Oct
02

What Went Wrong: The Dynamic Duo

By

As part of our continuing effort to run a post mortem on the Yankees’ season, we’re looking at what went wrong. Earlier this week, we looked at Andy Pettitte’s poor second half and the lack of production out of the catcher’s spot. Today we turn to a subject near and dear to our hearts.

Last winter as the Yanks did or did not make an offer for Johan Santana — the official record on that remains a little hazy — we staked a lot on the concept of the Big Three. We were vehemently opposed to included both Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes in the same deal, and we even sold t-shirts.

Needless to say, that didn’t quite work out.

On the season, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy made 18 appearances for the Yankees, and most people would prefer to forget 16 of those outings. Overall, the pair went 0-8 with a combined 7.45 ERA in just 73.2 innings. They allowed 93 hits and walked 41 while striking out just 50. After a promising end to 2007, these two did not deliver as anyone expected.

Had Hughes and Kennedy turned in at least average performance — 25-30 starts with ERAs under 4.75 — the Yanks would never have needed Darrell Rasner and Sidney Ponson. They probably would have won a few more games, and the team wouldn’t have ended up six games out of a playoff spot.

Of course, it’s not really fair to lump these two pitchers in together. Right now, one still has standing within the organization while the other is in limbo and could very well be moved this off-season. Phil Hughes lost his season to a rib injury. He cracked his rib due to a repetitive motion stress and was on the shelf from May through August. When he finally arrived back in the Bronx, he made two very promising starts, and at 22, he remains a big player in the Yanks’ plans going forward.

Ian Kennedy is a different story. Showing a mix of brash cockiness, confidence and arrogance, Kennedy just couldn’t get outs at the Major League level. He was sent down to AAA twice this year and recalled twice. Each time he came back to the Bronx, he was worse than before. The Yankees don’t seem to mention him too often in their plans for 2009, and he’ll really have to earn a trip back to the Bronx.

But while Kennedy’s stock in the eyes of the fans has fallen, he still has value to the team. The Yanks could include him a trade. He would still fetch a pretty penny, and the Yanks would probably part with him if the price were right. The team could also recognize that young pitchers can take a few years to mature at the Major League level. Kennedy has ran his way through AAA in a way that suggests he’s not being challenged. In the Majors, this year, he looked overmatched, but that’s hardly indicative of future successes or failures.

In the end, the Yankees weren’t bargaining on a Hughes’ injury and Ian Kennedy’s inability to get outs. They could have sustained either one if the other had stayed healthy and effective, but they couldn’t overcome both. It ended up costing them greatly, but we — and the team — will stand behind them. This year may have been a lost year for them, but the slate will be wiped clean in 2009. Next year, you can be though that the Yanks will have a better back-up plan.

Categories : Analysis

191 Comments»

  1. BigBlueAL says:

    Listening to Cashman today he basically said Hughes only pitched bad cause he got hurt in April and is very much in the plans of the future for the Yankees, even though he is not guaranteed a spot in the rotation for next season but he seems like almost a lock for the 5th spot (hoping they have a sold first 4).

    IPK on the other hand wasnt even mentioned at all except for mentioning how disappointing he was last season. Safe to say his time with the Yankees might be over real soon. One final note Cashman referred to Joba as the #1 starter once Wang got hurt. Safe to say Joba in the rotation is a safe bet for next season….

  2. gg says:

    i hope that works, i dont think posada is a clown and i have to wonder if he can handle a real workload despite jorges comments?? think realistically my friends. i hope he DOES get the chance and puts to rest my fears and stays healthy for a whole year

    i think he needs to get the shot at it, im just scared, we’ll see if he can stay healthy for a whole season

  3. pat says:

    IPk was just follwing the advice of minor league career homerun king Crash Davis

    Look, Ian–these Big Leage hitters are gonna light you up like a pin ball machine for awhile–don’t worry about it. Be cocky and arrogant even when you’re getting beat. That’s the secret. —You gotta play this game with fear and arrogance.

  4. David Brown says:

    I do not like Ian Kennedy, he is not cocky, he simply has a miserable attitude (He stunk his final season at USC, bec ause he was “Bored” his word not mine). He is nothing but a prima donna, who thinks he is ENTITLED to everything (Guess what Ian, NO ONE is putting you in Cooperstown yet, YOU NEED TO EARN IT)). I actually saw the same think in Gerrit Cole, a rich spoiled brat, who Daddy Warbucks oops Cole, knew could not hack it in The Bronx. In addition, he preferred the idea of chasing girls in his Ferrari down Sunset Blvd, instead of riding the team bus in Tampa (Like the other “Peasants” the Yankees drafted), so he went to UCLA.
    Phil Hughes is a VERY different case, he has the ability and ATTITUDE to be a winner. Does it mean he is Santana? No it does not. But, when average pitchers get $12,000,000 a SEASON (See Kyle Lohse), he is a good investment.
    This organization is THE NEW YORK YANKEES, NOT the Washington Nationals, the key is getting people here, who consider it a PRIVLEDGE NOT A RIGHT to be here. It means saying NO to bribing Sabathia to coming here, and finding guys like Lassiter and Marshall (In the draft) and A Brocius (In a trade)who know the tradition and history, and welcome the chance to be a part of it (As opposed to a Kennedy or Cole). When they get more guys like Paul O’Neill, Posada, Tino, or Jeter (Only ONE of whom is a Hall Of Famer), who fit that standard, and fewer Arods or Kennedys, who NEVER will, the faster they will win title # 27.

  5. mustang says:

    ” Next year, you can be though that the Yanks will have a better back-up plan.”

    They should have had a back-up plan THIS year. How could the Yankees enter the season with one ace, two older starters, and two rookies and expect to win? It was an ill-fated plan from the start especially the IPK part. I mean handing over a rotation spot on 200 million dollar team to a kid with a good minor league record and a few Sept. wins come on.
    Cashman once said all he ever wanted to do was to develop one rookie each year on the MLB level. If he stuck to that thinking maybe they would be in the playoffs right now. Instead 2008 was a lost what they developed would of happen regardless (Joba and the bullpen) and Hughes/IPK are back to square one. Hopefully the Yankees will learn from their mistakes and address the issue this winter.

    • Jeremy says:

      I think a lot of successful teams utilize a plan just like what the Yankees did – rely on a mix of veterans and inexperienced kids. Joba was the Yankees’ ace in the hole, who could replace a starter who didn’t work out.

      Relying on IPK turned out to be a mistake. I don’t think relying on Hughes was, though. If he had been healthy, we would have seen good things from him, at least better than what we saw from Rasner and Ponson.

      There wasn’t a back-up plan per se (except to turn to the scrap heap), but how many teams would have had a backup plan suitable for replacing their two of their best pitchers (Wang and Joba) and their injured phenom (Hughes)? Pitchers good enough to constitute such a back up plan would be in the rotation to begin with.

      If the Yankees had invested in more pitching to replace IPK and Hughes, it would have cost them a fortune and probably would not have made them a championship team. Santana might have been enough (at a tremendous cost), but anyone else they could have acquired would likely have been a Silva- or Washburn-like overpriced mediocrity. Or we would have repeated the mistakes of the past by making our rotation older.

      Cashman is looking for smart contracts. He doesn’t like long-term deals for anyone, particularly pitchers (which is why I doubt he will spring for CC). The rotation wasn’t good this season but it is fixable precisely because it is not plugged up with immovable contracts.

      • mustang says:

        I see your point can’t say I agree with everything, but I do see your point.

        • steve (different one) says:

          like Cashman said, the Twins went all the way to the tie-breaker game with 5 inexperienced starters.

          why can’t the yankees do that? people speak in absolutes, as if it were IMPOSSIBLE to win with 2 rookie starters. it’s not. it’s just impossible to win when your offense disappoints on the magnitude of 200 fewer runs than the previous year.

          Cashman gambled that the Yankees would have enough pitching, and you know what? he was right. the pitching was DECENT this year despite losing Wang, Joba, Hughes, and a disappointing 2nd half from Pettitte. the Yankees pitched well enough to win 89 games with a majorly disappointing offense.

          i’m not saying you aren’t making some good points, mustang. you are.

          i’m just saying, the Yankees had 3 starters go down with injuries and they still had a decent pitching staff.

          they had a team ERA+ of 101. only 5 teams in the AL were better.

          if they sign Sabathia and Hughes bounces back just to league average, the 2009 Yankees have the potential to have a REALLY good staff.

          that’s what i take from this season.

          • Old Ranger says:

            Agree…
            With a healthy CMW, Joba, Phil we have the start of a fine rotation. Now, they need to find the missing pieces…two more good starters, and good young athletic replacements for the people we are going to let go. Looking inside the org., is my first move (pitchers & position), then look at possible FA or trades. Main thing is staying with the idea Cash has projected for the future…and pray! 27/09.

          • mustang says:

            “like Cashman said, the Twins went all the way to the tie-breaker game with 5 inexperienced starters’

            If that’s the goal find, but I thinking we expect a little more from the Yanks.

            I agree with you on the offense, but if they would have had even a mediocre 4th starter they might of made the playoff.
            My point all year has been that there just wasn’t a need to do it this way. They could of had developed the kids in the 5th spot of the rotation and not put themselves in the hole like they did.

            • Ben K. says:

              You’re missing the point here in a way. The Yankees had plenty of backup plans, but when both of your starters get injured (or don’t pitch well), the backup plan is useless. No team has the ability to overcome missing three-fifths of their opening day starting for nearly an entire season. That’s not a backup plan; that’s Plan D at that point.

              • mustang says:

                Put the injuries to the side for a minute. At the start of the season did anyone think that Mussina was going to last the whole season or for that fact Andy. So you’re starting the season knowing that your going to need a starter somewhere down the line. Your back-up plan was Joba, who had never pitched as a starter on the MLB level, and what else? A group of long-men.
                Knowing this they still starter the season with 2 rookies in the rotation one who’s only claim to fame was a good 2007 Sept.

                COME ON, PLEASE !!!!!

              • But it’s deeper than that… Cashman did have a backup plan for the backup plan in case ALL the older guys got hurt and ALL the younger guys struggled. That plan was Dan Giese, Jeff Karstens, Alan Horne, and Jeff Marquez. Problem was, THEY got hurt too.

                Of the top TWELVE starting pitchers in the organization not named Ponson, Rasner, or Igawa (namely, Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Pavano, Karstens, Horne, Marquez, Giese), Mike Mussina is the ONLY ONE who didn’t miss any time to injury. There’s now way to have enough backup plans to cover that volume of DL time without having a $300M payroll and hoarding away the Kyle Lohses and Claudio Vargases of the world in Scranton.

                • steve (different one) says:

                  and the one name everyone was ripping Cashman for not signing as insurance was Bartolo Colon.

                  who pitched 39 innings and got hurt.

                  if that happened in NY, the exact same people would be ripping Cashman for depending on such an injury-prone pitcher as backup.

                  everything went wrong this year. shit happens.

                  that doesn’t mean i want the yankees to sign Livan Hernandez in the off chance everyone gets hurt again.

                • mustang says:

                  Funny.

                  The point is why start the season with two unknown situations in the rotation.

                • Ben K. says:

                  That wasn’t your point an hour ago.

                • Chris says:

                  Another problem is that the backup plans have to be minor league players – you can’t just sign free agents and hold them in reserve. There are limits to the roster and roster moves that prevent you from having 15 pitchers and just shuffling them around when someone gets hurt.

                • mustang says:

                  Ben K. says:
                  October 2nd, 2008 at 10:58 am
                  That wasn’t your point an hour ago.

                  Yes it was.

                  2008
                  Wang
                  Mussina
                  Pettitte
                  mediocre 4th starter
                  Hughes/IPK

                  Life might of been better.
                  LOL

          • ceciguante says:

            the twins are a bogus comparison for the hughes and kennedy experiement of 2008. their “five inexperienced starters” are aged 24, 24, 25, 26 and 27. hughes and ipk were 21 and 23 starting this season. cashman, quoted by kepner recently, conveniently overlooked this (as did you) when trying to justify his hughes/ipk gaffe this year. piss poor reasoning there.

            it’s been written that pitchers tend to need 500 MiLB innings before being ready for MLB. hughes had what, 200 before this year? it’s no surprise that he faltered. for the same reasons, while i hope he contributes meaningfullly in 09, but i wouldn’t count on it.

            • Ben K. says:

              Not to challenge you on that one, but where has it been written? I’m curious to see this argument.

              • ceciguante says:

                i’ll look for it. i recall reading this in 1 or 2 articles when hughes was promoted last ~may and many believed he was being rushed. think it was a quote from some scout(s). it wasn’t presented as a rule, but a guideline, the point being that most SPs taking on MLB with only 200 MiLB IP are going to be in over their heads. that’s the part of cashman’s 2008 plan that i think he has to take heat for. he can say we’re going with youth, but it’s not like hughes and kennedy were 24 and 26 to start the season, with substantial MiLB innings. it’s the rare doc gooden who storms the league successfully at such a young age.

            • steve (different one) says:

              hughes had what, 200 before this year?

              he had 275 and 75 in the majors. so 350.

              and neither Slowey nor Perkins had close to 500 minor league innings before this year.

              Perkins had about 400 professional innings and Slowey had about 430.

              not much more than Hughes.

              your research is “piss poor”

              • ceciguante says:

                don’t try that bullshit here. you cherry picked 2 of the 5 twins starters, and both still had more IP than hughes. sorry, i’d call 400 or 430 IP “close to” 500. much more so than 275.

                baker, 27, had 760 pro IP entering this year.
                blackburn, 26, had 700.
                liriano, 24, had 750.
                slowey, 24, had 430.
                perkins, 25, had 400.
                avg twins “kids” pro innings entering ’08 = 610
                hughes pro innings entering ’08 = 350

                hughes was rushed. and my point, again, is that cashman was disingenuous in trying to justify reliance on hughes and IPK by pointing to the success of these five (see kepner article), all who have more experience than hughes. your parroting of cashman was either disingenuous too, or merely ignorant. (pick one)

                • steve (different one) says:

                  your parroting of cashman was either disingenuous too, or merely ignorant. (pick one)

                  you said pitchers need 500 innings before they are ready.

                  i showed you that the Twins had TWO pitchers who started the season with significantly less than 500 innings under their belts.

                  that’s all i was saying. i admitted i was being a smart ass with my last line, but you posted your second post before i got in there.

                • ceciguante says:

                  yes, you were being a smart ass. par for the course with you, despite what are sometimes good insights.

                  i don’t think pointing out that 2 pitchers were at 400 and 430 IP, when the other 3 were at 700+, is a meaningful deviation from 500 IP. i didn’t say pitchers need 500 IP in all cases, i said it’s been written that they *tend to* need that many, as a guideline. as i said, it’s the rare doc gooden who excels at such a young age as hughes.

                  further to my point (which you acknowledged), kennedy had even fewer pro IP than hughes entering ’08 (~240). so cashman’s comparison of hughes and IPK to the twins 2008 starters was misleading. and i’m sure cashman knew that, but he tries to spin the matter to cover his ass. he’s not winning points with me there.

                  let me also be clear: i don’t think ALL pitchers should be held in MiLB until they reach 500 IP, i just think cashman erred in depending on TWO such unseasoned pitchers in his rotation. i agree hughes showed a little promise in september ’07, but that had to be taken w/ a grain of salt too (sample size, etc.). cashman screwed up, and it cost us some wins in 08.

              • steve (different one) says:

                let me add, since i was being a smart ass, that i think you have a point with Kennedy.

                but Hughes did pitch about 80 innings in the majors last year and he pitched well. league average at 21 in the majors? extremely positive sign that Hughes was special.

                we’ll never know b/c he was injured, but i think the yankees had some solid evidence that Hughes was ready for the majors this year.

                • ceciguante says:

                  one other thing: i would’ve been fine with hughes as one experiment in the 5 spot, and a more reliable/experienced option in the 4 spot. but there is no reason this $200M team should have entrusted 2/5 of the rotation to hughes & IPK, w/ ham ‘n eggers like rasner and karstens as the backups. that decision alone probably cost the team several games in ’08. a better GM, with that budget, never would have taken such a risk.

  6. mustang says:

    ” Yankees weren’t bargaining ………… and Ian Kennedy’s inability to get outs.”

    Well they should of that’s why he is a rookie.

    • Ben K. says:

      So basically what you’re saying is that no rookie pitcher should have get outs? Logic just jumped out the window right there.

      • mustang says:

        No what I’m saying is that not factoring the idea that IPK might suck ass was stupid.

        • Ben K. says:

          Considering the way he pitched in college and then through the minor leagues and the in the Majors, that would have been a baseless conclusion. You’re telling me that, one year ago, you knew that Ian Kennedy would suck? If anyone believes that, I have a bridge to sell them.

          • steve (different one) says:

            yeah, there is a difference between thinking he’d be an all-star and thinking he could throw 170 inning with an ERA of 5.25.

            that’s all he needed to do.

            i don’t think that was unreasonable.

            • mustang says:

              But it was because he couldn’t do it this season.

              • steve (different one) says:

                this makes no sense.

                we are talking about what was reasonable BEFORE the season started.

                if you think it was unreasonable to expect a 5.25-ish ERA before the season, then fine. agree to disagree.

                if you think that the fact he DIDN’T do that proves that their expectations were unreasonable, well, i don’t know what to say to that.

                • mustang says:

                  The second one.

                  I also think the way the whole “Big Three” situation as handed was unreasonable. I would have loved to see what IPK might of done without the fanfare maybe things would have been different.

                • Mustang, you’re turning my mind into mush.

                  ——————

                  steve (different one) says:

                  “if you think it was unreasonable to expect a 5.25-ish ERA before the season, then fine. agree to disagree.

                  if you think that the fact he DIDN’T do that proves that their expectations were unreasonable, well, i don’t know what to say to that.”

                  mustang says:

                  “The second one.”

                  ——————

                  airnegiaebuvbiauiwerpfbhauwefhaw
                  he49ufawfp9u3rg982gb3rf9qa28hd3
                  nx8248yr0qc47902374q2n0f3y7xg8
                  3aw40qry2nm8cr09ryqnc84rnq32
                  498yqv2c4yqn294y5r347nc3475yc
                  0q47x0mnq28934q7534cx6n75895
                  fyhn3wf7x48ninewrgnbb2435245bj

                  [slamming my head against the desk]

                  Apparently, requirement #1 to being a good GM is possessing a time machine so you can go into the future no ensure that every single decision is flawless and the worst case scenario never happens.

                  We should fire CashMoney and hire H.G. Wells.

                • mustang says:

                  “if you think that the fact he DIDN’T do that proves that their expectations were unreasonable, well, i don’t know what to say to that.”

                  That what I meant by the second one.

                • mustang says:

                  Apparently, requirement #1 to being a good GM is possessing a time machine so you can go into the future no ensure that every single decision is flawless and the worst case scenario never happens.”

                  No, but it is a requirement to try and have a team on the field that give you the best chance to win.
                  I just don’t thinking having 2 rookies in your starting rotation with little MLB experience fulfills that requirement.

          • mustang says:

            “You’re telling me that, one year ago, you knew that Ian Kennedy would suck?”

            No I did not, but wasn’t ready to hand him a spot in the rotation and mark him as part of the second coming.

            Someone wrote a VERY good thread about Alfredo Aceves and Sept. Numbers lets apply that to IPK.

            • What we did with Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes is the exact same thing that the other 29 MLB teams do EVERY YEAR. It’s also the same thing we did with Joba, and previously, with CMW, Cano, Jeter, Bernie, Mo, etc. etc. etc.

              We handed opportunities to youngsters with promise to see if they could hack it. Some do, some don’t. Some of the ones that do later tail off and stop being productive major leaguers. Some of the ones that don’t later figure it out and do become successful major leaguers. We bet on some kids, for the first time in a long time, and had some successes and some failures, but apparently we’re not allowed to have anything other than a 100% success rate…

              • mustang says:

                List which of the 29 teams had two rookies in their starting rotations?
                And no I don’t expect 100% success rate, but what the Yankees did was over hype these kids and then put them in a very difficult situation.
                I don’t remember them doing that with Cano, Jeter, Bernie, or MO.

                • “what the Yankees did was over hype these kids and then put them in a very difficult situation.”

                  No. What talk radio, the MSM, and the blogosphere did was hype them and put them in a different situation.

                  And they didn’t do that with Jeter, Bernie or Mo because they weren’t joining a team that had just won 4 titles in 5 years, thus crazily warping peoples perspective and sense of rationality. Those guys were joining a Yankee team that was just beginning to be relevant after a long stretch of putridity. Those fans were simply happy to see talented, quality players and didn’t expect to win every game 10-1 and go 162-0 on the year, and so they cut some slack for the fact that Jeter couldn’t field all that well, or that Bernie’s arm wasn’t the greatest, etc. etc.

                  As for Cano, well, people certainly seem to impatiently rag on him, don’t they?

                • mustang says:

                  Come on so did YES. I can still remember the YES commercials with the three of them something about a new era or something. No pressure there. Lets not forget Hank this winter.
                  The Cano things I agree with you that’s just people being silly.

  7. David Brown says:

    I do not expect the Yankees to win in 2009 (The Rays (Particularly with the addition of David Price), and Sox are much better teams). Throw in the probable LOSS of 20 game winner, Mike Mussina, and having to replace Abreu and Giambi. The key is building towards 2010 and beyond. There is a lot of discussion about the kid pitchers and injuries about their failures. That is only a part of the problem, here are a few others. A: Mitchell Report. B: Corrupt Latin American Scouts. C: The Inoa, Cole, and Bittle failures. D: Replacing Joe Torre (Wait until he and the Dodgers knock off the Cubs). E: The regression of Rodriguez & Cano. F; The rise of the Rays.
    It will take a year, to overcome those issues (Or MORE, depending on the health of Josh Beckett. If he is healthy next year, it means more likely 2012, until the Yankees contend (After 2011 they get Jeter’s and Posada’s scontract off the books, and BOTH are on the decline, and guys like Suttle, Romine, Laird, and Angelini can hopefully be ready to step in, and start a new dynasty)).

    • mustang says:

      Ok so I’m looking at 2013 or so.
      Maybe.

      LOL

    • pat says:

      Dude need we remind.you this team won 89 games with a hodgepodge starting rotation key injuries to major run producers and shitty years from cano and CF? The mitchell report, latin american scouts, cole inoa, bittle, and saintjoseph torre have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the team we put on the field next year. Its still way to early to talk about regression with arod as he had another stupendous year at the plate considering he missed 20 games or so. Even robbie ended the year on a tear after changing his batting stance and getting benched. Josh Beckett is a mediocre regular season pitcher when healthy and even during the rays sick year theyre having we still had a better than .500 record against them. 5 games is all we were out of the playoffs by. If you dont think full seasons outta wang posada matsui joba and others can overcome that then, well thats your opinion.

    • steve (different one) says:

      oh no, the Bittle failure!!!1!!!!

    • Jamal G. says:

      You are like the blogger version of Bill Madden. Everything you say is wrong. Absolutely wrong.

      • Old Ranger says:

        You are much kinder than I would have been. 27/09.

      • Matt G. says:

        Jamal, argue on the merits if you want, but what you accomplish by name-calling? If there is any flaw with the RAB community it’s that it’s a bit incestuous, and David Brown doesn’t need to get jumped on for speaking his mind. He’s a hell of a lot better informed than most in the blogoshere. And his basic point–that the next core of championship Yankees teams is still in the low minors–is hardly outrageous.

    • mustang says:

      The more I read this the more it hurt my head I’m going to stop now and get an aspirin.

    • jsbrendog says:

      regression of arod? now i am an avid arod hater, card carrying member, but regression? from a career year he will probably never duplicate or surpass?

      you know what, youre right. everyone should have a career year every year. sorry for being stupid

    • A.D. says:

      How would Iona, Cole, Bittle, or any scout in latin america, have essentially any impact on the next year or 2. Bittle was the only one that maybe could have been in the majors in either ’09 or ’10?

  8. Bo says:

    Those T-shirts will go down on the same nostalgia level as the Edsel, New Coke, and Betamax.

  9. RobC says:

    Kennedy could be good trade bait for an NL team.
    If the Padres shop Jake Peavey the Yankees have to make an offer.
    Hughes and Kennedy could go in that kind of trade.
    Come to think of it Idle might work in the NL too.

    • pat says:

      hughes, kennedy, a couple austin jacksons 3 or 4 jesus monteros, 2.45 zach mcallisters anda handful of prilys cuellos might get it done.

      • RobC says:

        Hughes, Kennedy, Melky,Cano
        about the same price as Santana
        maybe add Pavano and $$

        • Ben K. says:

          Why are we even talking about Pavano? He’s no longer under contract with the Yankees, and they sure as hell aren’t going to pick up his option just to hope to trade him.

          • UWS says:

            Not to mention that Pavano’s option comes with a full NTC if I recall correctly. Unless they have a handshake agreement that he’ll waive it (and there’s no way in hell you’d trust Pavano to stick to it), there’s no chance of that option getting picked up.
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            Now watch them announce Carl Pavano has been resigned for 2 more years.

        • “Hughes, Kennedy, Melky,Cano… maybe add Pavano and $$”

          Yankee fans thinking that shit like this would actually be workable deals that our opponents would agree to is why they get mad when deals they want don’t happen.

          Nonsensical. Years from now, RobC will be furious that we didn’t get Jake Peavy when “we had the chance”.

            • Thanks for proving my point for me.

              Peavy is 27; his trade value is off the charts. He’s under contract for the next four seasons at a below-market $59MM total. In 2013, his $22MM club option could be seen as a discount as well – remember when A.J. Burnett at $11MM a year was crazy? The A’s received a six-prospect bounty for three years of Dan Haren; Peavy suitors will have to top that. Peavy will also need to be compensated to waive his no-trade clause.

              Rob: We’re going to have to bend over and spread ‘em if we want Jake Peavy.

  10. mike says:

    The reason the Twins made the playoffs and not the Yanks can be explained in that they have young “plus” position players, their young outfielders actually improved this season, and their pitching phenom was actually effective this year. This was after they traded Garza and Santana!

    They have a manager who is an effective communicator, a system which produces Twins-type fundamental players, and a media/town which lets them breathe.

    They are a better run team. Period. and, dont be surprised if they are even better next year, with a full season of Liraino, young outfielders improving more…

  11. Emac2 says:

    I’m not convinced on Peavy. I worry about his health and what he does vs. lefties. I think we sign CC and let Wang go as a free agent when arbitration ends.

    • radnom says:

      what?!

    • Old Ranger says:

      Sarcasam…right? 27/09.

    • Ben K. says:

      Don’t get your hopes up about CC.

      • pat says:

        or about letting cmw walk after arbitration that is so absolutely nuts.

      • Reggie C. says:

        Exactly. Can the Yanks afford to ignore a plus 250 inning campaign from CC? That’s almost 500 innings pitched in 2 seasons!!

        If we can get Jake Peavy for a package of Cano, Melancon, Kennedy, and Romine — DO IT !!!!!!

      • Yes, Ben. We shouldn’t get our hopes up about CC. We also shouldn’t get our hopes down about CC either.

        It’s free agency, and anything can happen. But we’re the clear-cut favorites to get him, and it’s not really that close.

        • Ben K. says:

          Oh you’re right, but I just don’t want to hear a whole bit of “Cashman is teh sux0r” when CC opts to play in California. The Yanks can blow him away with money, and if he wants to, he’ll come here. I hope they get him, but a few other teams will be interested in him as well.

    • Chris C. says:

      “I’m not convinced on Peavy. I worry about his health and what he does vs. lefties. I think we sign CC and let Wang go as a free agent when arbitration ends.”

      WHAAAATTT????? You’re worried about how Peavy does against lefties? The man is 30-17 with a 2.70 ERA in his last 400 innings pitched (that encompasses the last two season, so there goes your health concerns!) He had a 1.18 WHIP, and is only 27 years old!!! Lefties are hitting .263 against him (not exactly lighting it up), while all right handed hitters look like kids batting 13th on a Little League team when facing him!

      IF you want to be concerned about something, be concerned about the fact that he’s spent his career on the Padres. That may be a problem, when relocating to New York. Andy Hawkins, anyone? But to show concern about his production is ridiculous.

      And yeah, let’s let a starter who’s won 38 ballgames in two innings and has had ZERO arm injuries walk. Very bright.

      And sign CC. Even thought he’s from California, wants to go back there, loves to hit, and the Dodgers and Angels, two PLAYOFF TEAMS, have a vault of money to offer.
      Sure, he’ll disregard all that to come to the Yankees……….doubling Santana’s deal oughtta do the trick!

      • steve (different one) says:

        And sign CC. Even thought he’s from California, wants to go back there, loves to hit, and the Dodgers and Angels, two PLAYOFF TEAMS, have a vault of money to offer.

        since when do the Dodger have a vault of money to offer?

        the Angels might, but that would mean they aren’t signing Teixeira. they won’t sign both.

        as for the rest, you are basically taking your opinion and stating it as fact.

  12. pounder says:

    Who’s in favor of Jorge Posada as a player/coach?

    • steve (different one) says:

      no one

    • jsbrendog says:

      only if his mouth is wired shut

    • Slugger27 says:

      ….seriously?

    • Chris C. says:

      “Who’s in favor of Jorge Posada as a player/coach?”

      Good lord! What the hell do you know about Jorge Posada’s ability to be a coach?? You want to call him a “team leader” that’s one thing, but a coach?
      He’s the same guy who said, “I’m the catcher, and that is where I’ll play”, and “Joba should be in the bullpen”.

      Already, that’s two very poor coaching decisions.

  13. Emac2 says:

    If we can’t sign CC then we might have to keep Wang but I would rather pay 20 to CC than 15 to Wang. I’m a Wang fan but not for what he can get as a free agent.

    The innings are an issue and lots of exams would proceed a big deal like that.

    I’m not kidding about Peavy either. I think he was injured mid/early season and pitched hurt.

    • steve (different one) says:

      what season are you talking about?

      Wang will get about $7M this year. then $10M next year. then $12-13M in 2011.

      the Yankees won’t have to worry about making a decision on Wang until the winter of 2011.

      i don’t even see the point of discussing it now. he has 3 years of arbitration left.

    • Geno says:

      Who would you rather pay the $15 mil to? The Carlos Silvas of the world? If I’m Cash, I gladly pay $15 mil a season to Wang. He’s shown he can be a solid #2 starter in NYC, and that’s gold, Jerry, gold!

      • Emac2 says:

        A hitter.

        We have a ton of pitching in the system and the only problem we had this year was we were counting on it a year too early.

        The offense is getting old and there isn’t much in the system to replace what we lose over the next 14 months.

        I want a single high dollar ace and then grow the rest down on the farm and replace them when they can bring us a couple of number one picks.

        Wang is not a true number one starter and as such can be replaced too easily from a well stocked farm system to pay 15-20 mil a year.

        • Geno says:

          If your plan comes to fruition, I think you’ll find it much more difficult than you think to replace a legit #2 starter in the AL East.

          • Emac2 says:

            How much more than 15 mill will it be? 16? 17?

            I figure we have several kids who could, and 1 or 2 at least who likely will, end up as comparable pitchers to Wang.

        • UWS says:

          Let’s see where we are 3 years from now, shall we? I know we are all gaga over our prospects, but you have to be realistic, only a very small fraction of those kids will ever amount to anything, let alone borderline #1 starters that can be counted on for 200+ IP and 17-20 wins pretty regularly.

  14. Emac2 says:

    I think that when you consider signing someone like CC you have to consider the budget impact and roster impact for several years. If I link signing CC with not signing Wang when he is a free agent I can make the numbers work in what I see as the long term budget.

    • radnom says:

      1. You know there is a reply button? It makes it harder to follow what you’re saying when you reply to things that are further up the page.

      2. Wang for 15$ is a bargain imo as opposed to trying to sign someone to replace him (even if you have Sabbathia). Think about what 15$ buys you on the open market these days, it is certainly not a pitcher of Wang’s quality. Expect the Yankees to wrap him up long term before his arbitration years end, barring some sort of injury setback.

      • Emac2 says:

        I do. I hate it! Picking through an entire conversation everytime you are checking to see if there are new posts is nuts.

        Wang for 15 isn’t a bargin unless you compare it to some of the crappy deals out there. Wang for 15 is a terrible deal compared to a young stud for 1 mil.

        Our farm is too deep to have to pay 15 mil for a number 2 or 3 starter. I would rather pay a bit more and get a true number one.

        • steve (different one) says:

          ok. but let’s cross that bridge when we get there.

          right now, we can’t even see the bridge with a telescope.

        • Old Ranger says:

          Number 1 or 2 starters are not coming on the open market for less than 5-7 years at $20+mm per. Five to seven year deal for a pitcher is not good business sense (well maybe 5), pitchers do not age as well as position players do. If CMW stays healthy, he is a #1a type pitcher that eats lots of innings while keeping you in the game…one can’t ask for more than that. 27/09.

    • Slugger27 says:

      dude, hes 3 years away from FA… this shouldnt even be discussed right now

  15. Bo says:

    They got 80 mill coming off the payroll.

    If the last 6 yrs have taught them anything its that it takes top level SP to win

    If they don’t go out and get 2 top pitchers they are nuts

    And if the kids mature and become good, bonus

    • Joseph P. says:

      “If they don’t go out and get 2 top pitchers they are nuts”

      That should be amended to: “If they don’t go out and try to get 2 top starting pitchers they are nuts.”

      You can’t use mind control to make free agents sign with you. All you can do is wine and dine, and make the best contract offer.

      • Jamal G. says:

        You can’t use mind control to make free agents sign with you.

        Theo Epstein can.

      • A.D. says:

        Especially given that there are tops 5 “top pitchers” out there, and thats considering Dempster, CC, Burnett, Lowe, and Sheets. I don’t think of Lowe as a top pitcher, the others have been this past year when healthy, but I’d be surprised if Dempster leaves the Cubs, or if CC signs, so that leaves Burnett & Sheets, who both have injury baggage

        • Chris C. says:

          “I don’t think of Lowe as a top pitcher……”

          From the end of August to date, Derek Lowe has posted a 5-1 record with an 0.49 ERA for the Dodgers.
          He also has DESTROYED the Yankees in the postseason, which underlines the core of the Yankee problem over the past 7 years………..The Yankees no longer have any Derek Lowes!

          • “From the end of August to date, Derek Lowe has posted a 5-1 record with an 0.49 ERA for the Dodgers.”

            Derek Lowe’s six September and October starts for the Dodgers:
            Diamondbacks, Padres, Pirates, Giants, Giants, Cubs.

            Sidney Ponson could go 5-1 with a 0.49 ERA against those pansies.

            • Chris C. says:

              Derek Lowe’s six September and October starts for the Dodgers:
              Diamondbacks, Padres, Pirates, Giants, Giants, Cubs.

              I don’t care if those starts came against the Sisters of the Blind! They were big games that the Dodgers needed to win to make the playoffs. And the man came through when Boston needed him to be money as well.

              Did you see Andy Pettitte tossing those kinds of gems for the Yankees in August and September, when the Yankees still had a puncher’s chance? I mean c’mon, Pettitte blew backbreaking games to Texas, Kansas City and Seattle just as the Yankees tried to poise themselves to make a run!
              But he gets the “welcome back” mat rolled out?

              • Ben K. says:

                Clearly, you don’t read this site too often. No one’s really too keen on rolling out the Welcome Mat for Pettitte next year around here. The Yankees’ organizational philosophy is a different story.

                Meanwhile, let’s look at some facts. (Wow! What a concept.)

                First, Pettitte didn’t pitch poorly against the Mariners or Royals. In each case, he gave up 3 runs in 7 innings. If the Yanks can’t score more than three runs against the Mariners and the Royals, that isn’t Pettitte’s thought at all.

                And then we have the Rangers. They were 1st, 2nd and 1st, in BA, OBP and SLG respectively. They led the AL by runs per game by a whopping 0.30 runs per game over the next best team.

                Now on the flip side, the Padres and Giants were the two worst offensive teams in the NL, and the Pirates and Diamondbacks were in the bottom half of the league offensively. Only the Cubs were a good offensive team. This isn’t to take away from what Lowe did, but rather to point out that your blanket statements about pitching against the Royals, Mariners and Rangers were just wrong and that Lowe did indeed benefit from facing crappy teams.

        • Chris C. says:

          “I don’t think of Lowe as a top pitcher, the others have been this past year when healthy,”

          Yeah, Burnett is a “top pitcher”………against Yankees. Against everyone else, he posted a 4.30 era. Thrilling. And I’m sure he’ll improve once he puts on the pinstripes. All FA pitchers get better once they come to the Yankees. They never go into the tank under the spotlight.

      • “You can’t use mind control to make free agents sign with you. All you can do is wine and dine, and make the best contract offer.”

        River Avenue Hookers.

  16. Emac2 says:

    One top pitcher is plenty.

    CC, Joba, Wang, Hughes and the winner of a spring training competition is an excellent rotation.

    Starting the season with an excellent bullpen and improving the defense a bit will help more than an expensive 5th starter.

    • ceciguante says:

      but isn’t this the same strategy as last season, except plugging in CC and joba for moose and pettitte? meaning, you’re left with hughes at 4 (unproven, shows signs of not being ready), and some mystery #5 (also unproven). could go south real quick with just one injury. think, hughes and #5 bust, and joba or wang get hurt. not hard to envision.

  17. David Brown says:

    I am a very realistic Yankee Fan, and Tampa looks like they are building something special down there., and the top THREE Sox pitchers (Lester, Dice K & Beckett), are better than ANY STARTING pitcher the Yankees have in a big situation (Moose included). It is very difficult to win in the AL East (The Yankees and Mets had the SAME record, but the Mets went down to the final day before losing, and the Yankees had to play their best to stay in contention until the final week). That is also the reason why the White Sox and Twins had success (A very average division).
    As for “St Joseph Torre”. Joe Torre is a proven winner. Remember, he won manager of the year in BOTH leagues (And deserves it AGAIN this year). All of the “Torre Haters” will be eating crow if the Dodgers beat the Cubs. I hope the Dodgers win it all so Mattingly can get a ring.
    There are some positives such as the new Stadium, and young players with some promise like Jackson, Melancon, and Gardner, but more are needed. I stress the word MORE, because their is a real need to do better. Players are needed who can turn this ship around (Matt Holliday comes to mind).
    On Cole, I really stress the Cole and Bittle misfires, because Cashman & Oppenheimer failed to do their homework (Cole’s attitude and Bittle’s injury). Simply put, the Yankees LOST the 2008 draft battle to Boston (As well as Kansas City (Tim Melville in the FOURTH ROUND! Nuff said)). They also lost Internationally to the likes of the A’s & Reds (Not exactly Boston). Finally, they had No Plan B after Cole and Inoa….. It was so bad they did not spend $1,000,000 on ANY draft pick or International Signing (Even the Pirates surpassed that). That is unacceptable.
    This team is getting some financial breaks with the New Stadium, not paying luxury taxes, and getting ugly contracts off the books (See Pavano & Giambi), so they should start to turn things around, and get some players like Holliday here, and have better drafts (And NO MORE COLE misfires). There are no more excuses.

    • Geno says:

      Yeah! I expect nothing less than perfection from the Yanks! That’s sane reasoning, right? Right???

    • A.D. says:

      So several problems with what you say:

      Joba outdueled Beckett this year meaning that Beckett isn’t guarenteed better in a big situation.

      Yes you can go blah blah with Torre, however he managed to lead the Dodgers (who played under .500 for most of the year) to a division victory, in the worst division in baseball, and the 15th best record in the game. Which in reality is pathetic, if he did that with the Yankees, they would have finished 11 games behind the Sox, which would have the media, going all off season.

      Yeah the Sox look good going forward, they always do, but they have their own question marks…whats up with Buccholtz? Who’s going to pitch at the bottom of the rotation? what are we going to do about middle relief? How will Jason Bay perform in a full year? How much longer will Ortiz, Lowell, and JD Drew hold up? Will Dice-Ks walks come back to bite next year?

      With TB obvious they’re up and comers, but they still rely on a lot of kids, and as we’ve seen first hand, kids can digress some years, plus is Gabe Gross going to hit a walk-off home run (seemingly) every game again? Will BJ Upton bounce back, will Garza & Edwin Jackson have the same type of years.

      Lastly, I’ll give you the Cole signing, they need to know if they can sign their #1, there’s no way to know on Biddle, he pitched the whole year, they can’t make players get full testing leading up to the draft, and there was no reason to believe he was hurt. For the LA signing, all that means is they weren’t that interested, 16 years old kids are a crap shoot, and they didn’t see can’t miss super prospects, just cause everyone else is buying doesn’t mean its worth anything. Think about the best athletes when you were 16, theyre not necessarily the best at 18 or 21

      • Chris C. says:

        “Yes you can go blah blah with Torre, however he managed to lead the Dodgers (who played under .500 for most of the year) to a division victory, in the worst division in baseball, and the 15th best record in the game. Which in reality is pathetic…….”

        Yeah, real pathetic, genius! This was an organization in complete chaos from the front office, right into the cluhouse with a tremendous divide between the veteraans and rookies, and recently as LAST SEASON! Yet managed the Dodgers to a division win, while enduring injuries to DeWitt, Kent, Furcal, Garciaparra, Pierre, Jones, Penny, Kuo, Saito, Proctor, Brazobahn, Ozuna, and Park. Some of those guys were gone for over HALF A SEASON! And this wasn’t exactly a team that started out with a $209 mill payroll, to absorb those injuries. Torre had to dig into the farm much of the time to replace those guys. The players over there swear by him, and claim his paitience and calmness has carried over to the culture of the entire unit. And more than a few players have mentioned that Mattingly’s work with them has been instrumental in the 2nd half.
        It’s time to stop pretending that a manager’s demeaner has no impact on a ballclub. It absolutely does.
        Listen…..Torre is no Casey Stengal, but to insinuate that he’d be 11 games behind Boston is just foolish.
        What, he’s not a better manager than this moronic stress-case Girardi???? We’ll see if Girardi has the ability to phone and successfully recruit players of Mike Mussina’s ilk, like Torre did routinely when he was here!

        • UWS says:

          Quite frankly, injuries to Nomah, Pierre, and Jones can only be viewed as net positives for that club (well, maybe not Nomah).

        • A.D. says:

          There was this great divide when they were loosing, and there probably would have been again if they lost this year, you wouldn’t have heard praises of Torre if the Dodgers had lost the division.

          I’m not saying Torre is a scrub, or a bad manager, or shouldn’t have a job, just that this year, realistically, the Dodgers didn’t have some amazing season, but they did get to the playoffs due to the division they were in, which is true.

          Obv the talent is different on the two teams in many ways. What I should have clarified better was if he lead the Yanks to the Dodgers current record they would have been 11 games out, obv with the talent on the Yanks it could have been better.

          And recruit Mussina….lets be honest Big Stein’s checkbook & a chance to join a team that was winning the WS regularly recruited Moose, this isn’t college football, there isn’t big time recruiting.

          • Chris C. says:

            And recruit Mussina….lets be honest Big Stein’s checkbook & a chance to join a team that was winning the WS regularly recruited Moose, this isn’t college football, there isn’t big time recruiting.

            Mussina turned down less money from Texas, Boston, and at the last minute, Baltimore, to sign with the Yankees. When asked why, he stated, “I felt so comfortable with my phone conversations with Joe Torre, that I felt like he already was my manager.”

            You can knock Torre all you want. He’s in the postseason, and the Yankees are playing golf. End of story.

            • steve (different one) says:

              Mussina turned down less money from Texas, Boston, and at the last minute, Baltimore, to sign with the Yankees.

              wait, Torre got him to turn down LESS money for MORE money?

              amazing

    • Slugger27 says:

      first of all… “torre haters” …. this is a blog for yankees fans, how could there possibly be any torre haters? if anything, theres ppl that overly-obsess about him

      i dont know what the cole attitude thing means, him and his family decided it was in his best interest to go to college, i dont see anything wrong with that nor do i blame opp… he was the best talent available so take a chance on him

      matt holliday? he has glaring road splits, and it would take cano/hughes/melancon just to get the conversation started

      • UWS says:

        Not to mention that Holliday will be a free agent after this year. Yes, let’s trade everyone of any value for him, that’s a splendid idea!

    • Old Ranger says:

      Spinning again?
      You should (or do) work for a political party. Nice try though…3 strikes, and your out, so they say! 27/09.

    • Rick in Boston says:

      Spending money on players isn’t always the solution. The Yankees had a deal with Inoa and then he backed out of it. On principle, the Yankees didn’t continue to persue him. And throwing $1,000,000+ as any prospect doesn’t guarantee success. Maybe the Yanks are rolling the money into next year’s budget.

      And Saint Joe? He got into the playoffs in the weakest division in baseball. And you want Holliday, a guy with a back problem, who could leave as a free agent after next year, who had a sub-.900 OPS on the road?

      Are you sure you didn’t get off in the Bronx thinking it was Queens?

      • Chris C. says:

        “And Saint Joe? He got into the playoffs in the weakest division in baseball.”

        And the Yankees got into the playoffs in 2000 with 87 season wins, garnering the 10th best record in baseall. They had the worst division winning record in the sport, and would have missed the playoffs if they were in the AL Central or AL West.
        And here’s the funny thing……….I never heard ONE YAnkee fan talk about how cheap that trip to the postseason felt.

        You wanna throw that championship back? Didn’t think so.

        • Ben K. says:

          Why are you so antagonistic towards everyone else here? Please read our Commenter Guidelines and change your tone accordingly.

        • Chris C. says:

          “And Saint Joe? He got into the playoffs in the weakest division in baseball.”

          Whoa, wait a minute! This statement actually came from a Red Sox fan, which makes it even funnier! Over the past 15 or so years, the Red Sox have won the division only ONCE. Last year. So all of their postseason entrances before 2007 came as a result of Selig’s Wild Card gift. That means no 2004 championship without it. And you know what? Probably no 2007 championship either, because Red Sox ownership may have blown the team up before then due to the long playoff drought.

          So let’s not be talking about other teams who benefit from the major league baseball landscape.

        • A.D. says:

          Thats partly skewed because the Yanks lost 15 of their last 18 in Sept to kinda back in, obv they still lost the games, but one would think partly was taking the pedal off, but honestly I don’t remember the feel.

          And I believe there was some press on the Yankees backing in easily to the playoffs, especially with some of their recent seasons at the time

          • Chris C. says:

            And I believe there was some press on the Yankees backing in easily to the playoffs, especially with some of their recent seasons at the time

            Yeah, they backed in because everyone else in the division stunk that year. But don’t tell me they took their foot off the gas pedal with 18 games left. They only won the division by two games, so how is that even possible?

  18. David Brown says:

    No one is looking for perfection, this is not church. I think however, the Steinbrenner’s & the fans deserve BETTER than THIRD PLACE for the $208,000,000 they spent on the players.
    The fans have a right to expect Rodriguez to do better than hit into 11 DOUBLE PLAYS in August, while he gets paid $27,000,000. And the term “Regressed” is very fair and REASONABLE (I did not USE terms like “Failed” or compared him to Pavano to describe his ON THE FIELD PERFORMANCE, which by his own admission was unacceptable). One thing that I found very interesting is that Arod was parked on the bench for the final week of the season (Except for the Mussina games), I wonder why that was? Does anyone have that answer?

    • Slugger27 says:

      yes technically he “regressed” from his absurb/ridiculous/inhuman/ungodly career year in 2007… but he still hit .300/.390/.570 and was 2nd in the AL in homers i believe despite missing 3 weeks, not to mention stole 18 bases and played the best infield defense on the team (i realize not saying too much)

      im guessing he was parked on the bench to get rest and give the kids a chance to perform ((jeter sat too)) …. but what i KNOW is that the reason he sat on the bench wasnt cuz girardi shared ur line of thinking in that arod had a poor year and hes worried about his spot on the team

      seriously man just go to lohud

    • Old Ranger says:

      Strike thr….oh hell, why bother!

  19. steve (different one) says:

    Remember, he won manager of the year in BOTH leagues.

    except this isn’t true.

    and it’s probably one of the smarter things you said.

  20. pat says:

    dave here you go espousing the same crap that got you run out of the last place you were preaching . Only difference here is people are much meaner. Ill take that joba chamberlain guy as a big game pitcher. First start in boston he out duels josh beckett for 8 innings. I also hate to break it to you but players get physicals AFTER THEY’RE DRAFTED NOT BEFORE they had no way of knowing about bittles shoulder problems. And please you dont know shit aboit the IFA market none of us do. Can you objectively tell me the difference between yourman rodriguez and erickson lianora? we know hardly anything about these kids thats what professional scouts are for. And for good measure the sox didnt sign their best pick either.

  21. David Brown says:

    What bothered me most about the draft and International Signings is NOT Cole, Inoa, and Bittle per se, but the fact they did not have alternatives. For example the Pirates decided NOT to sign Tanner Scheppers. Was it injury, money or both? I do not know. But instead of chucking it away as a loss, they signed Miller to make up for the loss. The Yankees had other options (Like Dwyer) and failed to take advantage of them.
    As for Boston, they are hurt by Bucholtz, but they have so much quality they can offset it. That is where the Yankees need to be. If IPK fails, or Hughes is injured, big deal we can pencil in someone else.
    When the Yankees were at their best, one guy picked up the other. Bernie, Paulie, Tino, Jeter, etc. They USUALLY HAD OTHER OPTIONS then the mega-star (Like Arod), who if he failed, no one else came through.
    That is what they have to get back to both on the field and in the draft. The ability to offset mistakes.

    • steve (different one) says:

      ok!

    • Slugger27 says:

      well yes david, i think we can all agree they need to get back to the days of having really good players at just about every position and winning championships every year…… and for the record, your point is that although boston doled out hundreds of millions to sign manny, schilling, dice-k, damon and trade for beckett ((not to mention the failed signings of crisp, lugo, clement, foulke)) we should try to avoid signing or acquiring star players?

    • A.D. says:

      As people have pointed out before, the Yanks expected White, Marquez, Horne, Karstens, Rasner and Joba to all be able to come up and make a spot start, or pitch as a 5th starter if Hughes, IPK , others had issues.

      Who would have guessed that all of those guys got hurt, and white imploded.

      The sox had to make a waiver line deal due to lack of depth in the starting rotation

      • Exactly. Let me restate it again.

        Of the top 14 starting pitchers in our organization, only 3 made it through the entire season unhurt. THREE. Of those three, two of them suck balls (Rasner and Igawa). It got so bad that we had to turn to Sidney Ponson in desperation.

        There’s bad luck, and there’s rearry shiddy ruck. We got the latter. People are getting upset at Cashman for not posessing a time machine.

  22. Nady Nation says:

    I know everyone hates bringing this up, but I was thinking about it this morning. For everyone in favor of holding onto Hughes and avoiding the Johan deal, what results would you say you’re looking for out of Phil in order to justify not doing the trade? I know that’s hard to quantify in exact stats, but what type of pitcher are you hoping (realistically) for Hughes to be? Middle of the rotation? Frontline ace? Assuming, for argument’s sake, that Johan averages 15-17 wins and a 3.5 ERA over the course of his contract, what would it take for Phil to pull his weight in terms of the non-trade? Basically, when would it be fair to evaluate the (non)move as being a good or bad one? End of Johan’s contract? End of Hughes’ career? I thought this was interesting

    • steve (different one) says:

      i think it depends what they do with that $140M and how Hughes’ career unfolds.

      if they sign Sabathia for $140M and Hughes is a #3 starter for the next 5 years, it will be hard to argue that they aren’t better overall even if Hughes isn’t as good as Santana.

      if Hughes is a #2 starter, and they use the money to sign Burnett and say, Burrell, that could also be considered a “success”.

      or if they sign Sabathia and use Hughes to trade for a young bat??

      tough to say. good question though.

      • JeffG says:

        Or how about if Sabathia doesn’t end up comming to NY and we lost our best chance to have a lefty ace?

        In any case, I have always viewed the idea of wanting to miss out on Santana for “saving the big three” as flawed thinking. I hope Hughes comes through and Kennedy too but so far the only thing that was big about those two is the BIG ZERO they had in the win column.

        • Chris C. says:

          “In any case, I have always viewed the idea of wanting to miss out on Santana for “saving the big three” as flawed thinking”

          In the 1980′s, the Yankees felt that way too. Look where it got them then? You have to realize that the non-trade occured for the good of the franchise down the road, and was not supposed to pay dividends this season. Santana already has alot of mileage on his arm. In 2-3 years, when Santana is on the downside of his career and is a mid-rotation guy, and Hughes is 25 years old, then we’ll talk about what a mistake it was.

  23. 1996 Yankee Alumni Society says:

    Aside from the glaring starting pitching pitching issues does anyone believe one of the Yanks main problems for 2009 (as it was in 2008) is team “chemistry” – or at least cohesion? Maybe friendship – or lack thereof – can affect this – whether it’s MLB or a high school basketball team. I’m not saying Alex The Great & Jeter have to go to Scores together after every game but there seems to be a definite lack of “We Play Today, We Win Today – Das It” spirit that permeated the rosters responsible for the recent WS runs.

    • “there seems to be a definite lack of “We Play Today, We Win Today – Das It” spirit that permeated the rosters responsible for the recent WS runs.”

      There’s also a definite lack of 4 good-to-great starting pitchers and a lineup with 7 or 8 good-to-great hitters in it. THAT’S the reason the Yankees won 4 titles in 5 years, not some nebulous “clubhouse spirit” or any other sportwriter bunk.

      People use the fact that the 96′-00′ Yankees had no Cy Young winners or MVP winners to try and romanticize the team as being some gang of scrappy underachievers who believed in each other and won because they were a team, but the reality is we were really, really, really talented and really deep and had a talent edge over the rest of baseball so significant that we’ll probably never be able to get back to that level of advantage again, no matter how smart we are or how many good decisions we make.

      • 1996 Yankee Alumni Society says:

        Good points. Running Key, Cone, Pettitte and Cone, Pettitte, Hernandez, Wells/Clemens out there to the mound was a Godsend that won’t be repeated in our lifetimes.

      • ceciguante says:

        that wasn’t true about the 1996 team. those guys were underdogs in the WS, but the enthusiasm was incredible even when down 0-2 to a legendary braves starting rotation. i agree with the original comment that this team lacks a bit of that chemistry, that contagious winning feel. it’s not only about having a roster full of all stars.

        • Chris C. says:

          “that wasn’t true about the 1996 team. those guys were underdogs in the WS, but the enthusiasm was incredible even when down 0-2 to a legendary braves starting rotation.”

          Yeah, the Yankees posted a better record that year than Atlanta, yet they were “underdogs” in the WS. How is that even possible? C’mon dude, that was the kool-aid that Torre fed his players to get them motivated. Doesn’t mean you have to buy it.

        • From BR.com:

          The 1996 Yankees had players who have gone to a combined 46 All-Star games in their careers. The 1996 Indians were second, with 41. The Orioles were the only other major league team to break 30.

          Think about that. The 1996 Yankees team had players that cumulatively made 15 more appearances in the All Star Game over the course of their various careers than (almost) all the other teams in the league.

          ERA+
          David Cone 174
          Andy Pettitte 129
          Jimmy Key 107
          Kenny Rogers 100
          Dwight Gooden 100
          John Wetteland 177
          Mo Rivera 239
          Jeff Nelson 115
          Bob Wickman 107
          David Weathers 213

          OPS+
          Bernie Williams 131
          Paul O’Neill 123
          Tino Martinez 108
          Mariano Duncan 112
          Derek Jeter 101
          Darryl Strawberry 112
          Tim Raines 114
          Cecil Fielder 108
          Wade Boggs 98
          Joe Girardi 82 (catcher)
          Jim Leyritz 86 (catcher)
          Ruben Rivera 107

          That’s not a team of gutty, scrappy, underdog gritbearders who played plucky baseball and won because of their amazing team spirit. That’s a team of incredibly, incredibly talented and well-lauded superstar ballplayers.

          That’s a team where a former Cy Young winner who was the best pitcher on the planet as a teenage phenom is no more than the FIFTH best starter. A team with 5 legit lights-out relief aces. A team with no holes in the batting order, NONE. When the only hitter in your lineup who’s not at least league average is the catcher, and he’s producing at TWICE the rate of 2008 Jose Molina (oh, and he’s also a defensive whiz), that’s a lineup that can score runs on anybody.

          • Chris C. says:

            “The 1996 Yankees had players who have gone to a combined 46 All-Star games in their careers.”

            LMAO. Yeah, but those guys weren’t the centerpieces on the team. They were waaaay past their prime.
            Tim Raines, Gooden, Fielder, Strawberry, and Boggs? How many years did those guys have left after their stint with the Yankees. This was their last stop, basically!

            Why are you trying to mislead people with such crap??

          • Chris C. says:

            “A team with no holes in the batting order, NONE.”

            The 1996 Yankee batting order was:

            Boggs (38 years old)
            Jeter (rookie)
            O’Neill (1 all-star appearence)
            Williams (ZERO AS appearences)
            Martinez (Zero AS appearences)
            Raines (37 and chubby)
            Davis (36, way past his prime)
            Girardi (defense only)
            Duncan (mediocre)

            Bench: Strawberry, Aldrette, Fielder, Hayes)
            All old and past their primes.

            Yeah, sure. No holes.

            • steve (different one) says:

              are you a moron?

              why are you ignoring the numbers he posted?

              these:

              OPS+
              Bernie Williams 131
              Paul O’Neill 123
              Tino Martinez 108
              Mariano Duncan 112
              Derek Jeter 101
              Darryl Strawberry 112
              Tim Raines 114
              Cecil Fielder 108
              Wade Boggs 98
              Joe Girardi 82 (catcher)
              Jim Leyritz 86 (catcher)
              Ruben Rivera 107

              who cares if Bernie and Tino had “ZERO All-Star” appearances? that makes them “holes”?

              WTF are you even talking about?

            • B says:

              Paul O’neil was an All-star in ’91, ’94, and ’95 before the 96 season!

            • B says:

              and tino martinez was in the all-star game the year before. Bernie wasn’t in the all-star game until ’97.

          • Chris C. says:

            “That’s a team where a former Cy Young winner who was the best pitcher on the planet as a teenage phenom is no more than the FIFTH best starter.”

            How shocking! I can’t believe a teenage phenom who threw a ton of pitches, while abusing cocaine and alcohol over the next 10 years of his life, would actually regress to the point of being a #5 pitcher at the age of 32! It’s unheard of !

            • Your counterarguments to my statement are weaker than tissuepaper. Fact remains, the 1996 Yankee teams were loaded. Show me what other ’96 teams could go as deep as they could with talented players Yes, Strawberry and Fielder were old as shit. They were also still damn good players, as evidenced by the fact that they were better than more than half the league offensively.

              Sure, Gooden was a cokehead and a shell of himself. He was still talented enough to be league average as a 5th starter. You know how many other teams in baseball in 1996 had 5 starting pitchers all with ERA+’s over 100? None. You know how many other teams had lineups with all 9 starters OPS+ing over 82? Maybe one or two, I doubt it though. How may teams had both of those things? None.

              Seriously. Go look it up, and then come back and apologize to us. Or better yet, don’t look it up, just continue to try and shoehorn the bullshit that you believe in into the fairytale box that you keep of the alternate universe of baseball logic where we’re the constant plucky underdog that nobody believed in.

  24. David Brown says:

    Pat, I agree with you about Joba, he has a ton of potential, and the stomach to pitch here. (I can only go by the numbers and the history of the Sox Trio, to favor them). Nor do I claim to know anything about IFA’s (I even admit to knowing very little about the draft (However, I did get LASSITER’s SIGNING RIGHT )). The people who are supposed to know (such as SCOUTS and Cashman) have to start doing better (Cashman HIMSELF alluded to this with Japan).
    The thing I am familiar with is SALES (Which I do for a living (Mortgage Banking)), and a primary part of sales is research and cultivating relationships (That worked with Lassiter and Marshall). They need to do more of that, and find guys who REALLY WANT to be here (Instead of having to having to bribe guys ( Like a Sabathia) who from everything I hear does not want to play in New York). Is there anything WRONG with Sabathia? No not at all, some guys are not made for NY (Nolan Ryan comes to mind). But some prosper here when failure was predicted (See Paul O’Neill), and a PRIMARY job of the GM and the scouting system is find as many players as possible who fit that characteristic. Not every player can be Derek Jeter (And making mistakes due to a misjudging of talent is understandable). But paying and (or) drafting people who really don’t want to be here is very different. And that has been my objection to Cashman etc.

  25. B says:

    I said it once before and I’ll say it again. IPK should have been traded when his value was high. I hope never to see him again on the mlb roster. He’ll be lucky if he makes it as a #5 starter! Shame on all of you who were so high on him! It should have been save the big 2(Joba/Hughes) and not the big 3. IPK isn’t worth a bag of peanuts in my book.

    Heres to keeping him off the mlb roster!

  26. ko says:

    Its interesting reading all the excuses people make for Cashman’s blunders. He screwed up. Hopefully, he’ll learn from his mistakes for the Yankees sake. Moving forward, Cashman needs to acquire two top starters this winter to put the Yankees back to the top. Meanwhile Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, etc. can be worked in gradually as they gain the ability to get big league hitters out. If you’re the Royals or the Nationals, you can afford to throw the youngsters in and let them sink or swim. If you expect to be a perennial contender you don’t have that luxury.

  27. [...] full hot stove mode. The Yankees had been home for over a month, and we’d already looked at what went wrong and what went right in the 2008 season. October was a time of reflection instead of excitement, so [...]

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