Parsing Pettitte’s comments for 2010
ByFor much of the last two off-seasons, the Andy Pettitte Question has loomed over the Yanks’ pitching plans. Each year, Pettitte has equivocated about his future, and each year, he has ended up signing with the Yanks after much back and forth. This year, he signed at the end of January, fairly late in the Hot Stove League.
So far, 2009 has been kind to Andy Pettitte. He is enjoying a second-half renaissance, and while he wasn’t at his best on Friday, he admitted that the blowout score distracted him. He still pitched the Yanks to a big win though, and his second-half numbers — 2.82 ERA, 47 K, 1.11 WHIP in 7 starts spanning 44.2 innings — are superb for a mid-rotation starter.
With his Friday victory, in fact, Pettitte won his 10th game of the year, and it marked the 12th time in 12 Yankee seasons Pettitte has reached double digits in wins. He has been nothing if not durable and fairly consistent during his Yankee career.
Perennially surrounding Pettitte are questions and concerns about his left elbow and his age. He will turn 38 midway through the 2010 season, and the Yankees have a few young pitchers waiting in the wings. That doesn’t faze Andy. While Pettitte is still focusing on the current goal of that championship this season, he is looking ahead a bit to 2010, and in a recent interview with Daily News sports writer Christian Red, Pettitte talked about his pinstriped future:
But Pettitte hinted Sunday night that he not only wants to play next year, but that he would prefer a return engagement in pinstripes. After weathering an offseason in which he and the Yankees haggled for weeks before agreeing on a deal, the 37-year-old lefthander said he does not want to repeat a lengthy contract process.
“I really would hate . . . I really don’t want to go into the offseason, you know, and sit there and be a free agent again, have to worry about other people making me offers and whatever,” the lefthander told the Daily News before the rubber game against the Red Sox…
“As far as next year – I’m trying to get through this year. I hope I can stay healthy and try to help this club win. That’s all we’re looking at right now. I’m not through – we got a lot of starts left (this season). I want my arm to be healthy. Once I get closer, I can start thinking about that. Maybe start talking to my family and my wife about that.”
To me, Pettitte sounds as though he wants to and will do his best to return next year. By all accounts, his arm has been feeling better than it has in years, and while the Yankees should recognize the need to rest their starters in advance of October, Pettitte’s health and success has been a pleasant surprise.
For next year, then, if Pettitte’s arm holds up over the last five weeks of the season and into October, the Yankees should bring him back, and they should do so because of Chien-Ming Wang. Wang’s surgery has completely changed the equation. In the past, the Yanks were eying a 2010 rotation of CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, Chien-Ming Wang, Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes. Wang though is out until at least midway through the 2010 season, and his ability to pitch effectively is up in the air.
As Cliff Corcoran wrote via Twitter this morning, “CC, AJ, Joba, Andy, Hughes, with Wang as the alternate? Yeah, that’d work.” Sounds good to me.
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CC, AJ, Joba, Pettitte, Hughes sounds good. For teh d3pth, should we try to release then resign Wang to a minor league deal so he can rehab, or just let him walk?
He has to be up for it, obviously. The downside for him is that it takes him off the 40-man roster for the time being, and he loses out on all the service time he’d accrue while being on the DL.
That means he’d have to wait another year before being a free agent (assuming he misses a nice chunk of 2010), but he’d also need more time in the league to qualify for a pension (10yr service time, required. That’s kind of a big deal.
I think the likeliest scenario on all sides is that they just agree to a new one-year deal at no raise (same 5M salary from this year).
No going to arb, no minor league deals, just another contract and go.
That means he’d have to wait another year before being a free agent (assuming he misses a nice chunk of 2010)
Probably not an issue. Wang was called up one month into the 2005 season and never sent back down, so after this season he’ll have 4 5/6 years of service time. I don’t know the specifics down to the day, but even if he gets called up 9/1 next year he should reach free agency at the same time he would have otherwise.
but he’d also need more time in the league to qualify for a pension (10yr service time, required. That’s kind of a big deal.
That one is a biggie. It’s come up before – Pavano refused the Yankees idea of a release and resign because he had 9 years service time at the time. 10 years is a full pension.
It’s come up before – Pavano refused the Yankees idea of a release and resign because he had 9 years service time at the time. 10 years is a full pension.
If Pavano burns through his career earnings and needs his full pension, then he doesn’t deserve it.
Carl Pavano has made approximately 50M over the course of his big league career.
If you told me that his total medical/rehab bills over that period were 49M, I’d believe it.
carl pavano:rehab::brett favre:retirement
for some reason I wasn’t surprised when you drafted him ha
It was the pick of the draft, you’ve gotta admit it. I lit the room on fire.
Best pick: Me snagging Favre in the 10th round, ninja-style
Worst pick: baseballbackyet taking Devin Hester in the third round
i still can’t believe you actually drafted tj duckett.
BOOOM, THAT JUST HAPPENED. IS YOUR MIND BLOWN?!??!
If Pavano burns through his career earnings and needs his full pension, then he doesn’t deserve it.
I think most people would agree that Pavano reached the point of not deserving the money he’s “earned” years ago.
Pensions really mean a big deal to players though, and the teams realize it. When Tomko was released by the Dodgers a few years ago, the team actually waited a week or so after making the decision because he was on the verge of accumulating 10 years service time. Cut him with 10 years time to the day I believe to ensure that he’d get the pension.
i think hughes should switch with Mitre. Sergio is really good and they should release Wang or trade him for a better pitcher
Wang is arb eligible – what do you think happens? Do the Yanks try to sign him to a multi-year deal at a bit of a discount – like they did a few years back with Jon Leiber?
Or, do they just go to arb and see what happens – shoulder injury, he may not do much at all in 2010 but do the Yanks potentially risk losing Wang?
Go to arb. He’ll get somewhere between 4-6M, which is okay. We can and should gamble 4-6M for one year to see if he can make it back, but a two-year commitment is too much.
Agreed on bringing back Wang – probably best to just pay the arb like you said, I guess I was wondering if Cash would try for something like 2 years 8 mil – essentially gambling that Wang could be an absolute steal in 2011 at that price.
Yankees should risk losing Wang. They should trade him for a better pitcher
Bring Andy back on a similar deal to this year. It’s a no brainer for me.
bring back andy
give kennedy one more year in the minors to get ready for 2011 or late 2010
Not to mention, it gives Z-Mac & I Nova another year to develop.
Kontos too.
It is a no brainer to bring back Pettitte.
Who knows if Wang ever makes it back? Who knows if IPK makes it back and/or can be effective against major league hitters? Who knows what Hughes’ innings limit will be. Does Aceves start next year?
If anything, they need Pettitte and another starter for more depth. If we have learned anything from this year, it is that you effectively need seven starters to make it though the season.
If anything, they need Pettitte and another starter for more depth. If we have learned anything from this year, it is that you effectively need seven starters to make it though the season.
Agree, but IMO that other starter shouldn’t be a premium, multi-year guy like a Lackey, but should be a cheaper and shorter guy, possibly returning from rehab, like Duchscherer, Hudson, Escobar, or Sheets (although I doubt he’ll be available at prices we like.)
i’d take a gamble on duchscherer. he has flexibility in that he can stick in the bullpen or immediately be slotted in to the middle/back end of the rotation. another aceves type of guy – i’m a fan.
obviously this all hinges on a couple of things: getting himself right in the off season and oakland letting him walk. considering their needs, i’d say that oakland brings him back.
I’d say, considering their payroll, Oakland doesn’t bring him back.
I disagree somewhat. The extra starter(s) should be either guys with options left or someone on a minor league deal. The Red Sox showed this year the problem with having a lot of mediocre pitching depth that can’t be sent to the minors.
The Duke suffers from clinical depression and has a weird bowel problem. I’m not sure New York would be good for his psyche or his asshole.
With Wang a giant question mark, and only 1 guy in Hughes that you feel needs to be a starter next year, it makes a ton of sense to keep that veteran lefty presence, figure they could get Andy back for about whatever they end up paying him this year in guaranteed money.
With Wang’s injury, the team needs one more reliable option. Pettitte is probably the #3 starter on most teams, handles NY fine, wants to come back, and will take a 1 year deal. What’s not to like?
Andy’s the perfect 4th-5th starter for this team. As long as he’s healthy and he wants to pitch, a one year deal, perhaps even with a team option for ’11, should be offered.
Clearly Pettitte is going to get his wish if he can maintain the quality of the starts he’s provided thus far in ’09. There isn’t much out there in the free agent market that could be argued as better alternatives. Pettite-Joba as the 3-4 also gives Cash flexibility to skip Hughes every now and then.
As much as I like Timmy Hudson, I think we’d likely have to overpay him. If Andy takes a 1 year/ 7 MM deal … i’d be cool with it.
With all the question marks for next season, there’s no reason not to resign him if he stays healthy.
Joba – I’m still not convinced he can be starter that gives you 6 innings every 5 games. Combine that with his innings limit that will probably be still in effect next season.
Hughes – Great reliever, still unproven starter. Not saying he won’t be one day, but still a question mark for 2010.
Wang – Out for first half of 2010.
After that, everyone else is unproven (Aceves, Mitre, or anyone else in AAA)
Why should Joba have an innings limit next year? The plan is to get him to 160 IP during the season. Then there is pretty much no limit in the post-season. If he gets to 160 this year there is no problem getting him to 200 next year.
Agreed, Joba’s limit will be high enough (200-210 IP) that it’s basically non-existent.
And also, Hughes isn’t really a “question mark” or “unproven” as a starter for 2010. He’ll be innings capped at probably around 160-180, and he may have the normal young pitcher struggles/growing pains, but there’s no question that he’ll be in the rotation all year.
2010 Phil Hughes = 2009 Joba Chamberlain. Meaning that he’ll look crappy on occasion and won’t go deep into games on occasion, but come August/September/October, he’ll be a great starter. (And we’ll be trying to limit his workload so he can be available in October, so maybe we should revisit my idea about delaying the beginning of Hughes’s season until May.)
so maybe we should revisit my idea about delaying the beginning of Hughes’s season until May.
The Yankees essentially tried that idea with Joba last year. I doubt they’re going to revisit it. If you try to limit innings and backload the distribution, you risk an injury completely blowing your plans. If you frontload the work, you can recover from an injury if necessary.
The Yankees essentially tried that idea with Joba last year.
They tried that stupidly.
I’m not talking about starting Hughes in the bullpen in April and then transitioning him to the rotation in May.
I’m talking about Hughes just not pitching AT ALL in February/March, doing EXST in March/April, and then joining the rotation in early/mid May.
He remains a starter for all of 2010. His season just starts a month later than everyone else. No transitioning or stretching out, just a delay.
I agree the Yankees managed Joba stupidly, and I knew roughly what you meant.
Your idea works better if you’re willing to gamble that no injuries will happen. But it still has the flaw of the ’08 Joba plan that one injury means you miss the innings target and face the same limit the following year.
I don’t think the 2009 Joba plan has much to do with *why* Joba got hurt in ’08, but just the fact that he did and ended up with less innings than in ’07.
Agreed. My plan is not foolproof, I just think it’s the smartest idea out of several slightly less smart ones.
I’m down.
2010 Free Agents:
Pettitte: Bring him back. He’s a good 5th starter, and all other options would require a commitment too long in years/dollars when we have several young internal options close to being ready.
Damon: Yeah, bring him back. He’s like Pettitte: Still good, and less risky than other options since he’ll play on a short contract.
Matsui: Love him, but no. Too much injury risk, too one-dimensional (although that dimension is good). Even in losing his great bat, we’re probably better served keeping the DH spot free for resting our other aging vets. If he’s willing to take a 1yr/8M and okay coming off the bench if/when we find an upgrade, maybe. But I doubt that.
Nady: No. Two TJS = pass.
Hairston: If he’ll come back knowing that he’s a backup, absolutely.
Hinske: See Hairston.
Molina: Thanks for the service, job well done, pat on the butt. Now, make way for Frankie Cervelli.
Interesting on Matsui that you would bring him back at 8 mil with the off the bench caveat – I think that’s possible and it would be a good risk.
8 mil is a fair deal
considering “wallflower” Abreu signed for $5 and he sort of can play the of.
Agree Hairston, Frankie C gets a spot maybe the big move is a trade for a CFer with Melky becoming a 350 ab reserve (or GGBG who has a big advantage in that he is not Dominican).
Nady’s arb # should be reasonable. I wouldnt mind him back on a 1 yr deal. It looks like he’ll be a type B, so if he doesnt accept the Yanks will get a pick.
Nady will probably get $8 M in arb and won’t be ready until mid-season. And the recovery rate for a 2nd Tommy John surgery is really low. That’s a lot of money to gamble.
You’re looking at it like he’s a pitcher. His return will be a lot sooner than mid season. I’m pretty sure i read that he’d be ready for the start of the season…I could be mistaken on that though.
I don’t think he’ll miss half the season, but I’d be surprised if he was ready opening day. I’m expecting mid-late May for a return. Opening day is the “if all goes right” scenario, but even if a 2nd Tommy John surgery goes well, it tends to take longer to recover than the first.
I’ve got a feeling that Melky + Gardner + AJax means we don’t spend any money/prospects to upgrade CF.
I’m more inclined to upgrade LF and move Damon to DH.
I heard Girardi on the Fan last week and he said he likes the idea of having the DH open so that he can use it to give guys a half day off. He said the veterans have told him that after they DH they feel refreshed the next day.
Cash will have to buy into this idea, but it looks like Girardi doesnt want a full time DH.
then bringing back hairston/hinske should be easier, telling them they will get to play 2-3 times a week when regulars are dhing
we complain about the rotating dh because it means a subpar bat has to play but I don’t have a huge issue nxt yr with dhing arod/jeter/cano and playing hairston at 3b/ss/2b those days or dhing swisher/damon and playing hinske at those positions.
of course if its one or the other i take hairston because of his position versatility
The big problem with using the DH to rest players is it severely weakens your lineup, expecially if Hairston and/or Hinske do not return.
For example, let say A-Rod is DHing then you have Hairston at third, which is far worse offensive combo than A-Rod and Matsui at third/DH. It will be even worse the Yankees can’t resign Hairston and have to play Pena at third.
An additional problem with this is one of the most DHed would be Posada, which may require the team to add 3rd catcher, so a catcher is available on the bench to prevent playing the DH in the field if an injury/pinch running/pinch hitting were to occur to the backup (Cervelli).
Even if Jorge gets a lot of DH time, I don’t think they’d bring in a third catcher.
I’ll take anyone who can catch and throw in either corner.
I guess Damon\Sui and Jorge can share the DH spot effectively – realizing that Matsui is more of a long shot to actually return.
A-Jax needs to spend some more time in AAA next year – maybe the whole year – Yanks can afford to have him do so – I think it may come down to who is available and at what price which determines which of spot the Yanks upgrade (if at all).
Addendum,
One nit to pick, who gets the dirty job of patting Molina on the butt? Not going to be pretty.
All of this is not batshit insane.
Keep Hairston and bag the rest.
Hmmm… no.
I wasn’t asking
If he’s willing to take a 1yr/8M and okay coming off the bench
as opposed to him playing every day now?
you guys have raised my cynicism level severely…i’m doubting frankie has what it takes.
how does his arm compare to molina’s?
i’m concerned that Godzilla’s knees dont respond to a draining or two, then we end up cutting him, which would be a huge shame (on both our parts). i’d really like for him to be honest with himself and his doctor over the offseason, and if he cant make it, then find a way to gracefully move on. if he can come back cheap (one year) and damon can come back ‘cheap’ (1+1 with a buyout), then bring them both back.
essentially, if we have THIS EXACT TEAM next year, i dont think we’d be any worse–maybe better:
no missing arod for a month? who knows.
no missing both catchers for a month? again…but we think we like frankie
no missing nady for a months? (i wouldnt say i’ve been missing him bob)
missing ransom?
no innings limits for joba?
phil as a starting pitcher?
dunno guys, we come back just like we are now i think we’re in btter shape!
I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter, sir!
MLBTR’s updated list of free agents:
Starting pitchers
Brandon Backe (32)
Miguel Batista (39)
Josh Beckett (30) – $12MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Erik Bedard (31)
Kris Benson (34)
Daniel Cabrera (29)
Chris Capuano (31)
Bartolo Colon (37)
Jose Contreras (38)
Doug Davis (34)
Justin Duchscherer (32)
Adam Eaton (32)
Shawn Estes (37)
Josh Fogg (33)
Freddy Garcia (34)
Jon Garland (30) – $10MM mutual option with $2.5MM or $1MM buyout
Tom Glavine (44)
Mike Hampton (37)
Rich Harden (28)
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Livan Hernandez (35)
Tim Hudson (34) – $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Jennings (31)
Jason Johnson (36)
Randy Johnson (46)
John Lackey (31)
Cliff Lee (31) – $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Braden Looper (35) – option
Rodrigo Lopez (34)
Jason Marquis (31)
Kevin Millwood (35) – Rangers can decline $12MM salary for ’10 unless he reaches 180 innings in ’09
Brian Moehler (38) – mutual option
Brett Myers (29)
Vicente Padilla (32) – $12MM club option with a $1.75MM buyout
Chan Ho Park (37)
John Parrish (32)
Carl Pavano (34)
Brad Penny (32)
Odalis Perez (33)
Andy Pettitte (38)
Joel Pineiro (31)
Sidney Ponson (33)
Mark Prior (28)
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Jason Schmidt (37)
John Smoltz (43)
Tim Wakefield (43) – perpetual $4MM club option
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Brandon Webb (31) – $8.5MM club option with a $500K+ buyout
Todd Wellemeyer (31)
Kip Wells (33)
Randy Wolf (33)
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ree-a.html
Cliff Lee (31) – $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
I’d bet my first-born on the Phillies picking up that club option. What a steal.
Yeah, Lee, Beckett, Wakefield, and Millwood are all locks to have their options picked up. Padilla, Garland, and Moehler won’t be, they’ll hit the market again.
The interesting two will be Webb and Hudson. Webb’s young and good, but 8.5M is a lot for a guy that you don’t know if he’ll be back (especially if you’re the D-Bags.) And Hudson is great if he’s healthy, but 12M is a TON.
I bet Hudson hits the market and Webb gets retained by Arizona. JMHO.
Oh, and Ben Sheets (31) isn’t on the list, he should be.
I remember when Chris Capuano was destined to be a great number 2 starter. Oops.
i’d like them to take a shot at harden. absolutely filthy stuff IF/WHEN healthy. he hasn’t been the poster boy for stability in his career, and maybe that’s the type of guy we should be avoiding – even despite his ability?
at least with the thought of pettitte returning, we pretty much know by now what we’re going to get out of him. and considering we can retain him without any unnecessary spending, i say go for it. having andy on another 1 year deal would NOT be the worst thing in the world. there are a few young starting pitchers close or very close to being ready to contribute at the major league level (if the yankees choose to go that route — which i hope they do), and having another long term contract would only hurt their chances. pettitte on a one year deal gives those guys the extra time to develop which is VERY nice.
Harden intrigues me too, i just have no idea how he’s going to price himself.
I’m intrigued by your ignorance.
I’m not intrigued by yours.
if pettitte continues his strong pitching for the reat of the season, im all for bringing him back next year. by the way, slade heathcott is in the lineup today in tampa, batting leadoff
I’m fine with keeping Andy. He’s still a league average starter and eats innings, those are still very valuable, especially given his track record and experience. 1 year at 8 million would be fine with me. I would prefer to not pay him 10 million guaranteed, but somewhere between 8-10 million is fine.
What is the proposal? Sign pettitte for top dollarto pitch the second half? The problem I see with his second half numbers is how bad that makes his first half given the 4.25 ERA.
If he wants to pitch for 5 mil (which I bet he doesn’t) I say sign him but he always wants top dollar more than anything else and you don’t give 10 mil to 38 year old mid to lower rotation starters.
I think his comments are that he wants to return if the Yankees but isn’t interested in negotiations. He wants his number met before the end of the season or he doesn’ want to deal with it.
No thanks.
Who says Pettitte is getting top dollar? I’d be willing to bet that if he’s back, he’s going to get a deal similar to this year: a relatively low base with a decent amount of incentives.
When has Pettitte ever left a penny on the table?
I wouldn’t renew him on the same deal. The incentives are way too high and I don’t want him pulling an attitude if he gets skipped in the rotation once in awhile.
A 5 mil base with some incentices is fine but none of this crap where he gets paid on innings alone no matter how poor the innings are.
I don’t want him pulling an attitude
when, in pettitte’s 12 years with the yankees, has he EVER had an “attitude”??
I’m going to assume you are either a young fan or have a very different idea of attitude.
please don’t start that headier than thou young fan old fan bullshit. it has no place anywhere and is just so so lame. almost as bad as you must not watch the games or know anything about baseball
Just because you don’t get the point doesn’tmean it is rude.
But…you really waste your time telling me what I can and cannot post. You would be better served by continuing to scroll down the page.
you obviously don’t watch the games or understand baseball
I’m sure you far surpassed my knowledge when you graduated from elementay school last year.
More importantly however is that I understand money which you clearly do not.
More importantly however is that I understand money which you clearly do not.
Your comments on this page do not agree with this statement.
you obviously don’t understand money or have a ged.
can’t we all just get along?
An ignore button would be a valuable addition to this site.
i’m almost 24. only a few years younger than the writers on this website and older than what i’d assume is 30% of the RAB member base. but as a lesson to you, i hope you learn that lower age =/= lack of knowledge. NEVER talk down to someone because you believe that since you’re older, that all of a sudden means you’re more knowledgeable. my dad, at 56 years old, may know more about baseball in the sense of knowing the accomplishments of past players – that comes with being around longer and being able to experience it. but he has NO CLUE about the semantics of the minor leagues or sabermetrics. but here i am at 23 and i know more about the game than he does.
and as far as andy/attitude goes – the only time i ever recall reading or hearing negative things about him is him wanting his 16 million in 2008. but if wanting to get paid for doing your job at a level that is equal or better than your peers is a bad thing by your standards, i hope you never get a raise at work.
by the way, he’s taken pay cuts not only with the yankees but ESPECIALLY when the astros signed him in 2003 when he could have made bank. but what did andy do? he decided to give drayton mcclane and the astros a big ol’ hometown discount since they were looking to lower payroll. i didn’t see him complain then, and i didn’t see him complain in 2009 when he accepted an incentive laden contract and, in return, was taking a significantly inferior deal.
from what i recall, he has had nothing but a positive attitude over the course of his career. if anyone was going to complain about having his starts skipped for the sake of staying fresh or otherwise, andy pettitte would be the last guy i’d imagine to do so.
+3,595,936,947,854,00
and I am on the second side of quarter century (although by little) and i personally approve of this message. It is what i was trying to get across but put so much better
oh come on now.
We both know you would have to look up what that number is.
Always trying to sound like some smart little guy!
What does age have to do with intelligence?
It has to do with experience and you don’t seem to have experienced the complete Andy Pettitte history or you wouldn’t wonder what I was talking about.
I don’t want to get into a litany of how Pettitte isn’t perfect because it isn’t relevant to his value next year and that is what I was here to discuss. I wanted to discuss his value to the team and avoid distraction on tangental points.
But if it matters I’m almost twice your age and have been reading Bill James since you were born. I know stats well enough to know that most people don’t have a clue how to use them properly. You shouldn’t so quickly assume you know more than your dad just for that reason though in reality most people who don’t follow stats at all don’t follow the game very closely in my opinion.
I teased dicbreth about his age because he was so ashamed of the topic he flipped out and I couldn’t resist.
I’m sorry if I came off insulting to you though because I wasn’t offended by what you said and honestly tried to reference that you hadn’t been following him for very long as opposed to saying you are stupid which I wouldn’t hesitate to do if I felt that way. I was in fact trying to avoid a long irrelevant post like this one so it was a complete failure in the long run.
BTW – Do you remember what that big old home town discount was? I remember it being about 17 million but maybe I’m too old to consider that a discount or remember properly.
thanks for clarifying, emac.
not sure what pettitte could have gotten from any other team, but the yankees offered 3/39 while the ‘stros offered 3/31.5 – essentially $7.5 mil less for the same amount of years. it was heavily backloaded, if i remember correctly. $5.5 million in ’04, $8.5 million in 2005 and $17.5 million in 2006.
Even if Pettitte hits all his incentives this year and gets the maximum 12M, he’ll have been worth every penny.
A veteran lefty who makes 30+ starts, pitches 200+ innings with a 4.25 ERA in the AL East and more wins than losses… that’s worth 12M easily.
+46
Andy’s 31st in WAR, just a smidge behind Johan. Most of the guys ahead of him are either paid like aces or stud prospects that haven’t got to their pay days.
Most of the guys?
More overwhelming (and incorrect)stats!
You guys must work for FOX
DBHOF is that you?
I have a hunch he’s Pinstripe Destiny. He called me a clown a little while back and then didn’t respond when I asked if he’s Pinstripe Destiny.
I’m not pinstripe destiny.
and you are still a clown.
I just left after posting that because you seem more interested in discussion diction than baseball.
Have you looked at the pitchers’ WAR leaderboards at all?
The 30 pitchers ahead of Andy are either paid more(Halladay, CC, Lowe, Santana), having career years that are inconsistent with track record(Marquis, Vasquez, Piniero), or young guys who either got arbitration bought out, are in arbitration years, or haven’t gotten to arbitration yet.
Next time, do some actual research before calling others out.
Pettitte has a consistant track record?
is that for 30 days or 45?
In 15 seasons, Andy Pettitte’s had an ERA+ under 100 just once. That’s the very definition of consistency.
yeah, but we aren’t signing him to a 10 year backwards contract and the last few years he hasn’t been very good. Consistantly bad would be the only recent consistancy though in fairness he throws in a good month here and there.
but you bet – Throughout his career he has been very consistantly good but not great.
He had a bad stretch from the 2nd half last year through the 1st half this year. In ’07, he was basically the exact same pitcher in both halves: league average. And, this year, because of a good second half (that I don’t think he’ll necessarily keep up), he’s been the same. He’s not a top of the rotation guy, but that’s not how he’s expected to perform anymore. As a back end guy, which he is and he would be next year, he’s more than acceptable.
No question.
I think we pretty much agree as I said 5 and I think you said 5-8.
It’s not that I think he is going to come in with a 7 ERA. It’s just that he isn’t going to come in pretty close to league average and that just isn’t worth more.
I do have to call you on the idea that he was consistant until he got of HGH a couple of years ago and has been a half season guy since.
Why don’t you think he’s going to come close to being lg. avg. anymore? He was at 110 ERA+ in ’07, 98 in ’08 (with an awful, awful second half), and he’s at 105 right now, even with a bad first half. I think he’ll be very close to league average, if not slightly, slightly better than it. If one of Burnett or Sabtahia was not on the team, I’d be much more concerned.
Typo – That was supposed to read that I expect him to come in at about league average.
Oh. I understand now.
He is worth 10 mil because you say he is!
You should have just said that.
No.
He’s worth 10 mil because people study baseball in detail and correlate production on the field with how that production is compensated in the free agent market.
Seriously, these are not hard concepts to understand, unless you choose to life your life by the fiat of “if I think Player X sucks, that means I must be right and all evidence that disagrees with my decision therefore must be wrong.”
What isn’t a hard concept to understand?
That people who study baseball and correlate production to salary know what they are talking about or that you don’t know when this information is dated?
Because you have provided us with so much data and insight as to why Pettitte isn’t worth $10 million?
Did you even follow baseball last year???
What free agent signing last year would indicate that Pettitte would get 10 mil?
That he is half as good as someone who made twice as much? That only works in arbitration and has nothing to do with fair market value.
Did you even follow baseball last year???
I CALLED IT! pay up.
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-548561
What free agent signing last year would indicate that Pettitte would get 10 mil?
Exhibit A: Andy Pettitte
you obviously don’t understand money, baseball quantum mechanics, farm animals, reading, or the universe.
Is this a joke or are you totally missing the concept.
That last one was for tommie.
JB is just trying to prove that he is firmly in high school and has a thing for farm animals but this isn’t really the place for that.
we obviously don’t understand concepts
“Did you even follow baseball last year???
What free agent signing last year would indicate that Pettitte would get 10 mil?
That he is half as good as someone who made twice as much? That only works in arbitration and has nothing to do with fair market value.”
Except Pettitte DID NOT sign a $10M deal based on last year’s performance, but rather a $5M incentive laden deal, which was reflective of his down 2008. And if you’re talking about his contract for next season, I have no idea why you’d use his value from last year to assign his worth when he’s having a much better current season.
Derek Lowe signed a 4/$60M deal
Garland signed for $8.75M guaranteed (technically only worth $8.75M if the D-Backs turn down his $10M option for next year).
How about Ollie P’s legendary 3/$36M?
According to FanGraphs value page Pettitte has already been worth 12.7 million dollars this year. I fail to see how signing him to a 10 million dollar deal would be this epic fail you keep going on about emac.
this is the kind of stuff that gives stats a bad name.
So the statement is even though Lowe was signed to a terrible deal Pettitte should be paid using that template?
I disagree. why would we look at lowe instead of someone making next to nothing and outperforming his contract?
I think you have to look at deals that were signed last year, deduct 10-20% for the continued decline and then make sure you are comparing contracts that are reasonable contracts. Saying Lowe was overpaid that that means Pettitte should be overpaid makes no sense unless, again, it is arbitration.
Matt: “Who says Pettitte is getting top dollar? I’d be willing to bet that if he’s back, he’s going to get a deal similar to this year: a relatively low base with a decent amount of incentives.”
emac2: “When has Pettitte ever left a penny on the table?”
To paraphrase:
Matt: I think he’d take a deal like the one he took for 2009.
emac2: But when has Pettitte ever taken a deal like that?
Everyone in unison: 2009.
well played
Pettite left money on the table this year?
I guess you think he was worth 20 mil instead of 12?
LOL
I’d try to explain the joke to you, but you’d just accuse me of only being interesting in “discussion diction” again and call me a clown.
I don’t come here to learn about humor and you are correct. I would follow up your attempt at a lesson with another insult. Thanks for sparing everyone.
can we be spared your obnoxious attitude and attacks on everyone?
just as soon as you flee to the next post you were begging for.
Or you could shut up as impossible as that may be.
so then who takes his rotation spot next year?
Well, if Pettitte is not back for ’10, I’d have to venture a guess of:
CC
A.J.
Joba
Hughes
Winner of Aceves, Z-Mac, Nova, IPK, etc. competition in ST or maybe a flier guy.
We are totally stacked with starters but the problem seems to be that the Yankees aren’t allowed to pencil anyone in who hasn’t proven themselves without a potential fan revolt.
I would start CC, AJ, Joba, Hughes and Aceves.
I would hopefully have Wang come back at some point and have nova, mcAllister and a few others about ready to contribute.
We have enough money that we don’t need 10 good options. If someone gets hurt and none of the kids improve we can trade for someone.
I’m quite confident that 30+ starts of Pettitte would look better than 30+ starts of Aceves.
I like Alf. As a reliever. He doesn’t have the stuff to turn a lineup over 4 times for 30+ starts. He’d get exposed.
No doubt Pettite should be better but how afraid of competition do you have to be to spend 10 mil on a number 5 starter who is going to cry if he doesn’t earn a playoff start?
I am constantly amazed at the level of fear some fans express at the idea of replacing an old guy with a young prospect. Espcially when the old guys hasn’t been that great lately (well, except for those that get excited about a good month after 3 bad ones)
I didn’t know Aceves was considered a “young prospect” by anyone.
compared to andy everyone is a young prospect.
and you say 4-60 for Lowe is a reasonable comp????
What, is “young prospect” now a relative term?
… but how afraid of competition do you have to be to spend 10 mil on a number 5 starter who is going to cry if he doesn’t earn a playoff start?
emac2: 1
Strawman: 0
I am constantly amazed at the level of fear some fans express at the idea of replacing an old guy with a young prospect.
emac2: 2
Strawman: 0
Espcially when the old guys hasn’t been that great lately
emac2: 3
Strawman: 0
i hope there’s a new thread soon…or that poor strawman might not make it to the next one. he is getting pummeled out there.
Don’t address “discussion diction” with emac2. You won’t like emac2 if you address “discussion diction” with emac2.
Thanks for that pearl of wisdom.
How much time do you spend crafting these clever posts?
Too much, and it’s exhausting. These damned clown gloves make typing an arduous task.
Plus, he’s fat. Mondesi is really fat. That slows him down too.
don’t forget the kyle broslofski jew-fro like hair that continually gets in his eyes
I need to find someone who can photoshop me a picture of Raul Mondesi as a clown. My new name-link-pic will have to do for now, I suppose.
I was thinking congressmen spellchecker and king tommie the googler would work out well.
Nomass can probably help you with photoshop.
“… congressmen spellchecker…”
Show me ONE comment in which I’ve addressed your spelling. I dare you. I don’t mind being made fun of and there’s plenty to make fun of me about, but that just doesn’t make any sense.
I’m so concerned about what bothers you I don’t know what to do.
but no, research isn’t free.
In this thread: emac tries too hard
Eh, I used the “find” feature myself, no need for you to strain yourself with research. Not surprisingly, I found that I haven’t pointed out anyone’s poor spelling.
And hold on, this is kinda funny… I just realized, you’re actually the only one in this thread who has made fun of someone else’s spelling.
someday you will include context in your research and things will be so much clearer.
But how about this.
I am very sorry to offend you, tommie and js. I promise not to respond or engage you any further so we can spare everyone all of this irrelevant garbage.
I’ll allow some flaming with no response for anone who needs a last word to move on.
you’ve been the only one flaming the whole time. and the fact that you are 50 only makes it humorous and sad.
we can all look at you and feelbetter about ourselves. in that one regard, you brought something worthwhile.
Awesome!
Some introspection might also be of value. you should scan your posts in this thread.
We have enough money that we don’t need 10 good options. If someone gets hurt and none of the kids improve we can trade for someone.
yeah look how that worked out this year. plus the fact that trading costs players which when you have money like the yankees (even on a budget) it is short sighted to go in with this approach. and as this yr and last yr proved you DO need 10 options
Right… The Yankees do have enough money to cover up for the occasional mistake/weakness, but the last place they should be planning on flexing that financial muscle to correct those mistakes is on the mid-season trading market, where they’ll likely have less leverage than they do in other markets (since they’ll be acting to correct a current problem rather than planning ahead, etc., and other teams will likely know as much) and will have to spend money and talent/prospects.
This was what the Red Sox did this season. They skimped on their roster and they were going to be the only team in baseball to have payroll space for expensive guys. They were going to acquire not only Victor Martinez, but Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Miguel Cabrera, for nothing.
At least, that’s what the legendary fan forum SOSH told me. They make you pay money to post on their main board. That means they are guaranteed to give good analysis.
Well, not quite… I mean, they did think they had acquired and developed enough pitching depth this year, they didn’t plan on acquiring more pitching via trade during the season. They were just wrong.
Do you really believe that Wang will be more productive than Pettitte next year over the course of a full year?
I think the risk of being forced to trade for someone is a steep one to take when you can lock up a quality pitcher at a reasonable price.
I would agree if we hadn’t spent most of our player development money on pitchers over the last 5 years.
But we did and know have about 10 potential starters to consider throughout next year.
The totally disagree with the idea that the best investment for an extra 10 mil is a number 5 starter.
Totally stacked with starters, and we have both Mitre and Gaudin starting for us.
Wang’s hurt and unlikely to contribute next year. IPK is fresh off injury and who knows if he’ll be back and ready next year. Hughes, Joba and Aceves would all be on inning limits. So what happens if Burnett gets hurt? Mitre,?Gaudin, Josh Tower, Jason Hirsh, Kei Igawa?
You are dreaming if you think someone will trade you a 3-4 win pitcher of Andy’s caliber to you without asking for AJax, Montero, etc.
wow!
Maybe i missed the big news!
Did we resign Mitre and Gauden for next year?
Who else do we have right now or will have in 09? I don’t see this stacked thing that you speak of.
CC
AJ
Hughes (innings capped)
Joba (innings capped)
Aceves(innings capped even lower)
Kennedy(recovering from injury)
Nova(struggling in AAA)
Towers(have seen him stunk in AL East before)
Gaudin
Mitre
Igawa
ZMac(haven’t pitched above AA yet, also on inning cap)
We don’t have anybody that’s remotely good beyond the top 4. We might not resign Gaudin or Mitre, but we don’t have anyone in the pipeline that’s a good bet to be better either.
well. You are 100% wrong but there isn’t really an argument path here that can possibly advance gieven that you think everyone beyond 4 sucks.
I just disagree and we will have to see.
We have a club option on Mitre for next year, and Gaudin is still arb eligible and not a free agent, so they’re both under team control, and they’re both young and cheap, so they’re likely to be back.
You did miss the big news. As usual.
I missed the big news that they are under contract for next year or that you are too stupid to know the difference.
you don’t give 10 mil to 38 year old mid to lower rotation starters.
Meh, 10M isn’t that bad for a starter anymore.
Andy’s 2009 WAR (so far) is 2.8. That’s good for a 12.9M WAR-Dollar free agent value, and there’s still a month and change left in the season.
what someones web site says a player is worth means nothing.
Pettitte is not worth 10 mil using any current metric.
You don’t understand the metric, so you dismiss it.
I’d call you an ostrich sticking your head in the sand, if ostriches actually did that.
…you mean ostriches dont really do that?
/bummed
Pettitte is not worth 10 mil using any current metric.
except he is using the metric listed above.
That is why I said current.
I’m trying to be short with my statements so you can follow but I do need you to at least try.
But…but…the metric used above IS current.
Hence its being used by TSJC, currently.
Anything that says Pettitte is worth 10 mil is wrong and does not reflect the market.
I don’t care if they compiled production figures yesterday
“Anything that says Pettitte is worth 10 mil is wrong and does not reflect the market.”
But, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that’s what that metric is saying. Saying a player’s performance has been worth $x in 2009 is not the same thing as saying that player is worth that amount of money on the open market.
Then why is it being used as a reason I am wrong in saying Pettitte isn’t worth 10 mil?
I’m not going top speak for anyone else and, honestly, I have top run so I don’t have time to look back and see what everyone has been arguing, but I would assume they’re saying something like ‘looking forward to the next offseason, Pettitte is probably actually worth about $10M in on-field performance.’ But, look, nobody in their right mind wants the Yankees to pay above market-value for the guy (or for anyone). Nobody knows what that value will be, yet, I think people are just saying ‘he’s been worth $x this year, so I wouldn’t be mad if the Yanks sign him for around that amount, depending on what his fair market value winds up being during the upcoming offseason.’ They’re using the metric to start the discussion, it’s a guesstimate.
You, on the other hand, I think are attacking the metric… And I don’t mean this is a personal insult… But you’re attacking the metric itself because I think you misunderstand what the metric means. If you don’t like how people interpret the metric, then make that argument, but don’t throw out the metric itself and say it’s not worth discussing/analyzing.
I’m not attacking the metric. I’m dismissing it. I find the two different.
I said Pettitte would be worth 5 mil but I wouldn’t go 10 or give him the same incentives.
As for the metric, I simply can’t buy any metric that indicates we would have to pay 10million next year to sign andy Pettitte. I do not believe there is any chance someone else even comes close.
as far as an arguement that a 4.25 ERA at the bottom of the rotation being worth 10 mill this or next year, I again have to disagree. It isn’t taking into account the current economy and where the market is going to be next year.
The whole thread was about resigning Pettitte and if it was discussing how much he was worth based on a statistical comparison mostly with pitchers who signed before the collapse I missed it and would have obstained if I had seen it.
I view statistical vauation as an agent tool to inflate prices. There is going to be a very real market with real people/players and we should be waiting to see how that develops instead of pricing based on the last couple of years or current contracts.
I view statistical vauation as an agent tool to inflate prices.
Maybe that’s the reason you’re arguing as vehemently as you are. Because you begin from a flawed premise.
Me: “You, on the other hand, I think are attacking the metric… And I don’t mean this is a personal insult… But you’re attacking the metric itself because I think you misunderstand what the metric means. If you don’t like how people interpret the metric, then make that argument, but don’t throw out the metric itself and say it’s not worth discussing/analyzing.”
emac2: “I’m not attacking the metric. I’m dismissing it. I find the two different.”
Ok… Let’s try it this way, then:
You, on the other hand, I think are
attackingdismissing the metric… And I don’t mean this is a personal insult… But you’reattackingdismissing the metric itself because I think you misunderstand what the metric means. If you don’t like how people interpret the metric, then make that argument, but don’t throw out the metric itself and say it’s not worth discussing/analyzing.And Tex is not worth 22 million, Burnett is not worth 16.5 million, Matsui is not worth 13 million…but somehow, the Yankees have succeeded despite players not quite living up to what some random internet poster decides they are worth.
Actually, Tex is currently worth 18.5M in W-D. With a month left in the season, he might just make it to 22M.
LOL – it’s funny what gets covered up by doubling the payroll of your competitors.
If you guys are satisfied to win only when we spend twice as much I guess it’s fine. I would be much happier to win with a hundred million dollar payroll than a 200 mil payroll but I do understand that some people don’t like to root for teams that only have an even chance at winning.
If you guys are satisfied to win only when we spend twice as much I guess it’s fine.
emac2: 4
Strawman: 0
I would be much happier to win with a hundred million dollar payroll than a 200 mil payroll but I do understand that some people don’t like to root for teams that only have an even chance at winning.
emac2: 1
Red Herring: 0
Let me guess.
You are at work and someone is paying you to post this stuff?
emac2: 2
Red Herring: 0
emac2: 1
Ad Hominem Attack: 0
emac2: 1
Appeal to Emotion: 0
I would be much happier to win with a hundred million dollar payroll than a 200 mil payroll
Who wouldn’t but Winning >>>>> not winning. If the Yankees find ways to cut out some salary i.e. Cervelli for Molina, sure they’ll do it, but they don’t appear to care about the money that much.
winning is indeed better than not winning- thanks for that – but having a quality prospect replace a fading vet doesn’t necessarily favor either outcome.
but having a quality prospect replace a fading vet doesn’t necessarily favor either outcome.
Not sure I follow here?
Having the prospect replace the vet definitely favors lowering payroll, since the prospect can only make less than the vet.
Assuming we’re talking about a quality prospect & a fading vet, the idea would be that production would be similar
I was trying to say that Pettite in the 5 slot doesn’t increase our chances of winning over Aceves.
I’m pretty confident that Aceves would put up better numbers.
If you decided to spend the same amount you would actually be much better with Aceves because the extra 10 mil would improve other areas.
was trying to say that Pettite in the 5 slot doesn’t increase our chances of winning over Aceves.
why the hell would we try to win over Aceves? he’s on our team…
…ok, so when you write the check to the pitchers, what’s his name?
Fair enough, personally I think Pettitte, at least if he can continue on current performance of this year, is a much better option than Aceves would be over a full season. That is of course just personal opinion
You are getting bashed hard right now, so I won’t. I am curious though, who would you want to start those games instead of Andy if you have an extra $10mm to spend?
I see your answer above, my bad. Where would you allocate those Andy dollars though?
I have’t looked at the free agent market but if I was going to spend it I would spend it on something of more value than a 5 starter, middle reliever or bench player but in reality I would let it come off the payroll and leave it for flexibility in case we have a major injury.
I expect we are more likely to need a position player next year than a number 5 starter.
so ignore everything when it only costs money and missout on achance to build depth. then, when things happen and we need said depth you missed out on and didnt build you suggest trading future depth to overpay for current depth when it costs players and money.
step 1: steal underpants
step 2: ????????
step 3: make profit
Fair enough. I just think the whole Hughes IPK fiasco of 2008 makes fans want “proven” starters over “unproven” guys. I see what your saying though.
I totally agree but Aceves pitched quite well as a starter last year and now people want to put him in the pen for a final hurrah by Pettite even though he at best is going to be a 4th starter.
Last year we were counting on a lot of very young guys who in several cases hadn’t even been professionals for a more than a year. I think that this year we not only have few rookies but also more quality vets and more experience for the young guys who might take that 5th role.
It’s always a bit of a risk and if we were talking about one of the top 3 starters I would agree. If Pettitte was a 2 or 3 at this point I would also agree.
I just don’t see how anyone argues to pay 10 mil to an older player who has had a good month.
” I would spend it on something of more value than a 5 starter, middle reliever or bench player but in reality I would let it come off ”
Now I see. Can you please explain how RP > 5th Starter? I know you value starters (correctly), because you already said hughes and ace should be starters.
A closer is worth more than a 5th starter but a middle reviever is not. (probably comparable unless the mid reliever is elite and projects somewhere else down the road)
I value starters who have number 1 potential above everything else. I value number 5′s more along the lines of cashmen because they don’t make the playoff cut and I don’t worry about the teams ability to make the playoffs.
I have’t looked at the free agent market
We know, your ignorance made that abundantly clear.
but if I was going to spend it I would spend it on something of more value than a 5 starter, middle reliever or bench player
And had you looked at the free agent market, you’d see that there really aren’t any good options for anything other than 5th starters, middle relievers, or bench players. But, like you said, you didn’t look at the free agent market, you just railed ceaselessly against the opinions of the rest of us who HAVE looked at the free agent market. Which is dumb.
but in reality I would let it come off the payroll and leave it for flexibility in case we have a major injury.
Which makes no sense. You don’t wait until you need insurance to get insurance.
I expect we are more likely to need a position player next year than a number 5 starter.
True. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense to spend money on Andy to be a 5th starter. The fact that I need a new car doesn’t mean I should stop bathing on a daily basis.
Which makes no sense. You don’t wait until you need insurance to get insurance.
My fully operational Death Panel disagrees…
Isn’t 10 million dollars in the bank better insurance then trying to predict what you need insurance for 6 months ahead of time?
You aren’t talking about insurance. You are talking about buying a new car because you might get in an accident next year.
which…would be insurance, ie the exchange of premium in exchange for the assumption of future risk.
premium=cost of car
risk=not having a car because of an accident next year
(there are very VERY few insurances that cover past risks, and even those only cover the risk while they’re in place, and then will pay after they’ve been cancelled because the hazard didnt show up until after the policy had lapsed)
I’m sorry – That is sort of like an insurance policy but it is not insurnce. It is gambling because you are trying to predict what your problem is going to be instead of holding onto your money and being able to address any problem.
If you fail to buy medical insurance because you decided to buy the car assuming it is going to be the problem you would have made a huge mistake and that is the comparison I am trying to make.
We have plenty of starters and I think we should save whatever money we have available to address a real problem instead of spending most or all of it on a 5th starter when, in fact, you only have about a 4% chance of that being the area you need to fix. Andy is no longer a guy you could use to replace a 1 or a 2 and, quite frankly, I’m not big on having him be one of my playoff starters.
Getting bashed by a couple of kids isn’t something that gets me too upset.
There aren’t many occaisions where an english major can act tough so you just have to laugh and jab.
i hope you’re not over 18-21 because if you are then you need to find a better way tot ake your aggression out then by making some comments at people on a blog man.
does this mean you are 12-16?
Seems about right
Are you in the same class as King Tommy and the self proclaimed mr important congressman?
no, i am long removed from high school and for that matter college. it can be seen in my ability to not lob ignorant atacks at others and to analye data and then come to an informed decision based on said data as opposed to your grabling and lack of knowledge of the facts:
ie pettitte did not sign a $10 mill deal. he signed a $5 mill deal with incentives for pitching, which if he was sucking, they would not have allowed him to reach unless there was no one else.
ie see above for contracts that make pettitte a BARGAIN at $5 mill + incentives compared to Derek Lowe’s 4/$60, oliver perez’s 3/$36, and john garland’s $8.75 mill guanrateed ciontract.
ie the post above where zs180 or whatever lists the yankees pithcing options and their FACTUAL injuries/struggles/limits where you say he is wrong based on nothing and insult his intelligence for using facts.
and, finally, of all poeple to accuse anyone of not contributing anything of value to this thread as you did below, you should be the last. for just your mere presence and ideas detract from the community and discourse of this thread.
so, for all your personal attacks, your dismissal of fact, and your overall team attitude, i present to you, and you earned it:
O-A-K-T-A-G
you are what this was made for.
Yawn
Dude, why are you so angry? You’re the only one hurling around personal insults.
You don’t know who any of us are. JSB’s point, this whole time, has been that it’s unfair to discount someone’s opinion/argument just because they may be younger than you, and he’s right. But since you seem to disagree with that, you should at least realize there are people out there who are probably older, more intelligent, and better educated than you think. So lay off with the personal attacks and remember that it’s usually a safe bet that you’re not the smartest person in the room.
Learn to read and then comment.
It works so much better that way!
I’m not sure what that comment means. Care to enlighten me?
I’m not here for your education.
I’d have you tommie and jirbil on ignore if it was possible
“I’d have you tommie and jirbil on ignore if it was possible”
Daaaamn, emac! Now that was cold blooded! Please Hammer don’t hurt ‘em! LOL
finally – something funny!
There aren’t many occaisions where an english major can act tough so you just have to laugh and jab.
emac2: 5
Strawman: 0
jesus that poor strawman. its like creed-drago out there
for the love of god where’s the new thread!! throw in the towel RAB!
You don’t need to wait.
You have yet to contribute anything of value to this thread
What “someone’s website” says a player is worth >>>>>>>>>>>>> what emac2 says a player is worth
i would’ve added a few more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
he must be an older fan
/emac2′d
I have never seen anyone so ashamed to be young?
Why does that bother you so much? Adding immaturity doesn’t make you seem any older you know.
well, I, unlike you, care not a person’s age as long as the have well informed opinions even if they are wrong or crazy.
Your’s however, are all three of the above. and while I am not old or young, it is irrelevant to this, or any discussion. but hey, you just keep on lobbing those insults. they suit you.
You need to calm yourself down.
Your poor spelling might embarrass your cohorts and Tommie isn’t always going to be there to help you out.
jsb’s poor spelling >>>>>>>>> emac2′s poor thinking
Adding immaturity doesn’t make you seem any older you know.
It’s certainly not working out well for you.
If we bring back Pettitte and Wang what then? Hughes in the penn? I know you can’t have too much pitching depth but what is the plan really in that case?
AJ, CC, Joba and Pettitte will start obviously – will Wang and Hughes fight it out for the 5th slot? If Wang seems fine do you send Hughes to AAA? Do you go with a 6 man rotation? That doesn’t make sense (except in September but then its too late).
I’m not against signing him but it creates problems for developing Hughes
Wang won’t be back until August, at the earliest.
Deal with the problem then. If CC-AJ-Joba-Hughes-Andy are all rolling when Wang’s ready to return, Wang goes to the pen. He’s lost his spot on the totem pole.
If Wang comes back strong in Audust, a big if, won’t Hughes be hitting his innings limit anyway?
There’s that possibility too: That Wang returns in late August/early September, just in time for us to move to a 6-man rotation down the stretch to keep everyone fresh.
We should consider making this a part of our annual plan. 6 man rotations for September.
i didn’t realise wang was out that long – ok you got me convinced we should probably sign Pettitte, now that i’m onboard the hard part is done, and we only ned Cash and Pettitte’s agent to accept my decision
Wang probably won’t be back until August of ’10, right? Hughes is a starter next year no matter what.
Despite his hot bat. I think Matsui is defintely a goner. Do we bring back Damon or try to resign Abreu? Or go after Holliday, Bay or Figgins? Looks like Austin Jackson is definitely gonna start next season back in Scranton. He still strikes out way too much, and his lack of power is a concern. Outfield is gonna be a very interesting dilemna this offseason for Yanks. As for pitching, I am all for bringing Andy back on a 1 year deal, maybe for 8 mill. Hughes should be a starter next season and hopefully, with a full year of starting under his belt, Joba will be much better adjusted to the rotation.
say no to holliday/bay. there’s no redeeming quality to chone figgins other than his speed. he hasn’t played the outfield in FOREVER.
I don’t see Abreu coming back after the Yankees shafted him. I really liked him, but I expect him to stay with the Angels.
Isn’t Vladimir Guerrero a FA?
Isn’t Vladimir Guerrero a FA?
He is. He’s also a Dominican Hideki Matsui. They’re basically the same player.
Matsui’s OPS is 53 points higher…
But yeah, neither can nor should play in the field. They also don’t have knees.
…apparently you dont need knees to trot around the bases in fenway…i see we keep G’zilla for just those games. he can sit in the dugout for the rest if he wants
Andy is a tough choice, but if he’ll take 5-8 million we should sign him. The Yankees will probably get a better start next season with A-Rod being Healthy, Hughes and Joba will have more experience, CC and AJ will most likely be happy with winning the World Series… so, it leaves Andy as a back end starter.
With a better start to the season, someone like Chad Gaudin can grab a few starts.
We all know CC gets bad starts to the season… so why not start with a 6 man rotation for the first 12 or maybe 18 games? It provides everyone with rest at the beginning of the year to get back to form, and since Hughes is not going to have his Innings Number reached this year, this will help him get Deeper.
Ian Kennedy could be called up for spot start chances when needed if he is healthy and ready.
This team has been extremely lucky not to have Joba, Sabathia, Burnett, or especially Pettitte given his age land on the DL.
I would bring back Pettitte, but you have to at least think about what guys like John Lacky, Rich Harden, Justin Duchscherer could do for the Yankees.
The other thing to do is not go long term and leave that last rotation spot open for a PTBNL in 2011 after resigning Pettitte for 2010. The Yankees have plenty of young prospects in Kennedy, Kontos, McAllister, De La Rosa, Nova, etc. The free agent pitching class for 2011 looks really nice with Halliday, Lee, Beckett, Blanton, and Webb. Could make a super rotation with those 5 guys.
Lackey shouldn’t be in the discussion.
Justin Duchscherer is not an option, because he had a psychological breakdown. http://www.espn.com Playing in a pressure packed environment (Like the Bronx) might make things far worse. He needs to get better before considering, Yanks, Red Sox, etc.
The best option is one year of Andy Petitte until Z-Mac is ready, or until Halliday becomes a free agent.
Januz, did you really just link us to http://www.espn.com in regards to your “Justin Duchscherer is not an option, because he had a psychological breakdown” statement?
Are you serious?
How many years do you like your sprospects to spend in AAA before trusting them with a few starts in the 5 spot?
‘Halliday, Lee, Beckett, Blanton, and Webb.’
One of these things is not like the other.
It’s “Halliday”. The other four are spelled correctly.
Man!
Thank god you are here to help out!
Eight words never spoken to emac2:
“Thank god you are here to help out!”
Oh the crushing blows.
How can I possibly go on?
That’s what I’ve been wondering for like an hour now.
well you could return to the pit from whence you came (lohud)
LOL
How many times have you seen me post on Lohud?
Is your logic limited to making guesses until you get something right?
Is your logic limited to making guesses until you get something right?
Takes one to know one, eh?
Haha. Blanton would still be a nice 3-5 guy. Need to see how Webb come back from injury.
meh, without any knowledge of his statistics or anything i would say pass on blanton. that i smy completely uninformed and ig’nant opinion.
You must be uninformed and ignorant because you’re still in high school and have a thing for farm animals.
/emac2′d
Uh oh…new meme!
so high schoolers are beastialists? beastiality-ites? beastiality-gons?
Only the ones who claim a special knowledge of farm animals that they don’t believe other people have.
enjoy!
you bring him back. you have to believe he’s got two more years in the tank and that his production would be equal to, or not that much different, than a John Lackey or Rich Harden. if not, yes, you spend a little on a quality guy for the mid-to-back and keep spots open for Joba and Phil.
i love Wang. i don’t think the team should be counting on him whatsoever. offer him arbitration, keep him on the 40-man, let him work his way back after the injury. consider him for 2011.
TWSS
Maybe trade for Verlander
Edwin Jackson and Miggy must be included in that deal.
for kei igawa.
How dare you not include IPK and Melky? I thought that was a rule?
Throw in the rights to Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker, and you got a deal.
Re-induct Ty Cobb in the hall of fame as a Yankee
or NO DEAL HOWIE!
Reanimate his corpse. There’s some guys I need to have stabbed.
Eh, they can keep Miggy if they include Porcello. Miggy would have no position to play.
Miggy is the 4th starter. Joba back to the pen.
Hey, hey, hey. Miggy can “play” left field.
He’ll play on the bench and play first when Tex needs a day off. He can also play 3rd when A-rod needs rest too.
and challenge CC for the team’s annual Nathan’s Hot Dog eating contest
This is what I’m talking about!!! keeping that clubhouse loose!
Yeah, Miggy can play leftfield real good, too.
Sincerely,
Manny Ramirez
http://www.theonion.com/conten.....ny_ramirez (safe)
Miggy’s versatile. He can play DH, bench and firstbase.
Hey what do you know, Victor Martinez can do that too!
Yeah, but Miggy can do it well.
http://www.instantrimshot.com
http://www.hiyoooo.com/
Second. Best. Website. Ever.
Is number 1 RAB or SuperTangas?
(That hiyoooo site is f’ng amazing.)
Crap, I forgot about SuperTangas.
Second.Third. Best. Website. Ever.It all depends on the market.
Who will be available and at what cost?
Lackey
Davis
Pavano(I keed)
Hudson depending on his performance down the stretch
Webb If Zona doesn’t pick up the option
Duchsherer
Cliff Lee probably won’t hit the market
Bedards arm no work
Pettitte may be the safest option but I think you have to look at the above guys if available, especially Lackey or a healthy Webb.
I don’t think Lackey would be a good choice considering the money and years it would take. Webb’s health scares me a little bit and would probably be more expensive than Pettitte. I think Andy makes the most sense.
Lackey wants AJ contract, that’s too rich.
Davis, please no, he has worse stuff than Andy, and walks a ton of people
Hudson, word is the Braves will pick up the option
Webb, good chance they pick up the option, if they don’t then chances are he won’t play next year, the option is only 6.5 million or so. If there is any chance that he can pitch, I imagine it’ll get picked up.
Duchscherer, career reliever up to 07, injury in 07, flukey year in 08 then arm got hurt, depression this year, has he ever shown he can stay healthy as a starter?
Cliff Lee-no chance they pass up a 8 million option on Lee
Bedard-80 innings each the last two years, surgery in fall this year, won’t be ready for half of next season probably, mentally weak and gets hurt a lot, can’t be counted on at all.
Totally agree. There is no real real option this year. Makes me even more happy that Cash went out and got the two best starters this year. Either would easily be the best starter this year in FA. Cash +1
Bedard’s got a torn labrum, I don’t think he’ll even be ready for the midway point, if at all next year.
I was just pointing out that you need to consider these options depending on what the market looks like.
Also, Pettitte pitched like shit in the second half last year and had a hard time agreeing to an incentive laden deal. This year, if he continues the way he’s been pitching, I doubt he’ll accept the same deal.
Yeah, I’m sure Yanks will look at all those guys but I just don’t see a better alternative right now.
Let Andy finish the year and evaluate it after end of season. If he pitches well, you reward him with a guaranteed contract next year instead of low salary and a lot of incentives, he would have earned it. As long as it’s a 1 year contract, it’s not a huge deal whether it’s 8 or 10 million, I suspect.
You would sign Lacky because you don’t trust the half dozen in house options for number 5?
You guys must cheat at board games!
I’d sign Lackey because he’s a good pitcher. That said, it depends on his market, as I’ve mentioned several times.
yes, we cheat at board games. this is by far the best deduction yet.
good thing you’re here to help out!!!
Oh wow!
Did you come up with that one yourself?
whoops – I guess not. original material requires a little thought.
original material requires a little thought.
Your feeble attempts at humor on this page disagree with you.
Anyone who is quoted must have something valuable to say.
Don’t bash jdog because he likes my humor.
Anyone who is quoted must have something valuable to say.
Or something dumb to ridicule.
I don’t think this guy is 24. No one that old could such an authentic impression of “a 14 year old on the internet with hurt feelings trying to trade insults with his tormentors” that far removed from the original experience.
Obviously, you bring Andy back.
And I’ve been the greatest Duchscherer champion around here, but depression too? I love the guy, and he’d be my favorite player if he were a Yank. (Imagine having the bowel syndrome AND clinical depression…as well as a job as a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER, one of the highest profile jobs in the country! Brutal.) But he’s too much of a risk; I’d love for Cash to sign Webb to see what happens. High risk, high reward (and unlike previous high risk/high reward signings in the AL East, Webb is young and good).
i havent sifted through all the posts,and this might have been floated, but what about Sheets or Mulder, 1 year “play for the next contract” deal?
Doesnt truly block any prospects, they may not be looking one year but what the hell?