Open Thread: KLaw on the Granderson trade
ByThere are still some minor details left to hammer out, but the Yanks, D-Backs, and Tigers have all agreed on the framework of a three-team trade that will send Curtis Granderson to the Bronx, Edwin Jackson to the desert, and various prospects to MoTown. From the Yanks perspective, it’s basically a swap of Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, and Phil Coke for Granderson, the rest is just details.
As always, Keith Law checks in with his take at the four-letter. It’s subscriber only, but I’ll quote the Yankee-relevant parts:
The Yankees also come out ahead simply because they haven’t given up much of value, and in exchange they get an above-average everyday centerfielder. Curtis Granderson is a good defensive centerfielder who hits right-handers well, is a plus runner and gets unanimous raves for his personality. In two of the last three years, however, he hasn’t cracked a .500 OPS against left-handed pitchers and his pitch recognition problems against southpaws look like they’ll be very hard to correct, meaning that the Yankees need to consider a right-handed-hitting centerfielder to caddy for him against at least good left-handed starters. That (hypothetical) two-headed monster would be among the better centerfield solutions in the American League. It’s good they got that player for Jackson, who right now projects as more of an average everyday centerfielder; Coke, a middle reliever who had lost Joe Girardi‘s trust anyway; and Ian Kennedy, who at the very least wasn’t going to crack the Yankees’ rotation again.
Should be noted: Granderson is due $25.75 million over the next three years, including the 2013 buyout.
As a prospect guy, it’s tough to see Jackson and Kennedy go, but it’s a move the Yanks really couldn’t pass up. Jackson isn’t a finished product, and the Yanks essentially swapped him for a guy that represents his best case scenario in terms of value. It would have been real nice to have Kennedy around for depth next year, but that’s the cost of doing business. Coke? Easily replaceable.
By no means is Granderson perfect. He certainly has his flaws, especially against lefties, but he’s a monumental upgrade over the Yanks’ incumbent centerfield tandem. This shouldn’t preclude the Yanks from seeking out a leftfielder, because much of Granderson’s value stems from his production at a premium position. Here’s what Joe wrote about the move at YES Network.
Anyway, here’s your open thread for the night. The Isles are in action, and The Quest For 1-81 continues in Chicago. Anything goes, so have at it.
465 Comments»
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Which is of course, an opening offer. One made with the expectation that the Yanks would counter with . . . say Brett Gardner and Ivan Nova, and the two sides would split the difference and settle on A-Jax and Z-Mac (or IPK) for Curtis Granderson.
Deal?
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-707469
Just call me Nostra-artist.
You basically got the really obvious name right and had a 50/50 chance on the other guy, and left out Coke. With those guesses you’re more Miss Cleo than Nostradamus.
Hahahaha.
hahahahahha!
MISS CLEO!!!
It was a good move. I didn’t think so yesterday but your post actually convinced me.
What move comes next?
Given the reaction to this deal, I’d say the next ‘move’ would be the Arizona GM giving Cashman a Rusty Trombone.
Probably LF i would assume. That needs to be addressed for sure. Because if Damon does not return, I am sure the Yankees will go after a Corner OF with a big bat. I would not count on them making Melky as their starting LF. The next issue should definitely be pitching IMO. At this point, Roy Halladay is a pipe dream so i think Cash should consider Lackey and definitely Sheets/Harden. Our rotation is still one of the best in baseball without Halladay.
1) I still want that Justin Smoak-type bat.
2) Granderson needs to be Sterlingized. http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....rlingized/
1) Jesus Montero?
RAB inside joke =D
Please don’t encourage John Sterling.
Yankees:Sterling = Sistine Chapel:Vagrant pissing on the frescoes
Yankees:Sterling = Sistine Chapel:Vagrant pissing on the frescoes
If some vagrant pissed on the frescoes of the Sistine Chapel, Leonardo DaVinci would roll over in his grave, if he was dead. I’m not really sure if he is or not.
Sincerely,
Steve Lombardi
da vinci is alive? shit don’t tell dan brown
join the inside, basically Peter Gammons said the Red Sox won’t trade Brad Penny for anything less than a Justin Smoak type bat. Smoak happens to be one of the best hitting prospects and Brad Penny is dried up crap. He was later released adn Gammons has continue to suck on teh Red Sox ****
The question of a caddy for Granderson is a good one, since he probably isn’t on the roster. It would need to be someone who can play (anywhere) in the OF who crushes Lefties. Someone like . ..oh, I dunno. . . Shelly Duncan.
How about this vs. LHP:
Damon in LF (DH vs. RHP), Cameron in CF, Grandy on the bench (LF vs. RHP).
I dig it. That’s also my ideal scenario.
I think Damon will get a 2-3 year deal elsewhere, and for more $ per. Don’t see him or Matsui coming back after today.
I think it’s still possible that Matsui is back, especially considering the CoOF situation. If the Yankees want to play Melky in left, then they’ve got to have a legit DH to make up for the lack of offense there.
It would need to be someone who can play (anywhere) in the OF who crushes Lefties. Someone like . ..oh, I dunno. . .
Shelly Duncan.MIKE CAMERON.Will he take 5 mil to be a bench player? I dunno. If so, sign me up.
When he’s not being the righty half of the Granderson “platoon”, he’d be starting next to Granderson in LF.
He wouldn’t be a bench player, he’d be an everyday player. Melky and Gardner would be the bench players.
Kinda pricey. Most guys that kill lefties are AAA/bench players. They’re a dime a dozen. If you kill Righties, you’re a big leaguer.
Damon and Matsui both made 13M last year.
Don’t resign one of them. Granderson’s making 3.5M this year. That leaves 10M for Cammy, without increasing payroll; you’re just swapping Damon/Matsui and Melky for Granderson and Cameron.
I agree, but Granderson is owed 5.5 mil for ’10. just sayin
Whoops, my bad.
Still, though, I wasn’t really gonna give Cameron 10M. Give him 8M, and the math still works.
what tommie is saying is not that cameron is the platoon guy, but that it makes melky the platoon guy.
Bingo.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I just love this deal. We got a 20-30 HR hitter for two pieces of trash and a decent prospect.
Yes, Coke didn’t do his job this season. a 4.50 ERA out of the Pen just won’t cut it.
They’re not all-world players or anything, but IPK and Coke still have value. They’re not trash, but they are the type of players you don’t worry about losing if getting something good in return.
Ok, maybe trash was a little harsh. AAAA players.
Nah, more like AAAAA players. I believe Coke and IPK can be solid major leaguers, as opposed to a AAAA player like Shelly Duncan.
Exactly. They’re better than Duncan, albeit at different positions. Duncan is too good for AAA, but really gets exposed at MLB levels since he can’t touch non-fastballs. IPK can certainly be a decent starter for the D-Backs, maybe a #4 guy with the chance to be a #3 in the future. Coke is a LOOGY, and in a big park like Comerica, would be much more effective than he would be in YS3. And if you look at his numbers, for a LOOGY, he’s pretty good.
Exactly why IPK is going to kill in the NL West.
Because people RAB say so.
LOL
Because people at RAB
say so.don’t overreact to the typical struggles of a 22 and 23 year old pitcher making his first adjustements to starting on the big league level and remember that Kennedy is still a very talented pitcher who was the best hurler in the history of USC, better than Prior Zito and Randy Johnson and all the others, and that he dominated the minors and has lots of talent and ability.Fixed.
“best hurler in the history of USC, better than Prior Zito and Randy Johnson and all the others, and that he dominated the minors and has lots of talent and ability.”
And this MEANS NOTHING in the MLB level. Don’t overreact accomplishments in the minor levels when the only success IPK had in MLB was in September games. And before you say I hate him (like you always do) I DON’T I just think you guys overrated him and had very excuse in the book when he got hit like a punching bag.
I wish the young man all the best.
Overrate not overreact.
I could understand the thing for Joba and Hughes, but could never understand IPK still can’t.
Wrong. It means SOMETHING at the MLB level.
It means he has upside and potential, because he’s been amazing-lights-out-dominant in high school, amazing-lights-out-dominant in college, amazing-lights-out-dominant in the minor leagues.
It doesn’t mean he’s going to be amazing-lights-out-dominant in the bigs, but it does mean he’s got a good probability of not continuing to be horribly suck-tastic in the big leagues. Guys who get guys out at exceedingly high rates as amateurs, collegians, and prospects tend to not be totally worthless in the bigs.
He was still very young at the time he had his struggles. No reason to think he could never succeed in some way at the MLB level. It’s not like he just got by in the minors – he straight pwned those bitches.
Plus, it’s the same as with Joba and Hughes – you don’t call a prospect’s career at 59.2 major league innings.
That’s why. Prospects – preach patience.
“Plus, it’s the same as with Joba and Hughes”
I’m sorry its not. I saw Joba and Hughes handed MLB batters outside of September IPK is not even in the same league. I’m not saying that he will not be an OK starter someday I just think you guys overrated him. Well now he is in a weaker league and division without the DH or the pressure of the Yankees lets see what he does.
We shall see, yes.
Obviously Joba and Hughes have longer leashes. But I meant it’s the same type of idea – you need to give a prospect more time before you completely call it quits.
To make it clear ” Ok starter” is about 12 to 14 wins era around 4 or so. Since tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada is throwing names out like Prior, Zito and Randy Johnson I think you guys are looking for 16 to 18 wins and era closer to 3.
This will be fun we will see.
But I meant it’s the same type of idea – you need to give a prospect more time before you completely call it quits.
Especially if that prospect has shown consistent EXCELLENCE in every step of his amateur and prospect career, which all three pitchers (Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy) have.
Since tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada is throwing names out like Prior, Zito and Randy Johnson I think you guys are looking for 16 to 18 wins and era closer to 3.
I didn’t say Kennedy will be as good as or better than Zito, Prior, or Johnson.
What I said was, the fact that he was better than them in college is a reason to think that he will be good in the pros, just like they were. Not as good as them, just good.
Point blank Is IPK ever going to be a 18 game winner?
Yes or No
Point blank: I don’t give a shit.
Point blank: IPK is going to be a good MLB starter, somewhere, someday, for someone. He will improve, and he has talent. Whether that makes him a 10 game winner or an 18 game winner, I haven’t the foggiest.
Wins are a stupid stat anyway. Kennedy will get guys out at a good enough rate to be a quality starting pitcher.
Or you guys give me numbers for super amateur. That’s MLB not minors.
So give me the numbers ” rate to be a quality starting pitcher.” if wins aren’t good enough. We need something to measure him by since we aren’t going to be see him on the regular.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
105ish ERA+.
Kennedy can do that. Probably do a 110 as well, eventually.
Trash? That’s silly. A-jax will likely be a solid all around player pretty soon and IPK should do well in the NL West.
I think the Yanks made a good move, but you’re going overboard.
I like the new name, La Steve.
Muchas gracias.
On the strength of your new name, and our conversations regarding the great names available on Thursday’s R5 draft, I’m trying out a new name myself. Let’s see how this feels.
Torquemada was a cruel, vicious, depraved man.
But damn, could he carry a good hymn. Perfect pitch.
It combines my two favorite things about RAB:
Math, and cruelty.
As some have said, would Reed Johnson be a good platoon parter?
So, if we think about it in terms of Ajax, IPK, Coke for Granderson, we should also consider that we’re picking up the 1st pick in the Rule V. It’s very possible someone could come right in and fill the role IPK or Coke would have filled (though they’d have to stay on the 25-man all year, unless another deal can be struck). Even with his poor splits, as was noted, Granderson is a big upgrade, certainly worth Ajax (likely never becomes as good as Granderson), IPK (who’s really depth or a back rotation sort) and Coke (It is high, it is far, it is GONE!).
Add Yohan Pino, Rodriguez, Lofgren or another guy able to contribute to the mix and this looks even better.
Good point.
I was trying to think of what type of player the Yankees would select that they feel can last on the 25 man roster…
Backup infielder? They have plenty of options there already.
Backup catcher? Maybe… they can give Cervelli more time to develop in SWB.
Backup outfielder? Not if Melky and Gardner stick around.
Reliever? This seems to be the safest bet. There are more relievers on a team than any other position. Seems logical to me. The question then becomes – are they looking for a reliever, or a guy who can hide in the bullpen then move to the rotation?
You guys see the only comment in Joe’s post (emphasis mine):
SMARTell87 wrote:
This was a great move by the Yanks. Cashman has done it again!!!! Granderson is by far the 2nd best CF in the game behind a healthy Grady Sizemore. Not only does he bring power, speed and defense, he also can bat leadoff (having Jeter bat first is stupid and I still dont agree with that to this day). We just locked up CF for years!!!! Now all we need is to grab Carl Crawford in 2011 and our outfield will be the best in baseball. LF: Crawford, CF: Granderson, RF: Melky
WOW! Really? Having Jetes leadoff really sucked this year huh? It was horrible! Also, I love how we get Crawford and then put Melky in RF so I’m guessing Swish is the DH? This post is SMRT!
There are dumb fans of every team. As fans of the most popular team in sports, we can expect a fair amount of The Stupid from our side.
calling someone stupid for their opinion is ironically very stupid
Another story for you guys…
Officiating a freshman game again tonight. The ball is being dribbled at half court when the offensive team calls a time-out. I look for my partner to give him the ball and he’s no where to be found.
At this point, I noticed the massive pile of vomit on the baseline. Needless to say, he didn’t return, and I reffed the last quarter and a half all by myself.
You can’t make this stuff up haha.
Haha, that sucks dude. I’m sorry.
I just had no idea what to do haha. There was like a ten minute delay while the A.D. cleaned everything up.
“There was like a ten minute delay…”
I’m gonna fine myself $8 for that one.
/JMK’s parents’d
The sawdust fairy is the A.D.? Were the janitors too busy reading physics textbooks?
Unfortunately, there were no janitors to be found.
And I sure as hell wasn’t getting near the mess.
I admit I was a bit disappointed about the trade because I expected a couple prospects along with Granderson…But it’ll be nice watching him.
However this winter he better get the Kevin Long treatment. I don’t him playing home run pinball in YS3. His OBP could be a tad better too.
His IsoD was pretty good last year (.078) so a correction in BA will boost his OBP back up.
Suprise AL team for Milton Bradley?
Melky to the Cubs, Bradley to DH?
/waits for TSJC
He’s going to shart on that idea. The man really hates Bradley.
Are you guys talking about Milton “Small Sample Size Park Effects” Bradley, a/k/a The Overinflated Statistical Outlier a/k/a Mr. High-Hopes Dissapointer?
Yeah… I don’t like that guy that much.
That would make a great RAB handle, but I’m afraid it may not fit.
That and it would be ridiculous to happen…more of a Kenny Williams move.
If we’re trading Melky for Milton Bradley, the Cubs better be kicking in 20M of the 21M left on his deal for 2010 and 2011. Maybe then I’ll get on board.
31M of the 21 would do it for me, and then we get Melky back.
So basically for 10M we take him off their hands.
Granderson’s shortest HR to RF was 354 feet.
http://www.hittrackeronline.co.....8;sort=asc
Pat, what’s your Granddaddy homer prediction for 2010?
I’ve got 34.
Hmm, good question. 34 is a good base, I could see 36 or 37. That short porch is gonna do wonders for him.
We saw what the short porch did for Damon; Granddaddy has much more raw power. The only guys with more power on the roster are who? Swish, Tex? I’d have to think he has more power than Jorge, Cano, and Swisher. He could be a monster. The more I look at this deal, the more I like it.
That Arod guy can hit em pretty far.
Ha. I meant to write “A-Rod, Tex” and had Swish on the brain.
That A-Rod guy has some power…
Compare that to Damon’s short HR’s…
347′
348′
348′
354′
+
http://www.hittrackeronline.co.....8;sort=asc
The Yanks got a guy who:
1) hit more HR’s than any other CF last year (Kemp was 2nd with 26)
2) will fit in perfectly with YSIII
3) by all accounts is a great teammate and citizen
God-speed, AJax… but this deal had to be made.
Definitely. Gotta like this deal.
The Yanks got a guy who:
1) hit more HR’s than any other CF last year (Kemp was 2nd with 26)
2) will fit in perfectly with YSIII
3) by all accounts is a great teammate and citizen
4) needs to be platooned in CF because of his utter lack of ability to hit left-handed pitching
I just can’t warm up to this deal because of that point. I think the Yankees gave up a lot of value here….and for a guy that you know there is no way Girardi will let bat against lefties.
The Yankees didn’t get an everyday centerfielder. They got one half of a platoon. And they gave up a lot for it IMO.
I’m concerned about the lefty thing too, but Dave Cameron from fangraphs helped put my mind at ease here:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ent-112172
So, I know a lot of you guys are still big proponents of signing Cameron. I’m not opposed to it by any means, but does it make any less sense now that he wouldn’t be a “stopgap” for AJax?
He’s now a stopgap for Slade Heathcott. Or possibly Justin Upton.
Seriously, though, the fact that the “stopgap” part is gone doesn’t change the fact that he’d be productive on a one year deal, and now that Grandy’s here, he adds a new value of being the only outfielder not named Swisher who would hit lefty pitching well.
Yep. He still makes a ton of sense as a one-year player. Versatile, great defense, hits lefties, reasonable contract for 1-year? Sign me up.
That’s where I am on Cameron. I think he’d still be a great fit. Just curious to see if anyone’s opinion had changed.
Texas offered Justin Smoak and Neftali Feliz for Josh Johnson, and the Marlins said no!
That would have been bananas.
http://www.rootology.com/images/whoa.jpg
/flabbergasted
Texas doesn’t realize how much face it saved by Florida saying no. Like, really.
Wow. Both awesome prospects, but I’d have to think the Marlins don’t have the confidence in Feliz’s ability to start and/or are not thrilled with Smoak since he’s only a 1B.
Where is this?
http://tinyurl.com/ycvb2oh
Nevermind.
Somebody must love the Rangers in Miami.
Whoa, maybe they actually are trying to compete?
The offered the same to St. Louis for Brad Penny and were flatly denied also.
/obvious’d
Great post over at LoHud refuting many of the concerns people have about Granderson. I especially like the one on batting vs. lefties
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....omes-next/ (safe)
Paul O’Neill never had a sub-.500 OPS vs lefties, like Granderson has had in two of the last three years.
Point
But, splits are just that: slices of a player’s ability, so we’d expect Granderson to regress towards a mean, rather than maintain that going forwards. Additionally, he’s obviously a talented hitter, so maybe he can be worked with.
I don’t think he’ll ever be Robbie-esque and have a reverse split, but he can probably at least not kill you against LHP. And if he has to be sat against tough lefty starters, so be it.
Going to be fun to play the Phillies again in the World Series with our shiny new CFer… Then again I guess Cliff Lee dominated everyone who faced him anyway.
See, this argument might sway me, but I still refuse to believe Cliff Lee is any good.
(And the Yankees hit him fine in Game 5, just Burnett and the middle relief crapped the bed)
O’Neill for his whole career to that point (Sam Borden just mentions a couple of years earlier) was .217/.273/.327/.600
Granderson’s line is .210/.270/.344/.614
that means while the average O’Neill year was better, Granderson was ever so slightly better over the whole body of his work. They are/were more or less the same age (O’Neill was a year older). If Kevin Long can work out the kinks, this could turn out to be a steal
Bonus: Curtis Granderson would hit two homers for a sick kid in the hospital if asked, but they’d both be traditional homers and not an inside the parker.
And he wouldn’t complain about it either!
“I’d rather have Johnny Damon” This leads to the second part of the post — to me, getting Granderson doesn’t mean Johnny Damon is no longer an option for the Yankees at all.
Just wanted to make sure everyone here saw this, since it seems to be a popular rationale for hating on the Granderson deal.
Is it a “popular” rationale?
Or just Tony’s rationale?
Maybe it was just Tony repeating it several times…but I’m sure others thought it.
I don’t know. I would think the Yankees have some kind of plan for a platoon in their mind but I have to believe they’re going to try and let Granderson figure out his problems with LHP on his own too.
Dave Cameron loved the trade for us.
KLaw said the Yankees benefited from it.
Rob Neyer likes it too.
I’m glad they all approve, those guys are objective and know their shit.
Yeah, but I thought Cameron was a little too hard on AZ. They have serious questions about Sherzer’s health, and nobody knows a player better than the team that’s had him from Day 1.
Yanks aren’t done yet. They’re still a bit short on Starting pitching and will likely go after one of the high-upside injured guys as insurance.
Right now, the rotation (with Andy) would be:
CC
AJ
Pettitte
Joba
Hughes
If one of the young guys falter and/or someone gets hurt, you could add Gaudin and/or Mitre to the group. They could really use someone from the Harden/Sheets/Wang category. Preferably, someone who won’t be ready to start the season. This way you get a good look at everyone and then make decisions.
Sure, but why would Harden/Sheets sign up for that? Maybe Escobar or Wang would work.
Sign Escobar, Wang, and John Smoltz.
Smoltz for the 8th, baby.
I LOVE this.
Even Smoltz?
Sure, why not. He’d never accept a deal to come here, but IF he’d ever agree to join our pen, he’d be awesome in that role for us. And if not, cut his old ass.
Obviously they would all need to take minor league deals cause the Yankees can’t give up those spots on the 40 man.
That’s why you would do something like that, obviously very unlikely but nor much of a risk either.
Well, we have two more spots on the 40 man as of today.
And, we still have Wang and Edwar as probable non-tender guys, plus possibly Miranda, Mitre, and Garcia.
Right, someone from that category. Plug in any name you like, as long as he has some upside.
I like bringing back Wang. He wouldn’t be ready right away and you could get a good look at everyone else. But there could be a flexibility issue as well. For example, if Joba AND Hughes are both pitching well and nobody’s hurt, Wang wouldn’t be of much use out of the bullpen, whereas Harden or Escobar might fit well.
Wang fits this team’s needs and roster demands very well… provided there’s an actual chance that he can still pitch well.
Right, but that’s true of just about all of these guys. They’re all relative unknowns.
Best strategy: Get a lot of ‘em.
Sign Escobar, Wang, Lowry, and… wait for it… Mark Prior.
Mark who?
I suspect Prior’s arm is shot, to the point where it’d be a waste of money to bring him to camp.
I do hope he can get back to the majors, though.
We’ve got room and need for lottery tickets.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....hnson.html
Can the Yankees beat that ?
Joba and Montero is pretty close.
posted above
Agreed but is anyone convinced that the marlins are gonna stay with Johnson ?
I doubt they trade him.
Hughes, Montero, Romine/Zmac probably gets that done.
No. But the Sox can. Delcarmen, Lars, and Kelly.
Delcarmen could close in the NL.
. . . and now we get to enjoy that glittering analysis year-round on the MLB Network.
Can the Yankees beat that?
No.
Should the Yankees try to beat that?
No.
Bingo.
imagine the Tigers don’t protect Ajax in the rule v draft and we get him back?
that would be ideal !
He’s already on the 40 man, so they need to have a 40 man spot for him, else DFA him.
I think Dave Dombrowski is smarter than that.
(Although the Mets did lose Jesus Flores in the Rule V because they were confused as to the rules, and were unaware that he was eligible. What a joke of a franchise, huh?)
What do you guys think of maybe being able to get Soriano off the Braves by eating his salary?
It’s only one year… can offer him arbitration and have him possibly reject it next year, I like it.
Or he’ll accept it and make even more money.
He could, or someone will want him to close, offer him arbitration on how his season went. Yankees will know what to do when the time comes.
I don’t know if it fits into the budget, if they really are trying to trim payroll to the $185M-$190M range in 2010. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the payroll right now, prior to arbitration raises, is somewhere right around $170M. Add Pettitte (about $12M maybe?) to that, plus one of the LF/DH options, and you’re getting up there. Of course they may make a trade or cut some payroll in other ways, but I don’t know… I think Soriano looks like a pretty big expense that probably doesn’t fit either (1) the budget or (2) the operating philosophy.
what does it take to get Soriano from the Braves?
How many of the prospects that Detroit is recieving are rule V eligible and any players on their 40 man they may have to take off?
None.
Everyone involved with this deal, from all three teams, was already on their respective 40-man rosters.
149 159 142
Ok, wow, this deal moved very quickly. I love it.
Now that CF is shored up, I see a lot of folks still advocating for Cammy.
Here’s my question: While K’s are outs, not a big deal etc., and every player has holes in his game somehwere, do you think it’s a good idea to have three 140+K players as starters in the 2010 lineup?
Grandy’s avg K/162g is 149
Cammy’s 159
Swish’s 142
Now in a vacuum, when you’re considering any one *or two* of these guys, they shouldn’t be precluded because of K’s, while they have so much other offensive value, I’ve got to pause on a 3rd.
Especially because we were touting Cammy for his D 1st, saying that slightly above average O coming out of CF was a boon for the Yanks.
Doesn’t Grandy fit this bill as well? Doesn’t his value take a significant hit if he’s not playing CF?
Why would Cammy still make sense?
oops, didn’t mean to leave the #’S @ the top of my post, just put them there for reference.
Why would Cammy still make sense?
Mike Cameron v LHP, career:
.267/.370/.489 (.859)
But you’re not talking about platooning him w/ Abuelo, are you?
No. I’m talking about starting them side by side.
However, he does allow us to quasi-platoon Granderson by playing Cameron-Granderson together against righties and Melky-Cameron against lefties, if we so chose.
Fair enough, but I raised the concern in my post just below about having 33% of your starting 9 be extremely K prone, or 22% – Abuelo + Melky.
Also curious what you think about the HighPower+OBP coupled w/ K’s skill set being less desirable in the postseason?
& I’m not saying these players can’t succeed, just perhaps having 3 of them @ once could detract from a well-balanced offensive attack against premium pitching.
Also curious what you think about the HighPower+OBP coupled w/ K’s skill set being less desirable in the postseason?
Is that a statistically verfied theory?
Well, we had one of the lowest K totals in the league last year. We’d also have an outfield of 3 guys hitting 25-35 home runs. You can forgive Swisher and Camron’s Ks if their OBPs remain high. Granddaddy hits 35 home runs and strikeouts are irrelevant. It’s not ideal, but three power guys are going to K a lot. The good with the bad.
Yeah, I guess, it just seems like three times that flavor is a little much.
33% of the lineup being extremely K prone wigs me a little bit.
Plus, in the postseason you want your team to be as well-rounded as possible. While Swish was awesome in 09, he sputtered in the playoffs, and while I’m not saying he’s “unclutch” or anything silly like that, I’m suggesting that the Power/OBP+High K total skill set might be less translatable to postseason success.
If that’s true, then tripling it is a bad idea.
Wow, I can’t believe this username wasn’t taken!
Thanks, Tommie.
I give because I love.
I’ll expect a hefty royalty payments arrangement, of course.
You got it, buddy (though I altered it a bit).
Warning: The RABbis asked me to shorten my name when mine was that long. It messes with the site, or something. Be advised.
Ok, thanks for the heads up. This should fit.
That was a shame.
I really enjoyed “Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non-Sequitur Jones”
I’ll bring it back at some point.
I’m planning on going with a rotation of Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones, Ridiculous Upside, and Archimedes Torquemada. Whatever mood strikes me.
There may be one or two more I’m working on.
Archimedes Toquemada sounds like a Gabriel García Márquez character.
Wholeheartedly approve.
Yeah, like he was a character in “One Hundred Years in the Time of Cholera.”
Best
Screen name
EVER!!!!!
we don’t need Cameron IMO, but i do think we need another Corner OF with a nice bat. Melky won’t cut it and if Damon returns he will probably DH the majority of the time.
I agree that the Yankees don’t need Cameron. But I have to say he makes the most sense, and that’s relatively easy to see.
we don’t need Cameron IMO, but i do think we need another Corner OF with a nice bat.
Agreed.
You know who is a good corner OF with with a nice bat? Mike Cameron.
I thought Granderson stole more bases.
I want a repeat of 2007!
s the Yankees, Astros and Orioles have interest in Soriano. Braves GM Frank Wren confirmed to O’Brien that at least one team has interest in both Soriano and Derek Lowe.
Presumably the ‘Stros aren’t said team since they don’t want to add much payroll. The O’s?
what does it take to get soriano straight up? swisher?
Hell
Fucking
No
not saying i would do that trade. hell no, i just want an idea of what people think it would take to land him, and would he be willing to set up MO?
It would problably take a Z-Mac or Romine, maybe even less- we’d be taking salary.
in that case i totally do it
The Braves want to shed his payroll, it shouldn’t take a ton.
Eric Wordekemper.
There’s that name again. That clunky, un-roll-off-your-toungue-able, four-syllable name.
I’m really hoping Marcos Vechionacci stays with the team. I want a backup in case Wordekemper actually departs.
I might consider trading Swisher — if the Yankees hadn’t just traded away their best OF prospect in the high minors.
Seriously, who holds that title now? Colin Curtis? Yikes.
Slade Heathcott?
HIGH minors.
woops
Per Sherman, the payroll is currently around 175. I think staying under 200 is a chance but I think they end up right around it.
melky would do it.
No Lowe….doesn’t fit payroll objective.
That would be great to get both Soriano and Lowe it fits perfectly for the Yanks, a number 3 or 4 starter and Soriano in the pen with Mo and either Joba or Hughes
Lowe is too expensive
true but i really like the idea of Lowe and Soriano
Lowe wouldn’t be better than any of the 5 starters we already have. He’d be behind CC-AJ-Joba-Hughes, and Pettitte (or Sheets or whomever else we sign) would be better than him too.
Pass.
Brian Cashman has balls of titanium. He seriously needs an appreciation thread.
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ead-18026/
HAHA thanks man. I completely forgot about that. Seems like it was so long ago!
Oh yeah. The start of the season felt like 10 years ago.
HEY ! HEY! A lot has happened since then!
http://www.usposttoday.com/wp-.....s-2009.jpg
My point exactly.
+42
Everyday is Cashman appreciation day
in my pants.Well hello…
… you pointed to your BOOBIES!!!
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....rance.html
This Soriano stuff is maddening. Atlanta paper say Yanks, Sox, O’s and Astros are in. Sherman says the Yanks are out. Now Boston’s out, and the O’s were said to not be interested yesterday.
I think Wren is spreading these rumors himself, to generate interest. I suspect NOBODY wants to pay Soriano 8 mil for next year, and Wren was simply caught with his pants down by offering him arb.
I make a deal if they take on some of that payroll
+1
Platoon against lefty pitching… Nady? .308 BA, .383 OBP .852 OPS. Not bad.
Will he even be ready to play by the start of the season?
Thats the same question I asked but I remember the Braves and the Cards being interested.
They’re the Braves and Cards. They’re desperate.
I don’t even think a platoon is necessary; just some good fresh coaching with a new perspective and oh yeah that little league right field helps too. But since people want to throw out scenario’s, I threw this one out.
The dude is an amputee candidate. Pass (but I like the idea in theory).
and slide Melky to center on days when there is a lefty?
I don’t know.
Mike Cameron is the way. He really is a perfect fit.
I couldn’t agree more. But if they are looking for a guy who hits lefties and probably won’t be capable of playing 145 games next year he’s an ideal and cheap candidate to gamble on.
I wonder if Nady is in the Yankees plans. I keep forgetting about him. If he is ready, he would be a nice DH option as well.
(see comment above) Total speculation.
Exactly. That’s why I said IF he’s healthy. But if he is, it wouldn’t be a terrible idea in my mind. Or we can work out a trade and get something decent in return.
Mike Cameron is Xavier Nady, minus the health risks, plus better flexibility.
Cameron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nady
Exactly. Signing Cameron makes all the sense in the world.
BTW-I hated Phil Coke as much as the next good red-blooded American, but . . . who’s our 2nd Lefty out of the pen next year? Mike Dunn?
and when Marte spends his customary 2 months on the DL next year, who’s our FIRST Lefty?
David Robertson is a beast against lefties if I am thinking correctly.
Marte will probably be the only lefty in the pen to start out. He WILL stay healthy all year
You’re right about D-Rob, but you really want someone who throws from the left side with a good breaking pitch for certain match ups.
And there’s zero reason to believe Marte will somehow become Cal Ripken next year. We could use a good Lefty.
Ron Mahay.
/laughs
Marte and Mahay
It rhymes, therefore it makes sense.
yup he’s next on the depth chart
1) Marte
2) Dunn
3) WDLR
4) Kroenke (if he’s not taken, or after he’s taken and returned)
5) Bleich
6) Pat Venditte
Your mind, it is blown.
I thought his velo/stuff was better from the right side?
Shhhhh, you’re ruining my high.
Frickin’ refresh (I swear I came up with it all on my own).
1) MELVIN
Your mind, it is orgasmic.
Melvin is not on any depth charts. He’d be #1 through #1000, and then everyone else would start at #1001.
It’s a waste of paper/pixels.
Pat V.
But seriously, WDLR, Dunn (that scares me), someone from Rule V, Bleich, Kroenke (if he’s not picked up in Rule V) are candidates.
Not sure who the frontrunner is. Any good FA possibilities?
Why’d you hate Coke? Sure he had his bad moments but he was generally a decent leftie out of the pen.
Bruney was gone, meaning the Yanks saved some cash and I would need a new reliever to despise (early favorite: Phil Coke).
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....aft-20911/
Just piggybacking on this comment from earlier today
Ah, all right.
Charlie Brown Christmas, ftw!
I’M WATCHING.
http://demotivationalz.com/wp-.....pslock.jpg
It was for EMPHASIS!
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2.....k-comment/
Is it wrong to laugh at this?
It’s never wrong to laugh at stupidity*.
(*Non-Mental handicap Division)
ATTN: TSJC: I’m not saying the Yankees should get Bradley, but it’s worth noting that in ’08 w/the Rangers, he had an .872 OPS outside of Arlington.
But, then again, he sucked monkey balls outside of Wrigley in ’09.
And, that ’08 season is the only one where he really had a noticeably above average road split. Even that one road split looks like an outlier.
Milton Bradley just isn’t that good of a player. He’s a decent bat, but he’s not an elite bat (while he’s paid like one), and he’s horrid defensively, and he’s injury prone.
If he was making 4-5M, sure, whatevs. Dude’s making 9M this coming year and 12M after that.
All kinds of PASS.
All this… Plus he’s f*cking insane. I mean, I know we don’t love to get into personality matters around these parts, but this guy is a problem. Not worth it in any way.
That too.
I’d be willing to put up with Barry Bonds’s insanity, because he’d hit the shit out of the ball.
Milton Bradley: Not Barry Bonds
Totally… And the Yankees: Not the Rangers (or any other mid-market type team). Some other team should probably gamble on Bradley, but the Yankees don’t have to take a chance like that. It’s just not worth it to the Yankees.
Huge, instantaneous and irrevocable PASS on Bradley in pinstripes.
One thing about this deal that is understated is the clearing out of guys like IPK and Coke (Along with Bruney), who were holding down spots that could be used for Melancon Z-Mac, Dunn, and eventually Mitchell and Stoneburner.
With the clearing out of all this dead wood. I would not be shocked in the least, to see the Yankees really have a bang up draft, and possibly set this team in good shape for the next 5 years.
So in theory, this trade could open the door wide for Matsui especially if 1) Damon doesn’t come back and 2) Cameron isn’t wearing pinstripes. Right? Some of us love some of us hate Melky but I think that most people would agree that his production just isn’t enough out.
I agree with this. Melky just is not enough. Sorry. He’s a good 4th OF option or possibly trade bait, but I just don’t see him starting next year. I think he had a great year in ’09 and I’m not saying he won’t do the same. I just don’t think he was ever in the Yankees long-term plans.
Thats why I wouldn’t be sad to see him traded while his value is as high as it probably ever will be. Funny to think how greedy we are as fans. What more can we ask for? He’s a decent number 9 hitter. Meh. Whatever.
But Matsui is a great number five hitter.
Well. We know this. We’ll see where it goes. (See my dream comment about Adam Dunn)
We subtracted
We subtracted
Melky’s numbers are feeble as a corner outfielder, but given Granderson outperforms as a CF, it’s not too much of a drop-off from Damon… Considering he’s still young, cheap, and a full-time OF to keep the DH slot open for Jorge etc., I would just let Damon go now… Then maybe draft the Twins OF in the Rule 5 for depth? Look to sign Matsui 1yr@5-7M if he wants to come back as full time DH, and use 5-10M on a Sheets, Harden, Marquis…. Still shaves 10M off 2008 payroll…
So, with the exit of Jackson, who else are you guys excited to watch in the minors this season?
Obviously, The Jesus is number one on my list.
2. Romine
3. Heathcott
4. Warren
5. Banuelos
6. Noesi
7. Murphy
8. Brackman
Viz, DeLeon, Dellin, CoJo are high on my list, too.
Is Betances pitching next year?
Yep. He had the same surgery Mo had way back when, I believe. But it was not TJ surgery.
Ah. It was reported as TJS. Thanks for the update. That’s who I am watching for.
He actually has 2 ligaments in his elbow. For real, they repaired his original with the Mo surgery, and they also performed TJ with another ligament.
Seriously
You’re fucking kidding me. Wow, that’s something else. My expectations are a bit more tempered now. Unreal upside but probably a really low probability.
The same surgery Mo had?
Ths man should treasure the scar he gets from the surgery. It is akin to the stigmata of of Jesus in Christian theology.
Comment of the day.
Thank you, thank you. Remember to tip your waitresses.
Yeah, Dellin needs a bounce back year big time. CoJo’s definitely one to watch as well. As Nostra said below, Sanchez, too. I really think Warren’s gonna be a fast mover.
Cojo had a dirty OBP for a HS kid in his first full season. Heck, his whole slash line was good but the OPB to BA contrast is what sticks out .300/.380/.418. I love seein a young kid with a good eye.
Definitely.
Cojomultipass…..at least that’s what it should be.
Co-sign. Can we just shorten it and call him Multipass?
.81 BB/K in his career (incl. ’08 in the GCL).
The Viz. Definitely.
Nobody Beats The Viz! (Whatever happened to that store?)
DAMN YOUZ! DAMN YOUZ ALL TA HELL!
Nobody beats him.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/bla.....ld-wiz.jpg (safe)
You better put Gary Sanchez on that list. Sorry I mean, Jestin Romtero.
He’s still in the DR, though. Any guess when he arrives?
He arrives in 2010, no doubt.
GCL, SI? I’ll make a deal with you? If he’s around NYC/Jersey, I’ll watch him play a few times and send back a report.
If you see him down in FLA, you do the same. Deal?
Without a doubt. He was there when I went to the GCL games last summer, but he wasn’t allowed to participate because his contract started in 2010 because of his age. He was a batboy. A $3 million batboy.
Haha. That’s excellent. We have a frickin’ glut of guys at C. Sanchez at Staten Island or GCL, Murphy at Low A, Higgy at Hi-A(?), Romine at AA, Montero at AAA.
Just wow. Four guys with REALLY high ceilings.
But it’s too many catchers!!!111!!
No Arod?
You mean Arold?
Nope…
Arod…
….ys Vizcaino.
Gotcha. Yeah, I think he’s more popularly referred to as “Viz.”
I, for one, am really psyched for him.
TSJC, this one’s for you. Rather than expound this in the cozy nest 100 or so comments ago, I’ll put it right here.
My theory: The skill set relying on OBP+Power, with 125+K/year, at the expense of BA is likely to be exposed in the postseason, due to the smaller amount of PAs, and taking them against premium pitching.
My point: Since we already have two of these guys in our starting lineup in Abuelo & Swish, that’s 22% of the lineup that sports all the risks that this skill set raises. Ergo, we should not pursue Cammy, thus committing another 11% of the lineup to the same description.
My crudimentary research has yielded thusly:
Note: I am not a subscriber to baseball reference, so my search criteria was met with limited accessibility. Nor is this kind of thing my forte, but I was curious.
Ok, so I thought of McGwire & Schmidt off the top of my head, and ran a search in B-R for OPS leaders coupled with <.275 BA & further weeded through to over 125K/year. Also precluded anyone w/ <100 postseason ABs.
Mark McGwire:
162 game reg. season averages: .263/.394/.588/.982 138K
Postseason: 151 PA .217/.320/.349/.669 33K 21.9K%
Now it’s unfair to use cumulative postseason #’s due to the sporadic PAs & the SSS. To break it down, Big Mac had 7 postseasons in which he underperformed, and 3 in which he out-performed his career averages, for a net postseason underperformance.
Mike Schmidt:
162: .267/.380/.527/.908 127K
Post: 158 PA .236/.304/.386/.690 27K 17.1K%
For Schmiddty, he had 5 underperforming postseasons to 3 mean or outperforming ones. Net underperformance.
Jose Canseco:
162: .266/.353/.515/.867 167K
Post: 124 PA .184/.315/.398/.713 28K 22.9K%
Canseco had 5 underperformances to 3 mean or outperformances, although one of the unders he only got 1 AB, so it’s more like 4 to 3. Net underperformance.
Darryl Strawberry:
162: .259/.357/.505/.862 138K
Post: 145 PA .254/.345/.500/.845 38K 26.1K%
Straw had 4 underperformances to 6 mean or outperformances. Net wash.
Reggie Jackson:
162: .262/.356/.490/.846 149K
Post: 318 PA .278/.358/.527/.885 70K 22K%
Mr. October had 7 underperformances to 9 mean or outperformances. Net outperformance.
Jay Buhner
162: .254/.359/.494/.852 155K
Post: 98 PA *missed the cutoff, but he weighs in against my theory, & the 2 PA are negligible right* .306/.398/.624/1.021 28K 28.6K%
Buhner only had 2 subpar Postseasons, compared to 5 beastly ones. Big time net outperformance.
So we’ve got three guys who underperformed, and three guys who played to their mean level or beyond.
I’ve got to say I’m tired of doing this, so I’m going to stop after the three guys I’m talking about.
Mike Cameron
162: .250/.340/.448/.788 159K
Post: 112 PA .174/.309/.272/.581 29K 25.9K%
5 underperformances for Cammy to 1 outperformance. Net under.
Nick Swisher
162: .245/.357/.460/.818 142K
Post: 89 PA .155/.318/.254/.572 23K 25.8K%
Swish has underperformed 5 times to 1 outperformance. Net under.
Curtis ‘Abuelo’ Granderson
162: .272/.344/.484/.828 149K
Post: 59 PA .226/.288/.491/.779 10K 16.9K%
He’s only been in the Postseason in 06, and his WS #’s really dragged down excellent performances in the CS & DS. SSS abound, net wash.
In this limited sampling, I’ve got to say I’m thinking my theory doesn’t hold much water for guys that are excellent offensive threats, as all are on this list. All, that is, except for Cammy.
Cammy is the least offensive of any of these guys. IMO he would add more risk than he is worth, now that we have Abuelo.
Noooooooooo! WHYYYYY?! I’m reposting, though I hate to do that.
Dellin is one of my favorites so I hope he can return from his injury and do well. Same for Brett Marshall.
Adam Warren, Heredia, and Aroldis Chapman.
L Viz,
Jairo Heredia
Nik Turley
Gary Sanchez
Kelvin Duran & De Leon
Jose Ramirez
L Viz,
Jairo Heredia
Nik Turley
Gary SanchezJestin RomteroKelvin Duran & De Leon
Jose Ramirez
Fixed it for ya.
Who the hell is L-Viz?
Do you mean the incredible, pedro-lite Arodys Vizcaino.
It would be sweet if Heredia could stay Herealthy the whole year.
Here’s another name: Sosa (toolsy guy, struggled last year).
McAllister and Stoneburner
I don’t care what anyone says. I’m gonna keep watching Pat V. closely.
I’m almost an hr late to the question of the night. Aw well.
My list:
1. Jesus Montero
2. Heathcott
3. Brax
4. Man-Ban
5. Nova
6. Z-Mac (who gets the Show first? Mc or Nova?)
7. JR Murphy
8. Adam Warren (’cause he’s going to fly up the ladder)
9. 8ht inning phenom (any # of guys)
Honorable mention: The FAT Sanchezes
I don’t think finding a LF is that much of a priority now. If we’re getting 30 or 35 hr from CF we can afford to a guy like Melky in LF as long as he’s playing good defense there. Grandy in CF and Melky in LF. Basicalli with Grandy in Cf instead of Damon in LF we’re taking out a 2.2 WAR and replacing it with a 3.4
That being said, I’d still be down with signing Cammy and making Melk the 4th OF and starting him over Granderson against really tough lefties.
I don’t know why, but I like the idea of trimming payroll by 20 million or so.
Can that realistically be done,though? Pettitte still isn’t signed.
It’s approximately at 175 right now with Granderson Sherman says.
So add Pettitte only and the Yanks could do it. But I think they need to add more than that.
Maybe you think having the largest payroll by appx. $50M is unfair?
I’d like to see it down because apparently the Yankees buy all their championships and it would be funny seeing them closer to the payrolls of Boston.
I would think Melky would be able to take some of those ABs from Granderson when there is a lefty on the mound.
I know that charachter plays a minimal role (at best) in whether a team wins or loses. (See late 80′s Oakland A’s). I also know that a player who appears to have great character may actually be a total douche. (See Woods, Tiger).
But, as a fan, I feel like I am really going to enjoy rooting for Granderson. He is widely respected as one of the best guys in the game.
Combine Granderson with CC, Nick-y Swish, Tex, Captain Jetes, and this might just be the most likeable Evil Empire team yet.
(Of course, I will admire him all the more if he helps us win).
I don’t know if anything I’ve heard or read this week about Tiger Woods makes me think he’s a total douche. He just shouldn’t be married if he wants to bang Perkins waitresses. His only problem is that he’s not being honest with himself and his wife. It’s really nobody else’s business who he sleeps with.
But he is married. I’m still a Tiger Woods fan, and a big one, because I never cared if he was a douche or not, but if you’re banging nine mistresses behind your wife’s back, you’re a douche.
Do we really know (or care to) all the details of his personal life and/or marriage? It’s so easy to attack him right now, but I learned a looooonnngg time ago to never judge other people’s relationships. You usually wind up finding something out later that explains things. Not always, but usually.
It was the worst kept secret in Orlando that Tiger was banging other chicks. His wife knew. She didn’t give a shit until it became public news, then she went crazy.
I especially liked the stuff about A-Rod’s wife being a victim, when the two of them were known for frequenting Swingers Clubs across the country.
True. If something comes out that makes it at least borderline acceptable for him to bang nine mistresses behind wifie’s back, then I’ll rescind the douche comment.
Pure speculation, but his wife just gave birth to his 2nd child. It’s not uncommon that a couple’s sex life grinds to a halt after a few kids for a variety of reasons. That’s very common, and Tiger has an uncommon amount of opportunities to sleep around as a superstar celebrity. Also he’s not home for months at a time, given the work he does.
You know what? If the excuse is that the kid’s giving him stress, I have LESS respect for him.You have children dude, stop banging random girls.
One of the ironies to him nailing so many girls in the service industry is he’s chided as being the worst celebrity tipper.
I GOT YA TIP RIGHT HERE!! Oooohhhhhhh!!!!
Was that an Andrew Dice Clay? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicey nicey.
Ha… I’d be on board with this becoming a running gag. Just pop in as the Diceman and make a comment like that every once in a while, when it’s totally irrelevant and out of left field.
He just shouldn’t be married if he wants to bang Perkins waitresses.
Agreed.
However, he shouldn’t want to bang Perkins waitresses. After all, he’s Tiger Woods, not JMK the Overshare.
Apparently you’ve never had the “Rooti Tooti Fresh & Fruity” done to you by a Perkins waitress.
ahem . . . ahhhh . . no comment.
All I can say is it feels like hot chocolate chip pancakes in your peehole.
That… Sounds painful.
Pain is pleasure. The batter emitted after the pain has subsided is incredible. It has the consistency of flubber.
MOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN
Speechless. Nauseous.
I stand duly chastised.
More guys who are likeable: Mariano, Andy and Robertson. The only guys they have who seem to rub others the wrong way are A-Rod and Joba. That is a prime reason why I don’t want guys like Bradley, Manny, Pedro, Padilla or Penny on my team.
As for the A’s of the 80s, for all of their talent (McGwire, Canseco, Stewart, Eck, LaRussa in the dugout etc), they only won ONE title. The 70s A’s with Reggie, Catfish, Fingers etc, were the great A’s teams.
So, time for more theoretical thoughts. Adam Dunn please? I know I can only dream. Just something that crossed my mind and I thought I’d share the dream with you all.
I wish, but there’s no need to trade for a DH.
Oh man. Remember that golf shot/Monster off CMW? It gives me wet dreams.
(Cue Tiger Woods jokes)
i remember his shot in Shea off the scoreboard
Can’t say I do but I can only imagine. I would love to have him bat fifth and DH. Ahh but you can only dream.
I remember the one in Shea too.
I also remember the one in Citi, the longest ever hit there to date I believe.
video?
I hate the MLB(dot)com search feature for the video highlights, but here ya go I searched for you alex S:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=4759465
Oh. My. Mo.
That must of went 450 feet right?
I wish, but there’s no need to trade for a DH.
I have nothing to add, I just want to repeat this louder to make sure everyone heard.
He’s a FA next year.
But…. I WANT TEHHH DUNNN NOW!!!1!!!111!!!
…Too bad.
/Captain Murphy’d
they really don’t have a reason to trade him. he might be the only reason people actually show up to their park
Strasburg. And of course the ever so popular former Yankee great- Pudge.
Until Strasburg shows up.
strasburg isn’t close to the majors is he?
He might be there in April. Yeah, he’s close.
Yeah. Unless he has a massive setback or injury, Strasburg will be in Washington by right around the ASB, methinks.
I found this very encouraging
(Hat tip to poster Shaun P. @ bronxbanter)
“As bad as Granderson has been vs LHP (career vs RHP: .292/.367/.528, career vs LHP: .210/.270/.344), let’s keep in mind that Comerica park is a very bad park for left-handed hitters.
To whit:
Granderson vs LHP at home, career: .179/.231/.259
Granderson vs LHP on the road, career: .239/.306/.425″
While a .731 OPS is no great shakes, it’s a wonderful improvement over the sub .500 OPS he posted @ Comerica.
Favorable statistic for bounceback from Grandy: BABIP last year was only .275.
very cool stat find.
Comerica gave Granderson no home-field advantage for sure.
Okay, now I understand why the Nets have 1 win. Dooling just missed what looked to be a wide open layup.
Mike, isn’t tomorrow………PROSPECT PROFILE TIME!!!!! yayayayayayayayayayayyy.
Who will it be? I’m giddy with excitement.
PREDICTION: The prospect profile will be . . . . drum roll please. . . . . .
Nik Turley. You heard it here first.
Yes, yes it is. I’ll give you a hint: it’s not a 2009 draftee, like the last two.
JESTIN ROMTERO!?!!?!?!
Rene Tosoni?
(too soon?)
Dec. 10: the Yankees trade (extra reliever) to the Nats for their Rule V pick and take Tosoni.
I almost feel partially responsibility for this. I touted him in the Rule V thread the other day after scouring the net for Rule V info.
MLB goes by age on June 5th before signing. It’s five seasons (not years in organization) if the player is 18 on June 5th. Tosoni was 18 on June 5th, 2005 but his first season was 2006, since he signed in May 2006. His actual 5th season will be in 2010, so he’s eligible in 2010 for Rule V.
It’s a strange circumstance and I didn’t realize how weird it was.
Andy, your enthusiasm is infectious. I feel myself about ready to throw my hands in the air and
\o/
Uh oh.
I don’t like this trade at all. I’m not saying that there isn’t room for improvement in the Yankees’ outfield, but I will say that it should not be the first thing to consider for an upgrade by way of making a trade of our available prospects.
If anything, the prospects being given up should be devoted towards an enticing package used to trade for Florida Marlins ace Josh Johnson. With AJax, IPK, & Coke, we could add either Hughes/Joba, along with Montero & another prospect if need be in order to get another top-of-the-rotation starter.
Cashman, when asked of his priorities this off-season, stated pitching, pitching, & pitching, & then the outfield.
Don’t even get me started on Granderson’s stats for the previous 2 years. Sure, he can use a change of scenery, but, if asked on how to best utilize the farm’s resources, Josh Johnson would be my 1st, 2nd, & 3rd options.
Nuff said.
“but, if asked on how to best utilize the farm’s resources, Josh Johnson would be my 1st, 2nd, & 3rd options.”
Felix anyone?
I’d give up both Joba and Hughes for Felix.
I wouldn’t. Not that Felix isn’t that awesome but just because the Yankees can just wait it out till Felix is a FA.
When Yankees sign Felix – Felix/Joba/Hughes/Montero >>>>> Felix without whoever the Yankees give up.
See my comment directly below. Exclusive negotiation rights.
Okay…
If he doesn’t make it to FA, there will be others. I am not too fond of dealing Joba or Hughes for him because Yankees already have a great rotation. Also, I have faith Joba and Hughes will be solid MLB starters.
Well sure having two solid MLB starters is great but a talent like Felix doesn’t come around very often.
Why would you give away the world for Felix when he is FA next year. Sheets or Harden can easily fill that void for a year. Hell Pettitte might only be back for one year. So there will be spots open in the rotation. No reason to give up so much for one year.
Next year or the year after? I thought it was the year after. Plus if you have him in your possession you have exclusive negotiating rights on a contract extension. Also worth taking note of, he said he is looking for $100m.
Felix still has 2 years of team control and thats not my trade proposal he’s saying he wants to give away the farm for Josh Johnson but I’m saying if i had to give those guys away i would only do it for Felix
You did see the trade that the Marlins turned down… didn’t you? They are pretty held-bent on not trading him.
If anything, the prospects being given up should be devoted towards an enticing package used to trade for Florida Marlins ace Josh Johnson. With AJax, IPK, & Coke, we could add either Hughes/Joba, along with Montero & another prospect if need be in order to get another top-of-the-rotation starter.
Trading AJax/IPK/Coke for Granderson and keeping Joba, Hughes, and Montero
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trading AJax/IPK/Coke AND one of Joba/Hughes AND Montero for “another top of the rotation starter”
Your trade proposal sucks.
actually he mentioned trading Ajax/IPK/Coke/Hughes or Joba/Montero AND another prospect
Dats what I said.
Furthermore, before this deal happened:
Another outfielder: a need
Another top of the rotation starter: not a need
Spending less to fill a need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spending more to fill a non-need
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....-big-trade
If anything, the prospects being given up should be devoted towards an enticing package used to trade for Florida Marlins ace Josh Johnson. With AJax, IPK, & Coke, we could add either Hughes/Joba, along with Montero & another prospect if need be in order to get another top-of-the-rotation starter.
Josh Johnson is not available right now.
Stop bogging us down in details. Look at the big picture, MAN!!
Doesn’t anybody else think that Granderson’s stats are going to go up simply because he will probably be batting in front of Mark Teixeira? I have been kind of assuming that well see a similar situation that we had going when A-Rod started batting behind Teix…
I love the move. Jackson is the only guy that we’re going to miss here, and quite frankly, I was never in the camp that saw him becoming anything more than average.
I’d still like to see us go after a David DeJesus type player that can provide great defense in left field and a pretty solid bat, he averaged a .281 average and a .354 OBP over the last year while hitting more than ten big flies a year over the last three seasons. That would allow us to use Johnny as the DH, and I personally like the idea of being able to use Johnny as the LF and DeJesus as the CF with the previous mentioned lefty thumper as the DH when we face lefties to avoid Granderson’s instant-out situation.
Eh, I don’t think they’ll go for another trade this off-season. I bet this is the only big trade the Yankees make before July ’10.
DeJesus all the way for me! What an OF that would be. DeJesus, Granderson, and Swish. Awesome Defense, Young, & CHEAP! But do we have enough for a trade? What would they ask in return?
I don’t think they have the pieces to do that deal now.
All I want is Pettitte, Cameron, and Aroldis.
Is that too much to ask?
What would that cost, 35 million?
Probably more than that. Cameron is probably about $10 million. Andy is about $13 mil. Chaphombre is probably around $20 mil.
Furthermore, in terms of overall production and total cost:
Mike Cameron >>>>>>> David DeJesus
Yeah for a year. He’s older and I’m sorry, I just don’t like the amount of strikeouts between Cameron, Swish, and Granderson. That scares me. DeJesus is young, talented, and can offer longevity. That is…if the Yankees don’t plan on pursuing someone like Carl Crawford next year. Which is totally possible of course.
Cameron offsets the strikeouts with walks and home runs, as do Swisher and Granderson.
I gotta go with Dee here. Granderslam (Yeah, it’s been Sterlingized) and Swish are going to have a lot of strikeouts. And personally, I have to wonder if Cameron will be able to handle American League pitching. As we have been able to see when an AL pitcher goes to the NL and gets better, it’s a clear picture that the offensive talent isn’t great there.
I have to wonder if the Mike Cameron we’re thinking we’ll get is kind of like when we expect an NL pitcher to come over and be as good. Bill James is predicting big time lows for him as well, a .237/.328/.428 slash and 171 strikeouts.
Cameron might not be the guy to go to here…
For the Sterling call, I suggest:
“A dandy from Grandy!”
Yeah, I am forced to agree. But you know for arguments sake, the ole sentimental Yankee Fan in me looked up the stats, and you know who is a great lefty thumper? Hideki Matsui.
He batted more than ten points higher, hitting just two less home runs and drove in two more runs against left handed pitching than he did against right handed pitching. And he had two hundred less plate appearances against left handers than he did against right handers. That is pretty insane considering that the guy is a left handed batter.
I think the guy we wind up kicking ourselves over in this deal is Ian Kennedy, not Austin Jackson. I bet he does well in the NL West and in that ballpark. I’ll be rooting for him, I’ve always been a fan of his.
I agree.
Counterargument: Ross Ohlendorf did well in the NL Central and in his ballpark, and that doesn’t make me miss him at all. I’m not saying they’re equitable (IPK is clearly MUCH better), but his success in a weaker league and easier park shouldn’t really change our perspective on him.
Just how he would have done here, which I think will be “solid, but probably just a #4 at best.”
FWIW.
Counter-counter argument: Ross Ohlendorf created a game theory-based algorithm to calculate the value of each heckler’s comments to the performance of the athlete being heckled.
He saved the Pirates TONS of money. Aaaaaand he’s never been to a Perkins.
I meant to say that DeJesus averaged those stats over the last three years, not last year.
So I assume this will be yankees only significant trade this offseason.
We can only hope.
This, Halladay and inevitable Josh Johnson and King Felix deals.
You left out the deals for Miguel Cabrera and Adrian Gonzalez.
We’re trading for every player on the market, because we have to keep everyone away from Boston.
Sincerely,
mryankee
HAHAHA IETCVVM
Like my lineup?
Andy Pettitte?
What, no John Lackey?
Fuck. What was I thinking? How are we supposed to win any games WITHOUT JOHN LACKEY!?!!?
Also: What the hell are you doing with Cano in your lineup? His lazy ass should be traded for prospects (before he has no value at all) and we should sign Mark DeRosa to play 2B.
2010
Rotation
CC Sabathia
Roy Halladay
Josh Johnson
Felix Hernandez
AJ Burnett
Andy Pettitte
Bullpen
Mo
Joba
Hughes
D-Rob
Marte
Lineup
SS-Jeter
CF-Granderson
1B-Teixeira
3B-A-Rod
LF-Matt Holiday
2B-Cano
C-Posada
DH/DH-Matsui/Damon
RF-Swisher
GET IT DONE, CASH-BOY!!!!!
If I do it in a video game, does that prove I’m better than Cashman?
I am sure they will be in on Halladay but I don’t think they will pull the trigger if it takes more than Joba or Hughes plus anyone named Montero or McCallister.
What about signing Cameron for LF/CF then also picking up DeRosa for a super utility job for whenever someone DH’s – this will give a lot of veteran players the rest they need, while also providing average defense and above average with DeRosa to fill in those positions.
Jeter – Grand – Tex – Nails – Posada – Cano – Swish – Cam – DeRosa
This will be the lineup everyday of course with many switched between who plays the field and who DH’s. Pretty nice right??
Then sign Pettitte and hopefuly Sheets (if affordable) and call it an offseason.
28
No to DeRosa.
Frankie J and I don’t get the obsession with this guy.
Um, I’m like 99% certain I’m the first one to say I don’t get the DeRosa love.
Credit, plz.
You receive one Dave and Buster’s token.
+1
I’m not sure Cameron signs here. He’ll only get a 1 year deal from us, and no guarantee of playing time. Guys like him want to play so the can show they still have value, so a starting gig on a bad team makes more sense for him. I’m sure he wants another contract next off season as well.
He would play LF vs. righties and CF vs. lefties. He’d be playing the majority of the time.
I’m not sure Cameron signs here. He’ll only get a 1 year deal from us, and no guarantee of playing time.
He’d only not be guaranteed playing time if we signed him AND Damon AND Matsui.
If we sign him by himself, he’s guaranteed to play every day. If we sign him AND one of Damon or HazMat, he’s still guaranteed to play every day.
You have Melky and Gardner on the bench. I think Cash would like some cheap flexible players somewhere on the roster, and LF is as good a spot as any.
I think Cash would like some cheap flexible players somewhere on the roster, and LF is as good a spot as any.
Another spot that’s as good as any: The bench.
No math, but a little bit of torture in that post. Had you worked in an algorithm somewhere it could have been perfect.
I counted the number of spots.
That’s a type of math.
The more I think about it, the more signing Cameron makes PERFECT sense. First of all our OF defense would be the off-the-charts batshit insane, but besides that Cameron is the perfect guy to play against leftie pitchers.
So on days you face righties you can stick Cameron in LF, Granderson in CF, and Swishy in RF. And on days you face lefties just slide Cameron over and move Melky to LF.
Not to mention he’s above average vs. righties too.
And the best part? He costs only money.
I REALLY hope they sign him for a year.
The d would be so nice……and he is boys with CC….IF they can squeeze him and Andy in, that will be just about it I think until at least the middle of next year, and that team would be fully loaded, quite possibly better than the 2009 team.
Dare I say…1998?
Nah. Won’t risk invoking the name. Cue Mo/Melvin responses
im thinking this really opensd up the Sox to persue Cabrera – or even the Halos – since it seems the Tigers are looking to really shed payroll.
I can see Theo making a move, putting up with Cabrera at 1B until next year when both Papi and Lowell will be gone
At that point, either Andersen will be up from the minors and Youk at 3B, or if Cabrera puts down the donuts and doesnt make a fool of himself at 1B they could re-sign Papi as DH and keep Cabrera at 1B.
For the Halos he is a perfect DH and righty bat, and Moreno needs to make a splash on offense because of the departure of most of both Figgins and Vlad.
Either way, if Bay goes to Seattle as he supposedly wished for, this might be a very interesting scenario.
I see it as very possible that Bay goes to Seattle and Holliday ends up back with St. Louis.
I think it was Heyman who reported today that the Seattle interest has been overhyped, and don’t want to put up with his D, but LAA will be bidding in the end it seems
A) This trade makes the Tigers MORE likely to keep Cabrera, not less. This gives them the payroll flexibility to play AJax, Scherzer, Schlereth, and Coke at bargain-basement rates, get out from Granderson’s 5.5M and Edwin’s arb hearing (probably 10M total, maybe more).
I expect them now to let Rodney and Lyon walk and not replace them in the pen (that’s Coke and Schlereth) and eat some of the Willis/Bonderman/Robertson money to try and dump one or two of them early (they’re all entering their walk years) and roll with a Verlander-Porcello-Galarraga-Scherzer-Bonine super-cheap rotation, and thus contend with a slightly smaller payroll. At the end of the season, Bonderman/Willis/Robertson/Ordonez/Inge/Laird all walk, and that’s like a good 60M in salary relief.
B) Miggy’s only available at a BIG price. The Sox would have to bowl Detroit over to pry him away.
Nothing to be concerned about.
Well Done SIr.
Math + Cruelty
That’s a massive amount of dough coming off the books at the end of what will be a 80-win 2010 season. Tigers could very well be players for a couple of the major potentials: Webb, Lee, Dunn, Werth, Crawford, and Mauer.
Yup.
The Tigers are not a small market team anymore; they’ll reinvest. No need to move Cabrera now that Granderson/Jackson has been swapped for 4 MLB-ready youngsters who can all start.
Expiring contracts for the Tigers next winter:
Ordonez, Magglio: $18,000,000 (possible vesting option for 2011)
Bonderman, Jeremy: $12,500,000
Willis, Dontrelle: $12,000,000
Robertson, Nate: $10,000,000
Inge, Brandon: $6,600,000
Laird, Gerald: some arb figure higher than the $2,800,000 he made in 2009
i’m sure the Tigers will find a way to avoid the vesting of the Maggs option. they better … he could be difference of being able to afford a Cliff Lee.
the implications of having Maggs’s 2011 option vest are staggering.
NCIS Los Angeles: Worst show ever OR worst show ever?
IETC
Is LL Cool J in it? Yes?
Worst THING ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Does it have Torgo in it? No?
GDI!
Heh.
MST3K style, yo.
So assuming we sign Cam or JD, I have to think that either Melk or Grit is on the way out. We all know who I’d rather stay but I wonder what Cash & Co are thinking.. There is really no need for a 5th OFer on the 25 when you have C-Grand Swish and Cam/Melk/JD as the starters.
Ah shit I guess Grit has an option or two left. I guess he could just be sent down.
You keep him in Scranton just in case the inevitable injury hits. Since the upper system is barren for OF’s.
AJax was overrated anyways. All Yankee prospects are.
Write it down – Sterling’s HR call for Grandy: “Ain’t Curtis Grand?”
DING DING DING
From Lohud:
You are giving me those numbers which state that Cameron is a better hitter, sightly with more pop, and a better defensive player. I agree with you there, slightly better with more pop, however you are forgetting one thing.
This team just won the WS with Melky Cabrera, who is used to playing in the bronx and has had numerous CLUTCH hit for us….why give that up for a player that has a little more pop? Why risk it???
Melky is not the problem relaly much of an issue if he is playing LF. He was an issuein CF because his numbers werent there but LF we all can live with him there.
A Lanny-esque coment. Pure genius.
Someone hasnt been listening me to for the past 2+ yrs when Ive stayed pretty clear that Melky is a solid 4th OF.
But hey making things up, personal attacks and trying to defame someone is par for the course for some posters here. Keep up the good work, Rocky!
I was referring to the lack of logic part of the comment, not the actual content.
If we went out and got a DH there would be absolutely no problem with Melky in Left.
Because of all the CLUTCH hits he got!
TSJC, this one’s for you. Rather than expound this in the cozy nest 100 or so comments ago, I’ll put it right here.
My theory: The skill set relying on OBP+Power, with 125+K/year, at the expense of BA is likely to be exposed in the postseason, due to the smaller amount of PAs, and taking them against premium pitching.
My point: Since we already have two of these guys in our starting lineup in Abuelo & Swish, that’s 22% of the lineup that sports all the risks that this skill set raises. Ergo, we should not pursue Cammy, thus committing another 11% of the lineup to the same description.
My crudimentary research has yielded thusly:
Note: I am not a subscriber to baseball reference, so my search criteria was met with limited accessibility. Nor is this kind of thing my forte, but I was curious.
Ok, so I thought of McGwire & Schmidt off the top of my head, and ran a search in B-R for OPS leaders coupled with <.275 BA & further weeded through to over 125K/year. Also precluded anyone w/ <100 postseason ABs.
Mark McGwire:
162 game reg. season averages: .263/.394/.588/.982 138K
Postseason: 151 PA .217/.320/.349/.669 33K 21.9K%
Now it’s unfair to use cumulative postseason #’s due to the sporadic PAs & the SSS. To break it down, Big Mac had 7 postseasons in which he underperformed, and 3 in which he out-performed his career averages, for a net postseason underperformance.
Mike Schmidt:
162: .267/.380/.527/.908 127K
Post: 158 PA .236/.304/.386/.690 27K 17.1K%
For Schmiddty, he had 5 underperforming postseasons to 3 mean or outperforming ones. Net underperformance.
Jose Canseco:
162: .266/.353/.515/.867 167K
Post: 124 PA .184/.315/.398/.713 28K 22.9K%
Canseco had 5 underperformances to 3 mean or outperformances, although one of the unders he only got 1 AB, so it’s more like 4 to 3. Net underperformance.
Darryl Strawberry:
162: .259/.357/.505/.862 138K
Post: 145 PA .254/.345/.500/.845 38K 26.1K%
Straw had 4 underperformances to 6 mean or outperformances. Net wash.
Reggie Jackson:
162: .262/.356/.490/.846 149K
Post: 318 PA .278/.358/.527/.885 70K 22K%
Mr. October had 7 underperformances to 9 mean or outperformances. Net outperformance.
Jay Buhner
162: .254/.359/.494/.852 155K
Post: 98 PA *missed the cutoff, but he weighs in against my theory, & the 2 PA are negligible right* .306/.398/.624/1.021 28K 28.6K%
Buhner only had 2 subpar Postseasons, compared to 5 beastly ones. Big time net outperformance.
So we’ve got three guys who underperformed, and three guys who played to their mean level or beyond.
I’ve got to say I’m tired of doing this, so I’m going to stop after the three guys I’m talking about.
Mike Cameron
162: .250/.340/.448/.788 159K
Post: 112 PA .174/.309/.272/.581 29K 25.9K%
5 underperformances for Cammy to 1 outperformance. Net under.
Nick Swisher
162: .245/.357/.460/.818 142K
Post: 89 PA .155/.318/.254/.572 23K 25.8K%
Swish has underperformed 5 times to 1 outperformance. Net under.
Curtis ‘Abuelo’ Granderson
162: .272/.344/.484/.828 149K
Post: 59 PA .226/.288/.491/.779 10K 16.9K%
He’s only been in the Postseason in 06, and his WS #’s really dragged down excellent performances in the CS & DS. SSS abound, net wash.
In this limited sampling, I’ve got to say I’m thinking my theory doesn’t hold much water for guys that are excellent offensive threats, as all are on this list. All, that is, except for Cammy.
Cammy is the least offensive of any of these guys. IMO he would add more risk than he is worth, now that we have Abuelo.
Many apologies for reposting this monstrosity.
I’m of the theroy that it’s mostly coincidence. People slump at the wrong time, it happens. (See: A-Rod)
Right, but Arod’s skill set is more dynamic, increasing the ways in which he can rebound.
My real point is that it would take Swish AND Abuelo to have a goot postseason to offset what would likely be a dismal one from Cammy.
You could rotate that scenario any which way. Two of those guys have to really outperform to make up for the sinkhole of the other one.
The reason is that they’re not elite offensive talents, so their skill set is weakened by premium pitching. I’m going to actually find a way to tally this up one of these days, my 1st attempt is admittedly poor.
But won’t the majority players see a decrease in their postseason numbers given the quality of pitching? I’m not sure that’s limited to high OBP/SLG/K guys.
I would like the entire RAB community to grant me this one wish for Christmas.
Please, pretty please, stop posting your arguments for why you don’t want Mike Cameron. Do they need him like Gammons needs nudie pics of Pedroia’s older brother? No. But he fits VERY WELL into their outfield picture, with or without Granderson, Damon, Melky or Matsui.
So please, I beg you all. Post all you want. Debate. Argue. Facebook stalk 19 year old prospects. Site flawed UZR statistics. Imagine a world without ESPN. Just please, stop making up reasons why Mike Cameron on a one year deal is not a solid pick-up for the Yankees.
Good night.
Nothing to add.