By the Decade: Yankee catchers
ByWith the baseball portion of the ’00s behind us, it’s time to reflect upon the Yankees by decade. On the whole, it was a very successful decade by the Yanks. The team won two World Series and four AL titles. They finished in first all but two years and bookended the 2000s with thrilling championship runs. Over the next few weeks, I’ll be exploring how the team looked by position, and today we start with the catchers.
| Player | G | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | HBP | SH | SF | GDP | BA | OBP | SLG |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| J. Posada | 1186 | 4119 | 1177 | 274 | 6 | 199 | 774 | 648 | 967 | 55 | 0 | 31 | 128 | .286 | .387 | .500 |
| Jose Molina | 173 | 460 | 105 | 26 | 0 | 5 | 38 | 27 | 89 | 7 | 11 | 5 | 16 | .228 | .273 | .317 |
| J. Flaherty | 117 | 355 | 78 | 22 | 0 | 12 | 39 | 14 | 70 | 3 | 9 | 3 | 15 | .220 | .247 | .383 |
| F. Cervelli | 36 | 98 | 28 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 11 | 2 | 14 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 2 | .286 | .286 | .357 |
| Kelly Stinnett | 34 | 78 | 18 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 9 | 5 | 29 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | .231 | .279 | .308 |
| I. Rodriguez | 33 | 92 | 20 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 14 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 6 | .217 | .258 | .315 |
| Chris Turner | 31 | 87 | 21 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 9 | 19 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | .241 | .313 | .310 |
| Wil Nieves | 30 | 70 | 10 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 2 | 11 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 3 | .143 | .160 | .200 |
| Chad Moeller | 28 | 84 | 20 | 5 | 0 | 1 | 9 | 7 | 17 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 2 | .238 | .323 | .333 |
| Sal Fasano | 28 | 48 | 7 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 14 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | .146 | .214 | .292 |
| Todd Greene | 27 | 91 | 19 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 11 | 3 | 20 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | .209 | .242 | .275 |
| Chris Widger | 21 | 64 | 19 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 9 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .297 | .338 | .375 |
| A. Castillo | 15 | 37 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 12 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 2 | .135 | .146 | .216 |
| Joe Oliver | 12 | 36 | 9 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 12 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | .250 | .250 | .361 |
| Kevin Cash | 10 | 26 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | .231 | .250 | .308 |
| D. Navarro | 5 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | .333 | .333 | .333 |
| M. Hernandez | 5 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .333 | .500 | .333 |
| B. Estalella | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .000 | .333 | .000 |
| Jim Leyritz | 2 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | .167 | .167 | .667 |
| C. Stewart | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .000 | .000 | .000 |
| Totals | 1797 | 5767 | 1546 | 360 | 7 | 226 | 929 | 729 | 1306 | 80 | 39 | 43 | 183 | .268 | .354 | .450 |
On the whole, as the above table shows, the 2000s were the decade of Jorge. The borderline Hall of Famer caught two-thirds1 of the Yankees’ games, and he did so with spectacular results. Say what you will about Posada’s current defense, but the man can hit. As a catcher, he put up a .286/.387/.500 and fell just one dinger shy of 200 home runs. The only knock against Jorge are the double plays. He hit into 128 of them over ten years.
After Jorge though, the Yankees see a precipitous drop in backstop production. On the whole, Yankee catchers hit .268/.354/.450, and everyone not named Jorge were pretty bad as a group. Yankee back-up backstops managed just 27 home runs and a combined offensive line of .224/.263/.326 in 1648 at bats.
It’s amazing to look through that list and try to remember some of the names. Chris Stewart made one forgettable appearance for the Yanks when both Jorge Posada and Jose Molina were injured. I do not remember Michel Hernandez’s five games in pinstripes. Wil Nieves was spectacularly awful, and even Ivan Rodriguez was but a shell of his former self in 2008.
For the Yankees, Posada’s success atop this list underscores the importance of having a solid catcher. For two reasons, the team hasn’t been able to find a decent back-up. First, no one wants to play behind someone as good as Jorge. Second, good catchers are very, very hard to find. That’s the driving reason behind my belief that the Yankees shouldn’t move Jesus Montero from behind the plate quite yet, and it’s a driving reason why Baseball America’s Top 10 Yankee prospects list features four catchers. In this day and age, developing a defensively solid catcher who can hit guarantees some modicum of success.
In August of the first year of the decade of the 2010s, Jorge Posada will turn 39. He may stick it out behind the plate, seeing reduced playing time of course, for the next few seasons, but when the next decade ends, he likely won’t be the team’s leader behind the plate. From our vantage point at the end of the decade, we can truly appreciate just how good Posada has been, and when we compare him to everyone else, well, it’s not even close.
Looking at his numbers, I can unequivocally say that Posada is the league’s catcher of the ’00s too. Perhaps Mike Piazza turned in some better offense numbers early on and perhaps Joe Mauer beats him these days. But no one else has sustained this level of play for as long as Jorge did. For the Yankees, behind the plate, it truly has been the decade of Posada.
1 Due to availability of the data and some late-inning replacement situations, the total numbers of games played by position will not add up to the 1620 games the Yankees played from 2000-2009. Numbers are from both Baseball Reference and the Baseball Musings Day-by-Day Database. (Return)
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We already know who the next decade belongs to.
/still believes there’s a chance Jesus sticks
The decade of Jesus or, barring that, Austin Romine.
Yankee fans have such low expectations for their prospects. If only they could all be Jorge Posada.
Jestin Romtero.
That’d be one funky smelling farm system.
I’d be OK with that smell if each of them is equipped with an elite bat and accompanied by Laura Posadas.
They’d save a ton of money on batting gloves, and then they could sign Holliday/Sheets/Bay/Bedard, etc.
Their utilities would be lower too … a lot less flushing would be going on.
they wouldn’t save THAT much money on batting gloves
It’s PJ P, right? Right?!
Signed,
Momma P
Holy crap .887 OPS in the 00′s by a catcher? We Yankees fans were spoiled
Overall mark was .807. But Jorge’s mark was .887. That’s simply nuts.
Yea, that’s why I was so surprised by those 00′s numbers. I knew Jorge was a .800+ OPS catcher but a .887 OPS is, as you said, simply nuts.
Do they have an OPS+ by position (or something comparable)? I would love to see Posada compared to only catchers. Career ops+ of 124 against the rest of the league, I would love to see how much better he has been then his peers as well.
No such luck. Because of variable playing times, OPS+ isn’t really available on that macro of a level. Or at least, not available through non-Elias sites.
Rob Neyer did a piece a few months back when he tried to determine who the best catcher of the 00′s was. Here’s the link to his results:
Player ABs OPS+
Jorge Posada 4897 – 129
Mike Piazza 3670 – 127
Vi. Martinez 3245 – 121
Iv. Rodriguez 4659 – 113
Javy Lopez 3312 – 110
Jason Varitek 4408 – 101
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweets.....-vs-posada
Incredibly spoiled. Posada has been the most underrated Yankee during this run.
+1
+20
Considering all of the Yankee catching prospects, does anyone think it’s worth it to move Jesus off of catcher even if he had the ability to make it? If one of the other guys works out, I’d consider it. I know Jesus offering a potential MVP caliber bat at catcher is extremely valuable, but if his bat is truly Frank Thomas like, does he have more value playing 155 games a year in say LF, or 130-140 games a year at C? I think it’s likely as the catcher still, but if the replacement catcher is one of these prospects who becomes well above average, I think you consider moving Jesus off due to the rest of your roster.
If one of the other prospects is well above average offensively and Jesus is well above average offensively, then you move whichever is the worse defensive catcher. No one knows if that’s going to be Montero or not.
What if one of the others is league average offensively? 100 ops+, which will play well as a catcher, though not elsewhere? Keep Jesus at C and move the other guy? It’ll be a real nice problem to have if it plays out that way.
Depends upon whom Jesus would be displacing in the field.
Worry about that when there is another catching option & Jesus’s bat has reached its potential.
Jesus’ bat isn’t limited by this “potential” word. It’s limitless, he’s the Melvin of hitters.
i would absolutely do that. It depends on how bats play out though. I think if Jesus’s bat becomes what we believe it will, and one of the other catchers becomes a capable MLB bat and plays solid catcher, I think you take Jesus off C. I know I’m in the minority, but I think getting 155 games a year for 15+ years of elite production from one spot in your lineup beats getting 130-140 games a year of elite production that might not only diminish at the end of each year but also might start to fade in 10 years due to wear and tear.
A lot of people forget that jorge posada is a freak of nature, and not a feasible comparison. I think part of the reason why he might not stick at catcher is not just defensive ineptitude, but rather the fact that catching can destroy a player, and DHing can preserve a player for a long time. If our system were bereft of catchers, then I would be more in favor of thinking of him as a long term catching solution, but I think he need only be catcher until another of our bevy of catching prospects shows himself ready and capable of catching and hitting at the major league level. The idea of a new piazza is tantalizing for sure, but long-term it might be better to focus on keeping Montero’s bat in the lineup every single day while still keeping him healthy.
Damn right he’s a borderline HOF catcher. If he manages to swing the bat well for 2 more years you’d think he’ll have enough cred for sure, especially if he gets some more jewelry for his other hand. FWIW, in Neyer’s top 100 of the decade, he says Posada is clearly the top catcher of the aughts and ranks him 15th overall.
I’d like to think the argument that Posada was the most feared catcher of the decade is arbitrary enough, but with enough truthiness to it, to convince old school voters who are on the fence. He’s definitely the most feared player in the league in terms of who you want to shake hands with.
In my mind, he’s a sure-thing Hall of Famer. I belong to the Jonah Keri camp in that debate. I said “borderline” only because not everyone is sold on the idea. But if Jim Rice is in, Posada definitely should be there.
Posada should have a bust in the Hall, and there should be a statue of Jim Rice standing directly behind him, in a tuxedo, dusting the podium that Posada’s bust sits on.
http://static.open.salon.com/f.....856460.gif (SFW)
Heh.
Laura Posada already has a hall of fame bust.
Tip your waitress!
Signed,
Tiger Woods
+36D
definitely a bronzed bust..
Hell yeah. I’ve been having a long running debate over this with my friends, who don’t think he was ever elite enough – I guess they don’t value someone being consistently above league average for a prolonged period of time.
I’m a small-hall guy myself and to me Posada is in easily.
I think if Posada played for another team, he might have been more widely considered as “elite”. But with guys like Jeter, Rivera and A-Rod around you, it’s easy to fly under the radar a bit.
I’m also of the opinion that Jorge should easily be in, for the record.
Using Jim Rice as a standard is pretty dangerous though. a ton of undeserving players would then be enshrined, though I agree that Posada should be. At the very least, no Yankee will wear 20 again
Just being a nitpicky little bitch, but Posada’s ring in ’96 is like Anthony Claggett’s ring this year. Sure he got one, but didn’t really do much to get it.
“He’s definitely the most feared player in the league in terms of who you want to shake hands with.”
Miguel Olivo poops on his hands. True story. I heard through my sister’s boss’s masseuse’s husband’s cousin who is dating Olivo’s sister back in the D.R.
I’m putting it on Twitter as we speak….
Twitter: because people with lives have neither the time nor patience to read more than two sentences.
I stopped reading after the word “time” #toolongwinded
IETC.
Miguel Olivo poops on his hands. True story. I heard through my sister’s boss’s masseuse’s husband’s cousin who is dating Olivo’s sister back in the D.R.
That was unintelligible gibberish. For shame, Mondesi.
As a public service, I’ll translate that into plain English so we can all understand it.
—————-
miguel olivo poops on his hands true story i herd through my sisters boss masuse huzband cuzzin thats datin olivo sister in DR its all over teh radio now
Ha, much better, thanks.
School is for suckers.
Junot Diaz?!
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-721838
IWUDT! (I’m a fan of his work.)
I started Oscar Wao but I didn’t really commit to reading it… Which meant that I very slowly made my way through a few chapters then lost interest, probably because of how slowly I was moving through it, and put it down. I’ll give it another go sometime soon, I’ve heard good things.
It’s probably a combination of you moving slowly and the book gathering steam slowly. Once you get halfway through, it really speeds through. But the pace I found a bit off-putting, initially. But it’s definitely worth sticking through.
Check out Drown, it’s very accessible and an enjoyable read, though it doesn’t have nearly the depth of Oscar Wao.
Too perfect.
I know, I scared myself a little.
Is 128 double plays that bad for a slow-footed catcher? Jeter hit into over 160 in the same time frame.
Yeah, but Jeter did it intentionally.
He’s a big fan of the DP.
He even named his foundation after the DP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxEmY2tpmNM (safe-ish)
Actually, it’s not that bad at all. Take a look at the list of all players who played at least 50 percent at catcher sorted by GIDP right here. Posada is tied for fourth but had the most PAs of everyone ahead of him. He seems to lead in the all-important GIDP/PA category. (Although I don’t know about his GIDP efficiency rates. Maybe he had fewer opportunities with runners on first and less than two out than the other guys did.)
I actually think its amazing that he didn’t hit into more.
Imagine if Jorge could hit breaking balls better…
(If you can’t tell, I’m joking. Jorge has been more than good anyway)
Haven’t spent too much effort to rank Jorge in the all-time Yankee catchers, but off the top of my head, it looks like:
1. Berra
2. Dickey
3. Posada
4. Munson
5. Howard
And how about all-time Yankee switch-hitters:
1. Mantle
2. Bernie
3. Posada
4. Roy White
I’m always compiling all-time Yankee lists. I like the perspective. Maybe because I’m old.
All-time best Yankee switch hitters:
1. Melky
2. Ruben Sierra
3. Fernando Seguignol
4. Wayne Tolleson
5(tie). Mantle
5(tie). Butch Wynegar
0. Melvin
Matt Nokes is so offended by your lists.
Matt Nokes w/ NYY: .249/.304/.437/.741
Source: Stat site
Yeah. I was joking. Matt Nokes was not good.
I thought you were. But since I didnt know about his stats, I decided to look at them (and post them for some reason).
Listen. One of my most vivid memories of Yankee Stadium is watching Matt Nokes scorch one over the short porch. There will be no Matt Nokes bashing here.
Barry bashing, however, is always welcome.
FACT: Tiger Woods has boned a lot of skanks. One skank he won’t bone, however, is Matt Nokes’s sister.
He respects Matt far too much. FACT.
/Pseudo Tseng’d
OK then. Matt Nokes w/ NYY 1994:
291/.329/.595/.924
(though in only 85 PA)
Maybe because I’m old.
No peeking on your way to the death panels.
Signed,
Christopher Buckley Obamagonnakillyourgranny
In terms of OPS+ (with >500 games and 50% at catcher), you’re list is right on:
http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/H2cGs
Notice the big drop off in games played after the 5 greats.
I assume the ‘total’ at the bottom is actually Montero’s rookie year numbers?
i actually could see the .268/.354 part being true. not so sure on the 226 hrs though
What a list of bums man, I mean i know Jorge was the man for the decade, so not much chance for anyone else to really play, but I forget some of these guys…
Welcome to the horrible, horrible world of backup catchers.
For a catcher, Jorge sure hit a lot of doubles (OK, I-Rod is ahead of him).
The one backup (until Cervelli) I never felt nervous about was John Flaherty. I think he has a good future ahead (MGR or coach) if he ever gets tired of his YES gig.
In a related area, I recall that at one point in the 50s (’58 or ’59) every AL team but one had a catcher traded from the Yanks’ farm system, including at least two all-stars (Lollar and Triandos). This was then considered the ultimate compliment to Yogi, whom nobody but Time could budge. Anything similar with player movement behind Jorge?
Posada is absolutely a HOFer. People just don’t see it because he has spent his career as a yankee in the shadows of jeter, a-rod, bernie, etc, and as a catcher in the shadows of Piazza then Pudge then Mauer. However, 15 years of 124 OPS+ from a catcher who led pitching staffs to 5 (and counting) WS championships and playoffs in all but one of his seasons is crazy. He still ranks as one of the best hitting catchers ever
For what it’s worth…
Prime 9 had the top catchers of all time… Posada didn’t make the list.
Off the top of my head, the guys on the list were:
Bench
Berra
Piazza
Dickey
Cochrane
Gabby Hartnett
Fisk (i think)
Don’t recall who else made it.
Well I-Rod isn’t on that list either (unless you forgot him), so it sounds like the list is only retired players.
Not to rain on Jorge’s parade but in the name of objectivity it needs to be noted that he is also the worse base runner of the 00′s. Nobody has made more bone headed base running decisions that Jorge. Just ask Robinson Cano.
Thanks for supporting your claim with one single recent memory. I guess you say that Jorge is the worst base runner of the 00′s because you’ve seen it with your own eyes?
Its not like catchers are particularly known for their base running abilities. Now getting on base in the first place, that’s what Jorge is good at.
I am assumed everybody on this board watches Yankee games so the statement did not need documentation. It is also the type of weakness that doesn’t come out in statistics.
You’re absolutely right. It’s also the type of weakness that’s rather benign and negligible.
Don’t know since it isn’t quantifiable….
No. Any time you make a grand statement, like someone is the worst of something, we need some kind of evidence. Your memory is not valid. The human memory is not a reliable source of information.
Whatever…anyone who has watched a significant quantity of Yankee games and understands baseball knows what I am referring to.
No one’s saying that Jorge’s a good baserunner. But to say he’s the worst with no evidence. Weak. Even weaker is the “anyone who understands baseball knows what I’m saying” argument.
You made a statement. You have no evidence to back it up. I don’t find that acceptable, nor do the majority of people here. That kind of argument might work on some people, but not people who make arguments with veracity.
Everybody can make up their own mind based on what they have observed. I have stated my opinion that Jorge Posada is the worse base runner of this decade and stand by it. Base running judgment is like class it can’t be quantified but a lack of it is evident. I am confident astute observers of baseball will agree with me.
Baserunning can and has been quantified. And yeah, it has Jorge as bad. The worst on the 09 Yanks. But that doens’t mean he was the worst of the decade.
Also: “Everybody can make up their own mind based on what they have observed.” That does not, however, mean you are correct.
There was the ball he hit in the gap this year in the World Series that he then tried to stretch into a double. That was really awful haha.
Though I maintain that he simply knew his RBI had given Mo a sufficient enough lead and decided to forfeit the out so we could get to bed a little sooner.
Yea, but that really shouldn’t be factored (or at least should not play a significant part) into his HOF consideration.
Speaking of best of the decade:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4747688
Crasnick says Mo is the Cy Young of the aughts.
As much as I want him to be, I think I have to respectfully disagree.
Roy Halladay, Johan Santana, Mike Mussina (even with only 9 years put in), and Randy Johnson, off of the top of my head, were more valuable. I’m sure there are many others.
Mo is great for a narrative, and his post season numbers need to count for something – they’re amazing and substantial – but I just can’t say the best pitcher of the past 10 years was a closer. I just can’t. I can only imagine WAR and other stats support my claim (at work, don’t have the time to check for sure)
Damn, beat me to it lol
:-p
Mo is the greatest closer. Greatest closer of any given year, greatest closer of each decade he pitched in, greatest closer of all time.
That’s a great honor.
Many people want him to be more than that. Those people have their heart in the right place. They’re all wrong. All of them. Every single time.
You know who Mariano Rivera is? He’s Jan Stenerud. The greatest kicker ever. An amazing player. Surefire, first ballot Hall of Famer. But not one of the very, very best players ever. Just the very best player at the small specialized role that he is tasked with doing.
Meh. I think being a closer is a little more respectable than being a kicker…
Especially being a closer of Mariano’s capacity…for as long as he’s been doing it.
That’s because we’ve created years and years of narrative lionizing closers so that they’re now praised and valued more than their actual worth is, and we’ve done the exact opposite for kickers, marginalized and marginalized them with narratives where they’re disrespected.
But, they’re quite similar.
Mariano Rivera = Adam Vinatieri (except he never started sucking with age)
You could potentially weigh Vinateri higher though because he owns a skill that few others do, Mo doesn’t. CC would be an all time great closer, would Tom Brady be an all time great kicker? We don’t truly know, but doubtful.
Ok, here’s a semi-hypothetical situation.
You are tied up and held at gun point in the 3rd row behind home plate.
The guy holding the gun let’s you chose one pitcher to throw to one batter. If the batter reaches first base safely, he shoots you.
Who do you choose?
What would you call the award given to the pitcher who you choose, ya know, assuming he saves your life.
What would you call the award given to the pitcher who you choose, ya know, assuming he saves your life.
Here’s what I’d call that award:
Not the Cy Young
That’s an odd name for an award. But you’re right, and I don’t think Rivera deserves the CY Young or the “Pitcher of an arbitrary 10 year period awward”. Just interested to know who you would pick to get one batter out under extreme pressure.
Can I pick Bob Gibson circa 1968?
Speaking of “By the Decade”, Jerry Crasnick writes a nice piece on his Cy Young of the Decade…fittingly, as he even says, it’s the man who closed the decade as well.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4747688
Ahem…
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4747688
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-721923
Sigh. Meant to copy and paste that.
Sarcasm fail.
LOL. he he :-p
Yankees fans have really been spoiled by his production and I have always been a huge Jorge fan. Having said that (h/t Curb), does anybody know if he has ever been linked to any type of PED allegations?
I don’t remember hearing anything about PEDs related to him and I guess I’m a little surprised that there hasn’t been any mention of it that I know of. Given the years he excelled in, his age now and his continued power and production, it’s a little weird that no one has cast any doubt on his legitimacy.
I am by no means anti-Jorge or his case for the Hall, but it seems like an interesting question to raise when we see the way things are shaking out for Pudge now and maybe Jorge down the line.
Pee enhanced digits?
Partner Endowed D-Cups?
I remember Widger fondly enough, but if you had asked me what catcher of the past decade had hit .297 for us, he would not have been on my short list. Or my medium-length list.
[...] afternoon, I launched our decade retrospective of the Yankees in the ’00s with a look at the catchers. Today, we continue with another position held by one player over ten seasons. That player is, of [...]
fangraphs hints that Posada might be a latino clone of Carlton Fisk.
http://www.fangraphs.com/compa.....;type=full
[...] continues today with a look at first base. After talking about the decade of Derek yesterday and Jorge’s time behind the dish on Wednesday. Today, we have an actual [...]
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