Open Thread: Winter Meetings Day Four

December 8, 2011 by Mike Axisa 119 Comments

adam miller — Adam Miller appears to be on the way. (AP Photo | John Raoux)

Wow, so pretty crazy day, huh? It all started off in the wee hours of the morning when we found out that Yu Darvish is going to be posted, then it continued with the Angels agreeing to sign both Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson. The Yankees made a pair of Rule 5 Draft picks and are rumored to have interest in both Manny Corpas and Adam Miller. Lost in the shuffle was David Waldstein reporting that the Yankees won the negotiating rights to Hiroyuki Nakajima with a $2.5M bid, a touch more than we heard yesterday. Also, Brian Cashman said this before leaving Dallas (via Bryan Hoch)…

“[Pujols] is a special player. I don’t know him personally, but I see what he does with that bat. It’s Montero-like.”

Please give that man a lifetime contract.

Anyway, here is tonight’s open thread as I fly back home. The Winter Meetings are always a blast, and this year was no different. The Browns and Steelers will be on the NFL Network tonight (8:30pm ET), and all three hockey locals are in action. There’s plenty to talk about, so have it. Enjoy.

Tom Zig

Brian Cashman = Monteroisdinero?
- your mom
  
  If Montero is the next Pujols, we better not be trading him unless it’s for Felix Hernandez or Clayton Kershaw.
  - CP
    
    I believe that Cashman implied that Montero is the real deal and Pujols is just the forerunner.
    
    Which would basically make Pujols John the Baptist.
  - Mister Delaware
    
    If you knew you had rookie year Pujols on your roster, why would you trade him for anyone?
    - your mom
      
      I though we needed pitching, not offense.
    - your mom
      
      I thought we needed pitching, not offense.
      - mustang
        
        shhhhhhh that’s a secret.
        
        JJS
        
        They really dont need anything.
        
        CS Yankee
        
        Wrong, they need #28.
- Monteroisdinero
  
  High praise indeed. I needed it after all the abuse I take around here.
  
  Montero is the future. To keep the pressure off him, he can bat 7th this year and every year move up a spot till he comfortably settles at #3 in 2016. This is not my advice but will be the natural order of things in Yankeeland.
  
  97 wins with a crappy year from ARod and subpar Tex and now we add Montero. Nothing to worry about.
- mustang
  
  I think he is. Must admit Monteroisdinero sticks to his guns even with the abuse and keeps his comments clean. Have to have to admire that.
  - Accent Shallow
    
    Even with the “wanting to replace Swisher with Golson” bit.
    
    Oy vey.
http://bleacherreport.com/users/486240-arad-markowitz Mantle28

So, all my Cardinal friends are saying that they lost all respect for Pujols and hes exactly like Lebron. To me this makes no sense. He helped bring 2 world series to the city, something Lebron couldnt do.

But I gotta ask you guys, lets say Derek Jeter is a free agent after the 2006 season(was he?), and we think were gonna sign him but are still cautious. And then he signs with a team like the Giants or the Padres or whatever.

Would you hate him? I know I wouldnt.
- Monteroisdinero
  
  Although I have not been a big fan of the recent Jeter and his current contract, I love the guy for keeping Bob Sheperd’s voice alive.
- Sean C
  
  One of my best friends is a Card fan. He told me today, “I can understand why he did it, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it. But he made it to the playoffs 7 times and brought 2 championships back with him.” That’s some level-headed thinking to me. However, if you’ve been to StL, that city revolved around Pujols. It’ll be interesting to see what the city/franchise does going forward….
- Thomas Cassidy
  
  I wouldn’t hate Jeter if he left. I’d hate the decision he made, but it’s up to him.
  
  He can only play baseball for so long, he should play wherever he wants, or for however much he wants.
  
  That being said, thank God Jeter is a Yankee fan.
- Pat D
  
  I’d probably hate him, because that’s just the way I am.
  
  I wonder what I would have done if Dave Winfield had left the team voluntarily when his contract was finished. He was my favorite player and I was only 9 when the Yankees traded him to the Angels. I started hating the Yankees and didn’t really start liking them again until after Winfield won the Series with the Blue Jays in 1992.
  
  Something tells me I would have remained loyal to the team and ditched Winfield if he had walked on his own.
- Jimmy McNulty
  
  Well the Angels just offered Pujols more money and the Cards fucked the dog on that. They should have gotten something done last offseason even if it meant like 10/280 or something. Someone really ought to get fired in St. Louis. Pujols was willing to play ball with them, but they just lowballed him. He wanted ten years, and he could get ten years the Cards offered eight. The Cavs offered LeBron the max offer. Lebron, like the cocksucker he is, made a huge spectacle out of ripping the hearts out of Cavs fans. He had ESPN kiss his ass for a month and then devote an hour of programming to blowing him, just so he could take the opportunity to say “Fuck you Cleveland” on a national stage. Pujols did the normal thing and went about his business in a normal way, not to mention gave the Cards two rocks and a chance to play ball. Cardinals fans should be mad at the front office, not Pujols. Pujols took an extra two years and 40-50 million. You can’t blame him for that.
LA Sean

Did Cash really say that? That almost sounds too ridiculously funny to be true. Id imagine he must have had such a big grin while saying it.
- Art Vandelay
  
  I interpretted it as a joke, like yea pujols is as good as montero
- pat
  
  The original tweet included that he laughed after saying that.
Virgil Earp

If George were alive we wouldn’t have let the Angels and Marlins outspend us. We needed upgrades in the rotation and we miss out on the 2 best available starters. That shouldn’t happen to the Yankees. We need to make a splash. Dump Burnett. Trade Teixera. Sign Prince. Sign Darvish. The pen should be fine with Hughes to Joba to Soriano to Robertson to Mo. But we need starters to get us through 5 innings.
- Justin
  
  This is a joke, right? Teix has a no-trade. George did good but he did dumb things too.
- http://abovetheyankeedugout.com/ Carl
  
  And fans like this guy is why I like the new Yankees and what Cashman thinks is best for the team over the old Yankees and George doing crazy shit like this.
  - MannyGeee
    
    Butbutbutbutbut…… PLAYSTATION!!!!!!!
- http://www.nesn.com/2011/01/2011-red-sox-will-challenge-1927-yankees-for-title-of-greatest-team-in-major-league-history.html Denver fighting tebows
  
  yankee fans like these are why the entire nation hates the yanks
- http://bleedingyankeeblue.com Jesse
  
  Folks, it’s “fans” like these who are trolls.
- Jumpin’ Jack Swisher
  
  Yankee fans like this is why they invented early bedtimes.
- MannyGeee
  
  Obvious troll is obvious… Thanks for playing
- FIPster Doofus
  
  The Yankees signed the two best available starters in 2008. One of them was AJ Burnett, whom you want to dump. Go figure.
Reggie C.

I’m 99% sure Cashman said what he said in jest. But, just in case i wake tomorrow morning to read Montero’s the centerpiece of a trade for Adam Wainwright or Lincecum, I better stock on Kleenex.
- pat
  
  Well, hoefully not Waino. Not coming off TJ.
- Steve (different one)
  
  Happy tissues or sad tissues?
  - MannyGeee
    
    Jizz tissues if its Felix… Likely sad tissues anyone else
Kevin G.

How come NBA teams can sign and trade players today? I thought they couldn’t do so until tomorrow? Also, does CP3 to LA mean Dwight to the Nets? Or are the Lakers getting both?
- Rob
  
  Getting both. Lakers have better players to give.
  - pat
    
    That would be absolutely absurd. I’m not even a Lakers fan, but that would be sick.
  - CP
    
    Who? Beyond Bynum, I don’t see what they can reasonably add to a deal. And saying Bynum is injury prone is an understatement, plus he’s only signed for two years (IIRC) compared to one for Howard.
    - Jimmy McNulty
      
      The Magic might actually re-sign Bynum. They’ll probably also include picks. Bynum and picks for Dwight and Chris Paul and Lamar Odom for CP3. I’d say Kobe’d have a great shot at picking up his 6th then.
      - CP
        
        I still think the Nets offer is better (Lopez + 2 1st round picks for Howard and Turkoglu). Maybe I’m biased, but I can’t see trying to build a franchise around Bynum. He’s played one full season in his career, and bad knees aren’t something that usually heals itself. He’s great for the Lakers because they can nurse him through the season and make sure he’s ready for the playoffs, but I don’t know that it would work if he had to carry a team through the regular season too.
        
        Jimmy McNulty
        
        I think the Magic are done once Dwight leaves regardless, Bynum at least has name recognition. Even if he’s overrated I’m sure the Lakers will offer more picks than the Nets would be willing to. The Nets will need those picks coming up and they might end up losing Deron Williams anyways. Their best bet, IMO, is trying to rebuild through the youth movement. I say they’re two or three years off from bringing some serious heat in the basketball world. Why would they trade two possible lottery picks and one of their best players? The goal is to go forward, not backwards.
        
        Kevin G.
        
        I believe Deron said he would resign if they got Dwight.
    - Chilibacca
      
      +1
      Bynum is overrated. They’d be better off swinging a deal with the Nets for Lopez, but even then the return wouldn’t be that great. I’d rather have them keep him, cut Arenas, and try to sign some more pieces. He’s on the record saying he wants to stay, so might as try to placate him.
      - Jimmy McNulty
        
        “They’d be better off swinging a deal with the Nets”
        
        When you read that it’s safe to assume what follows is bullshit.
  - JobaWockeeZ
    
    No fucking way. Brook Lopez is a top 5 center. Bynum only plays 60-65 games a year because of injury issues. Nets have a ton of picks to give up and they can take on a crappy contract from the Magic. Lakers will not have the cap space to do that. Nor do they have picks.
    
    Nets can offer the best if Otis Smith stops acting stupid and begins rebuilding ASAP.
    - Jimmy McNulty
      
      What? Howard, Duncan, Horford, Nene, and Jefferson I’d take before Lopez.
      - JobaWockeeZ
        
        Duncan’s a PF. Lopez has a better career PER than Horford. Nene sure but he’s not young.
        
        Jimmy McNulty
        
        Duncan’s listed as a center on most leader boards, but he’s not a “pure center.” If you go by pure Centers then yeah I’ll grant you that he’s top five but how many of those are there? Not that many, not to mention there’s not many that are very good. There’s also a few PF/C types that I’d rather have over Lopez too.
        
        If the Nets move into Brooklyn and Lopez is still there, Jeter will rejoice because then he won’t be the worst defender in New York. The dude straight blows on defense. Despite being the main scoring threat on the Nets he creates basically nothing for his teammates, to be fair his teammates to suck, so there’s that too.
        
        PER is a pretty good stat, but it’s not the whole story either. I wouldn’t use straight PER if I were trading Dwight.
      - Chilibacca
        
        Only Dwight, Lopez and Amar’e averaged at least 20 with 1.4 blocks a game. And as a Magic fan I’d prefer getting someone who can at least score vs some dude with bad knees and a bad attitude. But again, I’d rather milk out one more season of Dwight over a couple of weak trade proposals.
        
        Jimmy McNulty
        
        Lopez gets blocks, but he can’t rebound his way out of ballsack, one of the worst in basketball.
        
        CP
        
        Bynum can’t rebound either when he’s sitting in the trainers room.
        
        Jimmy McNulty
        
        I think Lopez is 65/67 out of all those who qualify for center at defensive rebounding. So while Bynum may be injury prone I’m sure he’s the more valuable defender despite playing only 80% or so of the season.
- MannyGeee
  
  All for not. Sounds like Stern is squashing the deal.
http://twitter.com/#!/czm93 Craig

I wonder how Cards fans feel regarding Matt Holliday….doesn’t show up in the postseason and some of the $ they used toward him could’ve been used toward Pujols a few years ago.
- vin
  
  He’s been worth every penny the Cards have paid him. If I were a Cards fan, I’d blame the ownership. Albert’s new deal is commensurate with his talent, the Cards wanted him to take a hometown discount, and he told them to go screw. Good for him.
  
  I’d rather spend 25 million per year on a generational talent/icon like Pujols, than two mid- to back-end starters.
  
  There’s a Cards fan verywhere you turn in this country. There’s no way they couldn’t afford Albert, they just chose the safe path.
  - Jimmy McNulty
    
    I dunno if they’re just being safe or underestimated the market for Pujols. Hell, once the Marlins offered 10/275 I think it’s obvious they needed to go ten years. Yeah ten years is going to suck, but you still get to sell Pujols jerseys throughout the ten years. He’s that type of player, homegrown once in a generation talent. How do you fuck that up? What now they’re saying “we’ll just sign Fielder, that’ll make it better!!!!” Sure the production for a few years won’t be that different, but there’s something special about Pujols to the Cardinals that, frankly, I don’t see anywhere else in baseball. How the Cards managed to fuck this one up is beyond me.
- JobaWockeeZ
  
  I’m sure they feel great considering what Werth and Crawford got.
Freddy Garcia’s 86 mph Heat

Since Pujols is almost guaranteed to get into the HOF, and it sounds like he will play almost exactly half of his career for the Cardinals, and the other half for the Angels, who will he go in as? Whoever he wins the most rings with?
- Thomas Cassidy
  
  Probably. But he won’t get in after he hits an average of .280/25/80 for ten years and two failed HGH tests.
  - Pat D
    
    Uh, if he hit .280/25/80 for ten years, he’d still get in.
    
    Two failed HGH tests would be another thing…
    - Steve (different one)
      
      If he got hit by a bus tomorrow, he’d get in
  - Chen Meng Wang
    
    That would give him a career of .304/695/~2100…if that’s not a HOF career I’ve been very confused about the game of baseball for my entire life.
Jimmy McNulty

I think I speak for everyone here in wishing Mike a safe flight home.

On a different note: we saw Pujols leave the Cardinals today, and we might see Chris Paul and Dwight Howard go to the Lakers, and in the NFL we might see Peyton Manning leave the Colts. So basically in one offseason we might see the landscape in three sports change. Exciting times.
- Pat D
  
  Unless you hate the teams getting the players.
  
  And I hate the Lakers and the Angels.
William

Montero is not Pujols, mainly because of his glove. He’s more like manny, without the Steorids and attitude issues.
- pat
  
  .312/.411/.585 vs .328/.420/.617.
  
  I won’t be too upset.
- Monteroisdinero
  
  A 500k/year Manny (in his prime) without PED’s and attitude and with a good work ethic and an average glove sounds great to me.
  
  Who is faster? Pujols or Montero?
  - Accent Shallow
    
    I think Pujols. I expected Montero to run like a catcher, but he is even slower than I anticipated.
- candyforstalin
  
  Montero is not Pujols, mainly because of his glove.
  
  yep. it’s mainly that.
  - Jimmy McNulty
    
    Yeah Pujols can’t catch, if he could he might be as good as Montero.
    - http://www.nesn.com/2011/01/2011-red-sox-will-challenge-1927-yankees-for-title-of-greatest-team-in-major-league-history.html Denver fighting tebows
      
      i laughed.
TomH

The Yankees fail to get past the opening round of the playoffs. They’ve got a rotation that depends on Freddy repeating, on Noesi (a kid) repeating, on Hughes recovering, and on Burnet redeeming himself (no one in his right mind takes this bet). They’ve got a lineup that has often shown itself vulnerable to good playoff pitching, and one in which key players (ARod, Jeter) are older or, like Teixeira, in a two-year state of underachievement. But, like Albania during the Cold War, they Stand Firm with what they’ve got.

What’ve they got? Manuelos and Betances are unproven commodities, and until Montero faces the league a couple of times everyone should be from Missouri about him.

Earlier, someone said George wouldn’t have done this had he been alive. Someone then replied that George did some dumb things. Yes he did, and, as that poster noted, some good things too.

Something fishy’s going on with the Yankees.
- pat
  
  Doesn’t every lineup struggle with good playoff pitching? Otherwise, wouldn’t it be bad playoff pitching?
- Thomas Cassidy
  
  I smell something fishy, too. FELIX TO THE YANKEES!
  
  Garza for Betanes, Warren, Murphy, and Romine.
  - Jimmy McNulty
    
    Please the move they’re working on is Betances, Swisher, and Nuñez for Heyward.
    - Thomas Cassidy
      
      Sorry, no way in hell. If they don’t include Cervelli, Wren hangs up.
      - Jimmy McNulty
        
        Oddly enough given that the Braves traded Escobar for Alex Gonzales because they hated his attitude and weren’t willing to be patient I wouldn’t be surprised if they traded Heyward, dude basically put up Nuñez’s line this year.
        
        NOTE: this isn’t saying I think they will, just if it happens I wouldn’t be surprised.
- Monteroisdinero
  
  Well Yu know….
  - Jimmy McNulty
    
    <33333333333333
- TCMiller30
  
  on Noesi (a kid) repeating
  
  Nova?
- Kevin
  
  GEroge went beyond doing dumb things. He turned the Yankees into a laughing stock in the 80’s.
- Jumpin’ Jack Swisher
  
  Yes. It’s called “utilizing common sense.”
- Chris W.
  
  Doug Drabek was unproven. So glad George dealt him for Rick Rhoden.
Jimmy McNulty

Lakers get CP3.
- The Big City of Dreams
  
  Not anymore unfortunately
- MannyGeee
  
  Nope
- Reggie C.
  
  CP3 is Knicks-bound.
  
  Dont ask me about the mechanics of it going down.
  
  its just going to happen.
CJ

What if montero is like mike Piazza without the mustache. To find out, yanks can have a Home run derby in spring training, if montero stinks, he will be as good as piazza.
Tyrone Sharpton

Why not lock up Montero to a 14 year, 140 million dollah deal? Makes sense for all parties, especially before Montero evolves into Bonds/Pujols lite.
- candyforstalin
  
  oh, man.
Jimmy McNulty

So Law thinks that Darvish will land with the Rangers…
- Gonzo
  
  Maybe it’s because of Bobby V, but I think he lands with the Red Sox. That would suck.
  - Jimmy McNulty
    
    No…they’re already going to hit the lux tax just filling out their roster. I’m not sure they’ll even be willing to drop another 50 or so million on the posting fee.
    - Gonzo
      
      That’s part of the reason why I think they go for it, the threshold. Same as the Yankees. One year of pain before Papi some money comes off the books.
  - MannyGeee
    
    Didn’t stark say this same. Shit about Nakajima? Said Nakajima would hold out, play in Japan in 2012 and Bobby veeeeee will lure him to boston with his crazy Asian coaching ways….
Charles

I don’t see a need to go out and make a huge splash, we have a solid team that you can’t really improve much on. Just sign a few guys for the bench/bullpen and maybe trade for a Garza/#2 guy and call it an offseason.
- Jimmy McNulty
  
  Darvish is the splash, dump Burnett if they can and try to pick up Kuroda.
  - YankeesJunkie
    
    If the Yankees dumped Burnett and picked up Darvish I would be fine in giving guys like Warren, Noesi, and even Phelps a shot at the rotation until Betances and Banuelos comes up. However, I think Noesi can be better than Nova.
- Reggie C.
  
  You dont just say “maybe trade for a Garza” and dont consider it a splash.
  
  Garza would likely cost us BOTH Banuelos both Betances if Montero is truly off the table.
Avi

So Pujols at first, Kendrys Morales DH and Trumbo at 3B. Is that the plan?
- Jimmy McNulty
  
  I don’t think they’re counting on Morales for much, besides I’m sure they’ll trade Trumbo for a position of need. There should be takers.
  - Avi
    
    I think Morales could probably still hit like he did in ’09, if he could ever play of course. I read somewhere today that they plan on playing Trumbo at 3B (can’t remeber where I saw it)
  - Avi
    
    Imagine they still had Mike Napoli catching..
Jimmy McNulty

Cubs get Ian Stewart for DJ LeMahieu and Tyler Colvin. I recall seing LeMahieu at the CWS, he was quite the player there.
- YankeesJunkie
  
  You near Omaha or just enjoy going up to the CWS.
- pat
  
  Is there something wrong with LeMahieu? Stewart sucks. I don’t see the point. Am I missing something?
Jamey

Hoping for some YUle time joy with a nice Christmas present from the Yankees to the fans.
CS Yankee

No worries…they got time they haven’t even used yet.

If CJ could of been had for 5/80…I understand being bummed. However, instead of blowing AJ money on a #2/3 lefty they have already proven they would prefer getting a co-Ace for 120-140M$ (or so).

If Yu is that guy, maybe they could jump into the fire with a 60+M$ fee & a 10 year 60M$ contract? Plan B might be to throw the AAA boys against the MLB wall and see what sticks.
- Fin
  
  I think plan A is to get Darvish. Plan B is to hope a Javier Vasquez type trade presents itself (though it didnt work out, I think it was a good, fair trade). Plan C is throw AAA guys at the wall and see what sticks.
- MannyGeee
  
  10/60??? Think that gets er done? Word on the street is that Yu was making $10m per in Japan.
  
  Got to pay the man AJ money, or at least trump Dice K money. My bet is Something like 6/72.
Ha

Darvish asked 20M a year.
Yada Yada Yadier Molina

Just because I had nothing better to do than pore over #s and drink Guinness (not necessarily in that order), I decided to compare Phil Hughes’ career #s w/Clay Buccholz’s. The results were even closer than I anticipated:

HUGHES

443.2 IP 421 hits 157 BB 370 K 36-23 W/L 1.30 WHIP 4.46 ERA

BUCHHOLZ

447 IP 416 hits 185 BB 342 K 35-24 W/L 1.34 WHIP 3.64 ERA
- Gonzo
  
  Do yourself a favor and don’t do it for the last two years. Also, remember to exclude relief appearances.
Yu aint Matsuzaka

“Sponichi mentions that the New York Yankees offered Hiroki Kuroda an offer said to be worth around US$12M year”

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/baseball/news/2011/12/09/kiji/K20111209002202700.html
- Cy Pettitte
  
  Hiroyuki looks like he’s not likely to sign, they need a friend for Yu.
  - RISP FTW
    
    I’ll say what I said in the other thread, going after Kuroda is a bad sign for Darvish fans.
    
    You don’t pay 12M for a rotation pal, plus if NY got both Kuroda and Darvish that would mean they would have to send Hughes to the bullpen or AAA (which is unlikely because he’s actually only a coulpe years from FA, you might as well get as much value out of him as you can) and they would have to give AJ away which is something I think their hesitant to do.
    
    If NY signs Kuroda I would predict their out on Darvish, unless they really believe Hughes and AJ are both destined to be 5+ ERA pitchers again next year.
    
    I really want Darvish so I am gonna root against a Kuroda signing even though I prefer that to a multi year deal for anyone else on the MLB FA market.
    - Cy Pettitte
      
      Kuroda is probably a fall back as a stop gap to next offseason and their establishing interest in him. Really don’t know what could happen with Yu at this point. Rangers, Marlins, Nats, Sox, and Jays could all put in huge bids.
      - MannyGeee
        
        This. Cashman is hedging his bets. And just like we said 12 months ago, Kuroda is not the worst consolation prize on the market…
        
        RISPFTW
        
        Completely agree, unless Kuroda signs with NY before the Darvish bidding is over. If that happens I don’t think the Yanks were hot for Darvish, don’t see them signing both was my point, but we’ll see.