Mar
29

The positives of having Joba in the bullpen

By

Once the Yankees officially announced that Phil Hughes had won what never appeared to be much of a competition for the fifth starter’s job, there was a tremendous amount of backlash regarding Joba Chamberlain‘s role. More than I expected, really. While Joe Girardi has indicated that an assignment to Triple-A remains an option (not just for Joba, but for Al Aceves too), it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that Chamberlain will spend the entire season working out of the team’s bullpen in some capacity.

The Yanks already have two long men in the pen, so in all likelihood Joba will setup Mariano Rivera in short relief somehow. A multi-inning relief role isn’t out of the question, but I find it unlikely. Girardi also maintains that they won’t just hand him his old 8th inning job, but we’ll see. Joba somehow worked his way back into the 8th inning role during the playoffs last year even though he wasn’t pitching all that well. But I digress.

The reason everyone’s upset about Joba spending the year in the bullpen has to do with his development plan. After spending the last two-plus years fighting the completely arbitrary Joba Rules and finally having a developed starter, the Yanks are shelving Joba The Starter. Looking around the league, I see no fewer than 24 teams that would unquestionably be using Chamberlain as a big league starter if he were in their organization, and there’s probably a few more than would be as well.

No matter how much we don’t like the move of using Joba as a reliever in 2010, it’s going to happen. I’m here to provide a little dose of reality, because having him available out of the bullpen this year is far from a negative. Is it ideal? No. But does it have value? Absolutely.

1. He’s still in the big leagues

If you watched any or all of Chamberlain’s 31 starts last season, you saw a common theme. He was too tentative and almost refused to attack the strike zone. That’s something a trip to the minors won’t solve, because you can flirt with the corners in Triple-A and still get outs because the hitters are inferior. The number of innings Joba’s capable of throwing in 2011 is secondary to his learning how to get hitters out, and that’s something he has to do against the best competition he’ll ever face. I discussed this very topic further at TYU.

2. He gets to work with Mariano Rivera

I know Mike Harkey holds the title of Bullpen Coach – he’s the guy that picks up the phone when Dave Eiland calls and the one who waves his hat whenever someone is ready – but Mo is the guy in charge out there. In addition to everything he’s done on the mound, he’s also done some great things just by spending time with his fellow relievers. Mo took Edwar Ramirez and Jose Veras under his wing during the 2008 season, when the pair combined to post a 3.74 ERA (3.99 FIP) and a 10.04 K/9 in 113 innings, and he did the same with Phil Hughes last year. Spending more than six months enrolled at The University of Rivera can be nothing but good for Chamberlain.

3. The Yankees have some serious bullpen depth

Even before the fifth starter’s race was decided, Girardi had the trio of David Robertson, Damaso Marte, and Chan Ho Park available to bridge the gap from the starters to Rivera in the 9th,and we all felt comfortable with that. The Yankees had so much bullpen depth that Mark Melancon, he of the 10-1 K/BB ratio in six outings this spring, was reassigned to minor league camp with 16 days left in Spring Training. Now add Joba to that mix, and you’ve got four bonafide setup men available on any given night. Not that he’s even done so before, but Girardi won’t have to rely and overwork one specific guy, and if the 40-year-old Rivera ever needs a few days off, he has plenty of options to work the 9th in Mo’s stead.

4. His arm gets a break

The 2009 season was first time Joba has ever pitched a full, healthy season as a pro. His 2007 season was cut short on the front end by a hamstring injury that prevented him from pitching until May and at the back end by his shift to the bullpen. Shoulder tendinitis robbed Joba of nearly a month during the 2008 season, and as a result he increased his workload by 47.2 innings last year. An increase that large is generally considered to be hazardous to the health of pitcher’s Chamberlain’s age, so the move to the bullpen gives him a little of a breather.

Again, having Joba move back to the bullpen this year is less than ideal, especially when he’s now free from pretty much any kind of innings limitation (I doubt they would have let him throw 220 innings, or something crazy like that). Does the move make the Yankees a better team in 2010? Yeah, it almost definitely does, and when the core of your team features four key players that will be at least 36-years-old by the time the playoffs roll around, it’s not the worst idea to try to win as much as possible right now.

Photo Credit: Flickr user crabshack

Categories : Death by Bullpen
  • http://www.wiredtowns.com Short Porch

    And… we don’t have to listen to the B-Jobbers any more

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      No, we still will.

      • Rick in Boston

        With every eighth inning fistpump, a B-jobber gets their wings.

      • andrew

        We will probably from there even more. Every successful bullpen outing will be more ammunition that they were “right” all along.

      • Tom Zig

        Yeah they are being a bunch of d***s about it. If Joba won the 5th starter battle, RAB would be like ok good move Cashmoney. And that would be that. There would be none of these clowns mature individuals

        • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          Oh come on… You know I’m on your side on this one, but please don’t try to sell the idea that the B-Jobbers are all immature dicks and the non-B-Jobbers are all mature and never say anything stupid or antagonize the B-Jobbers or stuff like that.

          In fact, even your comment falls into the latter category, IMO. If they act like dicks, explain why you disagree with them or just ignore them… But responding to someone who gloats by calling them a dick isn’t exactly the mature, reserved response.

          • Templeton “Brendog” Peck

            yeah but still. that guy who’s post he linked comes off a giant douche nozzle numero uno

            • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              Yeah, sure. But if he does it once and gets it out of his system, I say whatever, let it go. I’m sure he’s taken a TON of shit around here for his opinions, a good portion of which I’d safely bet went way over the line of snarkiness and taunting. It’s a little ridiculous for people to bitch and moan about B-Jobbers taunting a bit during the week that they got their way (at least got their way for the short-term future). Those people take a ton of abuse around here, of course they’re going to throw it in everyone’s face a bit.

              • Templeton “Brendog” Peck

                right. whatever. happens. just sayin the ude wrote it in all caps like 15 times. that’s excessive.

              • mustang

                GOD DAMN !!!

                I just became a big fucking fan preach on brother !!!!!

                THANK YOU

                • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                  Haha, I’m honored.

            • Rogue Trader

              Yes, yes i did.

              Come on, if Joba was starting all of you S-Jobbers would be pumping your chests and saying how you knew you were right all along.
              We would be hearing “now all the B-Jobbers can shut up BLAH BLAH”

              Listen, i still believe that Joba didn’t get enough time to prove himself as a starter, but so what? We are the Yankees and we have depth, if your chance to prove yourself was last season and you didn’t impress then tough luck. His stuff is better out of the bullpen than when he starts anyways so it’s still a positive for the Yankees in general. If Joba does what he did in 2007 than he will be MORE VALUABLE than a backend starter who we can easily replaceable in the market.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                What the #$%& is an “S-Jobber”?

                • Rogue Trader

                  Why the ^%$% are you asking a stupid question like that for.

                • mustang

                  He is right have to come up with something better then “S-Jobber”.

                  Maybe the” Analytical, complex, rational, but he still end up in the pen Jobbers”

                  ACI- Jobbers for short.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  Why the ^%$% are you asking a stupid question like that for.

                  Because there’s no such thing as an “S-Jobber”. That’s not a term that exists outside of this Yankee pitching realm. It’s not clever or witty. Your cheap ripoff of my phrase falls far short of acceptability.

                • Rogue Trader

                  You’re right, how about

                  Those who believe they are Analytically Correct but proven wrong by the Yankees General Manager and Pitching Coaches- Jobbers.

                  TWBTAACBPWBTYGMAPC- Jobbers

                • mustang

                  Cat fight !!!!

                • Rogue Trader

                  Because there’s no such thing as an “S-Jobber”. That’s not a term that exists outside of this Yankee pitching realm. It’s not clever or witty. Your cheap ripoff of my phrase falls far short of acceptability.
                  ___

                  It was a term i read on RAB not too long ago, i did not make it up and as far as creativity goes go ahead and pat yourself on the back. And just like S-Jobbers, B-Jobbers doesn’t exist outside of this “Yankee pitching realm”.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  Those who believe they are Analytically Correct but proven wrong by the Yankees General Manager and Pitching Coaches- Jobbers.

                  I haven’t been proven wrong. Nothing is yet “proven” one way or the other.

                  I am analytically correct, though.

                  What’s happened is, the FO (or at least a portion of it) has chosen the short term over the long term. That’s regrettable, IMO, but it doesn’t change the philosophical underpinnings at the heart of the anti-B-Jobber movement.

                  Those philosophical underpinnings are that teams should show patience and perspective with their pitchers and realize that young players aren’t finished products, but they shouldn’t be prematurely consigned to roles of diminished utility simply because they can fill those smaller, easier roles well. Doing so compromises the team’s long-term strategy and forces the team to fill harder holes externally, rather than smaller holes. That point still stands.

                  And that’s at the heart of my/our beef with B-Jobbers: they refuse to look at the issue dispassionately or analytically. They make decisions on emotion, not on thought.

                  That’s why not every single person here who advocated for Joba to go to the bullpen is a B-Jobber. Steve S a/k/a Nostra-Artist has advocated on numerous occasions for Joba to be put in the bullpen in 2010, but he’s not a B-Jobber, because he makes his advocations grounded in rational thought. Most of the other people who want Joba in the bullpen do not.

                  ——————

                  Furthermore, I never EVER EVER EVER said the Yankees will do what I advocate, just that they SHOULD do what I advocate.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                If Joba does what he did in 2007 than he will be MORE VALUABLE than a backend starter who we can easily replaceable in the market.

                The historical analysis says “No, he won’t.”

                • Rogue Trader

                  I’m sure you’re very well-liked around here but your shit is really annoying, your overworked references and “funny” remarks are a bit dull and extremely corny.

                  The historical analysis says “Yes, he will”

                • Rick in Boston

                  What historical analysis supports that a relief pitcher is more valuable than a back-end starter? Even Mo in his best years is less valuable than the innings provided by a league average pitcher, much less an above average pitcher in the 4/5 spot.

                • mustang

                  Now, now play nice tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size is a nice guy once you get to know him.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  2009:
                  Number of MLB pitchers who produced at least 3 wins above replacement: 49

                  Number of those 49 pitchers who were relief pitchers: 0

                  Relief pitcher who posted the highest WAR in 2009: Jonathan Broxton, LAD (+2.9)

                  Some of the starting pitchers who produced a higher WAR than Broxton, the best reliever in baseball last year (not complete):
                  Jon Danks
                  Dallas Braden
                  Nick Blackburn
                  Randy Wells
                  Randy Wolf
                  Jeff Neimann
                  Paul Maholm
                  Scott Feldman
                  Scott Baker
                  Edwin Jackson
                  Ted Lilly
                  Jason Hammel

                • Rogue Trader

                  What historical analysis supports that a relief pitcher is more valuable than a back-end starter? Even Mo in his best years is less valuable than the innings provided by a league average pitcher, much less an above average pitcher in the 4/5 spot.
                  ____

                  An above average 4 or 5 guy is an average league pitcher…

                  Are you using WAR to determine value?

                  Mo in his best years would get you ANY above average starter in the league in a trade, come on now.

                • Rick in Boston

                  And that’s because baseball teams overvalue relievers. A league average starter is worth more than any reliever. Let me repeat that: any reliever.

                • Rogue Trader

                  2009:
                  Number of MLB pitchers who produced at least 3 wins above replacement: 49
                  Number of those 49 pitchers who were relief pitchers: 0
                  Relief pitcher who posted the highest WAR in 2009: Jonathan Broxton, LAD (+2.9)
                  Some of the starting pitchers who produced a higher WAR than Broxton, the best reliever in baseball last year (not complete):
                  Jon Danks
                  Dallas Braden
                  Nick Blackburn
                  Randy Wells
                  Randy Wolf
                  Jeff Neimann
                  Paul Maholm
                  Scott Feldman
                  Scott Baker
                  Edwin Jackson
                  Ted Lilly
                  Jason Hammel
                  ___

                  This just proves that WAR, although a nice stat is not completely reliable and is not an unfailing stat. Is Mariano REALLY worth only 2 wins above replacement?

                  Why not turn every reliever into a starter then and watch their WAR increase?

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  Is Mariano REALLY worth only 2 wins above replacement?

                  Yes. Because he simply can’t affect the game any more than that. In a 162 game season, with 9 innings per game, Mo is only pitching in about 4% of the team’s total innings for the year. He’s light’s out dominant, but there’s 96% of the season where he’s sitting on the bench.

                  Why not turn every reliever into a starter then and watch their WAR increase?

                  Because about 90% of relievers couldn’t handle starting, they’re not good enough.

                • pete

                  “Because about 90% of relievers couldn’t handle starting, they’re not good enough.”

                  Right. And 9% don’t have a strong enough track record of staying healthy as starters. And 1% are only in the pen because their teams were seduced by the idea of the dominant closer or reliever (Joba, Soria).

              • pete

                Well, we HAD depth. Now we have Sergio Mitre.

              • pete

                and if Joba does what he did in 2007, which is put up an 0.38 ERA, then yeah, he’ll be pretty damn valuable. But I don’t really expect Joba to be 5-6 times better as a reliever than Mariano, do you?

                I think it’s much more likely that a few fluke HRs eschew his stats (as they always do with relievers) and turn him into a 1.8-2.2 ERA reliever, which is more easily replaced (financially speaking) than a back-end starter.

                The problem here is that you’re thinking of the traditional back-end starter, which would be some combination of guys with ERAs over 5 for the last two spots of the rotation. That’s not what we’re talking about. In the AL East in 2010, no team that gives a significant number of innings to a guy worse than a traditional #3 (i.e. major league average in terms of ERA) is going to succeed.

                The Yankees moves over the past week suggest that they believe that Sergio Mitre is a better starter than Joba Chamberlain. There is absolutely no evidence ANYWHERE that suggests that this is true. Maybe the yankees have some information that we don’t, but it’d need to be something big to make that true.

                So many of us assume/worry that that is not the Yankees line of thinking, but rather that “Joba will perform better in the pen than in the rotation”. This is a surprisingly common rationale that B-Jobbers have been using for some time, and many of us are worried that the Yanks FO/scouting dept./coaching staff has been misled by this line of thinking that has proliferated the MSM for two years now into believing that because this is true (and of course it is – all starters would achieve better results out of the bullpen because it’s an easier job), it means that Joba belongs in the bullpen.

                This is where the logic stops. The idea is not to make Joba’s #s look the most impressive, or to make his life the easiest. The idea is for the team to maximize his value. Joba has dominated in the past as a starter, and was solid for most of last year until he started to get yanked around. If you exclude his truncated starts from last year, he has a career ERA of 3.62 as a starter in the AL East at ages 23 and 24. If Joba replicates that over a full season of starting (and considering that sample size is 184.1 innings, it’s not that unreasonable to think he could either this year or next), then he’d be worth approx. $16 million. He’d be making less than a 10th of that. As a reliever, however, if he is in that 2.00 ERA range, he’ll be worth anywhere from $2 to 6 million. Still a bargain, but not even close to what he’d be worth as a starter.

                It’s hard as fans to sacrifice performance for cost efficiency, since we’re not paying the bills, and we still hate it when guys don’t meet our performance expectations, however ridiculous they may be. But the fact remains that for Joba the starter to be no more fiscally valuable than a reliever of Joba’s caliber, he would need to be every bit as bad as he was in 2009. Do you really think that, if he went through a season without being messed with, he’d be worse than that?

                • pete

                  also, RT, using Mariano is a hugely flawed method. Relievers simply don’t maintain that level of dominance the way he has. Great closers might stay at that level for 5 or 6 years, but not 15. The only reason Mo has been compensated as generously as he was in his last contract is because for whatever reason, he just never seems to falter. To consider this anything but an extreme exception to the rule would be a mistake.

                  And furthermore, do you really need more evidence than Mariano to prove that a great reliever is worth less than an average starter? Mo came up in 1996, at age 25, and still hadn’t mastered an effective breaking ball or offspeed pitch. He was a kid with a live fastball and good command, but nothing more. As a starter, it showed. His ERA was over 5, and he could never seem to get through more than 4 or 5 innings. And it wasn’t just inconsistency either, which is to be expected from young starters. Mariano did not have any flashes of dominance as a starter. Yet when he moved to the bullpen, he became a great reliever. How? Because it is a much, MUCH easier job. Granted, Mo’s performance, in terms of consistency, is entirely unique in baseball history, but nevertheless it goes to show that it does not take a great or even good or even average starter to make a great reliever.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  So many of us assume/worry that that is not the Yankees line of thinking, but rather that “Joba will perform better in the pen than in the rotation”. This is a surprisingly common rationale that B-Jobbers have been using for some time, and many of us are worried that the Yanks FO/scouting dept./coaching staff has been misled by this line of thinking that has proliferated the MSM for two years now into believing that because this is true (and of course it is – all starters would achieve better results out of the bullpen because it’s an easier job), it means that Joba belongs in the bullpen.

                  This is where the logic stops. The idea is not to make Joba’s #s look the most impressive, or to make his life the easiest. The idea is for the team to maximize his value. Joba has dominated in the past as a starter, and was solid for most of last year until he started to get yanked around. If you exclude his truncated starts from last year, he has a career ERA of 3.62 as a starter in the AL East at ages 23 and 24. If Joba replicates that over a full season of starting (and considering that sample size is 184.1 innings, it’s not that unreasonable to think he could either this year or next), then he’d be worth approx. $16 million. He’d be making less than a 10th of that. As a reliever, however, if he is in that 2.00 ERA range, he’ll be worth anywhere from $2 to 6 million. Still a bargain, but not even close to what he’d be worth as a starter.

                  Repeated for emphasis. Well said.

                • http://cid-e3a022289d65b5c0.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Assorted/foul.jpg Andy (different one) in chilly NYC

                  Don’t you mean “re-Pete-ed”? ;-)

                  Pete’s posts are long, but almost always reward the patient reader with well-reasoned arguments.

                • pete
          • Tom Zig

            I didn’t mean to imply that they all are acting like that, nor did I mean to imply that we are all above such behavior. I’ll revise my comment then:

            Yeah, some of them they are being a bunch of d***s about it. I would like to think that most of us would respond in a different manner had the opposite result of the 5th starter competition occurred.

            I didn’t think it was necessary to explain why I disagreed with his comment. I don’t mean to start trouble here. I just felt that it was unnecessary to post a comment like that. I didn’t intend on gloating or anything of the sort.

        • mustang

          Are you serious? Then your not here very often.

          It would have been just as bad if not worse all the Joba starter guys glowing over victory. Throwing Bill Sherman and company on under the bus with absolute joy and happiness.

    • mustang

      “And… we don’t have to listen to the B-Jobbers any more”

      And the Joba starters see that how that works both ways. LOL

      Peace in the RAB kingdom.

      (yeah, right)

    • http://Nytimes.com Gardimentary

      What is a B-Jobber?

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        Someone who advocates that Joba should go to the Bullpen, based on any number of several intellectually flawed or analytically incorrect/illogical reasons, such as “his temperament/mentality” or “shortening games” or “the importance of the 8th inning”, etc.

        They want Joba in the bullpen because they think he helps the team there more than as a starter, even though the mountains of baseball wisdom almost invariably say that concept is false.

      • pete

        it’s “jobber” because that’s how Mike Francesa says “Joba”

  • Andy in Sunny Daytona

    Ahhh, the picture is downright adorable. But I’m sure Phil could have thrown it better.

    /Still bitter’d

  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

    He’ll also stop bothering the other starters with his constant grunting and farting.

    • http://enternight.mlblogs.com Ana

      ietcvm

  • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

    I have questions about point 2 and point 4.

    Re point 2 – If being under Mo’s wing is such a boon for relievers, what happened to Edwar and Veras in 2009? Aren’t you just taking two relievers who have seen expected volatility in their results and giving credit for the good results to “being under Mo’s wing” while dismissing the fact that those same relievers also had awful stretches while “under Mo’s wing?”

    Re point 4 – I don’t know enough about this subject to object, really, but just something to consider… Being in the bullpen isn’t necessarily better for Joba’s health than being in the rotation is. Do we know that pitching in the bullpen, in a higher number of appearances that aren’t evenly spaced, is better for a pitcher’s health than, or a “breather” when compared to, pitching in the rotation on a set schedule every 5 days?

    • Andy in Sunny Daytona

      Mo University is only for 1 year, then you’re on your own.

    • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      I’ll add to my objection to point 2 above… I’m sure being around Mo isn’t a bad thing… But I kind of have serious doubts whether being around Mo was a big reason why Hughes was lights out in a relief role in 2009. I think that was probably due more to, like, Phil Hughes being Phil Hughes.

      • bexarama

        This. Plus, Mo wants Joba in the pen for good, remember? I love Mariano but the guy’s not a pitching coach.

    • Chris

      With Girardi as the manager, I’d guess that the pen is a healthier place to be. If Torre were still the manager, Joba should be kept as far away from the pen as possible.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      Also, on Point 4: aren’t there biomechanics/anatomy studies that say the best thing for a pitcher’s arm is to be on a regular pitch-rest-recovery schedule? I.e., the rotation?

      Joba may throw fewer innings in the bullpen, but they’ll be on a more unpredictable/irregular schedule, they’ll involve quick, unpredictable warmups, and probably 80-90% of his innings will be high stress/high leverage innings. I don’t know if 60-70 innings in the pen is really any easier on his arm than 200 innings in the rotation.

      • Rick in Boston

        This. Given his history with shoulder/arm problems going back to college, isn’t giving him regular rest the better solution. Is there going to be a new version of the Joba Rules:

        -If Joba is warmed up Girardi must either use him or sit him down for the rest of the game unless they hit extra innings.
        -Joba can’t be used for more than X number of high-leverage innings.

        Does Cashman perhaps trust Girardi not to burn him out since he’s got more reliable relievers than Torre had?

      • ledavidisrael

        About point 4 their are also theories that say minor league numbers innings don’t = major league innings because of stress level.

        So the last two years joba has been REALLY over worked, at least according to ppl who hold this belief.

        So this “break” could do wonders for his arm.

      • ledavidisrael

        Also if we go with what your saying and these 60-70 innings are even double as stressful as starting wouldn’t that leave him in the same shape as if he was starting?

        So he will be ready for a full time work load as a SP in 2011.

        • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          No, I don’t think that’s how it really works, or at least that’s not how most people believe it works. Just because relief innings might be more stressful on the arm doesn’t mean each relief inning is worth an inning starting. I think there’s believed to be a difference between the physical tools needed to be a starter for a full season – endurance, etc. – and the stress put on an arm in relief work, which is more localized. I think the point is that there might be (probably is?) more stress put on an arm in a relief inning than in a starting inning because of the quick warm-up, frequency of appearances and max-effort expended, but that doing those things doesn’t prepare an arm to be a starter for 200 innings per season. I think you’re kind of twisting different ideas to build an argument that relief work in 2010 will ready Joba to be a full-time starter in 2011, but I don’t think that’s how it works.

          • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            “Just because relief innings might be more stressful on the arm doesn’t mean each relief inning is worth an inning two innings starting.”

            (fixed)

  • zzzzzz

    his arm getting a “rest” and working at getting out major league hitters was two of the advantages i thought of when i heard joba was going to the bullpen.

    best case scenario: hughes flourishes in the 5th starter spot in 2010 and cites his bullpen work last year as a big reason why. 2011 has joba following hughes success.

    • Templeton “Brendog” Peck

      i pray this is the case.

  • Beamish

    And he will have room to grunt and snort and fart…because that is what great relievers do… :facepalm

    Yeah, it almost definitely does, and when the core of your team features four key players that will be at least 36-years-old by the time the playoffs roll around, it’s not the worst idea to try to win as much as possible right now.

    I understand the logic given the core position player’s ages but it also means that they are not too concerned with 3 or 4 years from now. That is the kind of thinking that was part and parcel of pitcher trades/signings like Brown, Johnson, Pavano and Wright.

    • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      I think you’re taking that reasoning way too far. Putting Joba in the ‘pen in 2010 does not mean they are not concerned with 3 or 4 years from now. And the transactions you compared this too really aren’t applicable, other than maybe the Johnson transaction. The Yankees gave up Brandon Wheeden, Jeff Weaver and Yhency Brazoban for Brown – there’s a whole lot of yawn in that package. Pavano was coveted by a ton of teams (see: Carlapalooza), and the Wright signing was a bad idea but, like you can say for any of these other signings… Who were these guys blocking? Who represented the future that the Yankees at that time were forsaking for immediate results? The problem during those years was a lack of internal options, not that the Yankees jettisoned those internal long-term options for a short-term gain.

      The Yankees have Phil Hughes in the rotation and they chose to put their other ready-for-MLB arm in the ‘pen since there’s no room for him in the rotation and they would rather use him in the ‘pen than send him to AAA. That’s a far cry from selling the future for the present, it’s not like the Yanks are trading all these young arms for older players on bigger contracts. The comparison you make doesn’t really work, and even if you want to compare it to a time when the Yanks really did sell off young assets too often, like the 80s, what they’re doing now with the Joba/Phil situation PALES in comparison.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        W-E-E-D-E-N

        (3… 2… 1… )

        • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          C-L-O-W-N

          (never gets old)

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

            I sets ‘em up, you knocks ‘em down.

      • Thomas

        I just like to add, the Wright signing was part of a major play for Leo Mazzone that year. One of the Tampa Crew promised he would bring in Mazzone to help with all pitchers and to keep Jaret Wright pitching at the level he pitched the year before in Atlanta.

        Of course, the Mazzone signing never happened.

      • Beamish

        Do you really think Joba will ever be a starter for the Yankees now?

        If not then those rotation innings have to come from someone. In 4 years there will be no Andy, no Javy, likely no Burnett and maybe no Carsten Charles…I love Hughes but he cannot be 5 starters. I don’t see 4 young starter arms on the farm, at best there are two which means a 50% chance of one actually making it – there rest have to come from outside.

        I just have to accept that they know something the rest of us don’t and Joba never was going to be a good starter. Otherwise I am left with the conclusion they are mortgaging part of the future for the present.

        And, No, this is not the 80’s. I suffered through the 80’s too and I will take a grunting, snorting, farting Joba over that style of management any day.

        • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          Do I think Joba will ever be a starter for the Yankees? I guess I don’t think it’s as likely as I thought it was a week ago, but I don’t think he definitely won’t be.

          But here’s a question for you that I think is more to the point… In 4 years, when you’re worried about not having enough arms… Where are all the other arms in the Yanks’ system going to be? Who else will they acquire between now and then, either in free agency or in the draft or in the international amateur market? You want to assume that the Yankees will have Hughes and 4 holes in the rotation, but that’s a completely ridiculous assumption. And, at least when you hear Cashman talk about it, it sounds like, in the future, if they have a rotation hole going into a season and Joba is up to the task, they’ll plug him back into that hole.

          “I just have to accept that they know something the rest of us don’t and Joba never was going to be a good starter. Otherwise I am left with the conclusion they are mortgaging part of the future for the present.”

          This, I have no problem with. But this isn’t what you said in your initial comment, above. I think they probably are mortgaging at least a part of the future for present gains – I would have preferred to see Joba sent down to AAA to work as a starter. But what they’re doing here is NOTHING like what you implied above, it’s not like their organizational philosophy is to worry about the present at all costs and without concern for what decisions today will mean 4 years down the line. You just took it way too far.

          • Beamish

            I think we agree – my pitcher examples were admittedly lazy.

            My primary point was the decision to spend possible future pitching capital now because of the age of position players. I am just not comfortable with that as a primary team management tool – but to be honest if that is all the Yankees were about they probably would have thrown huge dollars at Holliday, paid Damon his overage and sent the Jesus, Joba and four other arms north for Halladay.

            • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              Right, totally. I agree, we’re pushing the same line of thinking here… It just need to be tempered a bit, nobody is throwing away the future here.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

    Spending more than six months enrolled at The University of Rivera can be nothing but good for Chamberlain.

    If Joba learns a good cutter from his studies at Mariano University and rejoins the rotation next year as a FIVE-pitch starter, that will please me greatly. Almost greatly enough to make up for his year of diminished development.

    (I don’t know why Mo couldn’t teach him a cutter if he was the 5th starter, though, so this point may be moot.)

    • Tom Zig

      Mo did teach Halladay the cutter. Or so they say.

    • Chris

      But Hughes won the 5th starter job. So the question should be:

      I don’t know why Mo couldn’t teach him a cutter if he was the 5th starter in Scranton, though, so this point may be moot.

      I know Mo is great, but I’m not sure that he could effectively teach Joba a new pitch when they’re 100 miles apart.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        No, what I was saying is, if Joba had won the “competition” and been the 5th starter for the big league club, Mo still could work with him on a cutter during the season. It’s not like starters and relievers are never allowed to speak to each other.

    • Bo

      When will you accept Joba the reliever?

      I got a feeling you would have been crying for a decade starting in 96 when they put Mo in the pen. How’d that turn out?

      • Rick in Boston

        Two totally different situations, which you still can’t seem to figure out.

  • The Three Amigos

    I think the only point that is great for Joba is hopefully getting the attack mentality back and stop nibbling. Hughes really found himself in the pen and regained the lost velocity. He will obviously pitch to less mph as a starter, but before the pen we were all wondering where his 2-3 mph went pre-injury 2008.

    Hopefully the same is true for Joba and he regains his lost mph back to a bonafide flamethrower, which he can then use to better transition to the rotation next year.

    • whozat

      So, hughes “found himself” and regained lost velocity..which you admit he will re-lose when he transitions back to the rotation.

      So, how did it help?

  • Jammy Jammers

    So there’s still a small chance that Joba could start in 2011?

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      It seems to be shaping up as a Cashman (starter) v. Eiland/Eppler (B-Jobber) internecine war of the braintrust. Eiland and Eppler want the move to be permanent, Cashmeezy won’t shut the door.

      • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        Just to clarify… I agree that Cashman isn’t closing the door, but he’s not definitely on the other side of the argument either. The other guys seem to want to end the discussion forever and Cashman wants to at least keep the door open to a return to the rotation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s advocating for a return to the rotation.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          True, but he does seem to take great pains to say the word “starter” in almost all of his mentions of Joba.

          • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            True, true.

          • rbizzler

            Doesn’t Joba as a starter hold more value as a possible trade chip? Cash may be trying to improve/maintain the value of an asset while Eppler/Eiland may be expressing their opinions.

            Also, do you think it is possible that people are tired of answering questions about Joba so taking a hard line on his move to the bullpen is a way of shutting down the questions for a bit.

      • Beamish

        Then I will put my faith in Cashmoney and pray.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          You and me both.

        • Chris

          The Yankees have won 4 WS, made it to 2 more, and have made the playoffs 11 of Cashman’s 12 seasons as GM.

          Based on those results, I will continue to put my faith in him until I am given an indisputable reason to doubt him.

    • Bo

      No.

      Cashman has to be PC. Eiland/Epp are telling it like it is.

  • A.D.

    The move has it’s merits, as long as it’s not the last decision about the rest of his Yankee career. I’m fine with Joba’s career being a reliever, if/when he’s been bad/less valuable as a starter.

    After all Joba threw up a 1.5 WAR last year, despite having his struggles, Ryan Madson of the Phillies, who can probably be considered one of the better set-up guys out there had a 1.4 dominating the 8th/9th.

  • http://yanksdraftsandprospects.blogspot.com/ Jake H

    Hopefully he will regain some confidence in his stuff.

  • JobaWockeeZ

    2. He gets to work with Mariano Rivera

    That’s great but there is also the University of Sabathia, Pettitte, Burnett and Vazquez that Joba can learn from. Mo is great and all but his cutter is truly a gift from the pitching gods.

    • bexarama

      I feel the need to make an obligatory “I would attend the University of Pettitte a whoooole lot” joke.

      And I agree with the thing about Mo and the cutter. There’s a reason that’s a special, once-in-a-generation-if-not-baseball-history pitch (it’s all the spit ;) ).

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        Bexy, if you attended the University of Pettitte, you’d major in Human Anatomy, wouldn’t you?

        • bexarama

          pretty sure this goes without saying

          • bexarama

            ugh I feel dirty for saying that

    • A.D.

      But the narrative!

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      Also a good point. Joba may be even better served learning a better changeup from CC and a better curve from AJ instead of learning a cutter from Mo.

      Hell, Javy Vazquez may be the best quasi-pitching coach on the team, for all we know. He thrown 5 quality pitches already.

      • Beamish

        Joba may be even better served learning a better changeup from CC and a better curve from AJ instead of learning a cutter from Mo.

        Well said.

      • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        This is kind of a tangential point since I totally agree that Joba could learn just as much if not more from being around the other starters than he can from being around Mo… But I actually don’t know if I want him learning much of anything from AJ, in particular. I’m an AJ fan, but that guy just doesn’t strike me as the sharpest guy in the rotation. I also think there’s this tendency, when AJ talks, for him to assume that just because he learned from Doc that he doesn’t need to go all-out all the time, that he needs to teach that lesson to every young pitcher he encounters, but what he learned doesn’t necessarily apply to everyone. It’s like this one piece of advice helped him so he thinks it’s the answer to all of life’s questions. AJ happened to have a ridiculous injury history, so the lesson applied to him. Joba got hurt once, I’m not sure I want AJ in his ear telling him to go easy on the mound all the time (and I’m not sure I want him tutoring Joba on much of anything else, either).

        • Mike HC

          AJ gets by with a fastball and sick breaking pitch. He does not get by with accuracy, or any teachable skill, other than throw the fastball hard on the corners, and keep the breaking pitch low. I could teach Joba that.

        • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          “This is kind of a totally tangential point…”

          (fixed)

    • Chris

      The problem with this is that the Yankees decided that Hughes won the 5th starter job. The question now is whether Joba should be a starter in AAA or a reliever in the majors. (If you disagree with Hughes being the 5th starter, you have the same question as above, just change all of the “Joba” to “Hughes”.)

  • http://dontbringinthelefty.blogspot.com don’t_bring_in_the_lefty

    Don’t forget #5. More fist-pumps

    • mustang

      And that’s the true value of him being a reliever.

    • Thomas
    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      I hope now that Hughes is in the rotation again, he steps it up a notch and develops a spinning leg whip-kick, King of Pop-style, to punctuate big outs.

      SHAM-ON!

  • mustang

    Slowly embracing reality, but in therapy that how it works small steps.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      Define: condescension.

      • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        Pot, kettle. Nobody can be surprised about a bunch of people who are constantly taunted coming around to gloat a little bit when they’ve gotten their way.

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          You take your perspective the hell on out of here! No one wants it! No one, I say!

          • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            Haha, I laughed.

        • mustang

          Yes I’m taunting a little bit, but all in fun. I didn’t get my way because I didn’t have a side on this one.

    • mustang

      Was just joking dude.

    • Bo

      Most wont accept reality here. No matter how much better the kid is in that role.

      • pete

        Has anyone in the history of baseball actually been worse out of the pen than the rotation? I guess Schilling’s tiny sample as closer in 05 or 06 or whenever it was that he came back and gloriously gave up a GW HR to A-Rod, but other than him (again, tiny SS), I can’t think of anyone.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          Has anyone in the history of baseball actually been worse out of the pen than the rotation?

          Good question. I can’t think of anyone.

          And it’s a good question because if the B-Jobbers are correct that Joba (or any pitcher) should go to the bullpen because “it’s where he pitches better”, than starters should be in the rotation because “it’s where they pitch better”.

          The results-to-temperament argument must go both ways (there must be pitchers who pitch better in the rotation than in the bullpen, due to their talent/temperament being “better suited” to that role) for the argument to not be a tautology.

  • Mike HC

    Like seeing a RAB article looking at the positives.

    My only nit pick is with the final one, giving his arm a break. I think pitching in the pen puts just as much, if not more, pressure on the arm. If anything, going from reliever one year, to starter the next, then back to reliever, probably puts more stress on the arm than if he just stuck with one role.

    • Mike HC

      Ah, I see my “point” has already been kinda hashed out above.

  • Templeton “Brendog” Peck

    maybe the braintrust saw hughes struggles as a starter, put him in the pen to “learn how to ger ml htiters out” and see the progress this year and figure putting jobber out there this yr wll result in that revelation and therefore cause his 2011 to be like the masterful 2010 hughes is about to have….

    ::true if i tell my self enough times::

    • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      It’s an interesting idea to toss around, but if that really is what they’re thinking, it’s a flawed line of reasoning because what Hughes showed is that he could get hitters out as a reliever, not as a starter. Who knows, though.. I really can’t figure out the whole thing.

      • Templeton “Brendog” Peck

        exactly. the mvoes of the past week just do not make sense.

        sendign hoffmann back so much earlier than they had to.

        cutting gaudin who acted as depth AND it was said the dodgers might’ve been interested in before he signed with the A’s.

        then giving hughes the 5th spot and saying that it never really was a competition.

        color me confused.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          cutting gaudin who acted as depth AND it was said the dodgers might’ve been interested in before he signed with the A’s.

          You know, all Spring long we (here at RAB) have been trying to trade Mitre for Hoffmann’s minor league rights… perhaps we should have been advocating for trading Gaudin (plus salary) for Hoffmann’s minor league rights?

          Say we sent Gaudin + 1M or 1.5M to the Dodgers… I bet that would have done it. Probably too expensive, though… whatevs.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        It’s an interesting idea to toss around, but if that really is what they’re thinking, it’s a flawed line of reasoning because what Hughes showed is that he could get hitters out as a reliever, not as a starter.

        That. I’ve got a sinking feeling that when Hughes goes back to pitching 5-6-7 innings a night, and has to use 4 pitches instead of just 2, and has to pace himself and mix and match and change speeds and try to fool the same hitters 4 times instead of just once, he’ll regress and struggle (like all young starters do) and the org will wonder “Why is he not as aggressive/dominant as he was in the bullpen?”

        I hope they’re smart enough to realize why, but I have doubts.

        • Bo

          Going to be funny to see how you respond when they shift Hughes back to the pen and him and Joba team up as set up men.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size
            • pete

              that still gets me. but yeah, you’d hope they’d be smart enough not to expect Hughes to throw 180 innings of 4.00 ERA ball with an 8+K/9 and better than 3 BB/9. He’s gonna look a lot like Joba did last year, although if he isn’t screwed around with towards the end then he should come out with somewhat nicer numbers. Not sure how they’ll do that, though, without sending Joba to the rotation some time in august or september. Maybe they’re banking on ZacMac to be ready for a rotation spot come Sept.

          • http://www.pileofwit.com The Doctor

            It’ll be even funnier to see the guy who replaces him give up 6 runs in 4 innings so both Hughes and Joba can take naps in the pen.

            Or maybe it won’t be so funny.

  • Tank Foster

    I don’t know why we’re getting so worked up over this.

    The general theme with developing young pitchers today seems to be “the slower the better.”

    So he pitches in the bullpen this year. Maybe he’ll get some starts if/when there is an injury.

    Maybe if Pettitte retires after this season, he wins the job next season.

    I think a key thing that we really don’t know is what the kid wants to do. He says all the correct, “team” things when interviewed, but maybe he really wants to be a reliever.

    If that were the case, I’d want him as a reliever, even though otherwise I really want him to be a starter.

    • Mike HC

      In Joba’s case I agree with you. For the sake of his career there is no rush in in having him throw 200 innings year after year. But for the Yanks sake, he is not going to be inexpensive for that much longer. He will soon be able to cash in on his early success and the Yanks will not have gotten a full look at him as a starter to make an informed decision on his future.

      The Yanks had to make a decision here, but it is not like there was an optimal decision to make either way. There were and are going to be positive and negative consequences to any of the ways they decided to go.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      I think a key thing that we really don’t know is what the kid wants to do. He says all the correct, “team” things when interviewed, but maybe he really wants to be a reliever.

      Joba has said over and over and over and over and over again that he wants to be a starter.

      The only reason he’s interested in being a reliever is because he knows that’s the only role for him at present on the big league roster.

      There’s two decision trees here. In order of priority:

      A.) I want to be in the big leagues more than I want to be in the minor leagues.
      B.) I want to be a starter more than I want to be a reliever.

      Joba’s bargaining process makes him choose his non-desired choice for Part B because it gets him his desired choice for Part A. Joba’s choosing “big league reliever” as more desirable, all things considered, than “minor league starter”.

      Ironically, though, I think the best thing for the Yankees (both future AND present) is “minor league starter”.

      • Bo

        how is having him in scranton better for the team now?

        do u not understand that the FO and decision makers all value him more as a reliever and think this is the place where he will be most successful?

        • pete

          having joba in scranton is better for the team now because having everybody who is capable of starting adequately at the MLB level starting, somewhere, is better for the team now. Starting pitchers get injured. Somebody in the rotation will get injured. Having Joba pitching in Scranton gives the yankees a legitimate, above-average replacement for whoever that happens to be, and, unlike with hughes, the yankees would have the option of sending Joba back down when whoever he was replacing comes back.

  • Chip

    The only solace I can take from this is that maybe they’re really looking at the big picture and saying, well if Hughes would have been sent to the bullpen then there’s no way in hell he can start more than half a season next year due to it being 6 years since he actually had mostly a full season as a starter in.

    So maybe in a way this allows them to use both of them in the rotation next year where if Joba won, there could only be one in the rotation. This is all assuming that the winner went to the bullpen of course but maybe they really couldn’t convince themselves to send one of their better pitchers down to the minors.

    • pete

      hopefully. I’m just sick (already) of hoping that the yankees are making the right decisions.

  • pete

    Re: point #4 – ordinarily I would disagree with you – I think an irregular schedule and twice as many outings, and a less regimented (and/or thorough) warmup routine could be just as much cause for concern as starting would be. But in this case, I’m starting to wonder if that was, in fact, one of the biggest factors in the Yankees decision, and here’s why:

    Mariano Rivera, Joba Chamberlain, Damaso Marte, David Robertson, Alfredo Aceves, Chan-Ho Park, Sergio Mitre, Mark Melancon. That’s about as deep of a bullpen as you’ll find anywhere, and one indisputable characteristic of Girardi’s as a manager is that the man knows how to maximize his relievers’ effectiveness, which includes keeping their workloads manageable and keeping them on regular schedules. Considering the ridiculous amount of BP depth, Girardi should be able to employ a system that practically mirrors a starting rotation in the Pen this year, with guys picking up 2-4 innings (depending on the guy) in roughly 3 stints each week (just my guess).

    If Girardi does his magic in the BP again, then this could achieve several positive outcomes. For one, though it was never really in question, even before Joba’s entering, the ‘pen will dominate as a whole. This means fewer high-stress situations for Joba, since they could just as easily go to D-Rob, Ace, or Marte. It also means fewer high stress for Mariano, since it’s very unlikely he’ll be needed in the 8th at all this year. What basically all of this leads up to is the fact that, if used properly, which is wholly doable for Girardi & Co, Joba’s 2010 should be a legit “breather”, which could be huge considering his big innings bump last year.

    What I don’t understand is the commitment to Joba in the ‘pen all year, and the release of Gaudin. The yankees essentially made their 8th best starter their 6th starter (and arguably made their 6th best starter their 5th) in doing this. Also, I think that a season of relief into rotation would be beneficial for a number of reasons. First, it’d mean that Hughes could be shut down or put in the bullpen as he approached his innings cap, enabling the Yanks to make him a safer bet to be healthy in 2011. Second, it’d give Joba chance to start after getting some single-inning stints, which could feasibly help him regain some of his strikeout stuff. In 2008, when he transitioned to the rotation, he was still able to hit 98-99 with relative ease in many of his starts, and still had that wicked slider, and had plus command of both the FB and the slider, which helped him get out of jams via the K. I think there is an advantage in a starter getting a chance to relieve as far as his development is concerned, because relieving allows him to stretch out his arm completely, which can translate into better “reach-back” ability as a starter.

    I know some people will point to his injury in 2008 as a reason to shy away from this strategy, but I’m really not sure why. During the start in Texas when Joba went down, he had to dive out of the way of a Pudge Rodriguez throw down to second about two pitches before he was taken off the field. He landed directly on his shoulder. I think it was pretty obvious that this was the cause of his injury, not the throwing.

    • mustang

      Pete they should just give you your own thread and be done with it.
      God Lord man !!

    • Reggie C.

      Mark Melancon is still on the team? I thought it was all but guaranteed he’d start the season in Scranton (again). Poor Melancon. Dude probably makes any other bullpen in the majors.

      In terms of your “reach back” ability point … that’s a solid point I havent read on any thread yet. However, doesn’t a starter usually employ this ability in later innings as he’s tiring? It sounds like a recipe for injury honestly. Reaching back for velocity shouldn’t be happening in the 3rd/4th inning.

      • pete

        what i meant was, pitching is 100% muscle memory. If you’re coming off of ST, wherein you have to hold back a bit to make sure you don’t injure yourself by going at it too hard too soon, and then april/may, when you have to hold back because it’s cold, your arm will have developed muscle memory for your 92% fastball. See: Joba last year. Which is not to say that this is true for all starters or all pitchers, but I do think it’s true for Joba. I pitched in HS, and I remember having trouble getting it all the way up (heh) until the very end of the season, since I was so used to holding back. The one season i pitched out of the bullpen, I didn’t have this problem.

    • Bo

      would it kill u to condense those thoughts and get to the point?

      • pete

        i guess i’m just not as concise as you, bo. that or i just don’t like boversimplifying very complex issues.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          +1

  • http://generationnot.blogspot.com/ Steve S

    I’m not drinking this koolaid. This is a bad decision and there is no defending it. Cashman can say what he wants but this kid is in the bullpen as long as he wears pinstripes. We can try and deny it but its obvious they are keeping him in the bullpen (not to mention that that certain decision makers expressly said so, in rather public forums). And on that note, I’m glad Dave Eisland has such a big influence on these kinds of decisions, he has no conflict of interest when it comes to making good short term decisions as opposed to good long term decisions.

    Also, he could have worked with Mo if he were just named the fifth starter. And as for the other point, its great that we potentially sacrificed a potentially dominant front end starter so we can have bullpen depth. This is an absolute nightmare.

    • Bo

      So you’re saying Cashman is clueless with pitching?

      Dont worry. Cashman has igawa, pavano, wright, brackman, johnson, contreras, etc, etc to back him up.

      • pete

        this is a weirdly confusing comment…

      • http://generationnot.blogspot.com/ Steve S

        No I am saying Cashman has demonstrated he doesn’t know how to develop pitching.

  • Bo

    The S Jobbers will have to deal with the fact that Joba belongs in the pen and he makes the pen even better in 2010 and the future. Him being in the pen makes this team even better.

    And titles are what matter. Not developing young pitchers.

    • Rick in Boston

      There are just so many things wrong with those statements. Not the least of all that last part. O:S.

    • pete

      So when AJ Andy goes down (sorry Bexy) from a shoulder injury, and Mitre is pitching every fifth day, Joba being in the pen will make the team better? How? His grunts and farts are great, but are they enough to distract the opposing pitchers into giving back the 6 run cushion that Serge was kind enough to lend to them? Maybe, but idk if it’s wise to count on it. He’s just not proven enough as a gruntfarter, imo.

      • Rick in Boston

        I’m going to love seeing Bo bitching and moaning when Mitre is pitching.

        • pete

          i won’t. regardless of what bo’s doing, mitre will still be pitching. i just can’t see myself liking watching mitre pitch while jobber twiddles his thumbs in the bullpen

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          All roads lead to the same place: Cashman is a moron. When he does things that Bo agrees with, he did them wrongly somehow (or they were the obvious move that everyone would have made). When he does things that Bo disagrees with, he’s a flat out idiot.

          • pete

            well, to be fair, signing Mitre over Roy Halladay WAS moronic.

            /classic boversimplification’d

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

              Why we drafted Ian Kennedy instead of Tim Lincecum, I’ll never understand.

              • pete

                Why didn’t we get teh starburg!!!!??????

  • mustang

    Wow! After a few hours break I see that the therapy reality thread has gone nowhere I guess it just takes time.