Open Thread: More on Scottie Allen

Reality sets in for the Rangers
A glimpse at the Notre Dame/Army secondary market
We'll always have that walk-off walk, Juan. (AP Photo/Kathy Willens)

Earlier today the Yankees shipped the out-of-options Juan Miranda to the Diamondbacks for Single-A right-hander Scottie Allen. I hadn’t heard of Allen before today so needless to say I couldn’t add much of value, but thankfully Baseball America came through with a scouting report this afternoon. Take it away (no subs. req’d)…

Allen throws four pitches, three of which grade as average at times, but lacks the one dominating offering to put batters away. He sinks his fastball at 87-91 mph and occasionally breaks out a swing-and-miss slider in the high 70s or a changeup in the same range. His curveball is less refined, but he’s around the zone with it and all his pitches. Wiry strong, Allen has a quick arm, but he tends to tire visibly by the fourth inning. Still, he’s worth taking a flier on because he’s a teenager who already shows a feel for pitching.

By no means is Allen a great prospect, as I said in today’s Radio Show, but it’s certainly an interesting arm. Better than losing Miranda on waivers next April, that’s for sure. You really can’t ask for more in exchange. Anyway, our Depth Chart (and Draft Order Tracker) are now up-to-date. The roster’s looking rather sorry at the moment.

* * *

Here’s tonight’s open thread. The Devils are the only local team in action, but who wants to watch them? They’re 5-11-2 with the third worst record in the NHL. Yikes. Oh, and the Bears are playing the Dolphins, but you need the NFL Network to see that one. You guys know what to do, so have at it.

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Reality sets in for the Rangers
A glimpse at the Notre Dame/Army secondary market
  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

    Tonight’s painfully obvious observation that you all knew already and don’t need me to tell you but I’m going to anyway:

    Michael Kay is not a smart man.

    That is all.

    • Sean C

      I seriously doubt there is any weight of evidence to support this claim.

    • I Voted for Kodos

      You’d think someone with a melon that big would occasionally have something intelligent to say.

    • UWS

      Not that I disagree, but what did he say now?

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        That CC had a better year than Felix because he won 21 games and Felix only won 13, and that wins are the most important thing of all so we can’t just dismiss them, and that the reason Felix beat CC is because there’s an anti-New York bias in play.

        I think I about covered it. It was a regrettable hour of stupidity.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          OOOH WAIT I almost forgot that CC pitched under pressure and Felix pitched in games that didn’t matter, and that Felix went 0-6 in May when his team was in it and only pitched well after his team was eliminated. That too.

          • I Voted for Kodos

            You know, I would argue that pitching in front of a historically bad offense would add pressure to a pitcher, not diminish it. Basically, Felix went into every game knowing that if he gave up 2 runs, he had almost no chance to win. Imagine the pressure of have to basically throw a shut out every time out.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

              That.

              You know what big leaguer doesn’t feel pressure? None of them.

              • I Voted for Kodos

                Exactly. I cringe whenever I hear anyone make a sports argument that primarily involves the word pressure. They begin to lose credibility.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                  Exactly. That late August Pirates-Diamondbacks game where both teams are 25 games out and there’s only 5,000 fans at the stadium? Yeah, those players feel pressure to perform in that situation too.

                  They’re still on television. Their successes and failures will still be chronicled forever. The snapshots they create will still be used by their potential employers to determine how much money to pay them when they arrive at their next negotiation point. They’re still building towards their eventual HoF candidacy.

                  There may be such thing as higher-pressure games, but there aren’t any pressure-free games. And the number of higher pressure games that exist is way smaller than people think.

                  Kay kept saying that “every one of CC’s games mattered because they were in the pennant race”.

                  CC pitches for the Yankees. He knows that even if he loses one of his starts, his team is probably good enough to pick him up and win enough games to make it to the playoffs anyway. Every pitch he threw this year was not “life or death”.

                  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                    Keith Olbermann was also embarrassing himself on Twitter today. Saying if CC wasn’t good in the second half, Boston definitely would’ve caught the Yankees and stuff (OMG 2004!!!). I can almost get that argument for MVP, even if I don’t agree with it. I don’t get it for Cy Young. That’s just the straight-up best pitcher.

                  • Big Stein

                    you can tell me the amount of scrutiny and pressure a player faces in san diego is the same as Boston.

                    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                      I’m not saying it’s the same. I’m saying the argument that a player in San Diego faces NO pressure is wrong.

                      Sure, there’s a little bit more pressure in a bigger media market, but Felix’s games in Seattle were still pressure packed. Those ballplayers were still trying hard to win.

                      Every game where you’re actually trying to win has pressure to it. Even if those wins don’t matter much in the pennant race.

                    • I Voted for Kodos

                      I don’t think anyone said the amount of pressure on players was the same everywhere. What we said was that there is pressure on these guys no matter where they are playing. I’m willing to bet that the bulk of the pressure most players feel comes from within rather than from the media and fans.

                    • radnom


                      I’m not saying it’s the same. I’m saying the argument that a player in San Diego faces NO pressure is wrong.

                      Well ok, that strawman argument is successfully squashed. No one ever said that, its all relative.


                      Sure, there’s a little bit more pressure in a bigger media market

                      Sorry I dont agree that CC should have won the award, but why do you think that your estimation on the pressure difference is more valid than Kay’s?
                      It’s not. Neither of you have any clue. Me neither.

                    • Big Stein

                      it’s disingenuous to say “little bit”.

                      I once saw Denny Neagle say the pressure playing fore the yanks versus the braves was night and day.

                      I’m sure edd whitson and Javy would confirm that.

                    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                      Well ok, that strawman argument is successfully squashed. No one ever said that, its all relative.

                      That wasn’t a strawman argument, it was Kay’s argument. He argued that Felix pitched in pressure free games because the Mariners were out of it by June and their games didn’t matter, and thus he didn’t pitch under ANY pressure.

                    • radnom


                      That wasn’t a strawman argument, it was Kay’s argument. He argued that Felix pitched in pressure free games because the Mariners were out of it by June and their games didn’t matter, and thus he didn’t pitch under ANY pressure.

                      I didn’t listen to his show today but do you honestly think that is what he was saying? Even if that was his wording, he is obviously speaking comparatively between pitching for a last place team in Seattle vs. pitching for the Yankees.

                      If you seriously think he was literally trying to say how players not playing for big markets have ZERO pressure than I don’t know what to tell you.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            I am so fucking tired of hearing about this anti-Yankee bias. I think ESPN wears their Red Sox Nation shirts as proudly as anyone else does, but Derek Jeter won a fucking Gold Glove.

            • Big Stein

              but sportswriters lover jeter because he always gives them access.

              The cardinal sin for writers is when a player won’t talk (bonds, manny). You can be a jerk (clemons) or cheat (mcgwire/papi), that’s okay, but don’t you dare say “no comment”.

              • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                Sure, Jeter always gives them access, but it’s not like anything he says is too revealing. And don’t act like sportswriters love Clemens or McGwire. They do love Ortiz.

                • Big Stein

                  sportswriters loved-loved-loved Rocket. not now. but before the scandal they were like love sick teens.

                  and yes jeter doesn’t say anything, but neither did torre (he was a complete bore), and they adored torre. they still do.

                  • http://twitter.com/firstheart42 seimiya

                    Hard not to love the manager of a team that wins three world series rings in four years.

                    • http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

                      As a supposedly objective sportswriter, you shouldn’t “love” or “hate” anyone. That’s the problem.

            • MikeD

              True, but those are voted by managers and coaches. Those who believe there is anti-NY bias are talking about the media.

          • Avi

            I know, it was terrible. I was listening and I was embarrassed for him. In general I like him for his reporting skills (not play by play) and the fact that you can turn on the radio in January and hear him someone talking about the Yanks.
            Don La Greca was doing everything he could to show him how dumb his argument was – to no avail.

            • Avi

              I also feel that just like Cy Young is the pitcher of the year and therefore Felix deserved it, so to MVP should be player of the year; regardless of the team’s success.

              • Hughesus Christo
                • Avi

                  No one cares about the Hank Aaron award. If we’re going to reward pitchers for their individual performance with the Cy Young we should do the same for MVP.
                  A player has no control over weather the rest of his team sucks.

                  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                    I don’t get to say this often, Avi, but:

                    You’re absolutely right. I agree with you. Spot on.

                    • Avi

                      Holy Sh-t!!
                      I’m worried that the something is going terribly wrong with the universe here. Let’s go argue about something below.

        • http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

          In a related note Mark Teixeira should be AL MVP because he lead the league in Runs Scored. You can’t win if you don’t score runs DUMMIES!!!!

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            Jason Bartlett should have won the AL SS Gold Glove, because he had more Shortstop Wins than Derek Jeter did. How can Jeter have had a better year defensively than Bartlett if Bartlett lead the league in Shortstop Wins?

    • Big Stein

      are you saying sportswriters across the country don’t have a yankee bias?

  • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

    Lots of insanity today. The standout was the guy that said Miranda was more valuable than Berkman.

    Also, Rob was teh lulz.

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

      That was Rob!

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Those two guys were the same guy.

      tommy boy = Rob

      • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

        Wow, someone is that obsessed with getting his points across that he goes to the trouble of bypassing an IP ban and using multiple handles to spew garbage.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          Where the hell are the death panels I was promised?

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        I like how tommy Roboy got banned, and then Rob came back to say he could sockpuppet us any time he wanted to. Except no, he couldn’t, because we’d all know it was him in .05 seconds.

    • Accent Shallow

      Who would you rather have going forward? I might take Miranda, because Berkman looks pretty toasty.

      Neither can hit LHP, but what are you gonna do?

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        I’d rather have the one that I can stash in AAA. Since that is “neither”, I’ll take “neither”.

  • Dax

    http://www.mixmakers.net/forum.....02258.html

    I don’t know if there’s any truth to these, but if so, they are all ridiculous. Especially the Patriots one.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      If I had a time machine, after killing Hitler, I’d go back to the late 1990s and blow up the Nike design lab, and then I’d use the money I made by betting on sporting events (with preknowledge of the results) to pay off all the Nike design specialists to sit at home doing absolutely nothing for the rest of their lives.

      Nike sucks.

      • Accent Shallow

        If I had a time machine, after killing Hitler,

        Not necessarily the best idea.

        And no, it’s not that I’m an Anti-Semite

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          I know, I know. It’s just the thing you have to say, you know what I mean?

      • Big Stein

        why would you want to kill hitler, the volkswagen as aren’t that bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      http://lulzimg.com/i8/a3d843ef.png

      (throws up all over self)

    • The Ancient Mariner

      The Steelers and Seabags one are kinda cool, I like the steel helment.

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      Jets and Saints aren’t that horrendous. I would consider getting a Jets one because I lack jerseys at the moment.

    • http://www.facebook.com/cecala Joseph Cecala

      I actually really like the falcon one
      http://lulzimg.com/i8/96afff74.png

  • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

    88-91? He has no chance of getting hitters out, ever! Trading someone who was clogging up the 40 man for a young pitcher with upside? Ha! Way to go Cash-douche!

    Some “ninja” indeed!

    /Rob’d

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

      88-91? He has no chance of getting hitters out, ever!

      /SBGL’d

  • UWS

    They’re 5-11-2 with the third worst record in the NHL.

    Sob.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Look on the bright side: Most of America has no idea that the Devils are bad.

      You could walk up to them and talk about how much you enjoyed watching the Devils win the past four Stanley Cups back-to-back-to-back-to-back and they’d believe you were being sincere.

      • UWS

        :(

    • Kevin G.

      Wait, I thought the Devils were good? What the hell happened? (Sorry, I don’t follow hockey.)

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        See what I mean?

        • Kevin G.

          Heh, I was actually considering trying to get into hocky this year but, eh….

  • The Ancient Mariner

    The Brewers want to keep Prince Fielder…why? They’re not going to compete next year and he’s a free agent in 2012, at least now they can get like Jonathan Sanchez and Brandon Belt for him instead of a first round pick and a comp pick in 2012.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      I bet Sabean would turn down a Fielder for Belt/Sanchez deal.

      • The Ancient Mariner

        Really? If they sign Fielder they have no need for Belt, and they want to deal Sanchez…I doubt it. Brandon Belt’s a great guy with a great swing and lots of power so he should be a good option for Milwaukee.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          Brandon Belt’s a great guy with a great swing and lots of power so he should be a good option for Milwaukee.

          All the more reason for the Giants to just keep him and play him themselves. Belt doesn’t have a neon “imminent decline due to a horrible physique” sign flashing over his head.

          I wouldn’t be shocked to see the Giants use Sanchez in a deal to upgrade their offense, but upgrading from Belt to Fielder probably isn’t the upgrade they’re looking for.

          • The Ancient Mariner

            I remember seeing Belt at the CWS, he’s good…probably a Lyle Overbay type, but nothing to prevent you from acquiring Prince Fielder.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

              The thing preventing you from acquiring Prince Fielder is that he’s Prince Fielder.

              • The Ancient Mariner

                So you think he’ll stay in Milwaukee?

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                  Meh, somebody will trade for him eventually. And then probably regret it later when the tail end of his career matches the tail end of his dad’s career.

                  There’s nothing wrong with Prince Fielder now… it’s Prince Fielder 5 years from now when he’s making big bucks that will be a problem.

  • Uke

    I sent Jim Callis a tweet asking how he feels about Scott Allie and his response was, “He’s OK. 88-91 mph sinker, some swing & miss to his slider.” Which for me is fine for a nobody like Miranda, another young arm to watch.

  • Nucchemist

    A 19 yr interesting arm is a lot better than a 27 yr old who blocked.

  • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

    Wow. I’ve never seen someone finish double jeopardy at -$6000 before. That’s SNL bad.

    • YankeesJunkie

      Was it the “special” edition of Jeopardy for charity.

      • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

        It was the first day of the Finals for the College Tournament. That guy had to win two games just to get there.

        • YankeesJunkie

          Lulz.

  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

    Harold Reynolds says he worries for baseball because Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young o_O

    • UWS

      Yeah, that was a O:S moment.

      Apparently he thinks that pitchers are now going to think that wins aren’t important and stop helping their teams win. Or something. I think my brain shut down about 2 sentences in to prevent a meltdown.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Harold Reynolds’ entire life is an O:S moment. Especially when he attempts to hug you.

        • Accent Shallow

          I really hope this isn’t from personal experience.

    • Accent Shallow

      I know pitcher wins aren’t the best way of judging a season, but seeing someone with a 13-12 record win the CYA . . . ehhhhh.

      (I know, I know, Felix got <2 runs of support something like 15 times, and went 2-10 with a 2.84 ERA in those games.)

      • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

        CC had more wins in starts where he gave up 0-2 runs than Felix. Felix pitched eight more games where he gave up 0-2 runs.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          Felix had nine no-decisions in 2010.

          He went at least 6 innings and gave up three or fewer runs in all nine of them. He went at least 7 innings and gave up 2 or fewer runs in seven of those nine no-decisions. He left the game with a lead or with the game tied in eight of those nine no-decisions.

          In Felix’s 12 losses, his team scored a total of 14 runs of support for him. That is not a misprint.

          13-12 is not at all an accurate description how good Felix Hernandez was in 2010. He was not “a .500 pitcher” as Michael Kay repeated over and over.

      • http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

        Sorry but if you know wins aren’t a good way to judge a pitcher, and you know Felix was royally screwed on run support, and it’s a fact that the Cy Young is supposed to go for the pitcher, how can you possibly say “ehhhh”? I’m really just wondering because I’ve seen this “I know wins suck, I know Felix was awesome, I know his record is bad because of things out of his control, but I think someone else should’ve won the Cy” argument a lot, and I really don’t understand.

        • http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

          best pitcher*

        • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

          The real sabermetric argument is for Lee, Liriano, or Weaver, I think. Felix did well there, but he’s not the runaway winner. But people who say this then usually say CC or Price should’ve won, and they shouldn’t have.

        • Accent Shallow

          It’s not that I think someone else should have won, it’s just that the 13-12 record doesn’t inspire me to do backflips. Moreso the 12 losses — if he were, say, 13-8, that would be more palatable.

          Yes, I know that W-L record isn’t particularly meaningful, but as baseball fans, we internalize certain things — that a .300 BA is good, that winning 20 games is good, etc. It’s tough to overcome those internal biases (apparently not as tough as it was for King Felix to overcome the Mariners’ “offense”!)

          It’s just that a pitcher’s job isn’t necessarily to pitch well in the aggregate, but to pitch well in every game — if your shitty offense gives you 2 runs, you only yield 1, or preferably, 0. Unfortunately, pitching to the score doesn’t seem to be an ability — one can groove fastballs in an 8-0 game, but not make a perfect pitch every time when it’s 0-0 in the 2nd inning. So we have to reject that argument, and the result is the award on King Felix’s mantle.

          Also, if you’ll check below, at least one of those games was Brandon League’s fault — he came into a 5-1 game in the 8th, and turned it into a 6-5 loss. If League approaches competence, that’s win #14.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            My retort: Start intentionally externalizing some of the wrong things you’ve internalized.

            You know what Felix’s W/L record was this year? He didn’t have one. Neither did CC.

            Pitchers don’t win or lose games. Teams do. Felix didn’t go 13-12, he went N/A-N/A. CC didn’t go 21-7, he went N/A-N/A.

            The “pitcher win” is a myth. It’s the LochNess monster. It’s the Chupacabra. It doesn’t exist.

            • http://www.blogs.thetenthinningstretch.com the tenth inning stretch

              Wait, what, the Loch Ness Monster isn’t Real?!

  • First Time Poster

    I was just sifting through MLBTR articles today and saw Carlos Marmol’s name. I kind of forgotten about him this season. His numbers are gaudy, to say the least. Take a look:

    http://www.baseball-reference......ign=Linker

    Aside from the BB/9, that has to be one of the better seasons from a reliever in a long, long time.

    • Accent Shallow

      He had a K/9 of 16.0 (!!!!), but a K/BB ratio of . . . 2.65.

      Sweet merciful crap.

      • I Voted for Kodos

        I love how he gave up 4.6 H/9 and still had a WHIP of 1.18.

        That’s some comically bad control from a guy who’s still super effective.

    • vin

      16 k/9! holy guacamole! and 4.6 h/9 to boot.

      • First Time Poster

        MLB 2k11* Stats:

        K/9: 16
        H/9: 4.6
        HR/9: .1(!!!)

        Funny how he has a H/9 of that but a WHIP over 1.

        … oh… wait… he was only 2-3… never mind… he sucks.

        • vin

          What’s interesting is that he had pretty decent control in the minors (when he was a starter). Maybe because all the young hitters were too busy flailing away at his fastball to bother taking a walk.

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      The K/9 is a new all-time record, by a lot. Craig Kimbrel this year had a better one but only threw 20.2 innings (Marmol threw 77.2). After that, you have to lower the minimum IP down to six (!!!!!!!) to find anyone else with a K/9 better than Marmol’s this year.

    • YankeesJunkie

      That is absurd so is the 3.1 fWAR after 77 innings. Just unbelievable.

  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

    Oh, so apparently everyone’s favorite Yankee fan Jack-O said the 2010 Yankees were the most overrated team in the history of baseball. After I was done LOL’ing, I started to wonder, what really was the most overrated team in baseball history? It’s not the 2004 Red Sox – they were actually good. Maybe the 1995 Mariners? Not in terms of what they did for Seattle, there’s a chance they saved the game in that city, but they beat the Yankees before they were THE YANKEES* then got pwnt by Cleveland.

    Sorry for my rambling.

    * disclaimer that the Yankees are always THE YANKEES

    • UWS

      The 2001 Mariners?

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Meh, when you’re 116-46 with a Pyth (not that it’s the be-all-end-all) of 109-53 you’re pretty damn good IMO. Just got unlucky in the playoffs.

        • Accent Shallow

          I dunno, their pitching staff was pretty balanced, rather than having one ace up top, so that certainly didn’t help.

          Also, look at the lineup. Not exactly terrifying.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            I know what you’re saying about the pitching staff being balanced. That’s one of those “my shit doesn’t work in the playoffs” situations though. :/

            Re: the lineup not being terrifying, I agree, but they scored 927 runs. That’s a lot, and it was first in the AL, second to only Colorado in all of baseball. Collective team 117 OPS+, which lead the league (their OPS trailed Cleveland and Texas, but not OPS+).

            I dunno. It’s just, they won 116 games, and no one talks about them as an all-time great team. Is it just because they didn’t win the World Series?

            • vin

              It’s just, they won 116 games, and no one talks about them as an all-time great team. Is it just because they didn’t win the World Series?

              Yes.

              They had an unbelievably balanced offense. Ichiro, Boone, and Edgar were spectacular. Olerud, Cameron, McLemore, and Javier were very good.

            • Accent Shallow

              It’s just, they won 116 games, and no one talks about them as an all-time great team.

              Huh, I have the opposite experience — that everyone lauds them, and I’m just not that impressed with them.

              And yes, not winning the Series hurts, but it’s also being beaten pretty convincingly by a good (but not great) Yankees team.

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      2010 Red Sox. There was such a love affair with an 89 win, third place team. The Blue Jays were only four games worse than them.

    • vin

      Interesting. I’m not sure how to go about determining the most overrated teams in history – maybe comparing w/l record to pythag is a starting point. Or teams with most wins that fizzled in the playoffs (01 M’s).

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        If anything Pythag shows the 2010 Yankees were underrated. I think they had a better record there than the 2009 Yankees. (Again, that’s not the be-all-end-all, at all. Now that the season’s over I feel pretty comfortable saying that the 2009 Yankees were better than the 2010 Yankees, and not just because they won the World Series – and the 2010 Yankees were still really good.)

        • vin

          The 2009 Yanks were a little better than this year’s team because:

          1) Jeter
          2) AJ

          Other than those two players, I’d say they were pretty evenly matched. The Yanks got good production from DH. The OF didn’t miss Damon (at all). The bench was fine – especially after the trade deadline. The bullpens were both really good.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Tex and A-Rod were better last year too. But yeah, it’s not like the 2010 Yankees were horrible or really in any way all that overrated, since all year I heard about how gutless and old they were and how they just couldn’t compare to 2009. I mean, even when they were deep in the August/September yuckiness, a good number of their wins were very “gutty.” Think A-Rod’s HR against the Orioles’ closer, that game in Tampa Bay won on Posada’s HR, etc.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      After I was done LOL’ing, I started to wonder, what really was the most overrated team in baseball history?

      The 2000 Yankees?

      (ducks)

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Hah, you can make more of a case for them than the 2010 Yankees. Fun fact: They won fewer games than the 2008 Yankees!

      • vin

        Not sure they were overrated. I treat them a little like the ’06 Cards. Made the playoffs because of a weak division, but got hot at the right time.

        Others may overrate that team, but not me. If anything, they may be overrated because they are lumped into the dyansty – so people assume they were better than they were.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          . If anything, they may be overrated because they are lumped into the dynasty – so people assume they were better than they were.

          That’s basically where I was going.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            If this is the case, I agree. They weren’t even close to the 1998 or 1999 teams. And they still beat the Mets in 5, lolmets

    • mbonzo
      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        They powered their way to a division title behind the fearsome pitching rotation of Helling-Sele-Burkett-Morgan-Loaiza.

        It sends chills down your spine, doesn’t it?

        • mbonzo

          Who?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            Exactly.

        • vin

          It actually sends bile up my esophagus.

      • I Voted for Kodos

        Mike Morgan made 25 starts, pitched 140 innings, had an ERA of 6.24, an ERA+ of 82, and still went 13 – 10.

        Holy shit! He was better than Felix Hernandez this year!

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      Also as a side note, if you want to remind yourself why everyone hates Yankee fans, read the baseball Tweets on twitter.com/jacko2323 and… uh… enjoy?

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        my favorite is:

        August 7, 2009: I actually fooled myself into thinking that A-Rod was going to do something there.

        Please look up what Yankee game took place on August 7, 2009. I’ll wait.

        • Louis

          Yankees should get rid of hitting coach as well is only for the headline: “Yankees Fire Long Eiland”- That cracked me up

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Yeah, that was actually fairly amusing. Blind squirrel, nut, I guess.

            • Louis

              haha i just looked up what game was on 8/7/09

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

    So cool. I’m happy for him.

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/.....22802/daww

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Caption: SHE’S NOT PREGNANT! YES!!!!!!!

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      Can I get a look at Felix’s wife from the front?

    • first time lawng time

      Someone needs a haircut…

    • MikeD

      Caption: You mean my contract has been canceled because of technicality and I’m a free agent? Thank you, Mr. Selig.

  • Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Blog

    For fun, and because I like playing with numbers in Excel, I tried to get pythagorean W/L for the Cy young pitchers. I used the pitchers actual GS, IP, and Runs (included unearened runs since they actually scored). I then got league averages for runs scored and runs allowed (you’d think they would be the same but strangely enough according to BR teams scored 10097 Runs, but pitchers only allowed 10027 runs (9295 ER), thoughts on that?)

    Using the averages, I got the number of runs relievers (meh, I had to use averages of all types of pitchers lol whatevs) would have given up in the innings (assuming 9 inning games) the pitcher didn’t pitch.

    Also, I used the average runs scored to come up with the number of runs the offense scored.

    With all this and using the Pythagorean W/L formula I came up with the following:

    Name,GS,Wper,Wins-Losses

    Felix 34, .662, 23-11
    Price 31, .629, 20-11
    CC 34, .591, 20-14
    Leste 32, .582, 19-13
    Weaver 34, .600 20-14
    Buchholz 28, .638, 18-10
    Lee 28, .591, 17-11
    Cahill 30, .599, 18-12

    After doing this, I thought someone may have already done an actual good job of creating this, but it was fun and the won loss records do seem to be appropriate for the pitcher. Anyone seen anywhere that someone tried to do this?

    • vin

      Nerd! Where’s your binder, nerd! Get a life, nerd!

      Sorry… I’m just mad someone else shares my passion of coming up with random “stats” / projections using Excel.

  • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

    The Indians had some awesome teams back in the 90s. The 95 and 97 teams should have won at least one title.

    • Accent Shallow

      Omar Vizquel blames Joey Table.

      • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

        I am learning spanish and just learned table today. That was how I figured I could remember it.

  • Accent Shallow

    In more Felix-related news, every time I see Brandon League pitch, I can’t believe he’s not a top-level setup man or closer. The man has electric stuff.

    However, he’s consistently had a problem with high leverage situations throughout his career. Unclutch? Noise in the data?

    (How does this apply to King Felix, you ask? See: this game and this game.)

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Squishy Jello Person

    JGS and I went and did Mo and Matt’s challenge at TYU and came up with a team that fits the following parameters:

    Combined payroll not to exceed $85 million
    No more than four players from each division except the 25th man can be from any
    No more than three pre-arbitration eligible player.

    Posey C
    Longoria 3B
    Kinsler 2B
    Tulo SS
    Adrian Gonzalez 1B
    Bautista RF/LF
    Bourn CF
    Hamilton RF/LF
    Young DH

    Rotation

    Felix, Lester, Cain, JJ, Lirano.

    Bullpen

    CJ Wilson (swingman), Soria, Marmol, Thornton, Rhodes, Saito.

    aaaaannnnddd

    either Joaquin Benoit, bringing total payroll to $70 million, or Mariano, which would bring payroll all the way up to $84 million.

    That team, either version, combined in 2010 for over 100 bWAR. The 2001 Mariners were at 66.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      That team, either version, combined in 2010 for over 100 bWAR. The 2001 Mariners were at 66.

      One more Felix non-fun fact: the 2010 Mariners position players (i.e. Felix’s offensive and defensive support) combined to produce a collective 6.1 fWAR, second last. The Yankees position players produced 32.7 fWAR, for comparison’s sake.

      If you cut that into fifths, Felix’s supporting cast gave him a boost of an extra 1.22 wins that he had nothing to do with. CC’s supporting cast gave him an extra 6.54 wins.

      • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

        Wouldn’t that be an extra 1.22 wins for the Mariners in games that Felix pitched? The “win” doesn’t have to go to him.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          Yes. Obviously, this is a very rough and unpolished (and fairly fruitless) exercise.

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      Left out the bench:

      backup catcher–Brian McCann
      IF–Rickie Weeks
      IF–Starlin Castro
      OF–Angel Pagan

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        #embarrassmentofriches

        • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

          Shrug. McCann and Felix are the only two team members that made 5M or more in 2010. We had Swish in there originally, but swapped him out for Bautista.

  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

    an ESPN comment on Felix winning the Cy Young:

    CY FRAUD. If the Yankees could stop being robots and taking pitches all night even when they KNOW the pitcher throws strikes Queen Felix wouldn’t have even been a .500 pitcher. But no, does not compute with their one-dimensional offensive approach and android manager. And let’s talk about the Queen sitting out his last start – cluck, cluck, cluck – because everyone knows a 13-13 pitcher wouldn’t win this award. Statistics are for LOSERS and it’s wins that count.

    • first time lawng time

      If the Yankees could stop being robots and taking pitches all night even when they KNOW the pitcher throws strikes Queen Felix wouldn’t have even been a .500 pitcher.
      So the Yankees and their 3 games against him are responsible for his record? okaaaaay….

      But no, does not compute with their one-dimensional offensive approach and android manager.
      You mean the one-dimensional offense that’s the highest scoring one in the MLB? okaaayyyy…..

      And let’s talk about the Queen sitting out his last start – cluck, cluck, cluck –
      Oh no he skipped his last start of the season ooooOOOOooooh that’s soooo dramatic. What a tragedy!

      because everyone knows a 13-13 pitcher wouldn’t win this award
      Apparently not “everyone”.

      Statistics are for LOSERS and it’s wins that count.

      hahahaha LAWL

    • mbonzo

      Why would you bring that here?

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        You come out with stink like that. Poop! You poop mouth. Get all that poop out of your mouth.

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          Tommie, if I were to give you some money out of my wallet would that make it better?

      • http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

        To laugh at and ridicule.

    • vin

      Was that from John Kruk? Colin Cowherd? Or any of ESPN’s other illuminaries?

      • I Voted for Kodos

        John Kruk isn’t nearly that eloquent.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          He also wouldn’t be able to put down the two footlong pulled pork sandwiches long enough to type that entire paragraph. One sentence is his max.

    • Xstar7

      Besides the last sentence I agree with this statement.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Aaaand that’s not a good thing.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        Good joke, Xstar7. That was funny.

        • Xstar7

          Thanks I really appreciate it.

  • first time lawng time

    Just wanted to say that although I would have liked to CC win (only because he’s on my team) I am very, very happy that Felix won the award.

    BBWA made the right call on this one.

    And I read what tommie wrote above about what Michael and I have this to say:
    Michael is an absolute moron. There are so many things wrong with his argument, but most of you guys covered it so I have nothing to say.

  • http://twitter.com/SteeeeveO Steve O.

    From the ridiculous trades regarding TJU department: http://tinyurl.com/24mx9qu

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      That dude is absolutely right. You can’t trade Kelly, Dubront, Bard, and Ellsbury for Upton, because that’s literally trading away 5 future Hall of Famers for just one decent upside kid. That’s crazy.

      • Xstar7

        So lets hope the Red Sox pull it off.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        /Hughesus Christo in that one thread’d

        Seriously, if the Red Sox got TJU without giving up Buchholz or even Lester, they should fucking jump in joy and take that deal. Similarly with the Yankees and Montero/Hughes.

      • I Voted for Kodos

        I hear they’re already prepared to rename the Hall of Fame the Casey Kelly Museum in honor of his upcoming brilliant career.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder
          • I Voted for Kodos

            I actually deleted the word Memorial from my post which would have made it even closer to your joke.

            I hang my head in shame.

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      Thought that name sounded familiar. I went to college with that guy.

    • Accent Shallow

      I don’t think I’ve ever wanted to see a prospect fail as badly as I want Casey Kelly to fail.

    • Avi

      That package DEFINITELY gets a trade done.

      • Avi

        I’m referring to the Bard/Elsbury/Casey Kelly/Doubront Package.

        • whozat

          Absolutely not. The package starts with Buchholz and Bard, and probably involves one of those other two guys and another piece.

          • Avi

            What are you guys smoking? No one would trade Buchholz straight up for Upton. I don’t get this hysteria.
            I LOVE J Upton but way too many people are totally losing context here.

  • first time lawng time

    I don’t get why people don’t understand how win/loss for a pitcher is a pretty useless statistic.

    I mean I understand it if you’re new to the game and don’t follow that often. But people who have watched for a long time, people who watch and follow an entire season, and professional analysts not understanding that confuses me a little.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Is Pitcher W/L the dumbest statistic still in public use in the four North American sports?

      (thinks)

      Yes. Yes it is.

      • Esteban

        Why is QB rating an acceptable stat, but anything more complicated than Wins, ERA, BA, HR, and RBIs are so hard for people to grasp?

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          I’m not even asking for people to fall in love with advanced, more complex statistics. I just want people to fall OUT of love with Pitcher W/L, because it’s monumentally stupid and irredeemably flawed.

          If you refuse to acknowledge the thought process behind tERA or FIP or linear weights, fine. Just stop using W/L. It’s dumb.

          It’s dumb.

    • Esteban

      Here are two comments from a friend. This is a smart guy that’s going to med school, mind you.

      Cy Young was not known for leading the league in ERA (which he never did), Games Started (Once), or Strikeouts (Twice, but he also led the league in Saves twice). He is known for his Major League Record of 511 Wins, and how he lead the league in that category six times. Felix Hernandez is no Cy Young, although CC is.

      But at the end of the day what matters most in sports? WINS. You don’t give the World Series to Texas for WHIP and K/9… you give it to the Giants for WINS. Pitchers who get WINS are elite. Those who don’t are mediocre. WINS coming to a Yankee Stadium near you… 20 more of them from CC.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        I hope he’s studying something dumb, like podiatry.

        • nsalem

          Podiatry is not dumb.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            I was kidding.

      • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

        I apologize on behalf of med students everywhere. We aren’t all that dumb.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        You could be a smart person and still be really dumb and/or have blind spots when it comes to certain things. But eesh.

        It’s just that they’re called WINS. TEAM wins are really important. PITCHER wins are not. Or only over the course of a career – having 250/300 wins is a sign you had a really good, solid career, but there are other ways of determining that a pitcher had a really good, solid career than just “hey, they had 250 wins,” and to say the least not all 250-win pitchers are created equal.

        • Esteban

          Oh that’s what I told him. Team wins are not pitcher wins. Why is that hard to understand?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            BECAUSE THEY UZE TEH SAME WORD

      • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

        The Cy Young award was only named for Cy Young because he died. He wasn’t the best pitcher of all time, otherwise (for when it was named) it would have been the Walter Johnson award.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          The Roberto Clemente award for humanitarianism isn’t named for Clemente because he was a humanitarian, it was named for him because he was Puerto Rican. Therefore, the award should only be given to Puerto Ricans.

          Q.E.D.

        • MikeD

          That dude, Cy Young, was such a slacker with his 7,000 career innings pitched.

          Fun fact: Cy Young never once won the Felix Hernandez Award. Not even once.

      • http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

        Cy Young is also the all time leader in losses, hence Jeremy Guthrie has a legitimate case.

  • first time lawng time

    So has anyone here ever played MBL2K10? Is it any good? Is it hard?
    I don’t know anyone that plays it so I figured I’d ask you guys.

    • Yankeefan91 Arod fan

      it suckssssss there no damm errors in dat game is so unrealistic i wish i had a ps3 to play a real baseball game so if u have a ps3 play the show better.

    • http://www.twitter.com/ngoral Jake LaMotta’s Left Hook

      MLB 10 The Show blows 2K10 out of the water… when does MLB 11 The Show come out, anyone?

      • FIPster Doofus

        Probably early March. I’m about to buy a ps3 for the sole purpose of MLB 10: The Show.

        • FIPster Doofus

          *of playing.

          I miss the edit button.

    • Xstar7

      No but I’ve played Triple Play 2000 for the original Playstation. It has a picture of Sammy Sosa on the cover. You’d love it.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        i’ll wreck you in cod mw2 and dropshot you so badly

        • Xstar7

          Not before I tactical Nuke your ass and then tenth prestige. (I don’t even own this game.)

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            your a bk randy

            • Esteban

              I’d noscope your n00b ass

              • Kevin G.

                Emm Ell Gee! Emm Ell Gee!

            • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

              Damn. That’s a blast from the past.

            • Xstar7

              Whatever. I don’t even like COD. All I need is Playstation 2 and a copy of Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War. BEST VIDEOGAME EVER.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                Fun Fact: I haven’t played a video game in years.

                • Xstar7

                  Fun Fact: Me neither

              • pat

                Whenever I go to my parents house I always bust out Ace Combat Zero for the PS2. Shit is dooooooope.

            • JobaWockeeZ

              no u nub. get pwned.

    • Mattchu12

      It’s got it’s bugs like any game does, but with the right sliders and rosters, it’s enjoyable.

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Squishy Jello Person

    “Seymour (NYC)

    Why do some of the prospect gurus still select Casey Kelly over Manuel Banuelos?
    Klaw
    (1:33 PM)

    Better fastball command, more athletic, still has some projection. I don’t think there’s a wrong answer between the two.”

    Enjoy.

    • All Star Carl

      Is this guy doing back flips before he delivers a pitch?

      • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Squishy Jello Person

        I was focusing on the second half of that statement.

        • All Star Carl

          Some of us felt that way all along.

      • http://twitter.com/marcos_aguirre Marcos

        No. He does backflips WHILE delivering his pitch, hence the extreme deception he has…

    • Accent Shallow

      Did Kelly actually flash plus stuff this year, or still just “great fastball command, with potential for plus stuff”?

      It’s freaking maddening.

      • JobaWockeeZ

        Fastball wise no.

        • Accent Shallow

          So the secondary stuff is plus, then?

          That’s a relief.

      • pat

        Kelly is still all projection. Still low 90’s with the fastball and his numbers don’t bear out any sort of progression with the secondary stuff. Granted, I haven’t seen him pitch this year, but no scouting reports from his year in AA have mentioned any marked improvement in his repertoire. He’s still very young and does have a lot of projection, but in 2010 he certainly didn’t make any strides towards reaching those projections.

    • Avi

      So according to K-law our 4th best prospect is as good as the Red Sox #1. Just another illustration that our system is MUCH better than theirs.

  • nsalem

    The 2010 Mariners were 44-84 games when Felix did not start (44 games under .500)
    The 1972 Phillies were 30 and 97 when Steve Carlton did not start (67 games under .500)

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

      Philly wasn’t the worst offense in the NL that year. Seattle’s offense was the worst in baseball history in the DH era. Carlton’s team was beyond horrible but it was due to how awful their pitching was besides Carlton, which didn’t really affect Carlton’s win/loss record.

      • nsalem

        Phillies got about 3.75 games for Carlton, while Seattle scored
        3.0 for Felix.

        • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

          That sounds like a pretty significant difference.

          • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

            Add in that on average in 2010 teams scored an extra .50 run per game and that makes the difference even more significant. In a vacuum 0.75 runs per game is a big difference. In the context of the environment it’s even bigger.

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          The Phillies scored 102 runs less than league average. The Mariners scored 208 runs less than league average. Steve Carlton was amazing in 1972 but his team (and his ERA of pitching CG’s) did more to help him win games than the Mariners did for Felix.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      That’s a fun fact that doesn’t mean anything about anything.

      Thanks for sharing.

      • nsalem

        just like many other statistics.

  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

    Dang, on the 2001 AL CYA, via Sports Illustrated:

    2001 American League

    Did Win: Roger Clemens, Yankees: 20-3, 3.51 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 220 1/3 IP, 213 K, 72 BB, 0 CG, 0 SHO

    Should Have Won: Mike Mussina, Yankees: 17-11, 3.15 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 228 2/3 IP, 214 K, 42 BB, 4 CG, 3 SHO

    Mussina didn’t get a single first-place vote and finished fifth overall. The Yankees scored 5.74 runs per game for Clemens, but just 4.21 runs per game for Mussina. In large part thanks to that run support, Clemens won 16 straight games from May 26 to September 19 and boasted a 20-1 record at the end of the streak, by which time he had all but locked up what became his sixth Cy Young award. Clemens gave up five runs in a start three times during that streak but went 2-0 in those games thanks to the Yankees scoring 29 runs in those three contests.

    Poor Moose. I knew he deserved it, but I always forget he barely got any votes at all. IIRC he also led the league in FIP, and it was under 3.

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      DYK: the 2001 Yankees had the three best FIPs on the league.

      Mussina 2.92
      Pettitte 3.02
      Clemens 3.29

      Moose and Pettitte were #2 and #3 in all of baseball behind Scary Randy Johnson at an insane 2.13. Clemens was really good and it wasn’t embarrassing that they chose him, but Moose really should’ve won.

    • Big Stein

      moose was/is overrated.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

        WAT

      • http://www.twitter.com/ngoral Jake LaMotta’s Left Hook

        Take that back! Moose pitched in the first Yankee game I ever saw! (Or Pettitte, the Yankees won 7-4 against the BJs that’s all I remember, but still Moose was awesome!)

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        You can think that (though… how) but he wasn’t in 2001.

        • Big Stein

          if moose wasn’t good looking and if he didn’t have such great relations with the media he just be another guy who could win big games especially in the post season.

          If there ever was a Mr. May, it was moose.

          • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

            Career ERA: 3.68
            ALDS ERA: 3.60
            ALCS ERA: 3.34
            WS ERA: 3.00

            • Big Stein

              “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics” ~ Mark Twain.

              This is why stats are deceiving and not the holy grail. The bottom line is moose couldn’t win big games, including the post season.

              • Esteban

                Your memory is a better judge than what happened on the field, of course.

                • Big Stein

                  whatevrs

                  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                    I think the proper term is “lol whatevs”

              • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                So in 1997 when he outdueled Randy Johnson twice in the ALDS those weren’t big games? Then when held the Indians and their legendary offense to 1 run in 15 innings with 25 k’s but 0 wins, that was him not being able to win?

                • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                  People also forget he outpitched Beckett in the 2003 World Series. Not his fault we didn’t get to Game 7.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                Game 1 of the 1997 ALDS
                Game 4 of the 1997 ALDS
                Game 3 of the 1997 ALCS
                Game 6 of the 1997 ALCS
                Game 3 of the 2001 ALDS
                Game 2 of the 2001 ALCS
                Game 5 of the 2001 World Series
                Game 3 of the 2003 World Series
                Game 1 of the 2005 ALDS

                The bottom line is, the statistical record says that your assertion that Moose couldn’t win big games is flat out false. Moose won plenty of big games. Your anecdotal evidence is disproved by the historical record.

                • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                  Not to mention what he did in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS.

                  • UWS

                    Damn you, beaten by 2 seconds!! *shakes fist*

                • UWS

                  Not to mention his pretty heroic outing in Game 7 of the ’03 ALCS. He didn’t get the W, but without his effort there’s no Aaron Boone.

                • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                  So he’s never won a Game 7? Bust. Big Stein might be on to something here.

                  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                    He actually only pitched in one Game 7 in his life. It was his three-inning relief appearance in the Aaron Boone game.

                    He was brilliant.

                    • nsalem

                      Too bad he wasn’t available for Game 7 in 2004.

                    • Big Stein

                      he would have cracked from the pressure and blown that game, as well.

                    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                      Indeed. He was effective in Games 1 (win) and 5 (no-decision).

                      If Mo could have closed out the win he handed to the bullpen in G5, G7 never would have happened and Moose would have won the clincher, which probably gets remembered as a “big game”.

                      Pitcher wins are incredibly, incredibly dumb.

                    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                      he would have cracked from the pressure and blown that game, as well.

                      If Moose is supposedly such a blower of big games, please tell me why he was excellent in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. Heck, he even got out of a Clemens-induced mess – after being promised a clean inning if he was called on out of the bullpen.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Moose is fine-looking, but not anything, like, godly attractive. Pink shirts aren’t falling all over themselves to get his jersey, like Jeter or A-Rod or something. And he got along terribly with the media, he was totally snarky toward them. And the narrative about his career was that he never won the big one and he was a choker, so I’m not really sure what your argument is.

            • Big Stein

              Al is godly? I thought he was have horse.

            • Esteban

              Saying Moose was overrated is Big Stein’s thing. That’s all it is.

              • Big Stein

                but it’s true. he stunk.

                • Esteban

                  Whatever bro. That’s your cross to bear.

                  • Big Stein

                    but I’m not Christian.

                • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                  Derp.

            • Big Stein

              “And the narrative about his career was that he never won the big one and he was a choker, so I’m not really sure what your argument is.”
              ————————————

              Ah, so you agree, he couldn’t win the big ones. Case Closed.

              • Esteban

                Narratives promulgated by the mainstream sports writers often have no relation to reality.

                • Big Stein

                  as opposed to fans posting on internet boards.

                  whatevrs.

                  Moose’s kool-aid is too strong.

                  • Esteban

                    Or the record of what happened on the field aka stats.

                    • Big Stein

                      thy shall not worship false gods (ie stats).

                    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                      Derp.

                    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                      Stats aren’t gods. They’re just history, without bias.

                    • Big Stein

                      instead of a cult of personalty, we know have a cult of methodology.

                      statheads are the new moonies, or in this case moosies.

                    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                      Our old cult was a cult of intuition and prejudice.

                      The new cult is way smarter than the old one.

              • pat

                Moose had better numbers in the playoffs than he did during the regular season.

                • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                  And WINZ! aside they’re better than Andy Pettitte’s, too.

      • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

        Boldest (re: idiotic) statement ever.

        • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

          Casey Kelly is the greatest prospect of all time.

    • Xstar7

      I don’t think It was the wins that sealed it for Clemens. It was the losses. 3 losses > 11 losses. But I guess losses are as pointless a stat as wins.

      • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

        And the 20-1 start. He had already won it before he got to 3 losses.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        He went 20-1 to start the season. I mean, I think pitcher wins are dumb but that’s crazy. He pitched very, very well, but that locked it up.

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          He got 6+ runs of support in half of his starts that year.

          He got 9+ runs of support in a quarter of his games.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Eeesh. And the 2001 Yankees averaged just about 5 runs per game overall, for the record (4.99).

        • MikeD

          While I recognize pitcher wins are dumb, I’m still a baseball fan, so when a player is in the process of accomplishing something odd or unique, it will get my attention. The 20-1 record falls into that category. RBIs are also meaningless, yet if someone started challenging Hack Wilson’s career RBI record, I’ll pay attention.

          • MikeD

            single-season RBI record.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Agreed. 20-win seasons are notable. Generally, if you had a 20-win season, you didn’t suck (though there are exceptions, I mean Pettitte had a 21-win season in 2003 where he was solid but far from remarkable). It doesn’t mean I’m going to vote for you… but it’s worth noting.

            • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS
              • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                Darn you and your stats.

                No, just looking over that, it seems like that dude was generally really really good and won, or really really bad and lost. There’s one game he won that was like 5 IP/5 ER but he also lost an 8 IP 1 ER game, so.

                Like I said, I’ll note it. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna vote for you.

            • MikeD

              One day, some pitcher is going to win 20 games and not lose a game. Clemens came the closest. Elroy Face was 18-1, but he pitched out of the pen. I wonder what’s the highest winning percentage by a starter, with say at least 15 wins?

              Hmmm…that gets me to wondering on the other side. What pitcher had the worst-ever 20-win season, post 1920? Not by losses, but just be being plain crap but still somehow winning 20?

              • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                Sutcliffe’s 16-1?

                • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                  Sutcliffe was already 4-5 when he was traded. The 16-1 pushed him to 20-6 for the whole year.

              • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                Johnny Allen, 1937. He went 15-1.

                Second place is Greg Maddux’s 19-2 strike-shortened 1995 campaign, followed by Randy Johnson’s 18-2 1995.

                Guidry’s 1978 (25-3) is next.

                • MikeD

                  Thanks. I knew there were a couple of recent seasons (meaning from the 1990s forward) where pitchers had very high winning percentages with a lot of wins. Greg Maddux was the season I had in mind.

                • Sweet Dick Willie

                  Elroy Face, 1959, 18-1

                  • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                    Elroy Face was 18-1, but he pitched out of the pen. I wonder what’s the highest winning percentage by a starter, with say at least 15 wins?

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

      Go look at Bob Welch’s 27 win season. Not only should he have not won it, but teammate Dave Stewart was a much, much better pitcher that year.

      Ironically Stewart did finish ahead of Welch in the MVP voting by 2 points.

      • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

        And Clemens, who was historically great that year, got snubbed.

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          Yeah, Clemens was so damn good for so long that his snubs were offset by wins he didn’t deserve.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Heh, I was talking with JGS about this the other day. Didn’t deserve it in 2001 or 2004 (though it’s not like he embarrassed himself or anything). Totally deserved it in 1990 and 2005, neither of which he won. Those are just the ones that came to mind.

            • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

              He might be the only pitcher in history that it applies to. RJ should have won more (the aforementioned 2004) but never won one he likely didn’t deserve.

  • yankees1717

    what made the least sense about tommy boy/rob’s argument today, was that he was arguing that the allen/miranda trade was bad because melancon/berkman was bad. sure, even if you don’t like the melancon/berkman trade (which i do), you still can’t use that as evidence that a completely seperate trade isn’t a good one.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      FACT: Rob/tommyboy wasn’t good at making sense.

  • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

    On us signing Rafael DePaula: This is us telling the Mariners to suck it from stealing Felix from us. Let’s hope DePaula is half as good as Felix.

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

      So you want 6.5 wins from DePaula? Pretty low standards.

      /Topic of the day’d

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        DePaula + Gardner, Nova, Laird for The Justin Upton.

        BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, THAT JUST HAPPENED.

    • pat

      Haha we sure showed them. They’re stuck with Felix. LOSERS

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        He’s just a .500 pitcher. Bust.

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          He has no idea how to pitch under pressure.

          • Louis

            they should put a citation on his hall of fame plaque for not pitching under enough pressure.

            • nsalem

              *

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                They should put a Scarlet P on his chest.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            He was 0-6 in May when the games counted.

            (Fun Fact: he was actually 0-3 with three no-decisions. In those no decisions PLUS one of the losses, he pitched 28 innings and gave up 7 earned runs, a 2.25 ERA.)

            • Louis

              but he didnt win. so he sucks.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                DAMN I CAN’T BEAT THAT LOGICZ

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Squishy Jello Person

    I don’t know what the lightning and flyers are doing, but they’re not playing hockey

    • Esteban

      What is playing hockey?

      • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Squishy Jello Person

        es cuando se golpe el puck al goal, en el helado.

        (I have utterly no idea if that made any sense whatsoever)

        • Esteban

          Haha, you got the point across.

    • Esteban

      Wait Rebecca when did you become Squishy Jelly Person?

      • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Squishy Jello Person

        Few days ago. I’ll change back at some point.

  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

    In Moose’s 21 career postseason starts his team scored 3 runs or fewer 14 times.

    • Esteban

      I’ll get this out of the way and say that Mussina stinks so Big Stein doesn’t have to.

      Who’s down to O:S Big Stein when he talks about Moose?

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        stats are useless and worthless and false idols

        Unless they are stats that say Moose sucks. Then they’re fine.

        • Louis

          I bet coaxing Moose out of retirement is plan B after Cliff Lee. See they have an ace up their sleeve.

        • Big Stein

          if moose was never a yankee, but instead was a red sox, you would be laughing at every RSN moose groupies (the way gammons is a groupie of Jim Rice).

          I attended my first yankee game in 1973. I’ve been to YS1, YS2, and YS3, so I’m someone who is inclined to view yankees favorably. that said, moose is overrated.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            I know you’re just a troll but please explain how Moose is overrated other than that “he couldn’t win the big game” (which has been proven wrong over and over). Because that’s the only evidence you’ve used so far.

            • Big Stein

              how can I be a troll, I’ve been here for months with no issues, other than moose is overrated.

              I mean as a stathead, that alone should be dispositive. Of course you’re welcome to say my length of time on this board is too small of a sample size.

              • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

                You’re not a troll. You’re in the minority when it comes to your opinions about Moose, but not a troll. Nothing wrong with disagreeing.

                • Jenny

                  Does Mussina go into the hall of fame as an Oriole or Yankee?

                  And will it bother you if he goes into the Hall as an O?

          • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

            if moose was never a yankee, but instead was a red sox, you would be laughing at every RSN moose groupies (the way gammons is a groupie of Jim Rice).

            I absolutely hate and despise Curt Schilling, more than anyone else in baseball. There is no one who I want outed as a steroid user more than him, and if it happens (I don’t think it will) I will rejoice.

            Curt Schilling should be in the Hall of Fame.

    • Avi

      Too bad he couldn’t win a world series.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        Too bad he HIS TEAM couldn’t win a world series.

        Fixed.

        • Avi

          Well he was a member of those teams
          He also couldn’t finish off a no hitter or perfect game, coming awfully close in three separate occasions.

          • Esteban

            therefore he’s terrible. Couldn’t finish his business.

          • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

            Hideo Nomo has two no-hitters.

            Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux have zero.

            Moose’s near perfectos were better pitched games than most no-hitters that have ever been thrown.

            • Avi

              Wasn’t saying it as a knock on Moose. More fun fact

              • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                Then say “fun fact”

                • Avi

                  Wasn’t in debate mode. Just read that whole back and forth on Moose.
                  I don’t think he’s overrated. I don’t think he’s a HOFer though.
                  He was very good, not great.

                  • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

                    Do you think Tom Glavine is an HOFer? ‘Cause Mike Mussina is better than him in every way imaginable.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                      305 is more than 270. Ergo, Glavine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mussina

                    • Avi

                      You make a good point now looking at their career stats (glavine walked almost TWICE as many batters as Moose). Glavine will get in cuz he hit the magic 300 number with wins.
                      Just following baseball closely since Moose came up, He never felt like an elite pitcher. I feel the HOF should be for the elite ONLY and not watered down. You’re point that glavine and Mussina are at least very close is def valid. I also think not winning a Cy young award hurts moose.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                      Mussina was elite. It’s not his fault that he played with Clemens and Pedro. Curt Schilling never won a Cy either. That he wasn’t as good as Randy Johnson shouldn’t be a knock on him.

            • Big Stein

              I’m glad you brought this up.

              Perfect games are overrated.

              to this end, numerous statsheads said Lincecum’s 2-hitter was better than Halladay’s perfect game.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            Just when I think you’ve turned the corner into intelligent thought, Avi, you disappoint me.

            • Avi

              There you are Tommie. You piece of #&?%!!
              You couldn’t think your way out of a paper bag!
              There, that feels better. I’m back.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Noooo he gave up a soft single to Carl Everett he is SO BAD.

            • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

              I fucking hate Carl Everett for that one hit.

          • Accent Shallow

            Freakin’ Carl Everett

            • Avi

              Thought he should have gone with the knuckle curve down in the dirt on that pitch. It was an 0-2!!
              And of course, it’s not a second guess.

  • yankees1717

    sox fans on mlbtr are saying that ellsbury/bard is WAY TOO MUCH for a player who could easily be a bust!!

    i know i would trade gardner and whatever non-mo reliever they want for upton.

    • Louis

      id say Montero, Gardner, Chamberlain, Laird and ehhhhh Nunez I guess? and say take it or leave it. Ok maybe not the take it or leave it part. Thing is, hes 23… very tantalizing.

    • mbonzo

      Uhm Gardner, Montero, Banuelos? Probably not enough but its reasonable. Those Sox fans are ridiculous, maybe ellsbury, bard, kelly.

      • Louis

        Dbacks arent looking for reasonable… they want every guy under the age of 26 on our team for TJU

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      I love how, to Sox fans, Ellsbury was God, just better looking, when he first came up, then the second he started having squabbles with Boston’s management he was omgsooverrated, and now that he’s possibly going to get traded for Upton he’s back to being God. An Ellsbury/Bard for Upton trade would be Boston committing highway robbery of Arizona.

      • Louis

        more like Boston robbing the national bank of Arizona D’backs

        • Louis

          If they added Casey Kelly it would be highway robbery

    • FIPster Doofus

      Most of the people who comment at MLBTR are idiots.

      • yankees1717

        yeah, remind me not to read mlbtr comments.

    • pat

      On another sox blog they were chattering about how a package of Iglesias and Kelly is too much for Greinke.

      Ridonk.

  • Esteban

    Kev (NYC)

    Is Montero is an A+ bat, how high do you rate Romine’s fielding ability?
    Klaw
    (1:19 PM)

    Romine can’t catch – as in, he struggles very badly to receive the ball. Plus arm, but I’m not sure how you get from where he is now to acceptable major-league receiver.

    • http://www.twitter.com/ngoral Jake LaMotta’s Left Hook

      Nothing we didn’t already know, he was pretty bad in the AZL

    • Avi

      Not good. Although I haven’t seen that anywhere else.
      Why didn’t he answer the Montero question?

      • Louis

        it wasnt a question it was a typo… as in “if Monteros bat is A+…”

        • MikeD

          And even if it was a question, he might not have answered it because he has been quite clear that he rates Montero as one of the best, if not the best, hitter in the minors.

  • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno
    • Big Stein

      moose will get in. the media loves him.

      sadly I don’t think Petitte will get because of the anti-yankee bias and because his personal relationship with the writers, while fine, wasn’t great enough to overcome the house bias.

      it’s sad because Andy is a much better pitcher than moose, and when it came to big games, there wasn’t anyone better.

      • UWS

        What are you talking about? Moose had a personal relationship with writers? They fucking hated him because of his snark!

        O:S

        • Big Stein

          they could care less about his ‘tood. They love access. And moose always gave them great access and writers felt they could identify with moose because (like themselves) he’s a well read individual.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        I’m not responding to this because that’ll make me say mean things about Andy and that makes Bexy very, very sad.

        • Big Stein

          oh for goodness sake, not you. you don’t mean to imply that moose was better than Andy?

          now, you’re insulting me.

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        moose will get in. the media loves him.

        Not sure if serious. I’m pretty sure the media didn’t love him because he wasn’t exactly the most jovial person in the world.

        it’s sad because Andy is a much better pitcher than moose, and when it came to big games, there wasn’t anyone better.

        Well this just isn’t true.

      • pat

        This is clearly a troll, why is anybody responding?

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          Too tempting, I guess.

        • Big Stein

          yeah, someone who wants Andy in the HOF is a troll.

          • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

            Not necessarily. If you are a consistent Big Hall guy, I can see the argument that Andy belongs there, and there is no problem with thinking that.

            There is a problem in thinking Andy should be in the Hall and not Mussina. Mussina was better than Andy. That isn’t really up for debate.

            This is exactly the same as Morris vs. Blyleven. If you want Bly in the Hall? Great. If you want Morris in the Hall? I can disagree, but if you are consistent with it, great. Bly and not Morris? I agree. Morris and not Bly? No. You can’t do that.

            • Big Stein

              That isn’t really up for debate.

              I dissent.

              Let me put it to you this way, viewing each individual at their career peaks, who would you want to pitch a game 7 on the road, Andy or mussina?

              • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                Mussina. Because he was a better pitcher.

                • Big Stein

                  then I can’t help you.

                  you can’t be deprogrammed.

                  • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                    Your deprogramming is the last thing I want.

                    Fun fact: Andy Pettitte has twice pitched on the road in Game 7s (technically Game 5s, but it was the Division Series, so it’s still a winner-advances-loser-goes-home-must-win atmosphere)

                    He gave up 9 runs in 10.1 innings

                    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                      He was spotted a 6-run lead in the top of the first of Game 5 of the 2000 ALDS, then was so bad he had to get pulled after just 3.2 innings.

                  • UWS

                    Look, we all love Andy because he’s homegrown, he’s a warrior, etc etc ad nauseum. But you can’t honestly think that he, at his peak, was a better pitcher than Mussina at his peak. Andy’s had his share of gems, but he’s also thrown his share of clunkers.

                    To whit:

                    http://www.baseball-reference......1030.shtml

          • pat

            No, someone who repeatedly parrots the same inane opinion without cxiting any facts and eschewing those who disagree with said opinion is a troll. You done went and been trollin all up in this thread.

            • Big Stein

              sicks and stones.

              mine’s bigger.

              • pat

                The prosecution rests.

                • Big Stein

                  if the argument doesn’t fit, then you must acquit.

                  Jury reads verdict: “Moose is overrated and statheads are ironically emotonal.”

                  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                    ironically emotonal

                    I am going to make this into a meme if it kills me

                    • UWS

                      Ironically emotonal seems to be something that terriosts would be fond of doing.

                  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                    Yet you are the one using emotional arguments to back yourself up (probably because no facts support your case).

  • Reggie C.

    I’m listening to the RAB Radio show podcast from today and MIke Axisa just said Rafael DePaula could start in Low-A Charleston.

    Since DePaula turns 20 in April, i could see the organization put DePaula in the Charleston ‘pen and work on the kid’s command and secondary stuff in side sessions while getting DePaula some real competition.

  • All Star Carl

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkQxKuFIA-k

    Scotty Brosius.

    Young Cashmoney fired up.

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FsS2qHEgYs

      Mmmmmmm the first 1:15, so young and shy and so much twang and mmmm

      • All Star Carl

        Damn I guess that HGH went right to his nose because his nose is 5 times bigger now.

    • http://www.twitter.com/ngoral Jake LaMotta’s Left Hook

      Meh, Pedroia still balded faster.

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      Cash looks like an NBA head coach in that clip.

    • http://www.twitter.com/ngoral Jake LaMotta’s Left Hook

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSn18ylGyEs

      Jeter and ARod when they were wee little lads (exaggeration on ‘lads’)

      SI for Kids was the shit back in the day.

      • MikeD

        Wow. Jeter looks a few years younger, but basically same. A-Rod, though, looks very different. He actually looks smaller than Jeter in those pictures. Hmmmm….

        • All Star Carl

          Look at the size of A-Rods hands. Huge.

  • pat

    Don’t know who else is stuck with basic cable, but Pix 11 has absolutely butchered their evening newscast. They’re trying to be cutting edge but it just comes off as incredibly tacky and the production quality is simply horrendous. Very poorly played Mauer.

    • MikeD

      I accidentally caught Pix a month back and couldn’t believe they were still calling it a newscast. Seemed to be a combination of TMZ and game show, with B-level talent. To say it was horrible is an insult to the word horrible.

  • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

    More Moose facts:

    There are 34 pitchers who have thrown 1000+ innings in pinstripes.

    Moose’s 1278 strikeouts are sixth on that list, and he has about 800 fewer innings than anyone ahead of him. He is 12th in wins, but again is 200 innings shy of anyone ahead of him, and most of them are way more than even that.

    His 115 ERA+ is tied for 13th, just four points behind Ron Guidry, and one of the guys ahead is Mo (and his career 204 mark).

    His 318 walks are the 8th fewest, and he is nearly 300 innings ahead of anyone behind him.

    • Moshe Mandel

      And Moose’s time as a Yankee doesn’t compare to his time as an Oriole. So he has a career as a ace in Baltimore, then comes to a legendary franchise and puts up numbers that places him on the team’s all-time rankings in some important categories. Dude is a Hall of Famer.

  • Gonzo

    I know it’s a long shot, but anyone else praying that Javy and a team (Marlins) agree to a deal before the 23rd?

    That would be HUGE. Getting a draft pick out of that guy would be a magic trick.

    • UWS

      If that happens, Marlins should be immediately disbanded.

      • pat

        Well it doesn;t really adversely effect them at all. Besides the whole “creating a pick for your competition” argument that I don’t really buy.

      • Gonzo

        Javy is a Type B. No skin off their back other than being pushed back one slot in the 2nd round.

        • UWS

          If they sign him before the arbitration deadline, he is counted as a type A.

          • Gonzo

            Nope. He is a Type B and will always be a Type B for this offseason.

            • UWS

              Are you sure? I recall having this discussion a couple of weeks back and what I said above seemed to be the consensus. But I may be misremembering, I guess /Clemens’d

              Anyone else? Bueller?

              • Gonzo

                I am 99.99% certain, but anyone else care to chime in?

                • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                  You’re right. If he signs before the deadline, we get a sandwich pick because of his Type B status as if we had offered him arbitration and he declined.

                  If they wait until after the deadline, we will not offer him arbitration, they will sign him, and we get nothing.

                  • UWS

                    OK, I guess I was confused. But a sandwich pick wouldn’t be half-bad either.

                    I stand by my original statement, though (that Marlins should be disbanded).

                    • Gonzo

                      The Marlins should be disbanded whether or not they sign Javy? I agree.

    • pat

      That would be as pleasant a surprise as the DePaula signing earlier today.

  • MikeD

    Fun fact: Despite pitching at three different levels, our top pitching prospect, Manny Banuelos, didn’t win a single game in 2010.

    Pitcher wins. Overrated.

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      Fun fact: Despite pitching at three different levels, our top pitching prospect, Manny Banuelos, didn’t win a single game in 2010.

      Pitcher wins. Overrated Worthless.

      FTFY

    • All Star Carl

      Phil Hughes and Andy Pettitte didn’t win a game in the ALCS.

      Pitcher wins. Worthless.

      We still won!

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Pitcher wins are worthless. TEAM wins are not.

        • All Star Carl

          CY Young’s 511 wins are worthless?

          I guess in the era of the 6-7 inning pitcher wins are worthless.

          Koufax went 27-9 with 27 complete games.

          Can’t tell him those wins are worthless.

          • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

            Sure I can.

            Koufax was awesome in 1966 because he pitched 323 innings with a 1.73 ERA, 0.985 WHIP, and 317 strikeouts against just 77 walks and completed 27 games.

            That he happened to either pitch the whole game that his team scored more runs than their opponents or he left the game after 5 innings with a lead that was never relinquished is entirely incidental.

            Koufax had 27 wins because he was great. He was not great because he had 27 wins.

            • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

              Yeah, you said pretty much everything I was going to say.

              Can pitcher wins help tell us who was great? Sure. Can other, better stats help a lot more? Absolutely.

              • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                Can other, better stats help a lot more to the point that there is no point in even looking at wins because wins don’t tell you anything those other, better stats don’t tell you and only add noise that can cloud your judgment?

                Yes

            • All Star Carl

              Don’t care about him being awesome, or great.

              You can’t tell me that those wins are worthless.

              • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

                They are worthless. They don’t tell you shit about how legendary good Koufax was. If you just look at the wins, that tells you nothing. For all you know, he could have had a 5 ERA and amazing run support.

              • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                That the Dodgers won those games wasn’t worthless. That Koufax was credited with the “win” is.

                The Dodgers were 29-12 in Koufax’s 41 starts that year. That is important. Koufax was obviously a large part of that (because he was great).

                Why should he not get credit for 7 innings of 1 run ball in a game the Dodgers won 5-1 while he gets punished for giving up 2 runs in 8.2 innings just two starts later?

                • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                  http://www.baseball-reference......7270.shtml

                  11 IP (!!!!), 16 K, 4 H, 1 R. ND.

                  • All Star Carl

                    Jim Bunning matched him. He doesn’t give love for that?

                    That’s what aces do when they match up.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                      Of course Jim Bunning gets love for that. 11 inning 1-run performances are awesome, irrespective of the “decision”

                    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                      Sure, it’s also silly that Bunning didn’t get a win there. He was also awesome. You were just using the Koufax example.

                      That’s what aces do when they match up.

                      http://www.baseball-reference......0270.shtml

          • Gonzo

            I think the full backlash against wins has been waiting for this. I agree that wins aren’t worthless. However, there are now other stats that tell a more complete story without intertwining one’s accomplishments (pitching) with another’s (team’s hitting).

            For example, Koufax went 323ip with a FIP of 2.07 and an ERA of 1.73. That’s holy sh*t territory.

            The whole wins are useless rant is a little silly, and I am growing a distaste for it, to be honest. I think what they mean is that they are outdated statistic. I think every statistic tells us something (even wins), but we should always be on the lookout for better (more accurate/descriptive) statistics.

            • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

              This, pretty much. Though I’m not getting tired of the “wins are useless” rant because, well, they are.

              • Gonzo

                Are they useless in certain arguments? Absolutely.
                To say they are useless is to say they tell us absolutely nothing, which IIRC, even KLaw will tell you is untrue.

                For example, if wins are useless, then wins must be statistically independent of a picther’s ability. They are not.

                Wins are a just out of date. Wins are like mimeograph machines, with hard, and extra, work you can get a presentation together, but why bother nowadays when you have e-mail and laser printers? They served their purpose, but why bother in today’s age?

        • http://www.retire21.org Mike R. – Retire 21

          Team stats and individual stats are usually inversely important.

          Pitcher wins = least important
          Team wins = most important
          Hitter Runs Scored = unimportant
          Team runs scored = VERY important.

  • Teh Compensation Pick

    Did Thames ever end up signing in Japan?

  • Avi

    The yanks are loosing their #1 setup man (Kerry Wood). I personally don’t think Joba/Robertson/Logan is enough in quality or quantity for a hundred win team. According to reports the Yanks’ FO is working hard on acquiring an 8th inning guy.
    What would you do, who would you get?

    • mbonzo

      Cliff Lee. If we use the money we have to sign him I am fine with the bullpen we have.

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      What reports?

      I think that a Mo-Robertson-Joba-Logan-Second LOOGY-Bargain Bin vet is a fine pen. They’ll likely have less innings to work assuming we have Lee and Hughes soak up innings at a quality rate.

      If I had to pick, I’d go with JJ Putz. Had a great year for the White So and is still a hard thrower with excellent control.

  • All Star Carl

    So Cliff Lee and and Tim Lincecum didn’t pitch well?

    Cliff gave up more runs and got the loss. Tim got the win.

    That’s worthless how?

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

      So what if Lincecum went 9 shutout innings, Brian Wilson pitched a scoreless top of the 10th and Lee went 9 2/3 innings and gave up one run and took the loss in the bottom of the 10th. Wilson gets the win, Lee gets the loss, Lincecum gets nothing.

      Would that loss mean that Lee didn’t pitch well. Would a no decision mean Lincecum didn’t pitch well? Would Wilson getting the win mean he pitched better than both of them?

      Pitches wins do not tell us how well a pitcher pitched.

      • All Star Carl

        Watching the game and looking at the Box score will tell you they both pitched well.

        Tim left the game early, and didn’t factor in the decision.

        Lee pitched great, but didn’t pitch well enough to win as he got walked off I assume?

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      In Game 1 of the WS, Tim gave up 4 R/ER in 5.2 IP. If I did my math right, that’s a 6.92 ERA. That’s not “well”

      • All Star Carl

        What are you talking about? I said they both didn’t pitch well.

        • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

          You said So Cliff Lee and and Tim Lincecum didn’t pitch well? The way you phrased it sounded like you were asking whether they didn’t pitch well and no, neither of them did. Cliff Lee was deserving of a loss. But Lincecum wasn’t exactly deserving of a win. On the other hand, I’m sure there are times this year alone when Lee pitched really, really well and lost, too.

  • ChrisR

    I love pitcher wins because they are fun to brag about, however that doesn’t tell how good a pitcher is. Someone can pitch 9 IP 2 H 1 ER 12 K and still get a loss, does that mean he is bad because he got the loss? Also someone can pitch 5 IP 10 H 7 ER 2 K and still get a win, does that mean that pitcher is good?

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      Ding ding ding.

    • All Star Carl

      Boxscores don’t read

      Lincecum W

      Lee L

      Will other stats show you how good the pitcher pitched that day?

      Of course they will

      Is a win worthless/useless. No.

  • Bulldozer

    Pitcher wins!!! The hot topic of the night. I agree that they are pointless in all discussions, but to say useless is a bit extreme. Has a “bad” or average pitcher ever recorded 300 wins? There are better statistics to prove a 300 win pitcher was “good,” but to say they are “useless” is a bit harsh. I agree they are useless in CY Young voting though.

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      Average (to hell with it, I say below average) pitcher to win 300: Tom Glavine

      • Hughesus Christo

        Yeah… no.

      • Bulldozer

        Yeah, I am gonna go out on a limb and say the hockey player wasn’t below average.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Tom Glavine has a career 118 ERA+. That includes when he was just sticking around at the end to be meh. You can argue he’s overrated. Below average? That’s just silly.

        But anyway, Glavine has 300 wins and so does Randy Johnson. They are both very, very, very different pitchers. I said it before, you probably don’t get to 250/300 wins, ESPECIALLY today, if you suck. If you get to that many wins, you’ve had a very long and productive career. But there are better ways of judging that than just wins.

        • Bulldozer

          So you just admitted that you can form the basis of a conclusion based on wins???

          Yes, there are better ways to get to go. Are wins crude, anachronistic, and painful sometimes, hells to the yes.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            So you just admitted that you can form the basis of a conclusion based on wins???

            Looking at careers? Sure. There are just so many other better stats that I don’t know why you’d want to use them, but sure.

            As far as determining who was the best pitcher in any one given season, I’ll say it. Yes, I think they’re worthless.

            • All Star Carl

              Nothing wrong with that at all.

              Felix pitched better than CC. He wins Cy Young.

              Still doesn’t make the win worthless.

              • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                Still doesn’t make the win worthless

                To who, the pitcher themselves? Sure. As far as determining who pitched better, as an analytic tool? Not really, IMO.

            • Bulldozer

              Ahh, ok clarification. I agree. I just don’t agree with the blanket statement that they are useless. That insinuates that they tell us absolutely nothing in all circumstances.

              • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                They don’t tell you anything that other, better stats don’t say without the added noise that wins throw in.

                • Bulldozer

                  That’s correct. That still doesn’t make them useless in all discussion. More like obsolete.

                  • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                    Depends on what you are using them for. Over long careers, they can crudely separate the good from the bad. They have never been able to separate the good from the very good though, so most things we talk about wins for (Hall of Fame discussion, Cy Youngs), they actually are, and always have been, useless.

                    • Bulldozer

                      And that’s what I would be using wins for in any discussion. I would use it as a very crude tool.

      • All Star Carl

        Don’t agree with this.

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      Early Wynn was decidedly average for the last seven years of his career (ERA+ of exactly 100 in his final 1329 innings). He doesn’t sniff Cooperstown without that magic number. For perspective, Mariano Rivera has more career bWAR than Wynn.

      Wins at the lengthy career level are decent at separating the good from the bad. At any level, they are terrible at separating the good from the very good from the great. Therefore they are useless as an analytic tool.

      • Bulldozer

        Cooperstown red herring aside, Early Wynn had a career ERA+ of 107. That is by definition above average. He also had a career FIP of 3.64.

        • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

          You can’t take that 3.64 out of context, a 3.64 FIP then is not the same as a 3.64 FIP now. And Cooperstown isn’t a red herring. He knew full well that he wouldn’t make it to the Hall without that 300 so he kept going when he otherwise would have retired. His 300th win was the second to last start he ever made.

          • Hughesus Christo

            How many guys do you know about with 295 wins and no HOF votes? There was also this war thing during Wynn’s career that would have factored into his vote if 300 was that important.

            And again, he was 43 when he got the last win.

            • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

              Tommy John had 288 and never came close, ditto Jim Kaat at 283. Both of those guys were older than Wynn when they recorded their final win. Look how hard a time Bert Blyleven has been having with his 287, and he should have been a slam dunk years ago.

              Bobby Mathews had 297 and didn’t get in, but that can’t really be compared.

            • Bulldozer

              You fell for the red herring!!!

          • Bulldozer

            I discussed 300 wins not HOF cred. That is another discussion. Therefore, you introduced a red herring. Career ERA+ 107, Career ERA 3.54, Career FIP 3.64. Below average?

            • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

              You are technically correct. No “below average” pitcher has ever gotten to 300 wins.

              No below average pitcher has ever gotten to 450 overall decisions either. Longevity = value. Wins come with longevity. Wins do not equal value.

              • Bulldozer

                Isn’t longevity a function of ability (as in good abaility)? I mean teams aren’t going to just keep signing below average pitchers to let them get to 450 decisions (assuming your stattement is correct), right? So couldn’t BOTH 450 decisions and 300 wins tell us a pitcher is above average? Wouldn’t that all be rooted in the pitchers ability, which is what all these statistics are trying to calculate anyway, right?

                It sounds like longevity is just another red herring. I said, no below average pitcher has reached 300 wins. It sounds like you agree, correct?

                • All Star Carl

                  People just hate the win. Don’t know why.

                  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                    People just hate the win. Don’t know why.

                    Because people really use them to judge who’s the best pitcher, each individual year, and say ridiculous things like that Felix in 2010 didn’t “know how to win” and stuff. At least from my POV.

                    • Bulldozer

                      I would say, based on this year’s CY Young vote, most sane “baseball people” don’t.

                    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                      Right. Thank goodness.

                      You can’t argue that they haven’t used them excessively in the past. See: 2005, 2001, etc.

                • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

                  no below average pitcher has reached 300 wins. It sounds like you agree, correct?

                  That’s a pretty objective statement. It is of course true.

                  I’m arguing that it’s not really relevant. Those guys got to 300 because they were great (or in Wynn’s case, merely good for a really long time). They were not great because of the 300 wins. It is theoretically possible (though it hasn’t happened) for a pitcher to get 300 wins while not being a good pitcher. It is not possible for a pitcher to amass a 130 ERA+ or 70 bWAR while being a bad pitcher.

                  • Bulldozer

                    Ok, now this is getting silly. I have no problem with what you just said. You are the one that tried to disprove my statement that no below average pitcher has reached 300 wins. Then you tried to, through red herrings (HOF cred + Longevity), make me state something else entirely.

      • Hughesus Christo

        Another example of what happens when people bend over backwards to “make a point”

        You just shat on Early Wynn for having a 100 ERA+ in his ages 37 through 43 seasons in the late 1950s/early 60s. That’s ridiculous.

  • Hughesus Christo

    Do we need the ridiculous hyperbole? Pitcher wins have historically been overvalued, but they are not “worthless.”

    • Bulldozer

      Logic prevails. Thank you.

  • DH

    Just a quick idea I would like to hear some opinion on…say Cliff Lee decides he doesn’t feel comfortable signing with the Yankees. Now I hate stupid trade proposals more than anyone but after reading some stuff it feels like the Braves may covet a defensive CF’er and Braves fans seem to think Gardner for Jurrjens (and in some cases even Jurrjens + another mid-level prospect) would be fair. How would you guys feel about the no-Lee scenario of trying to sign Crawford (or to a even to a lesser extent trade for Upton if Crawford didn’t work out) and then exchanging Gardner for Jair…only in the case of Cliff Lee not working out.

    Jair – 25 yr old for 2011; 11.6 combined WAR from 07-09 bf injury plagued 2010; arbitration eligible after 2011.

    • DH

      Correction: Jair’s arbitration begins next season.

    • Hughesus Christo

      Not touching Jurrgens. Don’t trust that resume to translate to the american league AT ALL. This ignores the injuries.

      • mbonzo

        He’s got a 2.97 ERA v. AL teams in 70 IP.
        I’ll take it.

  • Jenny

    Does Mussina go into the hall of fame as an Oriole or Yankee?

    And will it bother you if he goes into the Hall as an O ?

    • All Star Carl

      An O

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      Probably an Oriole, and not really.

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      If he goes, it’ll be as an Oriole, and it won’t bother me.

    • mbonzo

      I would say probably a Yankee actually. I was kinda young when the Yankees got him but it seemed that he was a sensitive guy and felt kind of turned off at how O’s fans would treat him when he would return. I don’t think he appreciated the booing, and he definitely left NY in style with everyone loving him. If only he stayed another year I would say he was 90% a Yankee in the HOF because of the World Series, too bad he left too soon.

      • mbonzo

        Meh forgot its now up to the assholes in Cooperstown. Stupid HoF.

        • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

          It is, but I feel like they would honor the player’s wishes. They instituted that rule to prevent teams like the Devil Rays signing future Hall of Famers to play for them and pay them to wear their cap in the Hall. As long as nothing like that is going on, I bet the Hall would listen to the player if he made a suggestion.

          • All Star Carl

            Dawson wanted to go in as a Cub. They put an Expo cap on him.

            • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

              Did he? Well, never mind then

            • Jenny

              but Winfield want to go in as a Padre, even though he spent most of his career in New York, and they said yes.

              • All Star Carl

                That was different. The Steinbrenner Winfield stuff was ugly.

          • mbonzo

            Idk about that, like I said, they’re assholes.

  • mbonzo

    So this is the year 2009 and the Yankees happen to find Justin Upton on the trade market instead of Granderson. Would Montero, Jackson, and Kennedy + a few throw ins make this happen?

    • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

      No.

      Montero was further away, Jackson would never be a good enough piece to land Upton, and Upton would have just come off a ridiculously insane year at age 21.