Dec
11

RoboKen: Cameron deals hits a roadblock

By

Don’t buy your Cameron jerseys quite yet. The deal may have hit a roadblock. According to Ken Rosenthal, the Brewers want another player, and the Yanks want the Brewers to pick up some salary. Neither team is budging on this issue quite yet, but if the two sides want to get it done, they will. The idea that Melky is somehow enough compensation for Mike Cameron and salary is objectively preposterous.

Categories : Asides, Hot Stove League

149 Comments»

  1. radnom says:

    It didn’t really make sense that they would give him away for nothing.
    Why would they have even picked up the option in the first place?

    • radnom says:

      Just to clarify, I still think this gets done.

    • Slugger27 says:

      if they consider melky a bounce-back candidate ((remember, we are doing the same thing with swisher)) then its not “nothing” … but maybe they picked up the option before realizing just how bad the economy was, or before they realized they would have no chance at any legitimate FA pitcher

      • jsbrendog says:

        or to try and use him as a reason for cc to come back and now that that ship has sailed………….

        just saying

      • UNION YES. says:

        The difference is that Swisher is already more or less proven. Melky has yet to show it.

        • Slugger27 says:

          melky in 06: 130 games, 280/360/391
          melky in 07: 150 games, 273/327/391

          thats not great, but its not TERRIBLE… and those arent exactly small sample sizes…. the guy totally regressed in 08, but its not like hes been worthless since the moment he was brought up

          i compared it to swisher, cuz theyre both cost-controlled for the next few years, and like the yankees, the brewers would be buying low on melky, and hoping he returns to previous years form

          clearly, i dont think melky is worth both cameron and cameron salary relief, but if theyre trading for him hoping he returns to 06/07 form, then thats not trading for “nothing”

          at the very least, we knows hes an above average defender

          • Ben K. says:

            He had an OPS+ last year of 68 and has an overall career OPS+ of 89. That’s pretty bad. Terrible is Juan Pierre but that’s only because he’s made $30 million to be as bad as Melky is. I guess terrible may be subjective.

            • Slugger27 says:

              but in both 06 and 07 he had an ops+ of 92… so if hes cost-controlled for 3 more years, a plus defender, and theyre thinking he can bounce back to those numbers, AND get salary relief, i can see their point of view in this deal

              again, this wasnt my point… i am in no way saying melky should stay or this is a bad deal for the yanks… all im saying is i can see their “buying low/hoping for bounce back/salary relief/cost controlled player” side of the deal… so i wouldnt say its trading for “nothing”

              of course, melky is not worth cameron and subsequent salary relief, that would be a steal for the yankees

              i think the yankees win in this deal, but its not like milwaukee couldnt benefit from it

              • Ben K. says:

                Cost-controlled players aren’t worth it if they’re making the team worse.

              • Chris C. says:

                Do you realize that you’re nickel and diming over a bunch of crappy players who have no business manning centerfield in Yankee Stadium to begin with?

                Who cares if Cabrera isn’t worth Cameron? The Brewers are looking to salary-dump, and the Yankees are looking to overpay for someone who stinks.

                Why try to disrupt business as usual?

      • radnom says:

        They might consider him a slight bounce-back candidate.

        Maybe.

        I think this is more a salary dump than anything though.
        I mean, Melky was pretty horrendous last year, and has been regressing every year he has been in the league.

        • Chris C. says:

          I mean, Melky was pretty horrendous last year, and has been regressing every year he has been in the league.

          Yeah, all TWO years he’s been in the league.
          I haven’t seen a downward slope that steep since Robby Cano!

          • Ben K. says:

            Three. Melky has been in the league three years and not once has even put up league average numbers. The Yanks aren’t going to miss him when they finally dispatch him to some other team.

            • Chris C. says:

              Three. Melky has been in the league three years and not once has even put up league average numbers.

              He’s basically had a one year regression. That’s hardly a fair sample size to denote a spiral.
              The bigger picture is, the Yankees are not giving Brett Gardner a chance to show what he can do at the top of the line-up. After getting his feet wet this year, the guy hit .280, reached base 35% of the time, played a stellar outfield over the last two months of the season. And the guy has BLAZING speed. Not good speed, BLAZING speed. HE’s progressed at every level he’s played at, and is worth giving a chance to.

              This whole “bridge the gap to Austin Jackson” bullcrap we keep hearing is typical Yankee short-sightedness. Why not bridge that gap by giving Gardner a better look? For all we know, Gardner could emerge as a major threat at the plate and on the bases, and Jackson could be the next Gerald Williams!

              Getting Mike Cameron gives us no way of really knowing this. It’s a waste of money, and total lack of patience.

    • Chris C. says:

      “The idea that Melky is somehow enough compensation for Mike Cameron and salary is objectively preposterous.”

      Look……….I realize the Yankees are only interested in overpaying free agents and ripping off trade partners. Everybody knows this.

      But if the Brewers think they’re gonna get anywhere close to an even talent swap for a 36 year old strike-out artist who reaches base at a pathetic rate, is declining in foot speed, has a career OPS under 8.00 and has a one year contract for 10 mill, they’re kidding themselves.

      For cryin out loud, they shouldn’t have offered him arbitration! Of course he was gonna to accept it. Who the hell else would give Cameron 10 million bucks……………….besides the Yankees?
      For a team trying to scale down their payroll, that was stupid.

      For that same money, they could have bought 20 Melky Cabrera’s!

  2. BTW, isn’t Ken Rosenthal like 0-for-the entire winter meetings? I could be wrong, but it seems like he’s been saying “this will never get done” right before something gets done, and he’s been “wrap it up, it’s finished” right before something irreparably blows up.

  3. Double-J says:

    I realize I’m in the small minority who still *likes* Melky as a Yankee, but if the Yanks are looking for an outfielder I’d rather see them go after Manny/Dunn and leave Melky alone.

    Or, of course, I could swallow a trade for Cameron if that came with a signing of Teixiera.

    • The Evil Dynasty says:

      Just cause we get Mike doesn’t mean that we’re out of it for Manny or Dunn? Or does it?

      • Slugger27 says:

        it doesnt, but if we get mike AND aj, AND pettitte… that might make us out of the running for another bat

        debatable i know, but i think id rather have the pitching than manny or dunn, assuming we have to choose one or the other… of course, that may not be the case

      • Reggie C. says:

        I think if Hank wants Cash to move on a corner OF like Dunn or Manny, then it’ll happen and one of Nady, Mats, and Damon gets traded for spare parts. If Hank’s got the Manny shades on then the Yanks aren’t done wheeling-and-dealing.

        The return on a Nady trade would however net the Yanks the best-looking spare parts.

      • Double-J says:

        No, it doesn’t, sorry if my post kind of alluded to that. I do think though they can’t be exclusively focused on pitching, they have to add a bat, and I think Texieira or Manny makes so much sense.

        Hell, if I were Cashman, I’d roll the dice and get Tex AND Manny. Manny can play the OF, and yes, we’d have to deal with a horrific defensive starting outfield, but we’d more than make up for it with a sick lineup…

        Sorry, I was dreaming again. :-D

  4. Number 27 says:

    haha “objectively preposterous”

    i guess that law school exam went well. ;)

  5. E-ROC says:

    Maybe the Yanks will move away from Mike Cameron to David DeJesus.

    • UNION YES. says:

      I’m all for that. You think Melky and IPK would be enough?

    • jsbrendog says:

      will cost too much. wont happen

    • Maybe the Yanks will move away from Mike Cameron to David DeJesus.

      Mike Cameron, 2008 wOBA: .353
      David DeJesus, 2008 wOBA: .355

      Mike Cameron, 2008 UZR/150 (in CF): 13.3
      David DeJesus, 2008 UZR/150 (in CF): -7.4

      Brewers interest in moving Mike Cameron: serious
      Royals interest in moving David DeJesus: minimal

      • Reggie C. says:

        Exactly. DeJesus isn’t going to get traded unless we cough up his replacement (A-jax). The Royals want to pick up one very good prospect for DeJesus. And why shouldn’t they…

        What do you think of our chances at Rick Ankiel who’s definitely being shopped?

      • jsbrendog says:

        ARGH!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!11 STATS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

        maybe we should go after roid ankles. he’s got game. I saw it with my own eyes.

      • radnom says:

        Ok, there is one offensive stat.
        How about this:

        Cameron: 1 year, $10 million stop-gap.
        DeJesus: Cheap, controlled-longer-term outfield option soon to be entering his prime.

        There is a reason Cameron is willing to be dumped over a few million dollars.
        I would fulled support making a run at DeJesus, depending on the price.

        • Sweet Dick Willie says:

          Cameron: can be had for Melky
          DeJesus: would require surrendering significant prospects

          • Chris C. says:

            “Cameron: can be had for Melky
            DeJesus: would require surrendering significant prospects”

            You mean the prospects the Yankees are phasing out with all these signings anyway? May as well toss them Kennedy or Aceves at this point.

            How are the Yankees ever gonna be hurt by dealing a prospect or two when they can just overpay for any Free Agent they want?

        • That’s true, but for my retort I return you to my final couplet above:

          Brewers interest in moving Mike Cameron: serious
          Royals interest in moving David DeJesus: minimal

          The Royals are in no rush to move DeJesus… they’d want something good in return. The Brewers (probably) won’t. They just want out of that salary. And ultimately, a buy-low stopgap is probably best for us, as we have Austin Jackson (who defensively is light-years better than everyone discussed in this thread) waiting in the wings. Giving up something of significance to acquire DeJesus means that we’re getting him for a year or two of CF, and then more years of RF or LF. I don’t think his bat profiles as well at the corners. (Plus, we’ll likely need one corner for Jeter, and we may make a run at Holliday…)

          The cheap (prospect-wise) short-term stopgap probably fits both our short-term and long-term plans better, IMO.

          Moreover, as I detailed below, DeJesus isn’t that good defensively. I think he’s a bit overhyped. Not interested.

      • Chris C. says:

        Perhaps that’s because DeJesus is entering his prime, has an affordable contract, and just had a better season than Cameron in a crappier line-up.
        PLUS, he’s a better candidate for lead-off hitter (around .370 OBP)………which is something the Yankees really need.

        Which guy do you think has a better chance of improving into the future? Apparently the guy who’s team has minimal interest in trading him.

        The reason the Yankees won’t go after DeJesus is because they don’t think they have a good chance of ripping the Royals off for him.
        They’d rather settle for the overpaid bum they can get for peanuts, and magically believe his pricetag makes him the better player.

        And he’s CC’s buddy……..they’re not done kissing his fanny.
        By the end of the week, LeBron James will be in rightfield.

  6. stuart says:

    Cameron is a K machine with diminishing range..

    he is not exactly a stud and at $10 mill a year is way way overpaid…

    The guy is good for 150 K’s…..

    • Reggie C. says:

      Perhaps. But his “diminishing range” is only a 1 year concern, and its good enough to catch everything Melky caught. I just hope A-Jackson takes another step forward this season.

    • rbizzler says:

      Even with his diminishing range, he still grades out defensively as better than Melky. It is a one-year deal and the cost is high, but far from exorbitant.

      I don’t understand why people are up in arms about this.

      • “Even with his diminishing range, he still grades out defensively as better than Melky the majority of all major league centerfielders, including Melky, Edmonds, DeJesus, Damon, Rowand and a host of others.”

        Fixed.

      • Jamal G. says:

        Not true, Melky Cabrera has been a better center fielder over the past two seasons (especially in 2007, Melky murdered Cameron in center field, defensively). Actually, Cabrera has been one of the elite defenders in center field over the course of the 2007-2008 campaigns.

        • Ivan says:

          I knew that.

          That was like the only good thing he did as a yankee.

        • kimonizer says:

          Is that judgment based on balls he got to and assists or total range because doesn’t Cameron still have better range. I would think that Cameron gets to more balls and probably knows how to command the centerfield position better. I remember Melky looking clueless when trying to deal with other outfielders and not being clear about owning balls. There was a spell when he wasn’t calling guys off and almost causing collisions. This might all be just be bad recollections, just wondering what some of the fielding comparative stats are for Melk and Cameron. Gardener stats would be nice to throw in there too.

    • Chris C. says:

      “Cameron is a K machine with diminishing range..”

      He’s not worth denying Brett Gardner a chance in center.
      He’s just not.

      If they got Dejesus, I could understand. But I do not understand this.
      Typical Yankee impatience and wrong-headedness.

  7. stuart says:

    IPK would get Cameron alone.. THe guy is 35 and not that good.

    Bash IPK all you wnat the guy is washed up at 23!!!!

    More shrewd patient talent evaluators….

    Santana was a rule 5 signing originally clowns…

  8. UNION YES. says:

    So the Ankiel talks are dead I assume?

  9. jsbrendog says:

    hadricourt “reports” iof you can call what he does reporting that the yanks tried to get the brewers tot ake igawa and melvin was like HELlS NO! haha

  10. 7 Angels says:

    We don’t need Cameron, even as a 1 year type. Saw him in playoffs and defense not impressive. Keep the kids rather than go for another washed up has been.

  11. UNION YES. says:

    I’m sensing more displaced LoHud posters these days.

  12. vj says:

    No. I don’t like Melky but I don’t like Cameron. I would rather have melky ground out to 2nd every time instead of Cameron strike out every time

    • Slugger27 says:

      what if swisher gets on 1st in front of him? and theres less than 2 outs?

    • I would rather have melky ground out to 2nd every time instead of Cameron strike out every time

      A) That statement is batshit insane. Both of those outs are utterly equal. If anything, the K is probably slightly better than the groundout, as it lessens the chance for a GIDP.

      B) During the times where they’re not making outs, Cameron is exponentially more productive. Melky’s strikeouts + Melky’s ground/pop/fly/lineouts combined are actually LESS than Cameron’s strikeouts + Cameron’s ground/pop/fly/lineouts combined, but Cameron gives you twice the walks, twice the XBH’s, and better defense.

      C) You should consider examining things with your brain instead of merely regurgitating your preconceived biases and passing them off as valuable thought.

      • jsbrendog says:

        batshit insane is growing on me.

      • Chuck says:

        maybe you should see that he wasn’t trying to have the stat crazy argument you threw at him. He was just saying fuck it what is the difference between these two dumb asses. Hence “I do not like Melky but I do not like Cameron.” He wasnt arguing k vs gidp vs ground balls. Just that both players are assclowns. At least that is what I think.

      • Chris C. says:

        “A) That statement is batshit insane. Both of those outs are utterly equal. If anything, the K is probably slightly better than the groundout, as it lessens the chance for a GIDP.”

        Oh, good Fucking gravy!!!!! A K is NOT better than a ground-out over the course of a season. Not another one of these posts again! Since the average player grounds into about 12-15 DP’s a year, a guy striking out 150 times is really not sparing himself all that much GIDP’s to make it some kind of benefit.
        When you strike out, you are NEVER moving runners over, and NEVER giving the defense a chance to make a play.

        The only reason I like Adam Dunn and all his K’s is because the man also draws passes, and reaches base close to 40% of the time.
        But that doesn’t mean his strikeout totals don’t stink.

        No sabermatrician in the world will ever tell you that a strikeout, over the course of the season, is the same as a groundout or flyout.

        Cameron striking out the way he does, AND only reaching base 33% of the time is LOUSY, LOUSY, LOUSY!

  13. Reggie C. says:

    Joel Sherman talked to an exec “involved” in the swap who calls the deal’s chances “remote”. The brewers don’t want a swap of players. Looks like they’re asking for IPK. I’d like to see another team willing to take on the majority of 10M.

    Oh well. Cash should see this as a chance to take a real stab at Rick Ankiel.

  14. Reggie C. says:

    MLBTR UPDATE:

    1. Towers: peavy talks are dead.
    2. Yanks tried to pull a fast one of the Brewers. We wanted them to take Igawa too. They’re not having it.

  15. Jamal G. says:

    Heh, “I enjoyed this comment” from MLBTR:

    “The Cubs pulled out.” That’s what she said.

  16. pat says:

    The only reason i prefer ankiel to cameron besides all the obvious stuff is that in 2010 when johnny damons gone we could slot ankiel in left or right depending upon what we do with the x man.

  17. Joe Dirt says:

    Mike Francesa’s baseball opinions border on mental retardation. He STILL can’t let go of the fact that Joba won’t be in the bullpen… even when every decision-maker in the Yankees organization disagrees with him. He can’t effing let it go!!

    I’m forced to listen to him b/c of where I work. And I don’t care if this is off topic, I don’t. Come arrest me. I have to vent. It drives me insane.

  18. leo says:

    Cameron is only under contract for one year so while Melky not being enough is probably true, they really shouldn’t give up much more than that for a stopgap CF.

  19. whozat says:

    What pitcher do you think we give up to get this done? Let’s say Kennedy is too close to MLB-ready 4/5 starter to give him up AND take on this money…do you send a guy like Coke, who could be a starter in AAA this year, maybe a starter in the bigs, probably an MLB lefty reliever long-term? Or, do you send like…Zmac? Who would the Brewers take?

  20. radnom says:

    So much for Punto….

  21. jsbrendog says:

    so now tyler kepner says the brewers are asking abgout igawa?????? igawa and melky for cameron and we pay full 10M???

    IN A FUCKING HEARTBEAT!!

    • The Evil Dynasty says:

      Am i the only one who thinks Igawa has a lot of future potential?

      • pat says:

        yes, yes you are

      • Slugger27 says:

        u are the only one who thinks he has a LITTLE future potential

      • Sweet Dick Willie says:

        Am i the only one who thinks Igawa has a lot of future potential?

        Well, if you mean after he has a left arm transplant so that he can throw the ball, and after he has a brain transplant so he can keep the ball down in the zone, then no, you are not the only one who thinks he has future potential. Barring those developments, I would think you are a minority of one.

      • jsbrendog says:

        not even kei igawa thinks kei igawa has future potential. He has a calendar and every mroning h notches antoher x til he goes home to japan

  22. Bruno says:

    Any chance Nady could play CF? Damon, Nady, Dunn with Manny DH

  23. Chuck says:

    I think it would be foolish to not use Gardner in CF unless we get a similar base runner. With a lineup as stacked as the yankees have (probably be more stacked after another bat) when he gets on base he gets pitchers to throw more fastballs to hear of the order guys(presuming he bats last or even lead off) due to his sb threat. That alone is a huge benefit. Speed is needed. I mean he can’t totally blow dogs for quarters offensively but if he is getting on base a decent amount he’ll make the hitters after him better.

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