Another nail in the Pettitte coffin?

November 18, 2008 by Benjamin Kabak 74 Comments

In the a post summarizing this morning’s ridiculous Yankee developments, MLB Trade Rumors points us to an Andy Pettitte story. Apparently, Pettitte’s agent is still demanding $16 million a year for Pettitte’s services. I’m not too keen on bringing Pettitte back. While he is a valuable lefty, at 36 this year, he showed some major signs of slowing down and couldn’t get batters out during the second half of the year. I could see bringing Pettitte back for $10 million or maybe $12 million, but a $16 million offer just seems like a deal to which the Yanks wouldn’t — and perhaps shouldn’t — agree.

MasterShake

16 Million sounds about right…thats what Burnett would be paid at age 36 if his 5/80 contract is $16 million per year.
- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/01/18/jeter_ap/index.html steve (different one)
  
  this reasoning doesn’t really hold.
  
  all long-term contracts assume some sort of overpayment at the end, but it is the price you pay to acquire the high performance of the first part of the contract.
  
  with Pettitte, you don’t get his age 32, 33, 34, and 35 seasons. all you get is the age 37 season.
  - andrew
    
    said it better than i couldve…
  - MasterShake
    
    hahaha…i keep on forgetting sarcasm doesn’t translate well on the internet :'(
    - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/01/18/jeter_ap/index.html steve (different one)
      
      ha. in that case, my bad.
      
      i am a dumbass.
  - Ed
    
    Teams usually pay more money per year to get a player to agree to a shorter contract.
    - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2000/01/18/jeter_ap/index.html steve (different one)
      
      sure. which is exactly what the Yankees did 2 years ago.
      
      but now that Pettitte sucked for much of last season, they expect him to take less money.
- andrew
  
  yea, but most people agree that giving burnett that contract would be overpaying him. pettitte at 1/12 and burnett at 4/60 is more reasonable… although unfortuantely it may take 4/65 to get burnett. the 5/80 is just too much…
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

16M for Andy is way too much, However, if the alternative is giving 5/80M to Burnett, I’ll give Andy 18M.
- http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
  
  Two things:
  
  1. No how much the Yanks are or are not giving Burnett, $16 million is too much for Pettitte.
  
  2. Giving $16 million for Pettitte would probably raise the price on CC. If Pettitte is worth $16 mil to the Yanks after his 2008 season, how much is CC worth to the Yanks?
  
  Just something to consider.
  - radnom
    
    If CC wants to sign a one year deal, we can start bringing that into the discussion, otherwise it is hard to compare AAV of a 6-7 year deal to that of a one year deal.
    - Chip
      
      Do you think Scott Boras would buy into that (or any other agent for that matter?)
      - radnom
        
        No but it doesn’t matter what ridiculous spin the agent tries to put on it. You are bidding against the other teams.
        
        JT
        
        Or in the case of the Yankees… against themselves.
        
        See arod 10 years at 300mil (after incentives)
      - Count Zero
        
        Actually – yes, I think he would. Since the agent’s commission is calculated on the total worth of the contract. 15% of 3x$15MM > 15% of 1x$20MM.
        
        The entire thing with Andy is that your risk is only for one year — as such, he is going to get more for that one year than he would if it was a three-year guaranteed deal. Andy is assuming more of the risk, and the club is assuming less. This can be traded for an increase in AAV. There is no difference between that and say…Pudge declining arb to end up signing for less AAV than he was likely to get but getting three guaranteed.
        
        All that said, I would pass on anything > $12MM for another year of Andy.
- Yank Crank 20
  
  agreed
ko

The real question is what happened to Pettitte over the second half last year? Rumor has it that he was injured, but will be back to normal next spring. If that’s the case, give him the $16M, he’s an excellent, clutch performer who has a history of coming up big for the Yankees – and 36 is far from ancient. If it wasn’t an injury, then he shouldn’t be asking for the same amount and shouldn’t expect to get it. He was pretty bad over the second half (when he usually shines) and his poor performance really hurt the playoff run.
A.D.

Eh, I mean on a one year contract, its not going to handcuff them on anything… and it’s probably the agent just blowing smoke, to get max value for his client, figure if they start off asking 16, that will only come down
Scott of 3 Kids Tickets

$16m for one year to the Yankees is the equivalent of a couple of pennies to us. Andy deserves a 2nd chance, like Moose got. Don’t let a few million blow it for a guy who knows what it takes to win CHAMPIONSHIPS.

-Scott
- http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
  
  Just to play Devil’s Advocate, the last time Pettitte won a championship was in 2000. I don’t think it ever makes sense to pay for a player once did, let alone what he accomplished nearly a decade ago.
radnom

Irrelevant. No one (Hou) else is going to pay $16 for Pettite, nor $12 for that matter.

Pettite is not going to retire over a matter of $4 dollars.

If he wants to pitch, he will sign. If he doesn’t, he won’t.

This is a non-story.
Frank

Only because he’s already admitted to it once, I wouldn’t be surprised if Andy broke down because he couldn’t rely on something other than his cutter in the second half…if you know what I mean.
Shamus

Screw Andy. Let him go home and sing in the choir at church. This ain’t 2003, its goddam 2008. The guy was WORTHLESS from August on. (killed my fantasy team).

Sign CC. Sign Lowe (3@45) or Sheets (2@24).

Screw AJ. Sign Tex.

Boom, outta here.
- TurnTwo
  
  a-f’n-men.
- Mike Pop
  
  Shamus you wouldnt get Sheets or Lowe on those contracts.. nice try tho
  - andrew
    
    or probably texiera at all…
Bo

12,14,16 does it really matter?

Anyone here paying it?

For a one yr deal I can’t see them squabbling over 2 mill.
- TurnTwo
  
  just because they can afford it doesnt mean they should just give him what he wants.
- Scott of 3 Kids Tickets
  
  That was my point, incase I wasn’t clear. Who cares how many mil? If you want him back, you want him back and if you dn’t you don’t.
  
  Andy deserves a chance to pove himself like Moose had this year and to out on top.
  
  “Screw Andy”? He will go down as one of the toughest Yankee pitchers since Whitey Ford, and over a few mil you say “screw Andy”? Not much of a Yankee fan then, are you? You don’t want him back ’cause he ruined your fantasy league? Are you 12?
  
  -Scott
  - TurnTwo
    
    ok, yeah, didnt see the fantasy baseball thing… dont care about that.
    
    but look… just because he was really awesome 2-3-5-10 years ago doesnt mean you just give him $16 million for 2009 if you dont think he’s deserving of it, or can produce as that type of level pitcher.
    - Mike Pop
      
      I guess its an issue of pride with him huh ? Man I hope it doesnt become like this with Jeter… Imagine that ? I wouldnt wanna give Jeter another 18 a year for 3 years after this contract
    - Shamus
      
      Oh Christ the fantasy thing was a joke.
      
      The fact of the matter is, Andy was a .500 pitcher last year. He wants top tier dollars.
      
      He is not worth $16M a year anymore. Let him try to get that elsewhere.
      - TurnTwo
        
        the joke thing- sometimes you never know.
        
        but yeah, exactly. taking his 2008 performance into consideration, he doesnt deserve $16 million a year.
        
        Joe Fitz
        
        Deserving and getting are not in the same ball park here.
        
        Have you all fallen asleep during FA the past decade?
        
        A playoff proven lefty willing to work on 1 yr deals is a valuable thing on the market.
        
        The guy can write his own ticket to a number of places.
        
        The Mets rather have Andy at 1 yr and 18 mill or 5 yrs and 65 for Ollie P?
        Sox get Lowe for 4 yrs and 60 or Andy for one and 18?
        
        It’s never about deserving. Open your eyes.
Brian

This isn’t a big deal. His agent wants him to not get a paycut, which is to say he’s doing his job. If the offers aren’t out there in that range, then the market has dictated Andy’s value lower. It’s just his agent. They have been brilliant with this one-year deal job for year after year, mainly b/c Andy has been pretty iffy in terms of health/desire, but he has yet eked out a pretty sweet overall deal. It’s been risky, but it has been effective.

If the Yanks offer $13/1, then surely Andy should jump at a $30/2 with someone else. Somebody desperate, no doubt. Either way, his agent can make whatever negotiating ploy they want. It’s not like there aren’t other options.
- Chip
  
  I’m a huge fan of somebody else offering him 2/30. That way, we get the two draft picks!
  - Mike Pop
    
    The picks would end up being busts tho
Mike Pop

The thing thats scary is all stats are misleading
- http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_postseason.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=121250&statType=2 Slugger27
  
  what does this even mean?
  - radnom
    
    It means be afraid.
    
    Be very afraid.
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones
  
  The thing thats scary is all stats are misleading.
  
  73% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
  -Stephen Colbert
Evan

Hasn’t Andy come out and said he believes his poor second half was due to not properly strengthening his arm in the off season because he was flying around dealing with all the steroid allegations. Sure he is getting old but he had a great first half and with a proper off season without crazy distractions wouldn’t it be worth it to see if he can return to the first half form for the whole season. Not for 16 mil of course but the 12-13 range.
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones
  
  “not properly strengthening his arm in the off season” = running out of “Mexican Special Sauce”
Ivan

In other news Dustin Pedroia is the 08 MVP. Ugh.
- Yank Crank 20
  
  Who cares. I’d rather have Pedroia win MVP over watching another Red Sox World Series Championship, or i’d MUCH rather have Pedroia win MVP over that stupid, ugly podunk Youkilis.
  - Mike Pop
    
    I hear they are celebrating by having a lucky charms party at pedroias condo
  - Thomas
    
    Youkilis was much more deserving his OPS+ was about 20 points higher and he plays better defense. Also if you want intagibles, Youkilis was willing to move to third during the season when Lowell went down. Pedroia won because of one hot week, which put him into the discussion.
    - Ed
      
      Youkilis is a 3rd baseman who plays first due to acquiring Lowell. Pedroira always played 2B/SS in his professional career. Putting Youkilis at 3rd is the smarter move.
Mike Pop

ugh pedroia
Matt

As much as I love Andy, I don’t love him 16 million dollars much….um Andy, come down to the 8 – 10 mil range or take a walk.

As far as Pedrioa winning AL MVP, eh, whatever, I’m never really a huuuge fan of postseason awards, it kind of kills time during free agency and during the week before NFL Sundays…
Mike Pop

Mauer should of had it
Andy

One year of Andy = way better deal than five years of Burnett, even if you pay him $20 mil a year. Anytime you can get a veteran pitcher who eats innings and had an ERA under 5 in the AL East the year before on a one year deal, much less one who has already proven he can succeed in NY, you should be doing backflips. With all the injuries and sudden ineffectiveness of pitchers, it is a NO BRAINER.

Remember Jeff Weaver? Javier Vasquez? Randy Johnson? Jaret Wright? Dare I even say Carl Pavano?? People forget, but Carl Pavano was the BEST, hands down, free agent pitcher on the market the year he signed his deal, THE BEST, by any objective standard. Weaver was an up and coming young stud with Detriot. Vasquez another up and coming stud. These guys were no bums when they came to NY, and all of them, coming into NY, were arguably better deals than Burnett or even Lowe, and none of them were as statistically successful as Pettitte last year. Again, one year deal for a proven pitcher, NO BRAINER.

P.S. Remember who they didn’t sign to go after Randy Johnson, et al a few years ago? A center fielder named Carlos Beltran, who would look pretty damn good in CF these days, considering what the Yanks have been putting out there. They should remember that when neglecting another stud player, both offensively and defensively, at a position they desparately need help at – i.e. Tex at 1B.
- Mike Pop
  
  Ya losing out on Beltran was a HUGE mistake imo
- http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.
  
  Puh-lease. Beltran would be booed here like A-Rod is.
  - Mike Pop
    
    Lol so what.. Those are the boos of glory
    - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones
      
      BOOO-URNS!!! BOOO-URNS!!!
      - radnom
        
        I was saying boo-urns.
  - Chris
    
    He’d still be one of the best CF in the game, even with everyone booing him.
    - Joe Fitz
      
      It’s not even close. Who else combined power numbers, speed and defense in CF?
      
      And he’s also as clutch as they come.
emac2

We have to keep Pettittes number lower not because of CC or AJ but because of Jeter.

We have to stop giving out deals like Posadas to older players and use the same calculations we would use if looking outside the organization. I’m happy to have Pettitte for 10 mil but much more and I would rather move on.
- Scott of 3 Kids Tickets
  
  I agree with your comment if this was a multi year deal. This is a one year deal. Show him some love (unlike when George tossed him a few years back in his prime)and settle with him for whatever amount.
  
  -Scott
  - http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
    
    Building a team based on showing someone love because of what they’ve done in the past doesn’t lead to success. I know we all love Pettitte, but if the Yankees don’t feel that he’s the right one for the job, then he goes. It’s a business with an end goal, not a lovefest.
Shamus

$16M for a .500 #4 starter in teh AL East? No f’n way !

I’d rather see that money go towards CC. Or Lowe and AJ. Or CC and Lowe
OR TEX.

IMO, get CC, and then some combo of Lowe, or AJ (right years). A ro of CC, Wang, Lowe, Pettitte/Moose, Joba/Phil/Aceves/Coke.

Thats a solid 1-2-3, w/ a deep 4 and 5.

Signing Lowe to 3 years, say $45-$50M seems right. CC for 6@$150M.

Then Tex, for 6 years @ $150M.

Tex=25py
CC=25py
Lowe=15py

$65M increase in payroll. Or, of the $85M that came off the payroll, they still bank $20M.
- Shamus
  
  Well, I guess I forgot to add the aav for the #4, ie Pettitte or Moose. So figure in $15 at most and they still bank $5M. Plus the 1M they got for Rasner…
  
  LOL
CountryClub

Everone is putting way too much stock into what Andy did over the 2nd half of last year and not enough stock into what he did the season and a half before that (including a post season gem). The guy had a sore shoulder last year and pitched anyway because our staff was already in shambles. Like a lot of people on this board, I’d give him 20 mil for one year instead of giving Lowe 4 years or AJ 5 years. Lowe will be an enormous mistake.
- Jake K.
  
  I don’t see how a pitcher having a sore shoulder, especially at his age, is a point in his favor.
  
  Also, I think the Yankees need to take sentimentality out of their decision-making process. The Red Sox dumped their icons (Nomar, Pedro, Manny) and it worked out pretty well for them.
  - CountryClub
    
    A one year contract is not being sentimental. What they gave to Jorge last year was more about the past then the present. And a sore shoulder is a sore shoulder. In normal circumstances he would have missed a start or two and then been fine. He didnt have that luxury last year and pitched through it. All reports say that there’s no structural damage.
  - Ed
    
    The sore shoulder is a point in Pettitte’s favor because it explains the ineffectiveness. Under normal circumstances, Pettitte would’ve skipped a few starts and been fine, but considering the state of the pitching staff, he pitched through it.
    
    Which would you rather have had in the 2nd half – the Andy Pettitte we got, or Igawa taking his place? That’s what it boiled down to… Pettitte pitching when he should have taken time off was a better choice than having Igawa take his place.
Brad K

I don’t see what signing Andy has to do with signing Burnett. They are two different situations. Burnett comes with at least a 3-4 year expectation of solid performance. Andy’s spot would have to be dealt with again next off season. If you give Andy 20m/1 year and don’t sign Burnett then we still have a hole to fill. I’m not crazy about Burnett and not for 5+ years but I also can’t see giving Andy 16m at this point.
erik

offer him arbitration?
Joe Fitz

This will be a moot point if Mussina retires because it is automatic that they sign Andy P. Because they will not want 3 pitchers on long term deals. Andy going yr to yr is a great thing for the franchise.
Steve

Without knowing which side this report came from, its very possible THE YANKEES leaked this, knowing how popular Andy is and how fans will respond to him being unreasonable with his contract demands. From all the years Andy has been here, he’s never struck me as a money guy. Actually, I could cite 3 or 4 things that tell me he’s the exact opposite.

If it came from the Yanks, then you have every reason to believe its PR. Which is another way of saying BS. Until there is some confirmation from Andy’s side, I don’t believe it.
- Steve
  
  Check that-This is from the Yankee side. So this could very well be C.Y.A for the pending Andy departure from the Yankee PR department.
C.Panella

If rumor of the 5/80 for AJ is true and he signs it then pettitte does become a bit of a question mark…Im not as agasint signing AJ as most of you are on here in an ideal world you would want the deal to be 4 years but that just might not be possible…AJ will cost the same as pettitte give or take a mill or two but id rather go with AJ only time will tell but if this 5/80 is true we may have seen the last of andy in pinstripes