two month rental, and I don’t think we’ll need to offer a package anywhere close to those other deals. Now, that’s not to say the discount will be Bobby Abreu sized either…

  • Dillon

    NO Bentances, Cole (if signed), Cano, Hughes, Melancon, Sanchez, or Garcia for negotiating rights to sign a PITCHER to a $20 mill/year long term contract. I want the guy like everyone else, but remember that most likely we’ll get three to four good years out of him….no more.

    • steve (different one)

      i would trade Garcia or Sanchez in a heartbeat for CC. i like those guys a lot, but the odd are really long that someone like Garcia will ever see the majors. he’s basically been injured his entire career. he wouldn’t be the first guy with amazing stuff who never made it.

  • John

    Off topic: Is CJ Henry still in our system?

    • Steve

      I’ll give you Bobby Abreu for him.

      • John

        I know we traded him to the Phils, but didn’t he ask for his release to come back here?

    • A.D.

      Yup, believe they had a post or something that he’ll be playing soon after a neck injury

      • John

        Thanks.

  • A.D.

    If it was Horne/IPK, Betacanes, Aceves & Robertson that could be intriguing, they would need a 72 hour window for the extesnion else no deal. Cleveland gets a ML/Near ML ready pitcher, a good reliever who could potentially be a closer, a high ceiling arm, and guy signed as filler who’s looking pretty good.

    That said don’t know if they should do it, personally I think the yanks should trade the young pitching for bats, a bat would likely be cheaper, and we have far greater need for a ML ready bat than a pitcher, I’m all for CC, he’s a major talent but I don’t see the point in trading for a big arm, only to pay full price for his contract, Haren made some sense because he was signed, CC isn’t.

    Hold the prospects, go after Atkins or some other younger bat.

    • Steve

      Look up his splits, Atkins is a Coors field player,

      • A.D.

        I did, while his avg is much higher at Coors, that happens to everyone even Larry Walker & Gallaraga who are 2 bonefied hitters that hit at all the teams they played for, even so his away avg is .280, which isn’t bad, and it would go up. His HR are the same home & away, has more at-bats away, but it shows no big discrepency

  • adam b.

    i wouldn’t touch sabbathia, sure he’s a great pitcher last year but all you need to know is how many innings CC threw last year including the playoffs which was near 300 and you have to wonder if that isnt going to cause long term effects. sure he’s young but he’s got a bad build and he’s only going to get worse once he gets into his 30s and he’s going to want a santana esque deal and if didnt sign you’d give up all those prospects for nothing, for a half year replacement. this is the wrong way to go there are other pitchers out there to get with less question marks

    • Steve

      He’s a year younger than Santana, and while his build is an issue I think a 5 year deal is reasonable. Takes him till he’s 34, thats only 2 years older than Carl Pavano is right now.

    • steve (different one)

      he threw 256 innings last year. that’s a lot, but i am not sure it’s “near 300″.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    THE METS SUCK!!!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

      I hope Willie Randolph doesn’t get fired and Jose Reyes gets traded to the Yankees. :D

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Man, could you imagine if they played in New York and had to deal with that media?

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos

        Best. Comment. Ever.

    • http://sport.newsvine.com Adam

      Supposedly there are rumors that Jose Reyes is falling out of favor with the Mets, they think he’s plateaued. Even so, I have dreams of moving Jeter to center and trading for Reyes… I wonder what it would take to get him, considering the Mets have I think a grand total of three pitchers under their control for next season. I’m guessing an IPK-centered package would not be enough… I can still dream though.

  • Ivan

    Boy what a year for the Mets already.

    PS: Good for Billy Wagner, he annoys the heck out of me.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

      That’s what I said after the Tony Clark HR. That HR couldn’t have happened to two more deserving people.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Isn’t it ironic how Tom Gordon did not re-sign with the Yankees because he said he wanted to close but he ended up being the set-up guy to Brett Myers in just his second season in Philly and is now the set-up guy to Brad Lidge?

    Do you guys think the reason he gave was BS and he just wanted to avoid a reliever’s worst fate, Death by Torre?

    • steve (different one)

      i don’t think the yankees wanted to give him 3 years after the way he’d been abused the previous 2 years.

      it sucks that they signed Farns instead, but it got them Joba.

    • A.D.

      That would be awesome if he came out with that later, but he did close his first season and then got hurt, so it’s probably legit

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Dan “Ugly” Uggla with the walk-off Grand Salami.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Mike, looks like you have a better night to work with for DotF than last night.

    • A.D.

      pitching has been excellent today

  • Steve S

    I would say so long as you can work out a reasonable extension then do it. If he is willing to go for five years on the extension with team options on the sixth and seventh then its worth it. The only question I have is what does Cleveland really need. They are set at the centerfield position so I dont think the Melky stuff really would fit. Maybe some of you minor league guys can give an insight into what players would fit with the Indians, assuming the so called untouchables are untouchable. Would they be willing to take projects like Betances or would they have to be more major league ready. I just dont know what kind of haul Ian Kennedy would get you at this stage, his value must be at an all time low.

    Also, I heard the Cubs would really be on him, what would the Cubs have to offer in comparison?

  • A.D.

    Also apparently Christian Garcia is on the DL, anyone know why?

  • http://www.blognameremoved.com Todd

    As a kid, the only things I heard on sports radio were “we need good pitching,” “you can’t win a series without pitching,” and “we need more pitching!”

    The Indians need to keep their ace. Trading him away is ridiculous. Trading him to an American League rival is pure insanity. The only situation where it would make sense is if he went to the N.L. (The kid is a pretty good bat and he wouldn’t be a threat to Cleveland.) Even then, the Tribe would need to get a lot of talent in return.

  • http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1383090075 Brad

    I’m taking Hughes off my do not touch list. The guy is so young, yet has a crazy injury history (as nomaas pointed out so astutely). Like the guy, think the world of his pitching ability. Still would trade him for an impact pitcher like Sabathia. However, I’d really try and up his trade value. It’s probably at it’s lowest ever since he’s been so injury-prone.
    I’d probably include 2 of Horne, Betances, Tabata, Austin Romine in a Sabathia package. He’s just that nice.
    Plus, I think that 72 hour negotiating window is precious. We’ve been beat in bidding wars in recent years, I’d rather have near-guarantee that Sabathia signs with the big NY via trade.

    • Bo

      “I’d probably include 2 of Horne, Betances, Tabata, Austin Romine”

      Do you know what the Yanks project these guys to be? How does anyone know what the Yanks think of their guys? What if they feel Betances is a legit ace? What if they think Tabata is a 30 HR RF? Now is it wise just to throw them in to get a deal for a FA to be who you are going to have to pay top dollar to?

      Makes me laugh to see trade proposals from fans who have never seen any of these kids they throw into deals play

  • JeterMack Clutch

    since there is money involved in taking sabathia, could shapiro possibly agree to taking on damon. If i am cleveland, getting a respectable leadoff hitter to push grady to the 2spot would be very effective. just a thought; damon +2Mil, ipk, throw-in(s) not tabata, betances, horne

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      If the Yanks acquire Sabathia to make a push for the playoffs, how are you going to replace Damon’s production? He’s having an All Star caliber season out of the leadoff spot, and he’s a very good left fielder. Neither of those things grow on trees.

  • Geno

    The clock continues to tick on this season, and the Yanks continue to hover around .500. At what point do we think about unloading guys like Damon and Giambi? They’re both having good years, and if we could get a couple of good, young minor league bats for them…

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos

      A) So you’re saying that we can’t compete and we should go into fire-sale mode?

      B) We can’t get good, young, minor league bats for them. You only get good, young minor league bats for guys entering their primes, not leaving them.

      • Geno

        A) Not really a firesale. I’d look at it more like moving a few players who won’t be here next year for a few prospects who could help us in ’09, preferably hitting prospects. And I’m not saying we couldn’t compete after the trades. I’m simply saying that selling high isn’t such a bad thing.

        B) Nonsense. Teams in the hunt for the playoffs often trade good prospects for older players who fill certain needs. Fact is, Giambi, Mussina and Fansworth could fill vital needs elsewhere, while netting us good prospects.

        C) I’m not saying we absolutely should take this road. I’m only saying that time may come, and when it does, what should we do?

        • chris

          couldnt agree more. the yankees are blessed that older players are g\doing well .

          i say trade giambi, farns, damon, and even matsui. with all the clrearded payroll each can be easily replaced and in the meantime by thowing in some cash we good net some damn good prospects – maybe some hitters for a change – look at all the damage young hitters are doing now a days fielder, bruce, braun. i am not saying they can get that back but maybe some that have the potential to be close to them. in 3 years every position player on the ieam excluding cano jeter rodriguez and maybe melky if he is not dealt will be gone. that is the sign of an old team. they need to get guys here who will play together for 5-6-7 years like the dynasty teams.

          clearly we need and Ace, chances are a set-up man emerges, but the team needs to chase offense because what we got down there aint great and ertainly not enough to build a team – a team that will grow together as we see the brewers and dbacks and rays doing. we cant go the mets route and sign every bigg name free agent hitter out there. trade for or grow yung hitters and then alla 1996-2004 sign a mercinary pitcher eah year for a boost

  • mike

    The yankees while having the money to pay sabathia, wont be able to get him. The indians are rumored to want prospects 3-4 maybe even 5 for him. I doubt hell still be an indian at the end of the year so that takes the money equation out of the picture. THe yankees do not have what the indians seek to aquire sabathia befor he is a free agent, and thus will not be pickng up the lefty. The only two teams with a legit shot to get him this year, and pay him 20 million a season starting next year., The dodgers and cubs. The dodgers wont make the push, so i look for the cubs to trade away there endless stream of prospects in an attempt to acquire him. And im sure sabathia wont be to upset having to go to the hottest team and pitch in a rotation with big Z both of whom are under 28.