Updated: Did Pettitte reject Yanks’ first offer?
ByUpdate (11:54 a.m.): Despite earlier reports to the contrary, Mark Feinsand says that the Yankees have not yet made an offer to Andy Pettitte. Indications are that the team will make him a one-year offer some time today in excess of the $10.5 million he earned in 2009. “They don’t intend to low-ball him,” Feinsand’s industry source said.
Update (7:22am): Buster Olney says that Pettitte has decided to pitch in 2010, and of course his preference is the boys in the Bronx.
7:12am: Via Joel Sherman, Andy Pettitte has rejected the Yanks’ first offer, a one year deal believed to be worth about $10M. He’s the only player the Yanks have made an offer to since the end of the World Series. Sherman basically says the deal will get done at some point, and the Yankees believe Pettitte wants to return next year. After incentives, Pettitte pulled in about $10.5M in 2009, though it’s not clear if this new proposal contained any such escalators. He’s certainly earned a raise over his $5.5M base salary. Sherman also mentions that the Yanks have told the Blue Jays to stay in touch about Roy Halladay, though no proposals have been made.
Tweet
Yes, I wonder if it had any incentives in the offer. I suspect that it did which means the base salary was much lower than 10M. I expect Pettitte to be signed for around 12M. I doubt he’s interested in any incentives so Cashman has his work cut out for him with the Hendricks Brothers.
Andy was “worth” $15 million last year. I think after last year’s deal, he’s going to want closer to his projected value. It’s unfortunate because although he was very healthy in 2009, he’s not getting any younger. Cash tried to hedge last year by giving him a base + incentives deal, but Andy played as well as he could possibly be expected to and now wants to be paid.
Can’t say I blame him. $12-15 million on Andy will certainly limit spending elsewhere that’s for sure.
I think my “limit” might be 13M.
If Andy accepts 13M or less, he gets the deal. If he demands more, I might just tell him no and move on to Ben Sheets, who represents a higher risk (but also a higher reward) and probably a more palatable contract than Andy at an AAV north of 13M.
JMHO.
It always “seemed” to me as if Pettitte is mistreated by the Yankees when it comes to contract negotiations. Not to say that it wasn’t/isn’t the right decision on the Yankees part, but I’ve just noticed through our past dealings with Pettitte that we are always trying to low ball him and are more willing to give above market value for other team’s free agents.
With that said, 13 mil is alot of money for a Pettitte type of pitcher in this market, and as much as he deserves more for what he did for us last year, the smart move is to give contracts based on your expectations of what the player will provide you as opposed to what he has previously provided you. Then again that sort of thinking will always benefit the team (at the time of the signing) and not the player.
With that said, 13 mil is alot of money for a Pettitte type of pitcher in this market, and as much as he deserves more for what he did for us last year, the smart move is to give contracts based on your expectations of what the player will provide you as opposed to what he has previously provided you.
I agree.
I think Pettitte is eminently capable of giving us at least 13M worth of pitching value in 2010. That 13M one year deal wouldn’t be a contract for past performance, it’s for present performance. He’s worth that much money, today, for what he can do right now.
For some reason, I feel a sense of pride when TSJC agrees with my assessment. Does that give me Ridiculous Upside by association?
Just send me $29.95 plus shipping and handling, and I’ll mail you your “tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non-Sequitur Jones Agreed With My Assessment and Validated My Argument” certificate.
It’s 8′x10′, matte. Glossy is extra, as is the frame, glass, and signature.
No fat chicks.
No fat chicks
word… no offense to fat chicks and all, but I’m allergic. A legitimate health reason.
I agree that 13M is perhaps the limit for Pettitte. Also, the amount of money might not be the hangup, but the amount of incentives versus base salary. IMO, if Cashman offers 9-10M base with 2-3M in incentives, a deal gets done.
I don’t see Andy making it through 2010 off the DL. ~10M tops then go elsewhere. Getting up to 13M-15M.. You could get Sheets+Wang (both of whom I think would be better than 38 year old Pettitte) and still have plenty left.
You don’t even know if Wang is going to pitch this year yet you say Pettitte is going on the DL this year. I like Sheets too, but he’s a big question mark too without seeing his medical records.
Say what you will, I’ve given my reasons to be leery of Pettitte. A combo of Sheets+Wang>Pettitte in my opinion. No way I allocate upwards of 15M to Pettitte, especially with the intent to lower payroll.
Andy Pettitte: 5 consecutive seasons of 194+ IP (topping out at 222 IP in 2005)
Ben Sheets: Has ONE season of 198.1 IP and the rest are under 142 IP…including not pitching AT ALL in 2009.
Chein-Ming Wang: 95 IP in 2008, 42 IP in 2009. Bill James predicts 35 IP in 2010.
But themgmt isn’t talking about the past, he can see into the future……
While I want Andy back you can’t just give him 16 million. I wouldn’t go much higher. If Andy really just wants to pitch for the Yanks he should be able to come up with something fair. Fair probably is 12 million or so.
Personally wouldn’t go higher than $12M for Andy. And I can’t see how he could turn that down, if indeed he wants to play next year. Where else is he going to get that kind of money?
The Astros aren’t interested in him whatsoever. And why would he be interested in playing for one of the worst teams in baseball?
He’ll be a Yankee.
Yup, and even if they were interested in him, Jose Valverde may be about to unexpectedly accept arbitration, putting the Astros in a $10M hole. They’d have no $ to sign Pettitte.
Andy knows we need him more than he needs us. He’s playing his cards the right way. We don’t have to like it…as it will kill our “budget” for this year…but he’s doing what he should be doing. He pitched quite well for us last year…but after nearly 200 IP in nearly 5 years in a row…now at like 38 years old…it’s going to be tough to assume he’ll continue at this age…but I guess you ask yourself the difference between doing it at 37 and doing it at 38…
Yeash, he may have us over a barrel, but I some point you tell him he’s being too greedy and you walk away right? For me, that’s at $12M, $13M tops.
I don’t even think he has us over a barrel.
We want Andy, because he’s less risky than several alternatives. But, there are SEVERAL alternatives. It’s not like the LF situation, where it’s just Damon-Holliday-Cameron and then nothing but horrible, horrible guys far beneath them.
If Andy gets greedy, he can be replaced by Sheets, or Harden, or Lackey, or Wolf, or Pinero, or J-Douche. There’s more and more palatable fallback plans if Andy plays hardball.
I still want Andy more than all those fallbacks, by a good margin, but there are other ways to sign the 5th guy of our 5 man rotation.
but is he our #5. still think he’s our #3 until the kids prove us otherwise
I wasn’t really saying he was our #5 starter, just saying we already have 4 of the 5 rotation spots locked in.
Sorry for confusion.
We already have two #5 guys in Joba and Hughes right now…we would need a legit #3 if Pettitte doesn’t come back…and there is much less alternatives when considering that.
Sheets, Harden, and Lackey would all be excellent #3′s.
The others, not so much, sure. I’m just saying, Pettitte has SOME leverage, but not ALL the leverage like people are saying.
lackey, yes. the others, if they’re healthy, but you already knew that
I agree. Nobody has full leverage here. There are other options…but I think everybody on the Yankees would strongly prefer Pettitte over them (like you said)…and Pettitte knows it.
That being said, say Bradley is flipped for Burrell…where the hell does Cameron play??
And what else would they move Bradley for if they weren’t going to get a OF in return?
Pettitte is signing with the yankees for around 12-13 mil. He’s just trying to squeeze as much juice out of the orange as he can, and you cant blame him. He definitely deserves some form of a raise over last years salary. Even in this crappy economy, we are the Yankees and it’s tough to feint broke with the money they are taking in. That is the crux of being the Yankees, there is no such thing as a home team discount.
I think the world of Andy. Yet, is he going to be healthy the entire 2010, dont think so. Why not give the money to Doc(16m)?
Give the Jays Jackson AAA, Wang, Ian, and some unknown…..
Andy is on the precipice of serious Hall of Fame consideration. If he gets over 250+ wins (at least 21 more), finishes with 100+ wins more than losses (needs to be at least +6 the rest of his career) and adds a few more post-season wins he would seem to have a legit shot especially once a contemporary like Smoltz gets in. The opportunity to have the chance to get there means pitching another 2 years. How about both sides throwing the dice a little and do a 2 year deal at $20MM?
especially once a contemporary like Smoltz gets in
John Smoltz postseason stats are head and shoulders above Andy Pettitte’s. I agree that Andy has a shot at the HOF…but I don’t think comparing him to John Smoltz will do anything but maybe even perhaps hurt his chances…if anything at all…
No question Smoltz’s post-season numbers are as good as they get this side of Mo but you are undervaluating Andy’s post-season numbers especially if you add a few more wins. Smoltz is probably done so he will finish at 213-155 and 3 years worth of significant save numbers but only one WS ring compared to Andy’s 5 rings and counting and 100+ wins over losses sort of evens out things a bit. Plus the game 5 win in 96 series over Smoltz gives Andy some mano a mano rights. Not saying Andy should get in before Smoltz or that he was better than Smoltz but just that once Smoltz gets in Andy shouldn’t be that far behind if he pitches another 2 years at the same level he pitched last year.
if he pitches another 2 years at the same level he pitched last year.
Without the aid of PEDs, I feel like that is a fairly large “if”.
But you do realize you’re citing wins and rings for Andy’s Hall qualifications? Not exactly the strongest ways to argue for him. I love Andy, but I think he is destined for the Hall of Very Good.
For years the argument for why Puckett got in the HOF and Mattingly didn’t, despite similar in season stats, was that Puckett had 2 rings and played well in the post-season. I’d like to see that argument break in a Yankee’s favor one day!
I think the argument for Puckett should have been that he was a better player. He put up similar numbers while playing a harder position.
I don’t think Puckett should have been the slam dunk that he became. Lots of guys have their careers cut short because of injuries. His was an illness in his eyes, but should it be a special case? I don’t think so.
He played for the New York Yankees for all but 2 seasons of his long career. While the 5 rings will boost his chances…it will also take away a lot of the help any “Wins” would have given him. IMO anyway.
I wouldn’t give him 2 years, but if that’s what it’d take, I wouldn’t offer $10M per. Would have to be in the $16-$18M range.
I think him and his family would rather have 5 extra mill than this whole “legacy” thing people talk about.
Dont Yankees have all the leverage once again? He wants to pitch for the Yankees, and he wouldnt get 10m from the Astros (assuming that’s the only other team he’d join).
Well, he could just retire if he doesn’t get his “magic” number
he’d walk away from 10m because its not 12-13m after banking 118m for his career? dont see it happening. its just negotiations, always decline the first offer.
I hear you, but again we’re talking about a 37-year old guy with a family and 5 rings already. Not much else to pitch for (and I don’t think he’s making the Hall unless he goes another 3-4 years). Could just say it’s not worth it if he doesn’t get what he thinks he deserves.
I dont buy it until it actually happens. Walking away from 10m because its not 12-13m is easier said than done.
Just give him the 13 mil that he’s probably looking for so you can move on to other business.
Although I didnt agree with it, I could understand them low balling him last year. There is no reason to do the same this year.
and if he wants, say $15M?
You simply don’t give it to him.
That’s what I was hoping you’d say
It would really depend on the circumstances. You’d have to see how the pitching market developed. I’m a huge Pettitte supporter. I’d rather overpay him by a couple mil than overpay Damon.
$15M is probably the high end of what I’d give Pettite.
What do you care if they give him 15 or 13 mil???
Does it really matter?
Do you really think they wouldnt be able to add people because of that??
MULTIPLE INTERROBANGS!?!??!?!??!??!???!?!?
Good Idea. Give him what he asks for so you can have 3M less to spend on your other business which is so labor intensive that you can’t do it at the same time you negotiate with Pettitte.
It’s going to happen. The floor is now $10 million and few people can walk away from that.
one with a family and 5 rings just might
Coming back and getting a 6th ring and at least 11 more regular season wins (bumping him over 240 career) might make him a Hall of Famer… that’s a nice counterargument.
yeah, but like i said somewhere else in this post, personally think he’ll need upwards of 260 Ws (i.e., at least 3 more seasons) to garner serious consideration.
With Andy’s less than dominant rate stats, his admitted PED use, and being short of 300 wins, I really doubt the BBRAA would vote him in.
BUT the 6th ring is obviously a very tempting reason to come back…..
One of these days the floodgates are bound to open and these PED guys will be voted in. Hell, there is no doubt in my mind that there are several former PED users in the HOF already.
“Hell, there is no doubt in my mind that there are several former PED users in the HOF already.”
how could you even think that
I don’t have a problem with PED users getting in the Hall. I believe in judging the players based on their era. It is impossible to say with 100% certainty who used and who didn’t.
Eventually there will come a day when the BBRAA will vote them in, but I’m not sure Pettite will still be on the ballot when that happens.
Ugh, here we go again.
Question: why are the Andy Pettitte negotiations always so public?
how is that different than every other player?
It’s different. It’s always different with Pettitte. It’s a fucking soap opera.
it gives writers and bloggers something to discuss. be grateful that the whole process is as transparent as it is.
Writers have nothing else to write about. It’s apparently huige news that a player rejected a teams first offer. Like a first offer anywhere is ever taken.
my wife said yes the first time i asked…
Question: why are the Andy Pettitte negotiations always so public?
Because Pettitte is an idiot and speaks his heart to the press. He manages to say something stupid early in the offseason that kills his negotiating leverage (usually: “It’s Yankees or retirement for me”), then his agents have to spend the rest of the offseason trying to find ways to get him some leverage in the negotiations.
I see no problem with offering Andy $10 million to start. If he takes it, great. If he wants more than $12-$13 million, tell him thanks for the memories. No point though in offering him the $12 mill from the start, if by some chance he’ll take $10.
Actually, there is a reason to just offer him the 12 or 13 mil that he probably wants. If you want him back, and he wants to come back, you should just get the deal done. It’s one less thing the team would need to worry about in the coming weeks.
That’s a horrible negotiation tactic
I disagree. If you offer him 12 or 13 right off the bat, but he would accept 10 or 11, you are bidding against yourself. The SF Giants did that for years and that got them one WS run (not even victorious) and draft picks in the top 15. 10 mil isn’t that far away from 12 or 13, so it’s not like you’re offering something obsurdly low, like 4-5.
he made 10.5 mil last yr. Who in their right mind would think that he would take less this yr?
Again, this isnt a normal negotiation type situation. The player only wants to play for your team. That generally give the team leverage…however, the team really needs the player to come back.
In these situtations you just make a fair offer and get the deal done. If he doest accept 12 – 13 mil, then you start looking at other options.
“In these situtations you just make a fair offer and get the deal done. If he doest accept 12 – 13 mil, then you start looking at other options.”
10m is a fair offer regardless of what he made last year- all guys in their late 30s are required to take paycuts.
Considering Yankees want to cut payroll, regardless by how much, giving a guy an extra 2-3m to get a deal done quickly doesnt make any sense, and is just bad business, especially when his options are Yanks or retire.
We disagree. It’s not a big deal.
We disagree. It’s not a big deal.
Only one way to settle this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1RDwOUfSe4 (safe)
he made 10.5 mil last yr. Who in their right mind would think that he would take less this yr?
Presumably the $10m offer would be guaranteed money. Last year was only guaranteed something in the $5m range. The vastly higher guarantee changes things.
Of course, Pettitte turned down $10m guaranteed last year and ended up accepting the incentive based offer, so, who knows where his preferences lie.
with the yanks not offering pettitte arbitration, doesn’t that signify that they have a # in mind for him that they’re just not willing to go over? if there wasn’t, why not offer arbitration and let the arbitrator give andy his $12M-$13M. maybe the yanks thought that was too high and really don’t want to go much above $10M.
Let’s say Andy comes back for another year and puts this up in 2010:
32 starts, 200 IP, 16-10, 150 K, 4.00 ERA
If he could pull that off (and it seems doable, IMO), he’d be at these career numbers:
245-145 (.629), 3126 IP, 2300 K, just below 4.00 ERA, 115-ish ERA+, six rings
If Jack Morris can get significant (although not quite enough) HoF love with career numbers of:
254-186 (.577), 3824 IP, 2478 K, 3.90 ERA, 105 ERA+, 3 and a half rings (he was on the ’93 Jays, but not on the playoff roster)
… then I bet Andy could make the hall with his career numbers. Voters like those things.
The HGH stuff will kill him.
I doubt it.
He’s already been “forgiven” by the MSM/general public in a way that none of the other PED guys ever were.
Shit, when other people have PED scandals, I constantly hear/read mediots saying that they should handle it as forthrightly and honestly as Andy Pettitte did. (Which doesn’t make sense, but, whatevs.)
Andy’s liked. The other ‘cheaters’ aren’t.
Andy is the model for all athletes (listening Rocket and Tiger?) regarding how to handle getting caught doing something you shouldn’t be doing. Precisely because of the way he handled it Andy (if anyone does) will get the benefit of the doubt from the HOF voters. Also, I agree with TSJC as to comp between Andy and Morris. Also a comparison between Andy vs Schilling is probably a valid and favorable one to Andy as well (Schilling seems to be a certain HOF despite how some of us Yankee fans view him).
Curt Schilling: ERA+ of 127, 3116 Ks for 3261 innings, 3.46 career ERA, 1 bloody sock
Andy Pettite: ERA+ of 115, 2150 Ks for 2926 innings, 3.91 career ERA, 0 bloody socks
As much as I can’t STAND Schilling, compared to Andy he’s a definite HOFer. Morris is an apt comparison though. I think though that Morris should be in the Hall of Very Good as well. But if he gets in, then there is a definite argument for Andy….
according to b-r, mussina is actually pettitte’s most similar pitcher; every age since 34
Nice, I had that page open and hadn’t scrolled to the bottom!
It is a mix of HOFers and HO Very Gooders. So I’m sure there will be debate. If the Yankees fire up their propaganda bangwagon like the Red Sox did for Jim Rice, there may be a chance.
I don’t know if the HGH stuff will. I think the press is tiring of PED talk in general, and everyone seems to be slowly realizing that HGH turned out to be snake oil. You’ll now occasionally get a newspaper article that mentions the medical research showing HGH to be detrimental to your health with no benefits.
I’m guessing HGH will only affect Pettitte’s HOF candidacy if voters end up completely torn on which way to go. And the later he retires, the less of an issue it will be.
but voters don’t like ERAs hovering around 4. and most of them don’t even know what ERA+ is
And yet, Jack Morris’s HoF vote percentages are as follows:
Hall of Fame Voting
Year Election Votes Pct
2000 BBWAA 111 22.2%
2001 BBWAA 101 19.6%
2002 BBWAA 97 20.6%
2003 BBWAA 113 22.8%
2004 BBWAA 133 26.3%
2005 BBWAA 172 33.3%
2006 BBWAA 214 41.2%
2007 BBWAA 202 37.1%
2008 BBWAA 233 42.9%
2009 BBWAA 237 44.0%
that’s why he needs to finish with more Ws than morris
But he’s already going to finish with far fewer Ls than Morris, and almost identical strikeout totals despite far fewer IP totals.
Oh, and Rings. RINGS. Corky Simpson and the other neanderthals love rings.
If they arent voting for any player who is even remotely attached to ped’s he doesnt stand a chance at it.
but he doesn’t have that 10 innings WS win that voters seem to never forget
I love that stupid 10 innings crap. Jim “King” Leyritz should then be in the Hall for all of his clutch post-season hits!
Or Don Larsen with that perfect game?
and brian doyle for his (hope i’m not dating myself)
With real Yankee fans, everyone should know who brian doyle is, if they are 15 (should be in class right now), or 85 (probably afraid of the computer).
But Andy doesn’t pitch to the score like Morris did! He just gives up hits and runs when his team is ahead because he isn’t as good as Morris.
We all love Andy, but we are budget minded these days.
Andy will be 38.
He give you lots of innings.
But his ERA+ in ’08/’09 was 98 and 103.
That’s a 2 year average of AVERAGE.
What is an Average pitcher who eats innings worth???
between $10M-$12M
What is an Average pitcher who eats innings worth???
About $15M. That’s what he was worth (per Fangraphs) last year.
I don’t personally think that fangraphs player values directly translate to what they are worth on the open market. I can’t take these numbers at face value unless I’m sure how they are calculated, and then even if I did, I would have to agree with how value is assigned for individual stats. They are good metrics to allow the normal baseball fan to compare one player to another, but I highly doubt a baseball executive would/should use these values when handing out player contracts.
As I’ve said before (a long time ago). A player is only worth what somebody will pay for them. It’s all perceived value. You’re right, Fangraphs doesn’t set the table for a player on the open market…but it’s a players WAR converted to a dollar scale based on a possibility of what they could get in free agency…according to that WAR.
But just like anything else. If somebody isn’t willing to give you that much…than you’re, quite simply, not worth that much. Again, you’re only worth what somebody is willing to pay for you.
The numbers he produced were in the AL East. That makes his avg numbers above average.
I would say 13$ mil is the limit, this frustrates me even though I know it’s business.
No chance the Yanks go the Javy Vazquez route again right?
No.
No trades this offseason. Not a smart business model.
I wouldn’t say NO trades. I would say no blockbuster trades. Maybe a 3 for 1 for a veteran bench/depth guy like the Swisher trade last season.
But you’re right, trading for players when they could just sign FA’s for a few mill more is a terrible business model for the Yanks
Sure.
Compromise:
No trades, other than those rare clear-space-buy-low swindle deals like Swisher that only happen once in a blue moon and are totally below the radar and unpredictable.
Pettitte isn’t going to make 15 million…
Pettitte should just ask for 12 million+incentives?
Yankees should also try and get Mike Cameron:)
I hope the Feinsand rumor is true. Be great to hear this week that Andy is wrapped up.
Nice to see that Sherman is still batting .000 in the “accurate rumor” department this winter.
Really. I’m upset that I let myself believe Sherman’s info earlier.
So is the most reasonable estimate something like 1 yr / $12 mm? That’s not a lowball offer, but i wonder how much room there is for negotiation. I doubt the brass is willing to go much beyond that amount.
Yes, I think so. maybe a 500k kicker for 190 innings and another for 200. That would bring total possible value up to 13 mil.
If I’m Pettitte, I want what AJ makes per year. There is no reason for the Yanks to pay Pettitte less for one year than AJ makes per year for his 5 year deal. Just my opinion.
The Yanks probably want Pettitte for less, but if I’m Pettitte, I aim for AJ per year dollars.
One reason: he’s older.
Yea, but the one year aspect makes that almost moot. And Pettitte’s projected production for next year is far more predictable than AJ’s for the next five years (as of last off season) or for the next four years as of now.
AJ was offered 16 mil/year by another team. Pettitte won’t be. No need to negotiate against themselves.
My original comment was what I would want and what I feel I deserve from the Yanks if I was Pettitte.
If I was the Yanks, I would clearly want to pay him less and know I could get him for less because he only wants to pitch for the Yanks. If he was willing to go to the highest bidder and play the game Boras style, he would get more.
Pettitte is obviously a must sign. I doubt there is much opposition to signing Pettitte to a one year, under 15 million dollar deal.
Here we gooooooo AGAIN!!!,w/Andy!!!,I believe the year after last the Yankees offered him 10 million,and he REJECTED IT!!!,then he winds up signing for ALOT less,and signs w/the Yankees for 1 yr!!!,at less than 10 million!!!???.What the hell is his problem????,he’s not going to get a LONG TERM contract w/anybody!!!!,he says he’s a TRUE YANKEE?????????????,then SHOW us you are a real yankees!!!man!!!,and stop complaining about the MONEY!!!,what would have Ron Guidry???,been worth in this day & age????,alot more than Andy Pettite!!!,be great-ful Andy that you make that kind of MONEY!!!,take the 10 million and shut-up!!!.Didn’t your parents teach you ANY respect about being a real person growing up??,IF that we me I’d be great-full for 10million dollars,I’ll NEVER make that in my ENTIRE life!!!.You cannnot live on 10 million dollars??????????????????????????????????,plus all of those OTHER years you played??for this team:the New York Yankees!!,you mean to tell me you have NO MONEY left in your bank account???,lets be really!!!ok Andy,take the 10 million and play one more year then RETIRE!!!
Zing!
Numbers wise, Randy Wolf was better than Pettitte, but obviously u’d rather have Andy because he’d pitched in the AL East, not NL West. But still, he’s closer to Randy Wolf than AJ Burnett. I say one year 12 Mil, take it.
we want 10, he wants 15, give him 10 + 5 in incentives…clearly andy can see the value in that, and the organization has hedged some risk against an aging player…