Open Thread: More on Scottie Allen


We'll always have that walk-off walk, Juan. (AP Photo/Kathy Willens)

Earlier today the Yankees shipped the out-of-options Juan Miranda to the Diamondbacks for Single-A right-hander Scottie Allen. I hadn’t heard of Allen before today so needless to say I couldn’t add much of value, but thankfully Baseball America came through with a scouting report this afternoon. Take it away (no subs. req’d)…

Allen throws four pitches, three of which grade as average at times, but lacks the one dominating offering to put batters away. He sinks his fastball at 87-91 mph and occasionally breaks out a swing-and-miss slider in the high 70s or a changeup in the same range. His curveball is less refined, but he’s around the zone with it and all his pitches. Wiry strong, Allen has a quick arm, but he tends to tire visibly by the fourth inning. Still, he’s worth taking a flier on because he’s a teenager who already shows a feel for pitching.

By no means is Allen a great prospect, as I said in today’s Radio Show, but it’s certainly an interesting arm. Better than losing Miranda on waivers next April, that’s for sure. You really can’t ask for more in exchange. Anyway, our Depth Chart (and Draft Order Tracker) are now up-to-date. The roster’s looking rather sorry at the moment.

* * *

Here’s tonight’s open thread. The Devils are the only local team in action, but who wants to watch them? They’re 5-11-2 with the third worst record in the NHL. Yikes. Oh, and the Bears are playing the Dolphins, but you need the NFL Network to see that one. You guys know what to do, so have at it.

Categories : Open Thread


  1. Tonight’s painfully obvious observation that you all knew already and don’t need me to tell you but I’m going to anyway:

    Michael Kay is not a smart man.

    That is all.

    • Sean C says:

      I seriously doubt there is any weight of evidence to support this claim.

    • I Voted for Kodos says:

      You’d think someone with a melon that big would occasionally have something intelligent to say.

    • UWS says:

      Not that I disagree, but what did he say now?

      • That CC had a better year than Felix because he won 21 games and Felix only won 13, and that wins are the most important thing of all so we can’t just dismiss them, and that the reason Felix beat CC is because there’s an anti-New York bias in play.

        I think I about covered it. It was a regrettable hour of stupidity.

        • OOOH WAIT I almost forgot that CC pitched under pressure and Felix pitched in games that didn’t matter, and that Felix went 0-6 in May when his team was in it and only pitched well after his team was eliminated. That too.

          • I Voted for Kodos says:

            You know, I would argue that pitching in front of a historically bad offense would add pressure to a pitcher, not diminish it. Basically, Felix went into every game knowing that if he gave up 2 runs, he had almost no chance to win. Imagine the pressure of have to basically throw a shut out every time out.

            • That.

              You know what big leaguer doesn’t feel pressure? None of them.

              • I Voted for Kodos says:

                Exactly. I cringe whenever I hear anyone make a sports argument that primarily involves the word pressure. They begin to lose credibility.

                • Exactly. That late August Pirates-Diamondbacks game where both teams are 25 games out and there’s only 5,000 fans at the stadium? Yeah, those players feel pressure to perform in that situation too.

                  They’re still on television. Their successes and failures will still be chronicled forever. The snapshots they create will still be used by their potential employers to determine how much money to pay them when they arrive at their next negotiation point. They’re still building towards their eventual HoF candidacy.

                  There may be such thing as higher-pressure games, but there aren’t any pressure-free games. And the number of higher pressure games that exist is way smaller than people think.

                  Kay kept saying that “every one of CC’s games mattered because they were in the pennant race”.

                  CC pitches for the Yankees. He knows that even if he loses one of his starts, his team is probably good enough to pick him up and win enough games to make it to the playoffs anyway. Every pitch he threw this year was not “life or death”.

                  • bexarama says:

                    Keith Olbermann was also embarrassing himself on Twitter today. Saying if CC wasn’t good in the second half, Boston definitely would’ve caught the Yankees and stuff (OMG 2004!!!). I can almost get that argument for MVP, even if I don’t agree with it. I don’t get it for Cy Young. That’s just the straight-up best pitcher.

                  • Big Stein says:

                    you can tell me the amount of scrutiny and pressure a player faces in san diego is the same as Boston.

                    • I’m not saying it’s the same. I’m saying the argument that a player in San Diego faces NO pressure is wrong.

                      Sure, there’s a little bit more pressure in a bigger media market, but Felix’s games in Seattle were still pressure packed. Those ballplayers were still trying hard to win.

                      Every game where you’re actually trying to win has pressure to it. Even if those wins don’t matter much in the pennant race.

                    • I Voted for Kodos says:

                      I don’t think anyone said the amount of pressure on players was the same everywhere. What we said was that there is pressure on these guys no matter where they are playing. I’m willing to bet that the bulk of the pressure most players feel comes from within rather than from the media and fans.

                    • radnom says:

                      I’m not saying it’s the same. I’m saying the argument that a player in San Diego faces NO pressure is wrong.

                      Well ok, that strawman argument is successfully squashed. No one ever said that, its all relative.

                      Sure, there’s a little bit more pressure in a bigger media market

                      Sorry I dont agree that CC should have won the award, but why do you think that your estimation on the pressure difference is more valid than Kay’s?
                      It’s not. Neither of you have any clue. Me neither.

                    • Big Stein says:

                      it’s disingenuous to say “little bit”.

                      I once saw Denny Neagle say the pressure playing fore the yanks versus the braves was night and day.

                      I’m sure edd whitson and Javy would confirm that.

                    • Well ok, that strawman argument is successfully squashed. No one ever said that, its all relative.

                      That wasn’t a strawman argument, it was Kay’s argument. He argued that Felix pitched in pressure free games because the Mariners were out of it by June and their games didn’t matter, and thus he didn’t pitch under ANY pressure.

                    • radnom says:

                      That wasn’t a strawman argument, it was Kay’s argument. He argued that Felix pitched in pressure free games because the Mariners were out of it by June and their games didn’t matter, and thus he didn’t pitch under ANY pressure.

                      I didn’t listen to his show today but do you honestly think that is what he was saying? Even if that was his wording, he is obviously speaking comparatively between pitching for a last place team in Seattle vs. pitching for the Yankees.

                      If you seriously think he was literally trying to say how players not playing for big markets have ZERO pressure than I don’t know what to tell you.

          • bexarama says:

            I am so fucking tired of hearing about this anti-Yankee bias. I think ESPN wears their Red Sox Nation shirts as proudly as anyone else does, but Derek Jeter won a fucking Gold Glove.

            • Big Stein says:

              but sportswriters lover jeter because he always gives them access.

              The cardinal sin for writers is when a player won’t talk (bonds, manny). You can be a jerk (clemons) or cheat (mcgwire/papi), that’s okay, but don’t you dare say “no comment”.

              • bexarama says:

                Sure, Jeter always gives them access, but it’s not like anything he says is too revealing. And don’t act like sportswriters love Clemens or McGwire. They do love Ortiz.

                • Big Stein says:

                  sportswriters loved-loved-loved Rocket. not now. but before the scandal they were like love sick teens.

                  and yes jeter doesn’t say anything, but neither did torre (he was a complete bore), and they adored torre. they still do.

            • MikeD says:

              True, but those are voted by managers and coaches. Those who believe there is anti-NY bias are talking about the media.

          • Avi says:

            I know, it was terrible. I was listening and I was embarrassed for him. In general I like him for his reporting skills (not play by play) and the fact that you can turn on the radio in January and hear him someone talking about the Yanks.
            Don La Greca was doing everything he could to show him how dumb his argument was – to no avail.

        • In a related note Mark Teixeira should be AL MVP because he lead the league in Runs Scored. You can’t win if you don’t score runs DUMMIES!!!!

    • Big Stein says:

      are you saying sportswriters across the country don’t have a yankee bias?

  2. Lots of insanity today. The standout was the guy that said Miranda was more valuable than Berkman.

    Also, Rob was teh lulz.

  3. Dax says:

    I don’t know if there’s any truth to these, but if so, they are all ridiculous. Especially the Patriots one.

  4. 88-91? He has no chance of getting hitters out, ever! Trading someone who was clogging up the 40 man for a young pitcher with upside? Ha! Way to go Cash-douche!

    Some “ninja” indeed!


  5. UWS says:

    They’re 5-11-2 with the third worst record in the NHL.


  6. The Ancient Mariner says:

    The Brewers want to keep Prince Fielder…why? They’re not going to compete next year and he’s a free agent in 2012, at least now they can get like Jonathan Sanchez and Brandon Belt for him instead of a first round pick and a comp pick in 2012.

  7. Uke says:

    I sent Jim Callis a tweet asking how he feels about Scott Allie and his response was, “He’s OK. 88-91 mph sinker, some swing & miss to his slider.” Which for me is fine for a nobody like Miranda, another young arm to watch.

  8. Nucchemist says:

    A 19 yr interesting arm is a lot better than a 27 yr old who blocked.

  9. JGS says:

    Wow. I’ve never seen someone finish double jeopardy at -$6000 before. That’s SNL bad.

  10. bexarama says:

    Harold Reynolds says he worries for baseball because Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young o_O

    • UWS says:

      Yeah, that was a O:S moment.

      Apparently he thinks that pitchers are now going to think that wins aren’t important and stop helping their teams win. Or something. I think my brain shut down about 2 sentences in to prevent a meltdown.

    • Accent Shallow says:

      I know pitcher wins aren’t the best way of judging a season, but seeing someone with a 13-12 record win the CYA . . . ehhhhh.

      (I know, I know, Felix got <2 runs of support something like 15 times, and went 2-10 with a 2.84 ERA in those games.)

      • JGS says:

        CC had more wins in starts where he gave up 0-2 runs than Felix. Felix pitched eight more games where he gave up 0-2 runs.

        • Felix had nine no-decisions in 2010.

          He went at least 6 innings and gave up three or fewer runs in all nine of them. He went at least 7 innings and gave up 2 or fewer runs in seven of those nine no-decisions. He left the game with a lead or with the game tied in eight of those nine no-decisions.

          In Felix’s 12 losses, his team scored a total of 14 runs of support for him. That is not a misprint.

          13-12 is not at all an accurate description how good Felix Hernandez was in 2010. He was not “a .500 pitcher” as Michael Kay repeated over and over.

      • Dirty Pena says:

        Sorry but if you know wins aren’t a good way to judge a pitcher, and you know Felix was royally screwed on run support, and it’s a fact that the Cy Young is supposed to go for the pitcher, how can you possibly say “ehhhh”? I’m really just wondering because I’ve seen this “I know wins suck, I know Felix was awesome, I know his record is bad because of things out of his control, but I think someone else should’ve won the Cy” argument a lot, and I really don’t understand.

        • bexarama says:

          The real sabermetric argument is for Lee, Liriano, or Weaver, I think. Felix did well there, but he’s not the runaway winner. But people who say this then usually say CC or Price should’ve won, and they shouldn’t have.

        • Accent Shallow says:

          It’s not that I think someone else should have won, it’s just that the 13-12 record doesn’t inspire me to do backflips. Moreso the 12 losses — if he were, say, 13-8, that would be more palatable.

          Yes, I know that W-L record isn’t particularly meaningful, but as baseball fans, we internalize certain things — that a .300 BA is good, that winning 20 games is good, etc. It’s tough to overcome those internal biases (apparently not as tough as it was for King Felix to overcome the Mariners’ “offense”!)

          It’s just that a pitcher’s job isn’t necessarily to pitch well in the aggregate, but to pitch well in every game — if your shitty offense gives you 2 runs, you only yield 1, or preferably, 0. Unfortunately, pitching to the score doesn’t seem to be an ability — one can groove fastballs in an 8-0 game, but not make a perfect pitch every time when it’s 0-0 in the 2nd inning. So we have to reject that argument, and the result is the award on King Felix’s mantle.

          Also, if you’ll check below, at least one of those games was Brandon League’s fault — he came into a 5-1 game in the 8th, and turned it into a 6-5 loss. If League approaches competence, that’s win #14.

  11. First Time Poster says:

    I was just sifting through MLBTR articles today and saw Carlos Marmol’s name. I kind of forgotten about him this season. His numbers are gaudy, to say the least. Take a look:

    Aside from the BB/9, that has to be one of the better seasons from a reliever in a long, long time.

    • Accent Shallow says:

      He had a K/9 of 16.0 (!!!!), but a K/BB ratio of . . . 2.65.

      Sweet merciful crap.

      • I Voted for Kodos says:

        I love how he gave up 4.6 H/9 and still had a WHIP of 1.18.

        That’s some comically bad control from a guy who’s still super effective.

    • vin says:

      16 k/9! holy guacamole! and 4.6 h/9 to boot.

      • First Time Poster says:

        MLB 2k11* Stats:

        K/9: 16
        H/9: 4.6
        HR/9: .1(!!!)

        Funny how he has a H/9 of that but a WHIP over 1.

        … oh… wait… he was only 2-3… never mind… he sucks.

        • vin says:

          What’s interesting is that he had pretty decent control in the minors (when he was a starter). Maybe because all the young hitters were too busy flailing away at his fastball to bother taking a walk.

    • JGS says:

      The K/9 is a new all-time record, by a lot. Craig Kimbrel this year had a better one but only threw 20.2 innings (Marmol threw 77.2). After that, you have to lower the minimum IP down to six (!!!!!!!) to find anyone else with a K/9 better than Marmol’s this year.

    • YankeesJunkie says:

      That is absurd so is the 3.1 fWAR after 77 innings. Just unbelievable.

  12. bexarama says:

    Oh, so apparently everyone’s favorite Yankee fan Jack-O said the 2010 Yankees were the most overrated team in the history of baseball. After I was done LOL’ing, I started to wonder, what really was the most overrated team in baseball history? It’s not the 2004 Red Sox – they were actually good. Maybe the 1995 Mariners? Not in terms of what they did for Seattle, there’s a chance they saved the game in that city, but they beat the Yankees before they were THE YANKEES* then got pwnt by Cleveland.

    Sorry for my rambling.

    * disclaimer that the Yankees are always THE YANKEES

    • UWS says:

      The 2001 Mariners?

      • bexarama says:

        Meh, when you’re 116-46 with a Pyth (not that it’s the be-all-end-all) of 109-53 you’re pretty damn good IMO. Just got unlucky in the playoffs.

        • Accent Shallow says:

          I dunno, their pitching staff was pretty balanced, rather than having one ace up top, so that certainly didn’t help.

          Also, look at the lineup. Not exactly terrifying.

          • bexarama says:

            I know what you’re saying about the pitching staff being balanced. That’s one of those “my shit doesn’t work in the playoffs” situations though. :/

            Re: the lineup not being terrifying, I agree, but they scored 927 runs. That’s a lot, and it was first in the AL, second to only Colorado in all of baseball. Collective team 117 OPS+, which lead the league (their OPS trailed Cleveland and Texas, but not OPS+).

            I dunno. It’s just, they won 116 games, and no one talks about them as an all-time great team. Is it just because they didn’t win the World Series?

            • vin says:

              It’s just, they won 116 games, and no one talks about them as an all-time great team. Is it just because they didn’t win the World Series?


              They had an unbelievably balanced offense. Ichiro, Boone, and Edgar were spectacular. Olerud, Cameron, McLemore, and Javier were very good.

            • Accent Shallow says:

              It’s just, they won 116 games, and no one talks about them as an all-time great team.

              Huh, I have the opposite experience — that everyone lauds them, and I’m just not that impressed with them.

              And yes, not winning the Series hurts, but it’s also being beaten pretty convincingly by a good (but not great) Yankees team.

    • 2010 Red Sox. There was such a love affair with an 89 win, third place team. The Blue Jays were only four games worse than them.

    • vin says:

      Interesting. I’m not sure how to go about determining the most overrated teams in history – maybe comparing w/l record to pythag is a starting point. Or teams with most wins that fizzled in the playoffs (01 M’s).

      • bexarama says:

        If anything Pythag shows the 2010 Yankees were underrated. I think they had a better record there than the 2009 Yankees. (Again, that’s not the be-all-end-all, at all. Now that the season’s over I feel pretty comfortable saying that the 2009 Yankees were better than the 2010 Yankees, and not just because they won the World Series – and the 2010 Yankees were still really good.)

        • vin says:

          The 2009 Yanks were a little better than this year’s team because:

          1) Jeter
          2) AJ

          Other than those two players, I’d say they were pretty evenly matched. The Yanks got good production from DH. The OF didn’t miss Damon (at all). The bench was fine – especially after the trade deadline. The bullpens were both really good.

          • bexarama says:

            Tex and A-Rod were better last year too. But yeah, it’s not like the 2010 Yankees were horrible or really in any way all that overrated, since all year I heard about how gutless and old they were and how they just couldn’t compare to 2009. I mean, even when they were deep in the August/September yuckiness, a good number of their wins were very “gutty.” Think A-Rod’s HR against the Orioles’ closer, that game in Tampa Bay won on Posada’s HR, etc.

    • After I was done LOL’ing, I started to wonder, what really was the most overrated team in baseball history?

      The 2000 Yankees?


    • bexarama says:

      Also as a side note, if you want to remind yourself why everyone hates Yankee fans, read the baseball Tweets on and… uh… enjoy?

  13. Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Blog says:

    For fun, and because I like playing with numbers in Excel, I tried to get pythagorean W/L for the Cy young pitchers. I used the pitchers actual GS, IP, and Runs (included unearened runs since they actually scored). I then got league averages for runs scored and runs allowed (you’d think they would be the same but strangely enough according to BR teams scored 10097 Runs, but pitchers only allowed 10027 runs (9295 ER), thoughts on that?)

    Using the averages, I got the number of runs relievers (meh, I had to use averages of all types of pitchers lol whatevs) would have given up in the innings (assuming 9 inning games) the pitcher didn’t pitch.

    Also, I used the average runs scored to come up with the number of runs the offense scored.

    With all this and using the Pythagorean W/L formula I came up with the following:


    Felix 34, .662, 23-11
    Price 31, .629, 20-11
    CC 34, .591, 20-14
    Leste 32, .582, 19-13
    Weaver 34, .600 20-14
    Buchholz 28, .638, 18-10
    Lee 28, .591, 17-11
    Cahill 30, .599, 18-12

    After doing this, I thought someone may have already done an actual good job of creating this, but it was fun and the won loss records do seem to be appropriate for the pitcher. Anyone seen anywhere that someone tried to do this?

    • vin says:

      Nerd! Where’s your binder, nerd! Get a life, nerd!

      Sorry… I’m just mad someone else shares my passion of coming up with random “stats” / projections using Excel.

  14. The Indians had some awesome teams back in the 90s. The 95 and 97 teams should have won at least one title.

  15. Accent Shallow says:

    In more Felix-related news, every time I see Brandon League pitch, I can’t believe he’s not a top-level setup man or closer. The man has electric stuff.

    However, he’s consistently had a problem with high leverage situations throughout his career. Unclutch? Noise in the data?

    (How does this apply to King Felix, you ask? See: this game and this game.)

  16. JGS and I went and did Mo and Matt’s challenge at TYU and came up with a team that fits the following parameters:

    Combined payroll not to exceed $85 million
    No more than four players from each division except the 25th man can be from any
    No more than three pre-arbitration eligible player.

    Posey C
    Longoria 3B
    Kinsler 2B
    Tulo SS
    Adrian Gonzalez 1B
    Bautista RF/LF
    Bourn CF
    Hamilton RF/LF
    Young DH


    Felix, Lester, Cain, JJ, Lirano.


    CJ Wilson (swingman), Soria, Marmol, Thornton, Rhodes, Saito.


    either Joaquin Benoit, bringing total payroll to $70 million, or Mariano, which would bring payroll all the way up to $84 million.

    That team, either version, combined in 2010 for over 100 bWAR. The 2001 Mariners were at 66.

  17. bexarama says:

    an ESPN comment on Felix winning the Cy Young:

    CY FRAUD. If the Yankees could stop being robots and taking pitches all night even when they KNOW the pitcher throws strikes Queen Felix wouldn’t have even been a .500 pitcher. But no, does not compute with their one-dimensional offensive approach and android manager. And let’s talk about the Queen sitting out his last start – cluck, cluck, cluck – because everyone knows a 13-13 pitcher wouldn’t win this award. Statistics are for LOSERS and it’s wins that count.

  18. first time lawng time says:

    Just wanted to say that although I would have liked to CC win (only because he’s on my team) I am very, very happy that Felix won the award.

    BBWA made the right call on this one.

    And I read what tommie wrote above about what Michael and I have this to say:
    Michael is an absolute moron. There are so many things wrong with his argument, but most of you guys covered it so I have nothing to say.

  19. Steve O. says:

    From the ridiculous trades regarding TJU department:

  20. first time lawng time says:

    I don’t get why people don’t understand how win/loss for a pitcher is a pretty useless statistic.

    I mean I understand it if you’re new to the game and don’t follow that often. But people who have watched for a long time, people who watch and follow an entire season, and professional analysts not understanding that confuses me a little.

  21. first time lawng time says:

    So has anyone here ever played MBL2K10? Is it any good? Is it hard?
    I don’t know anyone that plays it so I figured I’d ask you guys.

  22. “Seymour (NYC)

    Why do some of the prospect gurus still select Casey Kelly over Manuel Banuelos?
    (1:33 PM)

    Better fastball command, more athletic, still has some projection. I don’t think there’s a wrong answer between the two.”


  23. nsalem says:

    The 2010 Mariners were 44-84 games when Felix did not start (44 games under .500)
    The 1972 Phillies were 30 and 97 when Steve Carlton did not start (67 games under .500)

  24. bexarama says:

    Dang, on the 2001 AL CYA, via Sports Illustrated:

    2001 American League

    Did Win: Roger Clemens, Yankees: 20-3, 3.51 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 220 1/3 IP, 213 K, 72 BB, 0 CG, 0 SHO

    Should Have Won: Mike Mussina, Yankees: 17-11, 3.15 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 228 2/3 IP, 214 K, 42 BB, 4 CG, 3 SHO

    Mussina didn’t get a single first-place vote and finished fifth overall. The Yankees scored 5.74 runs per game for Clemens, but just 4.21 runs per game for Mussina. In large part thanks to that run support, Clemens won 16 straight games from May 26 to September 19 and boasted a 20-1 record at the end of the streak, by which time he had all but locked up what became his sixth Cy Young award. Clemens gave up five runs in a start three times during that streak but went 2-0 in those games thanks to the Yankees scoring 29 runs in those three contests.

    Poor Moose. I knew he deserved it, but I always forget he barely got any votes at all. IIRC he also led the league in FIP, and it was under 3.

  25. yankees1717 says:

    what made the least sense about tommy boy/rob’s argument today, was that he was arguing that the allen/miranda trade was bad because melancon/berkman was bad. sure, even if you don’t like the melancon/berkman trade (which i do), you still can’t use that as evidence that a completely seperate trade isn’t a good one.

  26. On us signing Rafael DePaula: This is us telling the Mariners to suck it from stealing Felix from us. Let’s hope DePaula is half as good as Felix.

  27. I don’t know what the lightning and flyers are doing, but they’re not playing hockey

  28. Steve H says:

    In Moose’s 21 career postseason starts his team scored 3 runs or fewer 14 times.

  29. yankees1717 says:

    sox fans on mlbtr are saying that ellsbury/bard is WAY TOO MUCH for a player who could easily be a bust!!

    i know i would trade gardner and whatever non-mo reliever they want for upton.

  30. Esteban says:

    Kev (NYC)

    Is Montero is an A+ bat, how high do you rate Romine’s fielding ability?
    (1:19 PM)

    Romine can’t catch – as in, he struggles very badly to receive the ball. Plus arm, but I’m not sure how you get from where he is now to acceptable major-league receiver.

  31. Reggie C. says:

    I’m listening to the RAB Radio show podcast from today and MIke Axisa just said Rafael DePaula could start in Low-A Charleston.

    Since DePaula turns 20 in April, i could see the organization put DePaula in the Charleston ‘pen and work on the kid’s command and secondary stuff in side sessions while getting DePaula some real competition.

  32. All Star Carl says:

    Scotty Brosius.

    Young Cashmoney fired up.

  33. pat says:

    Don’t know who else is stuck with basic cable, but Pix 11 has absolutely butchered their evening newscast. They’re trying to be cutting edge but it just comes off as incredibly tacky and the production quality is simply horrendous. Very poorly played Mauer.

    • MikeD says:

      I accidentally caught Pix a month back and couldn’t believe they were still calling it a newscast. Seemed to be a combination of TMZ and game show, with B-level talent. To say it was horrible is an insult to the word horrible.

  34. JGS says:

    More Moose facts:

    There are 34 pitchers who have thrown 1000+ innings in pinstripes.

    Moose’s 1278 strikeouts are sixth on that list, and he has about 800 fewer innings than anyone ahead of him. He is 12th in wins, but again is 200 innings shy of anyone ahead of him, and most of them are way more than even that.

    His 115 ERA+ is tied for 13th, just four points behind Ron Guidry, and one of the guys ahead is Mo (and his career 204 mark).

    His 318 walks are the 8th fewest, and he is nearly 300 innings ahead of anyone behind him.

    • Moshe Mandel says:

      And Moose’s time as a Yankee doesn’t compare to his time as an Oriole. So he has a career as a ace in Baltimore, then comes to a legendary franchise and puts up numbers that places him on the team’s all-time rankings in some important categories. Dude is a Hall of Famer.

  35. Gonzo says:

    I know it’s a long shot, but anyone else praying that Javy and a team (Marlins) agree to a deal before the 23rd?

    That would be HUGE. Getting a draft pick out of that guy would be a magic trick.

  36. MikeD says:

    Fun fact: Despite pitching at three different levels, our top pitching prospect, Manny Banuelos, didn’t win a single game in 2010.

    Pitcher wins. Overrated.

    • JGS says:

      Fun fact: Despite pitching at three different levels, our top pitching prospect, Manny Banuelos, didn’t win a single game in 2010.

      Pitcher wins. Overrated Worthless.


    • All Star Carl says:

      Phil Hughes and Andy Pettitte didn’t win a game in the ALCS.

      Pitcher wins. Worthless.

      We still won!

      • bexarama says:

        Pitcher wins are worthless. TEAM wins are not.

        • All Star Carl says:

          CY Young’s 511 wins are worthless?

          I guess in the era of the 6-7 inning pitcher wins are worthless.

          Koufax went 27-9 with 27 complete games.

          Can’t tell him those wins are worthless.

          • JGS says:

            Sure I can.

            Koufax was awesome in 1966 because he pitched 323 innings with a 1.73 ERA, 0.985 WHIP, and 317 strikeouts against just 77 walks and completed 27 games.

            That he happened to either pitch the whole game that his team scored more runs than their opponents or he left the game after 5 innings with a lead that was never relinquished is entirely incidental.

            Koufax had 27 wins because he was great. He was not great because he had 27 wins.

          • Gonzo says:

            I think the full backlash against wins has been waiting for this. I agree that wins aren’t worthless. However, there are now other stats that tell a more complete story without intertwining one’s accomplishments (pitching) with another’s (team’s hitting).

            For example, Koufax went 323ip with a FIP of 2.07 and an ERA of 1.73. That’s holy sh*t territory.

            The whole wins are useless rant is a little silly, and I am growing a distaste for it, to be honest. I think what they mean is that they are outdated statistic. I think every statistic tells us something (even wins), but we should always be on the lookout for better (more accurate/descriptive) statistics.

            • bexarama says:

              This, pretty much. Though I’m not getting tired of the “wins are useless” rant because, well, they are.

              • Gonzo says:

                Are they useless in certain arguments? Absolutely.
                To say they are useless is to say they tell us absolutely nothing, which IIRC, even KLaw will tell you is untrue.

                For example, if wins are useless, then wins must be statistically independent of a picther’s ability. They are not.

                Wins are a just out of date. Wins are like mimeograph machines, with hard, and extra, work you can get a presentation together, but why bother nowadays when you have e-mail and laser printers? They served their purpose, but why bother in today’s age?

        • Team stats and individual stats are usually inversely important.

          Pitcher wins = least important
          Team wins = most important
          Hitter Runs Scored = unimportant
          Team runs scored = VERY important.

  37. Teh Compensation Pick says:

    Did Thames ever end up signing in Japan?

  38. Avi says:

    The yanks are loosing their #1 setup man (Kerry Wood). I personally don’t think Joba/Robertson/Logan is enough in quality or quantity for a hundred win team. According to reports the Yanks’ FO is working hard on acquiring an 8th inning guy.
    What would you do, who would you get?

  39. All Star Carl says:

    So Cliff Lee and and Tim Lincecum didn’t pitch well?

    Cliff gave up more runs and got the loss. Tim got the win.

    That’s worthless how?

    • Steve H says:

      So what if Lincecum went 9 shutout innings, Brian Wilson pitched a scoreless top of the 10th and Lee went 9 2/3 innings and gave up one run and took the loss in the bottom of the 10th. Wilson gets the win, Lee gets the loss, Lincecum gets nothing.

      Would that loss mean that Lee didn’t pitch well. Would a no decision mean Lincecum didn’t pitch well? Would Wilson getting the win mean he pitched better than both of them?

      Pitches wins do not tell us how well a pitcher pitched.

      • All Star Carl says:

        Watching the game and looking at the Box score will tell you they both pitched well.

        Tim left the game early, and didn’t factor in the decision.

        Lee pitched great, but didn’t pitch well enough to win as he got walked off I assume?

    • bexarama says:

      In Game 1 of the WS, Tim gave up 4 R/ER in 5.2 IP. If I did my math right, that’s a 6.92 ERA. That’s not “well”

  40. ChrisR says:

    I love pitcher wins because they are fun to brag about, however that doesn’t tell how good a pitcher is. Someone can pitch 9 IP 2 H 1 ER 12 K and still get a loss, does that mean he is bad because he got the loss? Also someone can pitch 5 IP 10 H 7 ER 2 K and still get a win, does that mean that pitcher is good?

  41. Bulldozer says:

    Pitcher wins!!! The hot topic of the night. I agree that they are pointless in all discussions, but to say useless is a bit extreme. Has a “bad” or average pitcher ever recorded 300 wins? There are better statistics to prove a 300 win pitcher was “good,” but to say they are “useless” is a bit harsh. I agree they are useless in CY Young voting though.

    • Average (to hell with it, I say below average) pitcher to win 300: Tom Glavine

      • Hughesus Christo says:

        Yeah… no.

      • Bulldozer says:

        Yeah, I am gonna go out on a limb and say the hockey player wasn’t below average.

      • bexarama says:

        Tom Glavine has a career 118 ERA+. That includes when he was just sticking around at the end to be meh. You can argue he’s overrated. Below average? That’s just silly.

        But anyway, Glavine has 300 wins and so does Randy Johnson. They are both very, very, very different pitchers. I said it before, you probably don’t get to 250/300 wins, ESPECIALLY today, if you suck. If you get to that many wins, you’ve had a very long and productive career. But there are better ways of judging that than just wins.

        • Bulldozer says:

          So you just admitted that you can form the basis of a conclusion based on wins???

          Yes, there are better ways to get to go. Are wins crude, anachronistic, and painful sometimes, hells to the yes.

          • bexarama says:

            So you just admitted that you can form the basis of a conclusion based on wins???

            Looking at careers? Sure. There are just so many other better stats that I don’t know why you’d want to use them, but sure.

            As far as determining who was the best pitcher in any one given season, I’ll say it. Yes, I think they’re worthless.

            • All Star Carl says:

              Nothing wrong with that at all.

              Felix pitched better than CC. He wins Cy Young.

              Still doesn’t make the win worthless.

            • Bulldozer says:

              Ahh, ok clarification. I agree. I just don’t agree with the blanket statement that they are useless. That insinuates that they tell us absolutely nothing in all circumstances.

              • JGS says:

                They don’t tell you anything that other, better stats don’t say without the added noise that wins throw in.

                • Bulldozer says:

                  That’s correct. That still doesn’t make them useless in all discussion. More like obsolete.

                  • JGS says:

                    Depends on what you are using them for. Over long careers, they can crudely separate the good from the bad. They have never been able to separate the good from the very good though, so most things we talk about wins for (Hall of Fame discussion, Cy Youngs), they actually are, and always have been, useless.

      • All Star Carl says:

        Don’t agree with this.

    • JGS says:

      Early Wynn was decidedly average for the last seven years of his career (ERA+ of exactly 100 in his final 1329 innings). He doesn’t sniff Cooperstown without that magic number. For perspective, Mariano Rivera has more career bWAR than Wynn.

      Wins at the lengthy career level are decent at separating the good from the bad. At any level, they are terrible at separating the good from the very good from the great. Therefore they are useless as an analytic tool.

      • Bulldozer says:

        Cooperstown red herring aside, Early Wynn had a career ERA+ of 107. That is by definition above average. He also had a career FIP of 3.64.

        • JGS says:

          You can’t take that 3.64 out of context, a 3.64 FIP then is not the same as a 3.64 FIP now. And Cooperstown isn’t a red herring. He knew full well that he wouldn’t make it to the Hall without that 300 so he kept going when he otherwise would have retired. His 300th win was the second to last start he ever made.

          • Hughesus Christo says:

            How many guys do you know about with 295 wins and no HOF votes? There was also this war thing during Wynn’s career that would have factored into his vote if 300 was that important.

            And again, he was 43 when he got the last win.

            • JGS says:

              Tommy John had 288 and never came close, ditto Jim Kaat at 283. Both of those guys were older than Wynn when they recorded their final win. Look how hard a time Bert Blyleven has been having with his 287, and he should have been a slam dunk years ago.

              Bobby Mathews had 297 and didn’t get in, but that can’t really be compared.

            • Bulldozer says:

              You fell for the red herring!!!

          • Bulldozer says:

            I discussed 300 wins not HOF cred. That is another discussion. Therefore, you introduced a red herring. Career ERA+ 107, Career ERA 3.54, Career FIP 3.64. Below average?

            • JGS says:

              You are technically correct. No “below average” pitcher has ever gotten to 300 wins.

              No below average pitcher has ever gotten to 450 overall decisions either. Longevity = value. Wins come with longevity. Wins do not equal value.

              • Bulldozer says:

                Isn’t longevity a function of ability (as in good abaility)? I mean teams aren’t going to just keep signing below average pitchers to let them get to 450 decisions (assuming your stattement is correct), right? So couldn’t BOTH 450 decisions and 300 wins tell us a pitcher is above average? Wouldn’t that all be rooted in the pitchers ability, which is what all these statistics are trying to calculate anyway, right?

                It sounds like longevity is just another red herring. I said, no below average pitcher has reached 300 wins. It sounds like you agree, correct?

                • All Star Carl says:

                  People just hate the win. Don’t know why.

                  • bexarama says:

                    People just hate the win. Don’t know why.

                    Because people really use them to judge who’s the best pitcher, each individual year, and say ridiculous things like that Felix in 2010 didn’t “know how to win” and stuff. At least from my POV.

                • JGS says:

                  no below average pitcher has reached 300 wins. It sounds like you agree, correct?

                  That’s a pretty objective statement. It is of course true.

                  I’m arguing that it’s not really relevant. Those guys got to 300 because they were great (or in Wynn’s case, merely good for a really long time). They were not great because of the 300 wins. It is theoretically possible (though it hasn’t happened) for a pitcher to get 300 wins while not being a good pitcher. It is not possible for a pitcher to amass a 130 ERA+ or 70 bWAR while being a bad pitcher.

                  • Bulldozer says:

                    Ok, now this is getting silly. I have no problem with what you just said. You are the one that tried to disprove my statement that no below average pitcher has reached 300 wins. Then you tried to, through red herrings (HOF cred + Longevity), make me state something else entirely.

      • Hughesus Christo says:

        Another example of what happens when people bend over backwards to “make a point”

        You just shat on Early Wynn for having a 100 ERA+ in his ages 37 through 43 seasons in the late 1950s/early 60s. That’s ridiculous.

  42. Hughesus Christo says:

    Do we need the ridiculous hyperbole? Pitcher wins have historically been overvalued, but they are not “worthless.”

  43. DH says:

    Just a quick idea I would like to hear some opinion on…say Cliff Lee decides he doesn’t feel comfortable signing with the Yankees. Now I hate stupid trade proposals more than anyone but after reading some stuff it feels like the Braves may covet a defensive CF’er and Braves fans seem to think Gardner for Jurrjens (and in some cases even Jurrjens + another mid-level prospect) would be fair. How would you guys feel about the no-Lee scenario of trying to sign Crawford (or to a even to a lesser extent trade for Upton if Crawford didn’t work out) and then exchanging Gardner for Jair…only in the case of Cliff Lee not working out.

    Jair – 25 yr old for 2011; 11.6 combined WAR from 07-09 bf injury plagued 2010; arbitration eligible after 2011.

  44. Jenny says:

    Does Mussina go into the hall of fame as an Oriole or Yankee?

    And will it bother you if he goes into the Hall as an O ?

  45. mbonzo says:

    So this is the year 2009 and the Yankees happen to find Justin Upton on the trade market instead of Granderson. Would Montero, Jackson, and Kennedy + a few throw ins make this happen?

    • JGS says:


      Montero was further away, Jackson would never be a good enough piece to land Upton, and Upton would have just come off a ridiculously insane year at age 21.

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