Report: Noesi up to replace Ayala

Fun With ESPN Player Headshots
The David Purcey Band-Aid

The Yankees will add Hector Noesi to the 25-man roster to replace the injured Luis Ayala, ESPN Deportes’ Enrique Rojas reported this morning. Noesi, 24, had been slated to start for AAA Scranton tomorrow night, but with Ayala out for a week or two, the Yanks had to go with, as our own Mike Axisa said, the best of a few limited options. Andrew Brackman and Steve Garrison both had started last night, and few other viable arms on the 40-man roster right now. Noesi will serve as the club’s de facto 25th man right now, pitching in mop-up or emergency long relief, but the Yanks could see him as a potential rotation option depending upon how Phil Hughes and Freddy Garcia look over the new few outings.

email
Fun With ESPN Player Headshots
The David Purcey Band-Aid
  • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

    Personally I think a lot more of Noesi than I do Nova, I hope he shows enough while he’s up to force the issue.

  • Fair Weather Freddy

    What a waste. Let him continue starting at Scranton instead of wasting a spot here on the big club. Why not give lefty Andy Sisco a shot?

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Meh, he’ll probably only be up for a couple of weeks until one of the Ayala/Feliciano/Sisco/Prior guys are healthy/proven enough to rejoin the club. If Noesi only misses two or three minor league starts but gets some worthwhile experience against big leaguers in a few bullpen appearances, it’s not the worst thing in the world.

      • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

        As long as he doesn’t get Joba’d.

        • Ted Nelson

          Joba is not the first guy to be moved from starter to reliever and he’s not going to be the last… seriously, get over it. If Noesi can’t start then, yes, he will be tried as a reliever. In fact, his odds of being an MLB reliever are probably greater than his odds of being an MLB starter.

          • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

            If Noesi can’t start then, yes, he will be tried as a reliever.

            Fine. I just don’t want him pigeonholed into a role and not get a real shot to be a starter if he has that type of ability.

            • Ted Nelson

              Fair enough, but I don’t think that’s what happened with Joba.

          • AC

            Hey big Ted. They actually killed Joba’s potential by moving him from bullpen to rotation back to bullpen. He’s not the same guy we watched 1st come up throwing 98 with a filthy slider out pitch. They aren’t high on this kid if they gonna pull him from rotation in AAA to sit in the bullpen. Enough said

            • RL

              Not sure if they killed, him, his injury killed him, or his mental make up killed him. While the Yankees’ decision to move him back and forth between reliever/starter/reliever and inning limits and sending mixed signals to him may have contributed to him not achieving the potential we were all led to believe he had/has, I don’t think any of us can legitimately and difinitievely state it was them.

              • Ted Nelson

                Well said

            • Ted Nelson

              Correlation is not causation. Did you miss Joba not being the same pitcher after the Pudge incident? Enough said.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                Did you miss Joba not being the same pitcher after the Pudge incident?

                This is a red herring. Joba after that Pudge incident, even with diminished stuff, was still a quality starting pitching prospect who had the potential to hold his own in an AL East rotation and provide the Yankees with more value/utility than as a middle reliever.

                That was true before the injury, it was true after the injury, it’s true now. The fact that his ceiling/stuff/health/etc. may have diminished doesn’t change the fact that he would be more helpful to this team–both then and now–as a starter attempting to shore up the back end of our rotation with his current small relief role given to any number of other capable (if less stellar) internal options.

                • RL

                  If only the Yankees’ brain-trust saw it that way ….

                • Ted Nelson

                  “The fact that his ceiling/stuff/health/etc. may have diminished doesn’t change the fact that he would be more helpful to this team–both then and now–as a starter attempting to shore up the back end of our rotation with his current small relief role given to any number of other capable (if less stellar) internal options.”

                  This is where I disagree. It’s one thing to say he has the potential to do something, it’s another thing to pretend you can predict the future.

                  The fact that he had a couple of good months and a couple of bad months in 2009 doesn’t mean he would be a capable starter in 2011. It points to the possibility that he could be. Javier Vazquez also had good months in June and July of last season.

                  I also think you are seriously undervaluing relief pitching. I think that’s a general problem, though. Last season his fWAR of 1.4 was close to his fWAR as a starter in 2009. Perhaps the Yankees use their own metrics which value relief work differently and actually feel Joba is more valuable as a reliever.

                  Plus I think you overvalue back-end starters. They’re not that hard to come by. The Yankees have like 10 options right now who may give them about 1.5-2 WAR as starters over a season. The back-end is not their problem. Not having a #2 starter is.

                  You are painting the Yankees as bumbling idiots and Joba as a voiceless, helpless victim just thrown around at their whimsy. You have no idea whether Joba told them that he wanted to try pitching before the game. Whether he complained about his arm late in games. Whether he himself asked to be put in the pen. His attitude and work ethic compared to Phil Hughes’ (who beat him out for that spot last season). You are making a lot of assumptions. They could be right, they could be wrong. I don’t see why you feel the need to act like you know things that you don’t.

                  I’m not trying to pretend to know things that I don’t. I’m not saying that the Yankees are right and Joba is more valuable as a reliever. I’m just saying it’s perfectly possible.

                  • The Big City of Dreams

                    “Perhaps the Yankees use their own metrics which value relief work differently and actually feel Joba is more valuable as a reliever. ”

                    Maybe the do but can any us say that if we named D-rob the 7th inning guy the Yankees would be worse off. D-rob was higher on the pecking order last yr.

                    “You are painting the Yankees as bumbling idiots and Joba as a voiceless, helpless victim just thrown around at their whimsy. You have no idea whether Joba told them that he wanted to try pitching before the game.”

                    No one is painting the picture that the Yankees are bumbling idiots but they don’t handle their pitchers well based on what we have seen with the ones that were brought up over the past couple of yrs. And Yes Joba takes some of the blame for the way things have gone. There are elements of his game that he seriously needs to work on.

                    • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                      “No one is painting the picture that the Yankees are bumbling idiots but they don’t handle their pitchers well based on what we have seen with the ones that were brought up over the past couple of yrs.”

                      Who, though? Who have they so mishandled? Obviously I’m taking Joba out of the conversation, I don’t want to discuss whether they mishandled him or not. Who else?

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “can any us say that if we named D-rob the 7th inning guy the Yankees would be worse off.”

                      Yes. First, D-Rob has not been as good as Joba on his career and he got smashed by lefties last season. Second, if he’s the “7th inning guy” then he’s not your righy specialist and you have someone worse than him in that spot…

                      “No one is painting the picture that the Yankees are bumbling idiots”

                      I believe tommie was and other are, or clearly I would not have said so…

                      “they don’t handle their pitchers well based on what we have seen with the ones that were brought up over the past couple of yrs.”

                      As asked above… based on who? Joba and… and… and… no one. Joba hasn’t dominated, so the Yankees can’t develop pitchers… the second part does not follow the first. It’s possible, but there are way too many factors involved to just write off the Yankees ability to develop young pitchers all together. Perhaps they can’t develop pitchers. One or two examples doesn’t prove a rule though. In fact, IPK is used as an example and that’s a contradiction… they did develop him. Coke too. Developing guys and deciding which guys to keep are totally different skill sets. Right now the Yankees have a ton of young pitching talent. Let’s wait a few years before we decide they didn’t develop it correctly. Getting angry that your team doesn’t have a 100% success rate developing prospects is just irrational.

                • NJYankeeFan

                  Totally agree with tsjc about Joba.

                  The Yankees have made him almost insignificant in his current role. If he returned as a starter and plateaued at the level of a 3rd or 4th starter, he’d be far more valuable to the team than he is in his current role.

                  True his stuff isn’t the same as pre-injury but he was pretty sucessful in 2008 with an average FB velocity of 95.2 and last year, he was back up to 94.6. I understand velocity isn’t everything but I still think he has enough stuff to be an effective starter.

                  I also don’t buy that argument that he doesn’t carry his velocity late into games. As a minor leaguer, his reputation was exactly the opposite. A good trainer and a 40 lbs weight loss would probably go a long way into improving his stamina.

            • http://www.mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK

              There sure are a lot of definitive statements for something that isn’t entirely clear.

        • The Big City of Dreams

          It’s the Yankees so it’s bound to happen. Watch if he succeeds you’ll hear he looks like a reliever lol.

    • Ted Nelson

      A. Sisco is not on the 40-man.

      B. If Noesi is the best option, why go with a lesser option? He very well may pitch meaningful innings. He could even end up starting a game.

      C. It’s also a chance to get a peak at what Noesi can do at the MLB level, and get him a taste of what he needs to work on. It’s probably going to be too small a sample to make definitive judgement, but it could give some hints… or he could just get off to a fast start and be a valuable contributor.

      D. There is no evidence that starting in AAA is better for a young pitcher’s long-term development than relieving in MLB… ask Pedro Martinez, Adam Wainwright, Curt Schilling, David Wells, Kenny Rogers, etc.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

    I bet the team preferred to call up Sisco over Noesi but didn’t want to have to DFA a guy so soon into the season to open the necessary 40-man spot.

    Just my hunch.

  • pat

    Awesome. Now if Phil keep sucking we can put his azz in the pen for a little bit.

    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

      His stuff plays better there, I can’t believe Phil isn’t destined for the pen already.

      /Cashman’d

      • Ted Nelson

        If Hughes doesn’t regain his velocity then, yes, he’ll be lucky to find a home in the pen. Can you really not look at Joba’s performance pre- and post- Pudge duck-and-dive incident and see a difference?

        • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

          Can you really not look at Joba’s performance pre- and post- Pudge duck-and-dive incident and see a difference?

          Of course I can. And that contradicts Cashman’s statement that “his stuff plays better in the pen.” His stuff played ridiculous in the pen before injury and not as well after. Same with his stuff as a starter.

          • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            I think you’ve kind of got to have blinders on to think that what Ted said contradicts Cashman’s statement. Yes, that’s true, if you take Cashman’s statement as a stand-alone statement and don’t consider what he in all likelihood meant by it, but I think that’s a bit unfair. While I don’t agree with it, I think the most reasonable conclusion about what Cashman meant was “at this point in his career, with his diminished stuff, he’s diminished to the point that we no longer think he provides enough value as a starter to stay in the MLB rotation while we do think his stuff plays up a bit in the ‘pen such that he can still be a good MLB reliever.”

            I happen to disagree with the conclusion the Yanks seem to have made (for now), but I think that’s a more reasonable explanation than thinking that they’re stupid enough to think a pitcher belongs in the bullpen just because his velocity is higher in short spurts as a reliever than it would be if he had to pitch more innings as a starter. If they thought every pitcher whose stuff played up in the ‘pen over as a starter should be in the bullpen, they wouldn’t have a starting rotation. It’s unreasonable to think that’s what Cashman meant about Joba.

          • Ted Nelson

            First, I wouldn’t read too much into Cashman’s public statements. It’s poker.

            I don’t think that’s a contradiction, though. Some guys stuff does play better in the pen… because it doesn’t play well enough as a starter. I don’t know if this is the case with Joba, but maybe after the Pudge incident the Yankees think it is. Soriano and especially Mo are guys who could have made back-end starters or better with some luck, but instead have made elite relievers.

            I’m also a believer that when Cashman says “he’s a reliever” he’s talking in the present tense and not the future tense. That if Joba has a sick season in relief and looks something like 2007-8 Joba… maybe he’s in the discussion to start.

            • The Big City of Dreams

              There is no way he starts for this tean again no matter how great he is in the pen. Why would they ever move him if he succeeds. The only way Joba is considered for the rotation is if it’s for another club.

              • Ted Nelson

                Right… because you are Brian Cashman, the Steinbrenners, Joe Girardi, Randy Levine, Larry Rothschild all rolled into one. Nice to meet you.

                That’s 100% a guess on your part.

                • The Big City of Dreams

                  Not a guess just going on what has been said about his role with the team. They aren’t going to roll the dice again and put him in the rotation which would open up a can of worms. Besides Joba is probably the safety net if and when Soriano opts out. If he opts out the Yankees aren’t going to resign him. Joba is a reliever as long as he’s on this team. His days of starting ended the minute they traded for Vasquez.

                  • Ted Nelson

                    No… you are speculating about things you not only don’t know but you also have zero control over.

                    What has been said is “he’s a reliever.” Not “he will be a reliever from not until forever.” Hence, what he will be down the road is a guess on your part. Pure speculation.

                    Had you asked the Jays or Rangers what David Wells, Kenny Rogers, or CJ Wilson were at 24… they’d have said “he’s a reliever.” A few years later, they’d have said “he’s a starter.” It’s not a permanent thing.

                    “If he opts out the Yankees aren’t going to resign him.”

                    Again… this is pure speculation on your part. It’s not a fact. The correct thing to type would have been “I don’t think the Yankees will re-sign him…”

                    • The Big City of Dreams

                      “What has been said is “he’s a reliever.” Not “he will be a reliever from not until forever.” Hence, what he will be down the road is a guess on your part. Pure speculation.”

                      Pure speculation??? How is it pure speculation when the GM and manager has made it clear since November that going forward Joba is a reliever. This isn’t pure speculation just listen to what they have said about him since the season ended. With the B’s down on the farm along with free agents and trades there is no way they even think about him getting a shot again. They wouldn’t even give him a shot with 2 holes at the back but yet I’m suppose to believe they will give him a shot next yr.

                      It was Eppler that came out a yr ago and told everyone that Joba starting in the 2010 or beyond is not going to happen. Hell Cashman made comments in January that they see him solely as a reliever.

                      The kid isn’t starting for this team the debate is over.

                      “It’s not a permanent thing. ”

                      It is when it comes to the Yankees and Joba

                      “Again… this is pure speculation on your part. It’s not a fact. The correct thing to type would have been “I don’t think the Yankees will re-sign him…”

                  • NJYankeeFan

                    I agree with you that Joba’s days as a Yankee starter are probably over.

                    The team has been willing to go with guys like Garcia, Colon, Millwood and Silva while bypassing Joba as a starter so how much more of a hint do you need. They obviously feel he either cannot be an effective starter or will imminently get injured from the increased workload.

                    And it’s not even like Joba is indespensable in the Pen. Even without him, they still would have plenty of quality and depth since DRob could step into the 7th inning role and likely not miss a beat.

                    • The Big City of Dreams

                      I agree there is no way he’s going to start for this club when guys that haven’t started in yrs or are back end starts are getting a chance to do it.

                      “Even without him, they still would have plenty of quality and depth since D-Rob could step into the 7th inning role and likely not miss a beat.”

                      This. X million

  • bonestock94

    Cool

  • JobaWockeeZ

    Well Noesi is gonna get Joba’d.

    • The Big City of Dreams

      it’s the new Yankee way. Bring a starter up and then put him in the pen.

      What’s for some to overreact in 3….2…1

      • The Big City of Dreams

        waits*

  • theyankeewarrior

    This is crazy. I was sitting with Noesi last night for hours taking gun readings of Brackman’s start. He’s a good kid. Great sense of humor. Hope he also flashes some great command.

    • Monteroisdinero

      Nova is the same. Nice guy/very funny. We talked with him last year at Scranton-he was joking with Igawa who is also funny (with less pitching talent).

  • Drew

    I’m okay with this, it gives him some big league experience and Noesi ceiling can’t too high, or at least higher than Nova’s, though that purely speculation on my part.

  • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

    I don’t think anyone likes the idea of him getting yanked from the rotation to ride the bench in the bullpen for a couple weeks, but what can you do? Hopefully he makes an impression and gains some valuable experience.

    • http://www.twitter.com/vscafuto Vinny Scafuto

      I like the idea of replacing Luis Ayala.

      • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

        He actually didn’t do that bad. Not that he pitched particularly meaningful innings, but he didn’t Boone-up either.

        • http://www.twitter.com/vscafuto Vinny Scafuto

          True, but he was on borrowed time anyway. Superior arm in there now.

    • Ted Nelson

      I really don’t mind it at all. If people bothered to look at the extensive history of young starters being used in the pen, I don’t think they would either. Ignorance is bliss, though.

      • fire levine

        Okay I believed the last 6 times you made that point. Give it a break

        • Ted Nelson

          Yet people continually insist that missing a few starts in AAA or working out of the bullpen in MLB for any length of time is bad for a young starter… Once people give that a break, I will give pointing out the obvious historical contradictions to their point a break.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            I think it’s more that people are a bit gunshy about the Yankees habit with both Joba and Hughes of putting them in the bullpen and then refusing to put them back in the starting rotation, even when we had an obvious need for them as starters (even mediocre ones) and a surplus of acceptable relief pitching options.

            Very few people are against the general idea of young starting pitching prospects breaking into the bigs as relievers, so long as they’re thereafter transitioned back into starting. It’s the second half of that that we doubt the Yankees desire to do, and it’s what makes people defensively advocate against our SP prospects moving to the bullpen even for a few weeks.

            It’s shellshock.

            • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              There have been few people as vociferous about their disappointment with the Joba situation than me, but if people feel that way, they’re being ridiculous. We have two examples, Hughes and Joba, and Hughes was transitioned back to the rotation already. If people fear every starter will be thrown into the bullpen just because of what happened with Joba, then they’re being irrational and need to take a more sober look at the situation and recent history.

              • Ted Nelson

                Agreed. Even Joba was transitioned back to the rotation after being a reliever.

              • The Big City of Dreams

                “and Hughes was transitioned back to the rotation already”

                Now he’s cutter happy with his curve and change going to sh*t

            • Ted Nelson

              They did put Joba and Hughes back in the rotation, though. And after being removed from the rotation Joba did nothing last season to prove he should have been in the rotation with that awful start to the season and not a great season overall.

              More than shellshock I think it’s impatience: these guys were in their early 20s… that they weren’t Felix Hernandez level wunderkinds is not the Yankees fault. Plus impatience with innings limits designed to minimize long-term injury risks rather than burn out great young arms like the Cubs or As do. Impatience and ignorance… heck we’re all ignorant as to exactly what they’re thinking, but some people seem to be ignorant on the history of the game and also the actual careers of Joba and Hughes.

              “Very few people are against the general idea of young starting pitching prospects breaking into the bigs as relievers, so long as they’re thereafter transitioned back into starting.”

              I don’t think that’s true. All the time there are comments bemoaning the thought of a Banuelos or Betances or even bloody Noesi getting even one inning of relief work. There are a ton of people who make those kind of comments on this site.

              “It’s the second half of that that we doubt the Yankees desire to do”

              That’s pure ignorance… the Yankees do not want good starting pitchers. Right.
              Joba was put back in the rotation. Hughes was put back in the rotation. The Yankees don’t want to put guys back in the rotation, yet they have with both the guys you site… that makes zero sense.
              I don’t know if you remember that the Yankees actually started the season with Hughes and IPK in the rotation… but that was only because they didn’t want them to start. Makes sense.

              • The Big City of Dreams

                “All the time there are comments bemoaning the thought of a Banuelos or Betances or even bloody Noesi getting even one inning of relief work. There are a ton of people who make those kind of comments on this site.”

                And they’re right to make those comments. Man Ban and Betances should never pitch a single day in relief because the minute they do some clown in the FO will come up with the bright idea that they need order shorten the game or replace Mo.

                • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                  “Man Ban and Betances should never pitch a single day in relief because the minute they do some clown in the FO will come up with the bright idea that they need order shorten the game or replace Mo.”

                  We have 2 recent examples of highly-touted SP prospects spending time in the MLB bullpen. In both of those cases those starters were eventually moved back to the rotation at some point.

                  I’m not promoting the idea that SP prospects should spend time in the ‘pen, I’m really not touching that issue. But to say that the moment a SP prospect sees success in the ‘pen the Yanks won’t put that prospect back into the rotation, and to further imply that we have recent evidence to back up that statement, is wrong.

                  • The Big City of Dreams

                    “But to say that the moment a SP prospect sees success in the ‘pen the Yanks won’t put that prospect back into the rotation, and to further imply that we have recent evidence to back up that statement, is wrong.”

                    They will probably put them back in the rotation but you can’t tell me there won’t be a faction in the FO that feel they should stay on the pen. Ppl never completely agree on anything.

                    • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                      “They will probably put them back in the rotation but you can’t tell me there won’t be a faction in the FO that feel they should stay on the pen.”

                      I never said that.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      So what?

                    • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                      Ted’s response was better than mine… I didn’t say that (that there won’t be someone in the FO who wants to keep the starter in the ‘pen) because I find it to be totally irrelevant. I don’t care if someone thinks that, I care what the Yankees actually do.

                • Ted Nelson

                  You are really a bore… Learn baseball history and then we can talk.

                  • The Big City of Dreams

                    The problem with the Yankees putting starters in the pen had already been discussed. No need to get nasty Ted calm down.

                    • The Big City of Dreams

                      has not had

                    • NJYankeeFan

                      I don’t believe it benefits a starter much by developing him in the pen unless you’re trying to limit his innings.

                      As a reliever, these pitchers always seem to go with their best pitch and neglect their secondary pitches thereby retarding the development of a full repertoire. I think we’ve seen this with Hughes in particular.

                      They also don’t learn how to cope with getting the same batter out 3-4 times in a game which is a valuable skill that also needs to be developed.

                      It’s overly simplistic to say the pen is the best place to develop a young starter.

                      As for the historical practice of developing pitchers this way, bloodletting was often used in the medical field.

      • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

        Using a pitcher in the bullpen before transitioning them to starting is not the same as yanking a young starter from his regular work, using him sporadically out of the pen for a few weeks, then sending him back to the minor league rotation. Which is, presumably, what is going to happen with Noesi. I’m not particularly concerned about it affecting him, and since this is being done out of necessity, so be it.

        I get your point, but it’s not the same as say, Pedro Martinez, who came into 60+ games as a reliever before being made a starter.

        • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          “Using a pitcher in the bullpen before transitioning them to starting is not the same as yanking a young starter from his regular work, using him sporadically out of the pen for a few weeks, then sending him back to the minor league rotation.”

          I agree with this… But this is Hector Noesi we’re talking about here. To the Yankees, Noesi is exactly the kind of minor league starter that we should be ok with them calling up to fill a spot in the ‘pen for a few weeks, no? This isn’t the future of the franchise we’re talking about here.

          • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            Just PS, to clarify, I’m not arguing with you. I totally agree that “I’m not particularly concerned about it affecting him, and since this is being done out of necessity, so be it.”

            Would it be best for Noesi to start at Scranton? Probably, although I don’t think getting a few big league innings out of the pen is necessarily not a good thing for him. But in the end, it’s an issue of necessity, and of Noesi not being so important to the franchise/future that it matters much.

          • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

            Agreed. I’m not trying to make a big deal out of it. I realize this is done out of necessity and that Noesi isn’t a guy we should be overly concerned about protecting. The usage of a young pitcher in this manner just makes me uneasy, is all.

        • Ted Nelson

          It’s not the exact same as Pedro (who was only 21, and I’m sure plenty of Dodgers fans questioned putting him in the pen after only 125 AAA innings), but I’m sure there are examples of guys who were called up to make a few relief appearances in MLB and then sent back to AAA. I’m sure some went on to have MLB success and some did not. (And while Noesi is a nice starting prospect, he’s also not the prize of the system that they’re looking to hand with kiddie gloves… if ultimately he’s a reliever so be it.)
          There are different degrees of the same thing… Some guys spend a year in the pen. Some guys spent years in the pen. Some guys spend time as a swing-man, or transition mid-season into the rotation. Some of them have still gone onto MLB success. I don’t think you can prove these are better or equivalent options to AAA starting, I just don’t think you can prove that they’re worse. Probably a case by case basis that’s hard to judge even in hindsight.

          Suddenly Joba comes along, ducks a Pudge throw, ends up in the pen the last couple of years… and Yankee fans are sure the Yankees blew it with him and will continue to blow it with every pitching prospect they ever have in their system. Maybe they blew it, but maybe his current position has nothing to do with the Yankees treatment of him. If it’s from the throw… sure it was because the Yankees had him pitching that day, but it was a freak thing that could have happened as a High-A player they were taking it excruciatingly slow with as easily as in MLB. If this is a big part in it, then they blew it with Joba about as much as they did with Brien Taylor. There’s also the chance that the Yankees could have slowly brought Joba along in the minors as a starter and still ended up with him in the MLB bullpen not rotation. In that case they effectively wasted years to come to the same eventuality.

          • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

            Joba had success as a starter after the Pudge throw.

            • Ted Nelson

              Not really… He didn’t start another game in 2008. In 2009 he had a 4.78 ERA and 4.84 FIP as a starter in 156 IP (everyone seems to hate Freddy Garcia, but his 2010 numbers were better than Joba’s 2009 numbers…). It was a 1.7 WAR effort that would make him a solid rotation candidate on the current rotation, but it wasn’t really success. He posted a 1.4 WAR last season in relief, despite a poor first half. Depending on how the Yankees value relief work, his 2010 as a reliever may have been more valuable to them than this 2009 as a starter.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                In 2009 he had a 4.78 ERA and 4.84 FIP as a starter in 156 IP… It was a 1.7 WAR effort that would make him a solid rotation candidate on the current rotation, but it wasn’t really success.

                Boversimplified.

                He was on innings limits, they were futzing with his starts with skipped turns and abbreviated outings and that “throw an inning in the bullpen before your start to eliminate your first inning hiccups” bullshit, and, despite all that, he actually pitched fairly well until hitting a wall in August/September and dragging his year-total numbers down the drain.

                The same wall Phil Hughes hit last year, btw, which likely explains his struggles.

    • The Big City of Dreams

      Would it kill the Yankees to develop actual relievers

      • Ted Nelson

        They do. Joba, D-Rob, Melancon, Dunn, Aceves, Coke, Veras, Edwar Ramirez, Tyler Clippard… that one guy… what’s his name again? Oh, yeah, Mo.

        There’s no dividing line between starters and relievers. It’s permeable. A very good proportion of relievers are failed starters. Elite guys like Mo, Soriano, Billy Wagner, John Smoltz, Dennis Eckersley, etc. moved from the rotation to relief at some point in their careers. For Wagner that was the moment he hit MLB, for Eckersley and Smoltz is was years later in their careers.

        So, no team just sits around and develops nothing but pure relief and pure starting prospects, refusing to take those guys off that patch when evidence suggests they should. It’s just not done.

        • The Big City of Dreams

          “They do. Joba, D-Rob, Melancon, Dunn, Aceves, Coke, Veras, Edwar Ramirez, Tyler Clippard… that one guy… what’s his name again? Oh, yeah, Mo.”

          Clippard is doing well…for another team
          Veras was inconsistent
          Dunn like clippard has done well since leaving the Yankees
          Ramirez was awful
          Coke is having success for the Tigers
          D-rob I’ll give you him..he’s good
          Mo no need to explain
          Joba has been inconsistent over the yrs.
          Melancon is having success with the Stros

          Most of the guys on the list aren’t even on the team anymore

          • The Big City of Dreams

            Forgot Aceves who wasn’t brought back due to injury concern even though he had minor league options left.

            • Ted Nelson

              Developing relievers and having them stay healthy their entire careers is not the same thing… The Yankees can and do develop relievers, they cannot ensure their health for the duration of their careers though…

          • Ted Nelson

            So what?

            Developing relievers is not the same as keeping them… those are two separate things. Do you want the Yankees to develop relievers or to keep them all and make no trades ever?

            You conveniently ignored the whole point about most relievers being failed starters… way to go.

            • The Big City of Dreams

              “So what?”

              So it’s ok that a majority of the guys that couldn’t cut it here are excelling somewhere else. Clippard was acquired for Alby who’s in Japan right now.

              “Do you want the Yankees to develop relievers or to keep them all and make no trades ever?”

              I want the Yankees to not wet the bed when one of them fails.

              • Ted Nelson

                “So it’s ok that a majority of the guys that couldn’t cut it here are excelling somewhere else.”

                They are hardly excelling… IPK/Coke/Clippard had solid seasons, but not that great. If you knew going into last season that IPK would be a 2 WAR guy and Javy (coming off a Cy Young candidate season) would be below replacement… that’s awesome for you. Truly. I doubt you did though.

                Look at Tyler Clippards’ AA and AAA numbers and tell me you knew he would be a successful MLB reliever. He got ROCKED in AA and AAA. Chances were against him, he is the exception.

                Yeah, some prospects burn out and re-surface elsewhere. It happens. The Yankees have been on the good and bad end of this. Every team has.

                A couple of deals not working out is too small a sample to judge anything on. It’s like a guy starting the season weak and me saying he’s a bad hitter… not necessarily. Pujols starting weak doesn’t make him bad, but Izturis starting weak is merely a symptom of his awfulness. Hard to say what it is for the Yankees based on a tiny sample.

                “I want the Yankees to not wet the bed when one of them fails.”

                Because they do that, right? Trading a relief prospect (Melancon) for a masher with a .808 OPS at the time of the trade is wetting the bed? Trading for a 3.5 WAR top 10 CF and giving up 3 prospects you know might be good to do it is wetting the bed?

                You are just blindly criticizing everything that goes wrong. They’re being patient and waiting for Hughes and Joba… that gets criticized. They trade marginal guys in solid moves, the guys succeed… and that gets criticized…

                • The Big City of Dreams

                  “They are hardly excelling… IPK/Coke/Clippard had solid seasons, but not that great. If you knew going into last season that IPK would be a 2 WAR guy and Javy (coming off a Cy Young candidate season) would be below replacement… that’s awesome for you. Truly. I doubt you did though.”

                  Didn’t know about Kennedy but did know that Javy the 2nd time around in a place where he struggled before was a risky move

                  “Because they do that, right? Trading a relief prospect (Melancon) for a masher with a .808 OPS at the time of the trade is wetting the bed? Trading for a 3.5 WAR top 10 CF and giving up 3 prospects you know might be good to do it is wetting the bed?”

                  No throwing Melancon into the fire and then shipping him down to scranton is wetting the bed. I don’t feel he had a fair shake here. My problem with Kennedy isn’t the trade because I like Granderson but I felt like he should have been given more of a chance in 08. I know he was terrible but what did the Yankees had to lose the hope of making the playoffs evaporated once they were swept by the Angels in Aug.

                  “You are just blindly criticizing everything that goes wrong. They’re being patient and waiting for Hughes and Joba”

                  Oh yea they were really patient with Joba. One yr in the rotation and then reliever for life. They have been patient with Hughes I can’t argue that.

                  “A couple of deals not working out is too small a sample to judge anything on.”

                  Those deals are over a few yrs.

  • Monteroisdinero

    Noesi not needed at Scranton. We are going to win a championship down there-you see that lineup? Our best outfielder plays at Scranton and our best hitter (outside of Cano) bats 3rd.

    • Rick in Boston

      Yeah…Golson isn’t the best OF in the Yankees organization. I think you need to give up on that.

      • Accent Shallow

        I can see defensively (if you squint).

        But hitting-wise, or total package? No freaking way.

        • Rick in Boston

          He’s useful, but I don’t want Golson near the everyday lineup for the Yankees. There’s nothing in his minor history to say that this hot streak will last more than a few weeks – the guy is already at 20% of his walk total from last year.

          And Montero is going to be good, but Monteroisdinero, there’s no way you can claim (with a straight face) that he is a better hitter right now than A-Rod.

          • Monteroisdinero

            Oh allright. He may be our 3rd best hitter :-). I have seen more than ST games with Montero having seen him at Scranton and Durham. The way the ball comes off his bat is something else.

      • Monteroisdinero

        I meant defensively. I never said he was our best overall OFer. I just haven’t put him in a box of “he can’t hit” based on his performance so far and having just turned 25.

        • Ted Nelson

          “I never said he was our best overall OFer.”

          “Our best outfielder plays at Scranton”

          He’s not in a box of never will hit… but certainly in the box of never has hit. It’s possible for someone to learn how to hit at 25, it’s just unlikely. So, people have him in the box of it’s unlikely he’ll be able to hit.

          • Monteroisdinero

            Not “overall”. Meant OFer in the fielding sense. Sorry for the semantic slipup. Why is it that some players can become good major leaguers at age 25 or even, god forbid, older?
            It can happen.

            Perhaps they’ll bring him up again in September and he’ll help us win a game or two.

            • Rick in Boston

              Golson has some pop and is a very good athlete. But he’s got some glaring holes that make projecting him as a starting OF on a contender a question.

              Golson career high OBP in full-season was 2008 (.333), and he’s walked in less than 6% of his career PA’s. He’s struck out 100+ times in each full-season he’s played in. Plate discipline is a major skill to have, and I’m not sure he’s got the hitting ability to make up for it.

            • Ted Nelson

              It’s not that Golson needs to become a good MLB hitter. He needs to become a good AAA hitter. His OPS’ in AAA at 23 and 24 years old and .642 and .727. If he improves that, then he has to prove he can hit in MLB… and that’s a HUGE step up. It may happen occasionally, but we can’t expect it from every athletic former 1st rounder who OPS’ .700 in AAA at 24.

              He is a good defender, but that means little to me without considering his offense. While his defense may be a marginal improvement over Granderson or Gardner (and it’s marginal because both those guys are good defenders too), his offense is probably a huge downgrade (we’ll see what Gardner’s long-term production is). The Mariners have had a strong defensive OF lately, but they’ve had a pitiful offense and thus been a lousy team. You need to hit the ball to win baseball games. With the Yankees’ OF, I’d much rather have a righty bat like Jones’ with mediocre defense than a 1 inning defensive replacement.

              I like Golson as depth and potential the Yankees picked up for next to nothing. Would be great to see him develop and exceed expectations… I’d say the same about Parraz, Maxwell, and Dickerson, though.

        • http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/ Matt Imbrogno

          Even that is debatable at best.

    • http://twitter.com/Carlosological Carlosologist

      No fucking way is Montero better than A-Rod. That’s just straight up insanity dude. A-Rod is a Hall of Fame talent who’s going to break the all-time HR record barring injury. Montero is a prospect who hasn’t done shit at the MLB level yet.

  • Jorge

    Noesi will be in the bullpen today. Tomorrow, he’ll have a DUI in Nebraska. Friday? Midges. Totally Joba’d.

    • jsbrendog

      fat jobber just sound sbetter than fat noesi though

  • Pastadivingarod

    I called this last night noesi has great stuff to get both righties and lefties out

    • http://www.blogs.thetenthinningstretch.com the tenth inning stretch

      True. I was at his start on Saturday, he was getting weak swings with his offspeed stuff all night from both lefties and righties. Lots of movement and solid velocity. I’m looking forward to seeing him face MLB hitters.

  • Hurling Darvish

    I like this move. Gives Noesi a chance to experience the bigs, gives us a chance to check him out, and eliminates the need for a roster move to fill in for Ayala, who is the 25th man anyway, and hardly worth that kind of sacrifice.

    Like others, I was looking for ways to get Andy Sisco on the roster, but I think the team likes Logan more than we do. He did a good job last year after a slow start. Maybe he’s just a slow starter, like Tex.

  • A-Rod’s Wingman

    There’s a huge difference between Hector Noesi and Joba Chamberlain, when Noesi was moved to the pen he had made 68 minor league starts, whereas when Joba was moved to the pen he had barely pitched 68 minor league innings. While I’m not confident in the organization’s ability to develop young pitching, I hardly think that this is a bad move.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    “Who, though? Who have they so mishandled? Obviously I’m taking Joba out of the conversation, I don’t want to discuss whether they mishandled him or not. Who else?”

    Hughes, Kennedy, I guess you can even say Melancon to some extent. I just believe they don’t handle pitching well.

    • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      How did they mishandle those guys? They mishandled Kennedy by trading him? They mishandled Hughes by putting him in the bullpen (I won’t get into the reasons why they did that, whether we agree with them or not) and then moving him back to the rotation (which has been done with countless other pitchers)? And Melancon? Seriously?

      I’m nervous you were half-kidding and I shouldn’t try to actually respond to this comment. But, if you were serious, even if you could find some flaws with how those guys were handled, I submit that those flaws are just life – just about zero prospects come along on a perfect development path with no hiccups – and it’s simply ridiculous to attribute every minor or perceived failure/hiccup in any of those cases to some sort of systemic failure to develop pitchers.

      Look, you can look at the Joba situation and be upset about it, everyone knows I am… But to look at those other guys as some sort of evidence of a systemic problem is flatly unfair.

      • The Big City of Dreams

        I think Hughes was rushed to the majors when he was first called up. The same goes for Melancon who was brought up and then thrown into the fire because he was projected as a late inning reliever. Everything is not their fault because some of the players have made their own mistakes. Look I’m not saying they are the worse organization in the world when it comes to pitching I just don’t have faith in them handling pitchers until proven other wise.

        Hell you can even look at the pitching FA pick-ups they have made over the yrs. It just seems to me that pitching is not a strong suit in this organization.

        • CS Yankee

          seems to me that pitching is not a strong suit in this organization.
          ……………………………………………
          Perhaps not over a 20 year duration, but look what they have going now…ManBan could have success in MLB today, but they have him and Dellin starting in AA which is a great move. In AAA they have 3-4 solid SP’ers and don’t forget where they draft each year…

          Yankees are typically picking bottom five in the second round due to the fact that they win & aquire free agents. The top 30-40 projected pitchers are off the board by that time.

          • The Big City of Dreams

            True where they draft plays a role because they are picking at the bottom. It’s weird for me because for many yrs I was on the other side of the argument. I was defending the moves being made because I truly believed things were going in the right direction. But I look at the Joba being a reliever, Hughes’ stuff taking a step back, guys like Clippard and Kennedy having success somewhere else and I think what the hell. Obviously not every prospect is going to make it but….

            • Ted Nelson

              “It’s weird for me because for many yrs I was on the other side of the argument.”

              Your argument’s all based on hindsight. The team didn’t have hindsight in making their decisions. If you thought they were solid moves at the time, it’s hard to go back and criticize now. Sure, ultimately if the team is wrong all the time that’s a problem… that a couple of guys they traded away (and not that they gave up on them… they traded them in moves they thought helped the team) are doing ok (and IPK, Clippard, and Coke are not studs… merely solid) and a couple of guys have not set the world on fire consistently by 25 is not a reason to just dismiss the organization when it comes to pitching. A couple of things go slightly differently and you’re on the other side. A couple of prospects work out, or Hughes/Joba turn it around or IPK/Coke/Clippard can’t sustain it… and you’re on the other side…

        • Ted Nelson

          “It just seems to me that pitching is not a strong suit in this organization.”

          You realize how many different guys and skill sets go into all things involving “pitching” in the Yankees organization? You realize that which guys the team is employing changes over the years? To just make a blanket statement that the entire Yankees organization doesn’t handle pitching well is really hard to substantiate. Prospects just don’t work out most of the time. Few guys reach their potential. Guys get hurt. You are pointing out different angles on different guys and just basically randomly criticizing for anything that goes wrong… they did develop IPK and Vicaino and Coke… but they traded them. They didn’t develop Joba. They didn’t develop Hughes, then they did, then they didn’t cause he’s mysteriously lost velocity. They developed Melancon, then they didn’t, then they shouldn’t have traded him… but they also shouldn’t have Joba or Coke or Hughes in the pen because relievers are stupid. Your criticisms are littered with contradictions.

      • http://www.mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK

        This one’s easy. Hughes has had mixed success as a starter after a brief stint as a reliever. Clearly that’s why his off-speed pitches appear to have regressed; ditto for his fastball hitting the top speed of a Corolla (somewhere around 90 mph).

        Kennedy’s development was impeded by various injuries and an aneurysm. Again, the Yankees fault.

        Melancon was the heir to Mo. He is not the heir to Mo, as well see. By moving him from starter to reliever (wait, what? That didn’t happen? Oh, ok), they bloodletted his feel for pitching. That and their wacky system of giving guys multiple innings of work in the minors.

        They’ve also ruined the development of Rafael DePaula because he couldn’t get a visa and the only option they had otherwise was to audition him for The Amazing Race.

        There are only two outcomes for everything. The color gray – it doesn’t exist.

        • The Big City of Dreams

          Thanks for the laugh are there anymore that you have to break the tension in here

  • The Big City of Dreams

    I never said that.

    ————————-

    I apologize

  • The Big City of Dreams

    “Yes. First, D-Rob has not been as good as Joba on his career and he got smashed by lefties last season. Second, if he’s the “7th inning guy” then he’s not your righy specialist and you have someone worse than him in that spot… ”

    We’ll have to agree to disagree. I think D-rob would give the Yankees similar production that Joba does. Has he been as good as Joba over the last couple of seasons.

    “It’s possible, but there are way too many factors involved to just write off the Yankees ability to develop young pitchers all together. Perhaps they can’t develop pitchers. One or two examples doesn’t prove a rule though.”

    I’m going on what I have seen over the past few seasons. When I heard other Yankee fans complain about the lack of young pitching I always felt it was too soon to judge because Cashman’s plan was just getting started but after 5-6 yrs I think it’s more than reasonable to question what he has done.

    “In fact, IPK is used as an example and that’s a contradiction… they did develop him.”

    So the Yankees get a pat on the back for Kennedy??????? He’s no longer on the team any success he has going forward will be attributed to the D backs. The Phillies don’t get kudos for having Gavin Floyd come through their system.

    “Right now the Yankees have a ton of young pitching talent. Let’s wait a few years before we decide they didn’t develop it correctly.”

    I think it’s more than fair to decide right now.

    “Getting angry that your team doesn’t have a 100% success rate developing prospects is just irrational.”

    SMH exaggerating much. Of course they shouldn’t be perfect I don’t expect them to be but their success rate should be better no. The system has improved by leaps and bounds no one can deny that but they are still having a hard time developing starters to become dependable parts of the rotation.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    Your argument’s all based on hindsight. The team didn’t have hindsight in making their decisions. If you thought they were solid moves at the time, it’s hard to go back and criticize now. Sure, ultimately if the team is wrong all the time that’s a problem… that a couple of guys they traded away (and not that they gave up on them… they traded them in moves they thought helped the team) are doing ok (and IPK, Clippard, and Coke are not studs… merely solid) and a couple of guys have not set the world on fire consistently by 25 is not a reason to just dismiss the organization when it comes to pitching. A couple of things go slightly differently and you’re on the other side. A couple of prospects work out, or Hughes/Joba turn it around or IPK/Coke/Clippard can’t sustain it… and you’re on the other side…

    ————————————————

    It’s not hindsight it’s adjusting the opinion I once had after seeing how things have worked out. With new information comes a different point of view. I’m not dismissing the organization I just feel they don’t have a good grasp when it comes to pitching. Hopefully Man Ban and Dellin become apart of the ML team. If they do I’ll be more than happy.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    You realize how many different guys and skill sets go into all things involving “pitching” in the Yankees organization? You realize that which guys the team is employing changes over the years? To just make a blanket statement that the entire Yankees organization doesn’t handle pitching well is really hard to substantiate. Prospects just don’t work out most of the time. Few guys reach their potential. Guys get hurt. You are pointing out different angles on different guys and just basically randomly criticizing for anything that goes wrong… they did develop IPK and Vicaino and Coke… but they traded them. They didn’t develop Joba. They didn’t develop Hughes, then they did, then they didn’t cause he’s mysteriously lost velocity. They developed Melancon, then they didn’t, then they shouldn’t have traded him… but they also shouldn’t have Joba or Coke or Hughes in the pen because relievers are stupid. Your criticisms are littered with contradictions.

    —————————————–

    So forget it they handle all pitching extremely well. They have never made a mistake and it’s just bad luck that some of these guys don’t make it.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    @ NJYankeefan very well written post. I can’t argue with anything you said